KHAN Academy: The future of education?

[Bennyboy]

60 Minutes tonight did a story about a new way to educte everyone. I see it as the way to go and the sooner we can move education into this model the better. I d see some things with the fundies about this, but that is in everything.

Kids get everything shoved at them now so fast and school, as I remember it was anything but that. This sounds like the way to go.


http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7401696n&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CBSNewsPCAnswer+(PC+Answer%3A+CBSNews.com)

Self paced learning proves a hit at Los Altos school

http://www.lasdschools.org/District/Department/26-Academics/3671-Khan-Academy.html

[MichiganVote]

1. Not likely. Too many students in the US.

[NYC_SKP]

2. We use it, we're flipping our classrooms.

Go home for your lecture, come to school to do your homework (applications) where you can get help and work with others.

Classical lecture style teacher-centered education is dead.

Where I work, it's dead, in other places it's dying a slow death.

[Paulie]

3. How's it working?

How's the stress on you and the students? Effective?

[NYC_SKP]

6. At first, some students thought it was weird.

It took about a month or so before everyone was on board and loving it.

I think they had to feel it out and compare it to other classes and past classes before they realized that they were getting a lot more help.

And more concepts are covered more deeply in less time, which is very cool.

I posted a link in a different reply, worth watching the short video: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=413645

[joshcryer]

27. IMO it also kills the "worker-boss" hierarchy.

Instead of students coming to school to be effectively bossed, they learn at home on their own, and the teachers are their equals or at the minimum have a similar level of mind-share.

[NYC_SKP]

70. Largely true, I think, and an important feature.

traditional educational models are mostly about conformity and control.

This new approach turns that on it's head.

[joshcryer]

75. Hole in the Wall

To test his ideas, Mitra 13 months ago launched something he calls "the hole in the wall experiment." He took a PC connected to a high-speed data connection and imbedded it in a concrete wall next to NIIT's headquarters in the south end of New Delhi. The wall separates the company's grounds from a garbage-strewn empty lot used by the poor as a public bathroom. Mitra simply left the computer on, connected to the Internet, and allowed any passerby to play with it. He monitored activity on the PC using a remote computer and a video camera mounted in a nearby tree.

What he discovered was that the most avid users of the machine were ghetto kids aged 6 to 12, most of whom have only the most rudimentary education and little knowledge of English. Yet within days, the kids had taught themselves to draw on the computer and to browse the Net. Some of the other things they learned, Mitra says, astonished him.

...

A: Well, I tried another experiment. I went to a middle-class school and chose some ninth graders, two girls and two boys. I called their physics teacher in and asked him, "What are you going to teach these children next year at this time?" He mentioned viscosity. I asked him to write down five possible exam questions on the subject. I then took the four children and said, "Look here guys. I have a little problem for you." They read the questions and said they didn't understand them, it was Greek to them. So I said, "Here's a terminal. I'll give you two hours to find the answers."

Then I did my usual thing: I closed the door and went off somewhere else.

http://www.greenstar.org/butterflies/Hole-in-the-Wall.htm

Click the link to read what happens next. We are becoming part of our technology. Slide rules are dead!

[geardaddy]

83. We studied that project in class.

Quite amazing. Did you see the TED talk on that?

[NYC_SKP]

95. "They don't know everything about this subject or everything I would teach them"

Interesting story, thanks! Regarding that part of the excerpt:

They answered all five questions in two hours. The physics teacher checked the answers, and they were correct. That, of itself, doesn't mean much. But I said to him, "Talk to the children and find out if they really learned something about this subject." So he spent half an hour talking to them. He came out and said, "They don't know everything about this subject or everything I would teach them. But they do know one hell of a lot about it. And they know a couple of things about it I didn't know."

I find it interesting that teachers think that what they cover, students will probably learn (if they're listening, if they're doing "their" part).

I'll be those kids learned more in two hours than they would have in all of the time the teacher spent on viscosity because they did it their way, because they wanted to, and at their pace, and they (not a teacher) were in control.

[geardaddy]

58. Agree. Flipping classrooms is the way to go.

That's how my graduate classes are going. Do reading at home, watch online video etc. Work on projects in class with classmates.

[DevonRex]

63. That makes the most sense to me.

Especially with math and science. What good does it do anyone to do homework incorrectly for hours at home?

[NYC_SKP]

4. K/R and adding a link: "Why I Flipped My Classroom"

This math teacher does a good job explaining in layperson's terms how flipping works:

:kick:

[EFerrari]

13. How do you know she is a math teacher?

Who produces these videos, do you know?

[NYC_SKP]

17. She said, "I've been teaching math for the past five years"

Right at the beginning of the video.

Who produces the videos? North Carolina State University School of Education might have a hand in them: http://www.fi.ncsu.edu/project/fizz/

Are you suspect of the producers or of the movement?

