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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHow to leave a psychopath
Run, don't look back. Consider changing your name, address, phone # and ss card #.
Are you involved with a psychopath (extreme sociopath)? You may not know because they can be very charming and friendly and can appear to be altruistic, until you get close and inevitably they do something threatening or immoral and then you must set limits that disappoint them. The near-constant state of frustration and dissatisfaction felt by a true psychopath is the source of not only their rages but those eerie, on-and-off-like-a-faucet tears. (Yes, tears are seen even in some men, though of course still more common in children and women.)
....
Bizarre brain waves from some parts of the brain and none from some other parts; epileptic seizures (usually grand mal); speech impediments caused by a chaotic way of storing information in the brain; low blood-pressure (hypotension); bradycardia (low heart rate); pseudoneurolepsy (falling asleep suddenly); a type of night-blindness caused by constriction of the pupils; sleep apnea; sleepwalking (somnambulism); other sleep disturbances; migraine or cluster-headaches with visual 'auras'; varying degrees of incontinence; lethargy OR wild excitement; unexpected sexual arousal; loss of sense of taste or smell; trouble with depth perception; inability to recognize facial expressions; inability to concentrate on more than one thing at a time; occasional inability to concentrate on anything at all; certain types of muscle spasticity or nonresponsive reflexes associated with a peripheral neuropathy if present.
Read a lot more at http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_get_out_of_a_relationship_with_a_sociopath
I know its wiki, but this post is extreamly comprehensive. Please read it if you find yourself that you may be dealing with a psychopath.
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Warpy
(114,616 posts)"Run, don't look back. Consider changing your name, address, phone # and ss card #."
Fortunately most of them out there are just borderline personalities or narcissists. Real full-bore psychopaths are relatively rare.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Not that rare, I would think. Or maybe I'm just terribly unlucky.
Warpy
(114,616 posts)I've seen the damage narcissists have done to friends and their children.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)He made me quit my job years ago, so I could " study and attend my pre reqs for my nursing school".
Sure enough was nothing but a lie. As soon as I went to school full time, he doubled down on his abuse. On daily basis.
I had to quit school and get away from him.
moriah
(8,312 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 10, 2013, 12:11 PM - Edit history (1)
Substance abuse is co-morbid.
My father was more than just a pot-smoking mama's boy who wouldn't get off the couch, but that's how he started out. He was a textbook case of Conduct Disorder as a child and teenager (though he loved animals and did not bedwet or set fires, though he liked watching them a lot), sent to a "training school" for chronic truancy where he was raped by multiple inmates, let out when he promised he'd go back to school (the kids trained him all right, told him how to sell drugs) and "taught what it was all about" by a neighbor lady at 12.
By the time he was 20, he had no respect whatsoever for the law, and no respect at all for the government's money -- he would, if he had been able to do so, defraud for anything he could get, especially when he needed to get high. He met all of the DSM-IV criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder.
Would I recommend anyone date him? Not in a heartbeat, I begged my mother never to get back with him.
Would he kill someone he was in love with? No. Did he have a conscience, did he love me? Yes, as much as it was possible.
I think that the development of the conscience and pro-social behavior will be determined to be a spectrum.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Add in the not inconsiderable numbers of people that have learned to mimic psychopathic behavior, and every person in America has been effected by this.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Recently I attended a lecture by an expert who said that .5 to 1% of us are psychopaths.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)that the evidence is indicative of real physiological underpinnings for this, and rather than seeing the person as a victim of an illness (as we would for, say, breast cancer) and lend support, when it comes to a serious mental condition our disposition is to spread fear and encourage abandonment and isolation.
Mental illness...it's the new leprosy.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Those in relationships with psychopats are not trained to offer help. They need to get away as soon as possible.
There is little help if any, for psychopats.
No one deserve to be abused and be a victim.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)and I think self-protection is important.
You wrote: "There is little help if any, for psychopats (sic)."
I submit abandonment of the 'psychopats' provides so little help as to be judged not helpful at all.
And isn't that a very curious way society chooses to advise dealing with a condition that the op shows is so obviously a physiologically based illness?
