Occupy... I Wonder If Secretary Kerry Even Gets The Irony Here...

[WillyT]

The United States expresses its disgust with the decision of Ukrainian authorities to meet the peaceful protest in Kyiv’s Maidan Square with riot police, bulldozers, and batons, rather than with respect for democratic rights and human dignity. This response is neither acceptable nor does it befit a democracy.

From: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/11/world/europe/kerrys-statement-on-ukraine.html?_r=0

[NuclearDem]

1. Well, the Ukranian protests are a middle finger to Putin, something we can get behind.

Occupy, on the other hand, is a middle finger to the monied interests and corporate fascists on Wall Street and in Congress.

Good protest, bad protest.

[msanthrope]

51. I'm waiting for the Glenn Greenwald column on these protests. nt

[HooptieWagon]

2. My thought exactly....

...when I heard that quote. People who live in glass houses, and all.

[polichick]

3. We're exceptional - neither morality nor rules apply.

[hootinholler]

4. I heard that last night and had similar thoughts. n/t

[EC]

5. I was thinking the same... n/t

[Cali_Democrat]

6. There's a difference between the Federal government and state/local police

Police departments like the NYPD and Oakland police went after occupy with physical force.

I'm not sure how you can pin that on the federal government.

Now, I heard reports that there were FBI informants who infiltrated occupy, but that isn't the same thing and violently attacking protesters with batons and tear gas.

[Maedhros]

13. There was evidence that the response of local police departments

was being coordinated by Federal law enforcement agencies.

Regardless, the point being made is that Kerry had an opportunity as an influential U.S. Senator to speak out against the police brutality directed at OWS but chose not to.

[Cali_Democrat]

18. Can you provide evidence of this? nt

[Maedhros]

30. Sure.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy

http://www.juancole.com/2011/11/police-crackdowns-on-ows-coordinated-among-mayors-fbi-dhs.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/18/occupy-wall-street-crackdowns_n_1101685.html

http://wonkette.com/456282/surprise-homeland-security-coordinates-ows-crackdowns-nationwide

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2011/11/15/dhs-coordinated-police-assaults-on-occupy-everywhere-protestors/

[Cali_Democrat]

31. There is evidence of infiltration and surveillance

which i mentioned.

But there's no evidence tear gas and baton use against protesters were the result of federal government orders.

[Maedhros]

38. I did not make the claim that orders came down from the Federal Government

to use specific methods (e.g. tear gas, etc.).

The claim was that local police departments' responses to OWS were being coordinated by Federal agencies. There is ample evidence for that claim. The nature and physicality of responses may or may not have been specified by the coordinators.

[geek tragedy]

35. No, there was zero evidence of that, just a bunch of kooky bloggers making that accusatoin.

There remains zero evidence to that point.

[Maedhros]

39. Your understanding of the terms "zero" and "evidence" is muddled.

Here's how debate works. I post links with evidence supporting my point:


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy

http://www.juancole.com/2011/11/police-crackdowns-on-ows-coordinated-among-mayors-fbi-dhs.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/18/occupy-wall-street-crackdowns_n_1101685.html

http://wonkette.com/456282/surprise-homeland-security-coordinates-ows-crackdowns-nationwide

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2011/11/15/dhs-coordinated-police-assaults-on-occupy-everywhere-protestors/

Then, you post links with evidence supporting your point.

Ball is in your court. GO!

[geek tragedy]

40. Those blog posts all cite the same Examiner article.

Which cited no one with direct or indirect knowledge of any coordination, just some anonymous DOJ (not DHS) guy speculating that DHS must have been involved. And even his account doesn't come close to stating there was coordination:

The official, who spoke on background to me late Monday evening, said that while local police agencies had received tactical and planning advice from national agencies, the ultimate decision on how each jurisdiction handles the Occupy protests ultimately rests with local law enforcement.

http://www.examiner.com/article/update-occupy-crackdowns-coordinated-with-federal-law-enforcement-officials

That author subsequently talked to several DHS officials, who all contradicted that modest speculation:

http://www.examiner.com/article/worries-about-fed-involvement-occupy-crackdowns-overblown-says-official

http://www.examiner.com/article/homeland-security-role-occupy-crackdowns-limited-says-agency

[Maedhros]

41. Well done! I suspected you had it in you.

I'm not ready to believe the Feds just yet, though.

http://www.examiner.com/article/worries-about-fed-involvement-occupy-crackdowns-overblown-says-official

The Justice Department has also declined to answer my questions about the department's level of involvement. Although early Friday, a "high-level administrator" at the department offered to speak with me about some general aspects of Justice's interaction with local officials. I was not allowed to identify the individual, other than to describe this person as "knowledgable on the topic of interagency coordination."