[EFerrari]

26. The Friday Institute and education deform:

The Friday Institute for Educational Innovation, located on NC State’s Centennial Campus, played a major role in the proposal development of North Carolina’s Race to the Top proposal, including coordinating the overall process.

http://www.seopressreleases.com/friday-institute-centennial-campus-takes-lead-role-race-top-proposal-north-carolina/12199

The thing is, I've never met a teacher who spent 90% of their time delivering content, below the college level anyway. And of course, small group work isn't a new idea. But the real corporate giveaway was when she talked about students coming "pre-loaded" as if kids are blank drives.

This isn't a movement, it's a marketing strategy.

[NYC_SKP]

44. Well we use the principle of flipping yet have never been approached for marketing.

That it's connected to Gates doesn't make it necessarily bad.

If they're using it to bad ends, that's sad, but all I care about is the success kids see.

And for kids for whom it doesn't work we still have tutoring time.

Actually, we have MORE tutoring time because the teachers are freed up from lecturing to be able to work individually with students.

It sounds crazy, but it works.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. See my comment below

Many teachers went gaga when we first discovered the Khan Academy videos. And I'll admit they're impressive, flashy, colorful, and they hold kids' attention.

Then we started finding errors. I was part of a team that spent several weeks last summer integrating the Khan videos into our curriculum. We found way too many errors to feel comfortable recommending that any teacher use these videos. Most are at upper levels but several are at elementary levels.

Call me old fashioned, but accuracy still trumps flashy in my book.

[Zalatix]

28. I for one suspect all systems. I only trust results.

Show me the end results of this system over the period of 13 (k-12) years, and then we'll know how it works out.

[tammywammy]

19. Her name is Katie Gimbar

She has a youtube channel and a quick Google reveals:

http://www.fi.ncsu.edu/project/fizz/pd/flippingtheclassroom/examples/gimbar

Katie Gimbar teaches Algebra 1 and Math 8 at Durant Road Middle School in Raleigh, NC. She is a graduate of the College of Education at NC State and has been "flipping" her classroom since January, 2011. To learn more about her method of flipping or to watch her videos visit The Friday Institute's FIZZ page:

[NYC_SKP]

21. She rocks. I think a lot of people think computers are going to put teachers out of work.

Or something.

Or that Bill Gates is going to close schools, or I don't know what.

The truth is that this flipping thing works well. We use it.

[EFerrari]

30. That's the Friday Institute's channel. n/t

[tammywammy]

46. So?

Do you think it's a lie that she teaches algebra and math at a middle school? You could call the middle school if you want more confirmation, since they say the name and city it shouldn't be hard for you to find it.

Edited to add: her name plus Durant Road Middle School shows she was teacher of the year.
http://durantroadms.wcpss.net/web/blog/archives/344

[EFerrari]

53. So you said it was her channel and it isn't.

Good grief.

[Sancho]

16. This is not new...

similar strategies with different names have been taught for decades. "Flipping" doesn't address the major issues facing many teachers today.

[NYC_SKP]

18. Where do you teach, what kind of population of students do you serve?

What major issues are you talking about?

[dogknob]

22. I'm waiting for a response here... n/t

[EFerrari]

29. Yes, my grammar school teachers were doing small group work in the early 60s.

It isn't new, just repackaged. The Friday Institute seems to get about 90% of its funding from the private sector, which isn't surprising.

"Cross sector collaboration among education, government and private industry has been a cornerstone of the Friday Institute since its inception. We raised $10 million in private donations from corporations and individuals for the Friday Institute building and garnered more than $10.5 million for research projects before the building opened, and we secured an annual $1.9 million operations budget from the N.C. state legislature."

http://www.fi.ncsu.edu/about/

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. Amen

[Sienna86]

5. Love Khan Academy

What a terrific teacher.

My personal opinion: A lot of elementary and junior high teachers are not competent or comfortable with math. They don't get it, so how can they teach it? Khan Academy helps the kids fill in the gaps. And sometimes the gaps are big.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

7. I've been learning at Khan

I just finished Beginnings of Life : Life and photosynthesis start to thrive in the Archean Eon
http://www.khanacademy.org/science/cosmology-and-astronomy/v/beginnings-of-life

educational and definitely not boring

[Pirate Smile]

8. That was a great segment on 60 Minutes. I made all of my kids come down and watch it so they

could use it themselves.

[Joanie Baloney]

38. I agree

I'm pretty jaded about most "best new thing" ideas, but this one made so much sense that it gave me a real spark of hope for our education system. I hope the classroom aspect of it (not just the lessons on the internet) becomes a reality in ALL of our schools, not just higher income demographic areas as highlighted in the segment on 60 minutes. I didn't see one downside to it!