Well probably not in a place like DU, wherein reference to mental illness is regularly used as the hinge that separates the good guys from the bad guys in chauvinistic posts, but rather in what should be a concerned society?
A society that seeks not only to treat the ill, but to protect the members of society in general?
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)You would see there are sugestions for possible treatment.
At the same time, NO VICTIMS SHOULD STAY AND CONTINUE BE VICTIMIZED.
THEY ARE NOT TRAINED MENTAL HEALTHCARE WORKERS!
Leave it to the professionals.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)I don't think that step requires a person being a mental health professional or sticking around and being victimized.
It's quite plain from published surveys that Americans abhor association with the mentally ill. Last winter we learned from such a survey that 80%+ of American's don't want to work in a group that contains a (generically) mentally ill co-worker or have a (generically) mentally ill person as a neighbor.
So it really is not a surprise that the advice that's accepted is to abandon such people to their own devices and destructive illnesses.
The result -is- self-protection, at least in part. But it is also very much broad discrimination...that contributes to lack of treatment and denies opportunity for employment and advancement, housing, mortgages, and associations with others that humans as gregarious animals also are known to require.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)It's a personality disorder - far different than a mental illness - and there is no therapy that helps psychopaths - in fact if you can even get them to get therapy (rare, they don't think they need it, as they are far superior to YOU in their mind) it makes them far, far worse. Therapy gives them a chance to learn how to exploit new victims, studies show.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)(see reply #20)
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)I do understand that where it is used with reference to psychiatry it typically refers to what has been called anti-social personality disorder.
The mislabeling isn't really the heart of the issue. It's the general notion that as the OP presented...there is evidence of physiological dysfunction...and yet the most accepted advice for such persons is abandonment.
That's a position to which you seemingly ascribe. You are entitled to your opinion.
What a shame that abandonment to their own demise is so easily accepted. I've witnessed professional psychiatric staff do that to borderlines...another supposed untreatable illness, so I know it's a path clinicians actively choose for some illnesses.
But, wouldn't it be more humane to treat these person at least as well as the horse with a broken leg?
No, no, it is a far, far, better thing to run away and act like we never knew.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)How about you open your home to a few psychopaths. No one should feel bad for protecting themselves (and potentially their children) from an abusive relationship, no matter the reason for the abuse. I think it's cruel that you are trying to make the OP feel ashamed for leaving a psychopathic partner.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)That as the only thing to do is a false choice.
My point was and remains that unlike other illnesses with physiological/biological basis, rather than looking at the person as afflicted, as a society we see them as something to abandon.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)where you said she should have given support to her partner instead of abandoning him? The way you worded it looked like you intended to communicate that she should have martyred herself because it was just like a partner who had breast cancer.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Yet I think the OP is focusing less on societal response and more on the response of an individual in potential danger.
These are two wholly separate concepts, and conflating the two responses is invalid and misleading.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)person to get better.
I think a psychopath would laugh their ass off at you pitying them so. They think you are weak and they will play you until YOUR demise, not theirs, all the while crying the victim about how they can't help it, they are just ill, it's not their fault (sound familiar?)
A psychopath is not the same as someone with a broken leg. It's more like an angry person with a gun. If you stay, you are more likely to be the one hurt, not them.
A fine way you have of blaming the victim for not getting psychopaths help. It's not up to the victims of psychopaths - it's up to science. Until science comes up with a way to deal with psychopathy, yes, they are basically a 'write off' for your average person - they cannot deal with them and must escape. Unless you are a trained professional, it's not up to YOU to save the psychopath.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)totally agree.
The psychopath is not the victim's responsibility.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)to handle it (assuming you can get them to step in), is not advocating abandonment.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)and there comes a point with an abuser where self-preservation has to be worth more to a person than their abuser's poor little feelings.
I suspect you have never had to live with one, or you would never say such a thing. Quite literally, the only way out is to run and never look back. Allow them to stay in contact because you're worried about their poor little feelings and they will manipulate themselves right back into your life and take over. It's what they do, and they are good at it.