-JB

[napoleon_in_rags]

9. I just checked it out. LOVE it.

The huge map is wonderful. It really shows the prerequisites for each topic, down to the finest level.
http://www.khanacademy.org/exercisedashboard
They take you down to pre-arithmetic all the way through calculus to differential equations, matrices etc. No abstact algebra yet, but what an accomplishment as is.

[Honeycombe8]

10. I saw that. It was pretty exciting and made so much sense. Like most innovations,

I wondered why this hadn't been tried before.

It lets the faster kids proceed at a pace they find challenging, but lets the slower kids proceed at a pace where they really learn as they go along, and all the kids get assistance at their own level, meeting what they need assistance with.

As teachers are having to handle larger classrooms, this lets them manage their time more efficiently, looks like. And the kids seemed to be really more interested, than listening to the teacher lecture at the front of the class.

But of course...the kids have to have computers, and not all kids/schools do.

[liskddksil]

11. I think any technology in Education should be used extremely sparingly and only

Last edited Mon Mar 12, 2012, 11:09 AM - Edit history (1)

as a supplement, not a replacement of a traditional classroom. I do see the benefits of pre-learning, particularly for Math and Science classes. Yet that strategy can be effective by reading through a book, as opposed to watching a video. Ultimately students learn best in small classrooms, from a real teacher and through collabaration and discussion from classmates. An education system that relies on students staring at computer screens is scary to me, when research suggests that the amount of time students (and adults) are already spending looking at and relying on their smartphones, ipads, etc. is actually making them dumber, and unable to think critically and problem-solve.

Khan is supported by Bill Gates, who supports the worst of the ed-reformers, such as Michelle Rhee, who are intent on privatizing public schools, and turning our students into standardized test-taking drones. As such, I do not trust their proponents to limit their use. We've already seen in Idaho, a virtual course requirement for students, simply as a means for cost-cutting.

[NYC_SKP]

43. Like pencils, and overhead projectors, they're fucking EVIL! Technology is EVIL!

I'm particularly wary of ELMOs!

[arely staircase]

51. i suspect non-digital dead tree textbooks will be completely gone

from classrooms before i retire - in 15 years. i also think this is a wonderful tool for math teachers.

[nanabugg]

12. I love it!! but it proves one thing. You can't even give education away in this country.

Charge thousands of dollars, though, and many will pay for inferior teaching.

[exboyfil]

24. $130,000

That number should be written on every whiteboard at the start of every class from 7th-12th grade. That is the average cost of 13 years of public school education. That is more than I paid for my house. Somehow the kids need to understand that it is their best shot at a middle class life.

Virtual education has its place, and it should be available to students who want to go that direction. My daughters have had some virtual/correspondence classes, and they have been more vigorous than the public school version. If you finish one of these classes, you are least as equipped as the average student and probably more than most. I guess it would depend on the program. The one thing I noticed about the classes is that my kids were not spoon fed. They learned to actually use (and be frustrated by their textbooks). Many kids don't even open their textbooks. My daughters can find errors and problems with their textbooks.

[arely staircase]

14. i saw the story and it looks awesome

i don't teach math but i forwarded the link to my partner teacher who does. the coolest part is that it allows the teacher to monitor, in detail, the progress of each student and then decide who needs individual or small group instruction in certain areas - instead of slowing down the whole class to reteach stuff only some kids are having problems with.

[msongs]

15. the only thing that matters are standardized test scores and corporate profits ya know nt

[arely staircase]

20. ugh, we are on spring break then have one last week of prep

for our writing portion of the STARR test. it drives me nuts. this khan program does look cool, though. anything that helps us tailor our lessons to, and track the progress, of individual kids is good.i use all kinds of free stuff from the internet, from videos on the water cycle to random quiz generators for spanish verb conjugations. the only thing i don't like about the khan stuff is it is all math right now - at least according to the 60 minutes program.

[EFerrari]

31. I would like to see how successful it is on different demographics. n/t

[arely staircase]

59. its price is what would make it attractive to the demographic(s) at my school

roughly 63 percent hispanic; most of the rest are poor, rural whites. just about everyone qualifies for free or reduced meals. i have 18 students in my homeroom and i teach another group of 20 in the afternoon; my kids pretty much match the campus demographics - except that i have a small handful of higher (relatively speaking) income whites and blacks who chose to send their kids there for the dual language program. i have (in addition to my own) four computers in the classroom. i am always looking for free stuff on he internet. i got some of the white kids to finally start learning their spanish verb conjugations when i found a website that generates sentences and the kids have to type in the correct form of the verb.

so those are the only demographics i have ever taught. there are two elementary schools in the district that are fairly segregated - one that is almost all rich white kids and the other which is almost all poor black kids. these two schools always get priority when it comes to new technology. mainly because those two demographic groups (rich whites and poor blacks) control the school board, there isn't a single hispanic in the bunch. don't ge me wrong, i am glad that the black kids and parents have people from their community to represent them on the board, i just wish we did too. btw, there are other elementary schools here that are fully integrated (with each group representing roughly a thrid of the student body). i don't want to give the impression that each group is relegated to its own campus, only that there are three campuses where one of the three major ethnic groups is extremely over represented.

[joshcryer]

25. I think this is a move toward the end of institutionalized education.

Which I do consider a good thing.

[Starry Messenger]

32. How does this work for students that don't have internet at home?

The flipping model requires that students watch lectures at home. Many communities have families without this amenity. Is there a grant that installs and pays for internet at the child's home? And what about homeless children?

How does this system handle electives? I teach art. You don't learn sculpture from a video.

[EFerrari]

33. This system would have worked great for me.

Neither of my kids could have used it as they don't process info well that way.

[Starry Messenger]

35. For me it would depend on the subject.

I went to a private elementary for six years that had an independent study packet model. I did great at subjects I liked and nearly failed math and sciences. I've often suspected that I had dyscalculia that went undetected. Still, my family was prosperous enough that if the school required home internet service, it would have happened. However, I was just reading an article today about a teacher that reported that several of her students don't even have a family landline to call home to parents. Doesn't sound like internet at home would be easily available.

[EFerrari]

36. I also wonder about kids spending yet another chunk of time alone with a machine

and how that impacts relational ability/capacity down the road.

[NYC_SKP]

40. The alternative, 35 kids sharing one teacher droning on in a monologue lecture...

Without the ability to pause and replay what the teacher just said.

...then go home to do homework they didn't understand, without any help, to return to school frustrated to hear the lecture again or to compete with 34 kids who also want the undivided attention of the teacher.

What don't you get about this?

I know you aren't a teacher but couldn't you ask one? I know at least 100 in SFUSD alone.

Also, watch the video for an explanation, the one that says she's been teaching math for five years.

It really explains it well, I think.

[EFerrari]

52. I did watch that video which seems to be corporate crap.

I have been a teacher and my family is full of teachers. Maybe you should find a teacher and have them explain why that video is a simplistic repackaging of an old idea. If you know 100 teachers, that shouldn't be too hard to do.

[NYC_SKP]

57. Sorry, I don't agree. Hate the video if you wish, but the teacher centered lecture model is dead.

Kids don't pay attention past the first 90 seconds of teachers talking.

Yet bad teachers keep talking and think it's the kids' job to pay attention and fuck 'em if they don't.

Well I say fuck that shit, work the way the kids need to work which is to let them work together, get the fuck out of the way and facilitate, and use textbooks only as a last resort.

The actual, real-life, working in the trenches with at-risk, mixed-ability, real live breathing living students RIGHT NOW all agree with me.

So, pick a public school in San Francisco. Chances are pretty good that I've met a teacher who works or has worked there.

We're never going to agree on this, but it doesn't change the fact that teacher-centered lecture style is dead and more success will be had by what you call "corporate crap" because you just don't know any better.

[EFerrari]

60. Delete dupe.

[EFerrari]

61. You keep repeating, over and over, that the lecture "style" is dead

as if that format is the only other option and as if repeating it makes it more true.

Yes, recycling old ideas and presenting them as new and as your own is corporate crap.

And you not only have been approached by a marketing strategy, you are engaged in it when you uncritically post video ads whose provenance isn't even known to you.

But an education expert such as yourself doesn't need someone like me to point any of those little matters out to you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. What do you teach?

I don't think you've ever said. At least I haven't seen you post that.

[NYC_SKP]

71. When I was a teacher, I taught science and math, mostly, then integrated thematic instruction, then

...the last four years were self-contained all day long with kids doing largely thematic environmental studies.

Thematic, all day, one teacher, 24 boys aged 14 through 18, all subjects, all ability levels, those last four years.

Now I train teachers and coordinate public school academy programs, but also interact with students every day that I'm not out of town or out of state.

Career connections are important, so is drawing and music and taking stuff apart and fun!

[LooseWilly]

78. In my experience, kids don't pay attention "past 90 seconds" mostly because other kids are talking..

and when you have an overcrowded classroom and the kids are shoehorned in ... then they start talking (or arguing) among themselves... and then other kids turn their attention to that... and soon the class is bordering on anarchy.

You can try to blame it on "the teacher centered lecture model" being dead... I think it would be more accurate to say that "the teacher centered lecture model" is incompatible with class sizes over 35... and therefore incompatible with underfunding of schools.