Darkangel's OP was right on target. Get out, run, don't look back. If you think hanging around would be more "humane", well, you're welcome to try it for yourself.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)I would say in sadness to the state of affairs - they genuinely cannot help being that way. It is not a choice. But, that's besides the point. It might be possible someday to reprogram and even fix a sociopath's or pychopath's neurotransmitters so that they can experience sympathy, empathy and remorse - but that level of neurotechnology does not currently exist in any reliable form.
Dorian Gray
(13,850 posts)
raccoon
(32,390 posts)ConcernedCanuk
(13,509 posts).
.
.
Socio/psychopathy is a personality disorder, not a mental illness.
CC
moriah
(8,312 posts)It's just a slightly different kind of "sick", which different outcomes and different treatment regimes.
People often give up on those diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, when they have now come across several therapy modalities that seem to help them. Dialectical Behavioral Therapy is one of the strongest tools in the arsenal to help with self-destructive personality traits, the hallmark of BPD, along with bulimia and other self-harm.
There may be therapy that will help them years down the road. Also, don't forget that many are labeled as having Antisocial Personality Disorder because of not conforming to the law, but may have other mental illnesses that co-exist that CAN be treated more easily.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)propensity to KILL you!
I ran as far away as I could...after spending 16 yrs with one...
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I don't wish on anyone to know.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I was sort of unaware of toxic relationships because I have parents with "issues" as well. So it all seemed normal to me at the time. I know better now. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. And that poster is damn lucky to seem not to know that you cannot reason with a psychopath. Psychopaths believe they are superior humans....how are you going to get them to accept that they need help? An "intervention" is not going to work in this case....psychopaths are not in relationships with people they feel "equal" to...they don't feel "equal" to anyone else...
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Thank you for sharing your experience. Like you, I am glad some dont realize how poisonous and dangereus psychopaths really are.
Surviving what we went through will only make us stronger. But we are the lucky ones. Some don't make it alive
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)means they literally are not aware of what they are missing, and enjoy exploiting and abusing others instead of getting help. So, yeah- advice saying 'you can't fix them, run before the abuse gets worse" is the best we can do. If they have always been manipulators, it is very hard to undo.
If however, there is a sudden onset of sociopath behavior from a person who used to have scruples, get your loved one to a neurologist, stat. That can be a symptom of a tumor or stroke. My friends ex wife suddenly became an cruel cheater, thief, and abandoned her own kids. Totally out of character, and caused by a tumor that they discovered way too late.
This is the problem with adults with serious psychiatric issues, they have to want the help- or understand they need it. Because unless they commit a crime, no one can force it on them.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)The "article" is rife with stigma-inducing language, unfounded assertions and even outdated language (Ooh isn't "pscyhopath" so much scarier than sociopath?). Unfortunately mental illness is still something that can be laughed at, made fun of and all superstitions seem acceptable when labeling and dehumanizing people who suffer from it. Unfortunately society is largely movie/tv-educated about these issues.
Spot on about the abandonment and isolation, too. Our now (thankfully) defunct state hospital has many unmarked graves of people who spent most of their lives there. People who committed no crime or were harmful to anyone. They were isolated because of fear and ignorance. Years ago parents would sometimes drop children off there to simply be rid of them. Disgraceful.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)
Thanks? Is advocacy for people with mental illness and discouraging stigma and superstition against them unwelcome?
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Should their victims put up with them? Should they never leave because of stigma of their abusers??
My take on people with ASPD/ sociopathy is that they are human beings first and not monsters and they're not all the same. If they are harming someone the person should make a choice to deal with it or leave. What is your take on people with Borderline Personality or Bipolar Disorder(s), both of which can lead to harmful behavior to self or others? Should they be avoided/ostracized as well?
I don't know what "stigma of their abusers" means but you're implying I said something I did not mean to say.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)to spell psychopath correctly.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)MAYBE THERE'S A cHENEY THREAD WHERE YOU CAN GIVE THAT PSYCHOPATH SOME LOVE
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)
You dont have to go very far afield to identify well-known psychopaths in recent US history. I don't think they're so rare.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)if you want, but this is uncalled for snark intended only to humiliate the OP
A more gracious way to do this would have been by private message.