It would be more honest, I think, if you were to just admit from the start that your aims are to find "solutions" to educating kids without the bother of investing in reasonable remuneration for those doing the teaching of ever-increasing numbers of children.

Lecturing a class of 20-25 is very effective. Beyond that size, lecturing becomes more and more difficult.

I don't see any evidence that letting the kids work together will somehow be more efficient at teaching.

Having kids watch videos at home, and then "concentrating teacher resources" on those still having difficulties isn't a "revolutionary method for teaching"... it's a means to take the responsibility for teaching the students who can learn from a YouTube video off the hands of the teachers, and leaving the teachers to try to concentrate on those kids who actually need instruction on a topic to learn.

Is this more efficient? Probably. Is it liable to lead to students who can "learn to the test" themselves, without the need of a teacher, completely losing access to whatever "not test required" knowledge that a teacher might be able to share/impart?— probably.

As the programs progress though, I wonder... I'm sure the teachers will be able to help the students who run into difficulties at different points in the lessons... or even on different lessons depending on how different their relative rates of progression are... what I wonder though, is, what will prevent those having difficulties from becoming distracted, disruptively disengaged, and thereby exponentially distracting to their neighbors— while the teacher is helping another student? (especially if the other student is working on a completely different lesson)

I was in a class run on the same model, in analog, back in 79-80 (it's really NOT a revolutionary new model of teaching)... and I can assure everyone that the classroom was relative bedlam. It's fine for the self-directed (the "self-starters&quot ... but it's hell on the rest. And, once the teacher is occupied with a student, the only hope for anyone else with a question is... another student.

Having fellow students teach for free may be Newt Gingrich's wet-dream... but realistically it helps promote kids realization that only by working together can they all "prosper" academically. And, you know what that leads to?— Communism.

I'm actually only being half-sarcastic. Sacrificing one's own self-interests (if you're really far ahead in the modules, you can "take a day off" and there's absolutely no repercussions) to help fellow students is the basis of a "class consciousness". The more it happens, the more obvious it will become.

I was that student that held up his own lighting fast progress through the (analog) modules to help other students with questions... and I'm a Communist. Coincidence— I don't think so.

You and Bill Gates are promoting & fostering Communism.

But, in the meantime, your program leads to distracted teachers and kids doing whatever they like, kind of like the current system. Maybe the solution is to stop trying to force teachers to be behavior engineers as well as educators, and instead allocate the resources to the schools to provide personnel to deal with behavioral issues so that the teachers can concentrate on teaching (on their own terms).

[NYC_SKP]

79. Your rant presumes kids are naturally prone to misbehave or to become distracted.

And I maintain that even with a small class of 15 students LECTURES ARE BORING (with 99% of teachers).

Actually, kids are taught in schools to be unteachable, it's a natural resistance to schools' fetish for conformity.

Far too often, teachers think that because they said it, it's been taught, if it was missed then it was the students' fault for not listening.

In reality, it's teachers' fault for thinking that the old way works.

Moreover, there's nothing wrong with students helping students.

Teachers are NOT the bearers of all knowledge, far from it.

Knowledge is changing faster than teachers can keep up with it, and peer students are more likely to be able to explain concepts in a comprehensible fashion than most teachers.

We do it, it works, I'm right on this. I actually have teachers and students and programs and most of the people blathering on against this simply don't.

Just trying to help, but people don't want to listen.

That's ok, I just pity the students who have to suffer under their ignorance.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. Last time I checked, 15 divided by 3 was not 10

But a Khan Academy video told me it was.

I've been told the errors in higher level Science are striking, but not being a rocket scientist, I couldn't tell you about those specifically. But I've seen enough mistakes in elementary Math to avoid ever showing these videos in my classroom. And it's not because I'm afraid of my Eno board. Quite the opposite.

[Starry Messenger]

64. Thank you.

The Los Altos school district blog that talks about this program didn't mention this, when I looked it over last month. There were teachers that mentioned in the comments that students tended to rush through them to earn levels, like in a game, which didn't leave much space for reflecting on what had been learned. Sounds like those errors could get easily overlooked in the enthusiasm to make this program look like a rock star.

I'm fond of technology in the classroom too, but not this way.

[Celebration]

85. can you link to a mistake?

I've seen some of their videos where he corrects past mistakes. I'd love to see some of the mistakes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. Next time I come across one, I'll post it.

We've taken the links down so I'd have to go back and search 2000 videos.

[Celebration]

90. LOL, I understand

I think the MO is to leave the mistakes up and correct them later, for the purpose of showing that he can make mistakes. That is what I get from what little experience I have from these tutorials.

I am trying to learn microbiology. I've come across a couple of corrections to his videos in subsequent videos. Naturally I forget what they are.

[Dr. Strange]

97. Here's a critique...MST3K style.

In which we find out things like why (-4)x3 = -12 makes sense because -12 is -4 times itself 3 times.