PS...I don't agree or disagree with what the OP wrote, BTW. This appears to be an issue without an either/or all-purpose one-size-fits-all answer
moriah
(8,312 posts)People stay with people who might not be good for them for a multitude of reasons.
Some may also leave.
That's their choice. Maybe we need a APD-Anon.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Do some research on psychopats and get back to me. Psychopatism is not something someone can join a 12 step program and be cured( at least temporarily). Professionals argue wether there is any help for them, as their brain is wired differently.
moriah
(8,312 posts)And many 12-steppers believe the disease cannot *ever* be "cured".
I personally think the DSM-V definition is doing better to avoid mislabeling people with the diagnosis specifically for repeated illegal conduct.
http://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/carrerasdegrado/psicologia/sitios_catedras/practicas_profesionales/610_clinica_cuadrosfront_psicosis/material/dsm.pdf
Here's the old criteria:
"There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:
1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.
2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.
3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing.
So, a pot smoker who can't pay their bills and doens't plan ahead, technically, can be diagnosed with APD if they're put in the hospital for something else.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Addiction and psychopathy are very far from each other.
moriah
(8,312 posts)You have every right to leave the psychopath you were involved with. I'm not judging you for it. Nor would I judge someone for leaving an alcoholic.
But while a pot-smoking, non-bill paying guy who keeps rationalizing why he can't or won't get a job is certainly not the best boyfriend material, he's not incurable either.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Can you? What percentage of them CAN make a full recovery?
Lol.
moriah
(8,312 posts)They still smoke pot, but they stopped rationalizing why they couldn't lay on their butts and live off of other people all day.
As I said: the old diagnostic criteria sucked for this disorder, so I really think many people diagnosed with it, just like many people currently diagnosed with BPD, may be misdiagnosed.
Please check out the PDF and tell me if you think the new description for the disorder sound more like what you've had experience with?
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Were they compulsive liars? Alsways trying to blame others for anything and everything? Were they manipulators who never felt any emotions at all?
I highly doubt it.
moriah
(8,312 posts)And here's the PDF explaining the differences, too:
http://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/carrerasdegrado/psicologia/sitios_catedras/practicas_profesionales/610_clinica_cuadrosfront_psicosis/material/dsm.pdf
"There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:
1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.
2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.
3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing."
1 -- Buying and smoking pot is grounds for arrest.
3 -- Impulsivity and failure to plan ahead -- that's common enough for almost anyone to get tagged with it, and not defined well.
6 -- Consistent irresponsibility -- as I said, the ones who wouldn't get off the couch.
7 -- Rationalizing the not getting a job with that the economy is poor and no one would hire them.
Yes, a pothead who refuses to get a job and rationalizes why they can't or won't get a job, according to the old definitions, had Antisocial Personality Disorder (the correct name for the disorder).
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)They don't have the same/or even close origin.
There is lil if any cure for psychopaths. If you disagree please post the stats.
moriah
(8,312 posts)Have you even taken a look at the DSM-V criteria?
That actually does explain things and if your guy is diagnosable under it, I'd say he's a psychopath. The old definition sucked so badly that I do not trust any diagnosis made under it. There's a reason I posted it, twice. It's a very good read, and it discusses the other revisions to personality disorders. It clarifies BPD, for example, in a way that I think will be much more beneficial for clinicians and patients alike.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Have you changed your mind on that??
Again, psychopaths can not be cured, most of the time. Can you say the same about alcoholics? And if not, why make the comparison?? Just give it up. Pot smokers and alcoholics have nothing to do with psychopathy.
moriah
(8,312 posts)This is according to the most respected and common treatment modality for alcoholism, Alcoholics Anonymous. Read the "Big Book". Alcoholism is a disease, that does not have a cure. It has treatment options.
So is antisocial personality disorder.
However, what *I* have been trying to assert, and you have been pointedly ignoring this entire time, is that just because someone's doctor tagged them as having antisocial personality disorder doesn't mean you should always run screaming for the hills. If you READ, which I have pointed out more than once, it is entirely possible for a jobless pot smoker who justifies laying up on his momma's couch to carry in his medical records somewhere the diagnosis of a psychopath, even if they aren't likely to kill you.