[NYC_SKP]

42. Well, first of all, we cannot let that prevent using this model where we can.

Secondly, there will always be homes without internet and equipment, just as there are still homes without reliable and adequate electrical power and phones now, but we don't let that stop us from designing homework that requires, say, lights.

What we do is to provide after school, lunch time, free period, and other time access to the Internet every day so that nobody falls behind, everybody has access.

Also, nobody is talking about teaching sculpture, and nobody is talking about flipping REPLACING teaching.

Flipping means get your lecture and instructions at home, but do your applications with the teachers and peers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. Homes without electricity aren't at all common.

In fact, when I learn of a child living in a dwelling that has no electricity, I am inclined to hotline the family. No electricity means no heat (furnaces need electricity to light) or no hot water. That's unhealthy.

On the other hand, 90% of my students don't have the internet at home. That's very common and isn't a justification for a hot line report, as the lack of electricity - as explained above - would be.

[NYC_SKP]

68. If 90% of your students don't have Internet at home...

...then they would have to be given access at school, which might even be better.

Now I already know that there are people who will tell me right off that for one reason or another it's impossible to do, contrarians, pessimists, but in reality they are excuse seekers.

Schools that want kids to succeed would find a way to make this happen, working with parents staff and admins to schedule time in the day or after school, maybe even at the expense of sports (on no, not sports!!!) but there is a way where there is a will to free up classroom time for peer-supported teacher-facilitated problem solving and application.

Not only is the Khan Academy, flipped-classroom model more effective, it's more natural to the human learner (if one believes in evolution) AND more like the actual workplace that students will engage post-graduation.

The factory-model of education that we see in so many schools, teacher center lecture style, needs to die, it needs to end, it needs to be killed (except in whatever few instances in which it is actually working).

Maybe Khan isn't the end all, but the flipped classroom will grow and grow and I am grateful for that!

[2ndAmForComputers]

34. Mandatory

http://www.khaaan.com

[cascadiance]

37. Hmm... Does this program have Kirk's support too?

[longship]

39. Oh dear! Low hanging fruit

But nevertheless, obligatory. I was thinking the same exact thing when I saw this thread.

Good work, Cascadiance.

[Motown_Johnny]

41. The future of tutoring maybe

I don't think it can replace an actual flesh and blood teacher in the room but if a student is having trouble with a subject the he/she could easily get some help by visiting Khan Academy.

[EFerrari]

55. The Khan model and the "flipping" model assume students are receptacles

for facts when learning "content" is only one of the tasks young learners have.

[MadHound]

45. Well, it shouldn't be the future of education,

But given that this is part of the Gates education juggernaut, which has as its goal the objective to destroy public education and teachers, it could well become the future if we're not careful.

There are several problems with Khan Academy. First of all, it simply doesn't address all the ways a children learns, and you can't do that with videos. Second, self paced learning has been tried in various places at various times, and it has always wound up a disaster. Third, under this model, special needs kids get left behind. Fourth, there is no serious studies that prove whether or not Khan is an effective model. Rather, these glowing reports are from self selected subjects, always a poor way of conducting objective studies about any subject.

What Khan seems to be is another assault on teachers, trying to get rid of as many as possible, and trivialize the rest. Another program, dreamed up by another non-educator, pushed by somebody who is distinctly anti-education. This is but another step along the path to a two tier education system, where the lower, more numerous group of people get enough education to be technically literate, and are able to stock shelves at Wal Mart, while the elite go to private schools and get the type of education that every student deserves.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. Real academic experts are finding way too many content errors in Khan videos

Parents, DON'T USE THESE VIDEOS until you are sure the content is accurate. If you have no way of verifying the content, DON'T USE KHAN ACADEMY VIDEOS.

[haele]

54. It might be good for kids who want to learn. But those who don't. value education -

or whose parents won't (or are unable to) ride their asses to keep them off Facebook or video games when they're supposed to be doing homework on a computer will still hog the teacher's time.
For example - a class of forty low-middle income 13/14 year olds who "know it all" anyway will come to class for their homework session after supposedly reading and watching the lecture online over the weekend - and 1/2 to 3/4 of them will not have even glanced at the book sitting on the sofa or going on the school website the entire weekend.
The teacher will still need to spend half an hour or more going over the lecture and basically holding the hand of some of the unmotivated students to make sure they "understand" what they were supposed to be learning, while the more motivated students will be still trying to do their homework that they may or may not have viewed the lecture for without any assistance during the class.

The children on both ends of the curve are the issue with any education. Like most types of educational plans, this one will be good for some children, but not all.
The question comes down to a benefits assessment; will most students do well in a program like this, and at what age might this be appropriate? Unfortunatly, cost considerations always trump benefits, so if it's cheaper and will help a few students, it will be chosen over a system that might be somewhat more expensive, but will benefit significantly more students.