Just because someone's diagnosed as something doesn't make it so. Doctor's make mistakes.
And, suggesting that anyone should dump someone simply because of such a diagnosis bothers me, the same way that it bothers me to hear that many people will not bother with women with eating disorders or who have been sexually abused, because it's too much work.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Now you compare psychopathy with eating disorders.
Why people leave psychopaths is not because "its too much work". They leave because is simply not safe to be around one. Most psychopaths don't even realize there is anything wrong with them, and would not seek or accept help ( not that there is much to be done for them anyway, as studies show).
Those who become victims of psychopaths need to get out, and get out fast. I'm sorry you have troubles understanding. But I dont wish you to experience it ( even though that would make you understand) first hand either.
moriah
(8,312 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 10, 2013, 02:52 PM - Edit history (1)
Read my post near the top of the thread about my father. He met every DSM-IV-TR criteria, and probably would meet the DSM-V criteria, for Antisocial Personality Disorder. He'd been in and out of jail, numerous physical fights with other men, no respect for the law, always happy to pay you Tuesday for a sandwich today (and then he'd "forget" or justify why you owed him that sandwich). He had it, IMHO. He wasn't about to kill someone. He wasn't someone I'd date, nor would I recommend my mother did, but I didn't abandon him as his kid.
Also, read "The Psychopath Test". It's a great book, that discusses how many executives have it, and aren't killing people either (just their employees' souls).
Edit to add: I understand you are a nursing student, and I'm just a student (and messed up person myself) of psychology. But I'm *quite* familiar with AbPsych, and there *are* methods to treat ASPD for those who are actually motivated to go into treatment. Just like any other treatment for ANY mental disorder. There are also variations in functioning. I'm sorry the person you dealt with was obviously on the worst end of the spectrum.
But tarring everyone whose doctor has written that in their charts at one point as unfixable, untreatable, useless people who should be abandoned and left bothers me a great deal. Men who enter psychiatric treatment, especially court-ordered psychiatric treatment, are often given this diagnosis if they're considered "difficult" patients, just like women who are difficult patients who are suicidally depressed are labeled often incorrectly as Borderline.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)The OP is talking about an abusive relationship. Psychopathic partners are often abusive, and no one should feel bad for protecting themselves (and potentially their children) from abuse. The OP is not a martyr and should feel no shame for getting herself out of an abusive relationship, no matter the reason for the abuse.
But there was much more in the article than that, which is what I commented on, right?
gollygee
(22,336 posts)
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)I'm "friends" with a sociopath, and even though he claims to "love" his girlfriend, he "loves" her like I love my binoculars or my spotting scope.
She's a thing to him. He "loves" her for what he can get out of her, and nothing more.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)They have no consciousness. They see their "loved ones" as possessions and nothing more.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Answers.com
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)into part of the masochistic attraction. But I would say that one should certainly consider leaving town and burning all bridges if they really want to be free.
devils chaplain
(602 posts)I'm sure most corporate-climber types aren't sociopaths, but I still don't understand the mentality.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Can not be explained and most or the time it can't be fixed, unless they want to change their behaviour. Even then, they would just act normal. Its a hopeless situation.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I think fleeing is best and starting over.
JimboBillyBubbaBob
(1,389 posts)Why, full speed at the next exit!
darkangel218
(13,985 posts) 
derby378
(30,262 posts)You can pull up a list of DSM-IV criteria for what constitutes a psychopath, and chances are I'd agree with the list. But when it comes to hurting or manipulating the person a psychopath shares his life with, he does so through his own free will. At that point, I'd rather leave him to the police.
I'm sorry for what you went through with your ex. Hope things are better now.
moriah
(8,312 posts)..... always reminded me of the dilemma of a psychopath, if it were written from their point of view.
polichick
(37,626 posts)with them in a romantic or legal way - but it was surprising how many people were fooled by them, even after their actions should have made things clear. These people have an uncanny ability to surround themselves with loyal sycophants.