Haele

[EFerrari]

62. I tend to think of it as re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

So if you "flip" your classroom and arrange your 35 students in four small groups around a teacher, as the diagram did in the video, you still have a teacher who is teaching to the middle group in two of the small groups, the slower kids and the more advanced kids in the other two groups.

The two small groups where you've put the average students still will get most of your time. The advanced kids won't necessarily get more and the slower group still won't get enough.

We don't need more efficient ways to handle huge class sizes. We need smaller class sizes but THAT is not profitable for the Ed Deformers.

[Recursion]

56. Sounds a little similar to Montessori programs

I was in Montessori through 5th grade and it was great. Self-paced and collaborative.

[mia]

93. "Self-paced and collaborative."

I'm a Montessori teacher and would love to be able to incorporpate Kahn Academy math into my program. The students already use some self-paced reading programs.

[Yavin4]

66. This Is A Fantastic New Development in Education for this Reason

As you go through life, you will have to learn new subjects. Gone are the days of learning something in school, and then having a 30 year career based on what you learned in school.

Getting people use to learning this way, facilitates life long learning and acquiring new skills and information.

[NYC_SKP]

69. Exactly! And thank you for not taking a knee-jerk reaction against it.

Things are changing faster than schools will ever be able to follow using traditional textbook-based teaching models.

[Yavin4]

72. I Am Learning Two New Foreign Languages, German and Spanish, This Way

I study on my own time, and then I practice with native speakers.

I am also studying programming languages this way as well.

[NYC_SKP]

73. Very cool! Naysayers would say that students will try to cheat, to not work at it...

And they would be, to an extent, correct, not because it's their nature but because students learn to hate school and curriculum teaches them the wrong things and in the wrong way.

Students, people, are born curious and wanting to learn.

But schools beat our of them their curiosity and joy.

Good for you for self-study!

[joshcryer]

74. Being a major open source advocate I dislike the "faulty exercise" 'complaints.'

Capitalist naysayers said Open Source wouldn't work because you couldn't get "highly paid specialists" to do the job. But, we see large software suites, from Operating System Kernels (Linux) to OSs (Debian), to graphical software (GIMP, Inkscape, Blender), all of which are superior in many ways to institutionalized software (Windows, OSX, Photoshop CS, Illustrator, 3D Studio Max).

I just recently completed this Blender tutorial, and I am still in awe:

Just, amazing the sorts of things an untrained amateur can do when given the chance.

Anyway, I'm diverging. The reason I dislike the "faulty exercise" comments is that, in the end, all software, all products have a cycle of testing. You don't need highly trained specialists and editors and the like when the public serves that purpose. If a tutorial is wrong or doesn't explain a concept adequately, in fact, because this is reproducible objective reality, someone will catch it (possibly even a student themselves). It will eventually result in an improved system.

As it stands now KH has a lot of outstanding issues. A lot. More than most software developers would like. But that's the reality of Open Source. And i think it's an inherently good thing. It's up to the end-users to provide feedback and help them develop the system rather than reject it so easily.

[NYC_SKP]

84. Capitalist naysayers underestimate us artists and humanity as a whole.

Open source, to me and to many of it's "believers", is a more beautiful, organic, natural, and productive model.

I love your tutorial!

I go to youtube all the time to find out how to do things, I've saved a LOT of money on car repairs and found quick answers to a lot of "how do I" questions.

[joshcryer]

86. To clarify, by "complete" I mean I followed the instructions. That's not mine!

I've been sharing that all over the place because it's really really cool!

[Karmadillo]

76. How are the Khan videos working at Sidwell Friends?

[NYC_SKP]

81. I spoke with William Ayers about flipping the classroom.

Sorry that this doesn't address your question directly, but there are connections. My guess is that Sidwell Friends would not be averse to using Khan Academy materials.

Ayers and I were both at the same event in December where he had a keynote and, interestingly, the prior year Mr. Khan had a keynote.

You might enjoy Mr. Ayers' presentation.

Here, it's on YouTube

&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLAABF34D1D6EC071B

About 22 minutes in he addresses "sit down, shut up, kill and drill" styles of teaching.

As regards Sidwell Friends, you might enjoy this other Ayers presentation: http://grittv.org/2010/05/01/bill-ayers-the-journey-of-a-teacher/

[LooseWilly]

77. I did this program with the modules in 5th grade— back in 1979-80. Now it's a gimmick to sell PCs...

to all those computer labs that schools will have to have to guarantee access to the lessons for all the students.

What a surprise that Bill Gates and the pre-dead Steve Jobs should be such "champions" of this "revolutionary" new system of education.

In 1979, as you might be able to guess, we weren't doing any YouTube watching. This is not revolutionary or new.

Flip the classroom?... Or flip a few warehouse loads of computers on the taxpayers' dime? (Not that the textbook publishers aren't money grubbing public-institution/student gougers too...)

Yeah, sure... I was able to do two years worth of coursework in math in one year... and I sort of remembered most of it well enough to dance my way through algebra, trig... even elementary calculus and, with some limited success, some differential equations and multi-variable calculus later on in my years of math bondage.

But, I ask you, if this flipping was so wondrously successful in freeing me of the "constraints" of the onerous traditional model of education... why did it so spectacularly not-catch-on in the '80s that a$$holes like Gates and Jobs can claim, with straight faces, that this recycling is "revolutionary"?

Why would they care to try?

Could it be that they are so enamored of their own gizmos that, once the previous experiment happened to catch their eyes in recycled form within the framework of their own fixations... then they suddenly thought that it was a magic pixie-dusted fix for education— because it involved them? It allows them to think of themselves as somehow being "philanthropic", as a rationalizational veneer for their efforts to, perhaps because they just can't help themselves, secure one big-ass new customer for their products?

On the day that Bill Gates and the Estate of Steve Jobs begin donating to efforts to raise taxes on corporations and millionaires (and billionaires) in order to fund higher pay for teachers and better funding for schools to obtain resources (like computers or textbooks that are designed on the modularity model, like the ones I was using back in the '70s as a student)... that's the day that I will cease to suspect this of being a feint by the Silicon Valley Tech-Pimps to expand the demand for their product among public institutions which they are simultaneously contributing toward the effort to starve of sufficient resources to provide quality services to the public.

In my eye this whole campaign has the further insidious effect of pressuring the poor to make due without other necessities in order to themselves buy mid-high end computers, in order to provide their children with access to resources for their education— which will become increasingly necessary in order to compete academically... thus "inelastic-ifying" the demand for Gates' and ex-Jobs' products in the public at large. It may not be an issue among the upper middle classes that make policy decisions, but it is a regressively onerous burden for poorer families that may otherwise be able to make due with older computers, with slower processors or smaller hard discs... a regressive burden which is liable to further widen the achievement gaps between the prosperous and the not-so-prosperous (which will assure that the children of the prosperous are even more likely, still, to have an edge in the competition to secure admission to the colleges which only they could afford anyway...).

No, overall, I am not so "wow"ed by the Khan Academy. The videos seem like they might be a nice tool for those who aren't "getting" something though... like a tutor might help.

[NYC_SKP]

80. Say What? It's to sell PCs? Oh no you didn't!

Last edited Tue Mar 13, 2012, 10:01 AM - Edit history (1)

The Bill Gates conspiracy, eh?

First, we do NOT use PCs.

Nobody's selling anything, schools have computers, homes have computers, hell, kids have frakking smart phones that run better than computers.

No purchase required for flipping.

You're killin' me here with this theory.

Seriously, you mention a tutor. The flipped model provides time for peer support, the best kind.

Unless you think students are unteachable monsters who must have a strict master teacher who whips them into shape.

One thing about these education threads, one can always tell who does and who does not work with students in real life.

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. "one can always tell who does and who does not work with students in real life"

That's for sure.

[NYC_SKP]

94. Thank you!

But if I could on this often toxic board reveal some of our projects, accomplishments, and student successes in the press.

Yesterday's local paper for example, and last month a CBS crew took met with two current students, two recent graduates and myself in San Francisco to tape an episode for Channel One.

If you'd like, I'll forward a link by PM once the thing is released. Have you heard of Channel One?

Or, hell, maybe I'll post it.

[FarCenter]

82. Learning from computer instruction and getting information online is an essential skill for students

It's the only way that they will be able to keep up once they leave school.

[graywarrior]

88. It's the only way I'm getting through math class

[bathroommonkey76]

89. Powerpoint robots rule the roost

in community colleges these days; real teaching died years ago.

I have used Khan a few times for their math tutorials, and I would recommend their site to anyone struggling.

[Celebration]

92. overall I like them

Mortimer Adler subdivided teaching into three different components.

1. lecturing
2. one on one tutoring
3. discussion and group work

I believe that Khan Academy knows that they are only fulfilling #1, which is admirable. They are not the end all and be all. What they are doing is freeing the teachers to facilitate #2 and especially #3. And that IS efficient. And KA is real teaching, but it is only one third of the answer.

[NYC_SKP]

96. I've quit using PowerPoints.

I decided that if I know my material then I shouldn't need a PowerPoint.

The only exceptions are to show graphs or tables, such visual things, but not IDEAS or concepts.

I agree with you, many instructors are too heavily dependent upon the PPT.