The official declined to talk about specific discussions between local and federal officials, but did complain that talk of some "grand conspiracy to shutdown protests is overblown."

"Of course we were all talking back-and-forth," said the official, in a phone interview during which I was allowed to take notes but not record. "But I don't think there's a chance there was some grand coordinated plan to shut down these protests."

The official went on to say that since many of the "Occupy" protests are taking place in public spaces, a number of law enforcement agencies needed to coordinate tactical information, including the besy way to proceed with evictions if that was deemed necessary by local authorities.

"The final decision has always been at the local level," said the official. "They may get some planning assistance from the federal level, but they're just as likely to be getting help from other cities going through the same situation."

Two anonymous sources; one claimed the response was Federally-coordinated and the second, in response to the bad press, issues a non-denial denial ("They may get some planning assistance from the federal level, but...&quot .

I'd say the question is still open. I would give more credibility to the first source, since it's less likely to be spin-doctoring by the Feds.

[geek tragedy]

42. neither said the federal government decided to evict the protestors

essentially the first guy said that the feds told the states to have a legal reason for evicting protestors.

the DHS coordination nonsense is a distraction from the real DHS issue--how DHS has militarized local police departments for a decade, and how that resulted in unnecessarily violent evictions.

The reason there were so many violent evictions wasn't because it was coordinated to be so at the federal level--its because so many of the PDs had been trained and equipped to be so violent.

[Maedhros]

43. I believe the DHS involvement in coordinating police response to OWS

does not distract from, but rather underscores, the militarization issue. It proves the very close cooperation between the local and Federal agencies with respect to strategy and operations. Why wouldn't we expect cooperation with respect to tactics and equipment?

Really - one can't really find better examples of abusive, militarized police actions that from the OWS debacles.

[geek tragedy]

44. There was no coordination on the federal level.

There is simply no credible evidence of this giant evil conspiracy.

So, throwing easily discredited nonsense that no one outside the far left echo chamber believes gets in the way of the real story.

[Maedhros]

45. Your source admits it!

"The final decision has always been at the local level," said the official. "They may get some planning assistance from the federal level, but they're just as likely to be getting help from other cities going through the same situation."

Keep in mind, the wording of this "leak" was probably finely crafted to elicit maximum plausible deniability since it was issued in response to a wave of criticism in the media.

[geek tragedy]

47. speculation is not admission. nt

[MADem]

54. The EXAMINER can often be a "Huge Bullshit" source--their writers are not vetted well if at all.

Examiner.com is fully powered by Examiners, thousands of writers who are self-motivated independent contributors. Each Examiner is able to express through words and photos a deep expertise in a topic. Their knowledge is enhanced by a viewpoint unique to their experiences and oftentimes, their location....

http://www.examiner.com/About_Examiner
Don't ever take anything in an "Examiner.com" article without a HUGE grain of salt. It's not really a source that is at all reliable.

[dreamnightwind]

14. Less true than you think

DHS officials shared and coordinated strategies (crackdown to evict Occupy protests)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12526908

And the Feds have been directly involved in the militarization of local police forces, from equipment through training.

[Cali_Democrat]

17. Those links are dubious at best

and that post was created by a vicious anti-semite who has now been tombstoned.

[dreamnightwind]

23. You're trying to discredit this because of FWWM's status?

Sad. Think what you like, but the reality behind the links is unfortunately quite real.

[U4ikLefty]

46. I know Fire personally & he's no anti-semite.

He know more about Occupy than most on this board....that's for damn sure.

[sabrina 1]

48. The US Govt was asked to intervene to protect Occupy protestors from the brutality of the Robo Cops

by the UN. That is how brutal the crackdown to silence them was. It got the attention of the world. There was no response, no attempt to end that brutality by the US Govt.

Because the crackdown WAS coordinated at a Federal Level which was proven long ago

But even if it had not been, shame on the US Government for NOT ending the brutality against peaceful protesters when it was clear their very lives were in danger from those morons. When two US Veterans were nearly killed for exercising their rights, it was time for the Government to intervene, even to make a statement condemning that violence, but they were silent.

We have no right to criticize any other country at this point until we clean up our own mess. No one listens to us anymore anyhow, after the past decade when we lost our moral authority around the world and until we start prosecuting War and Wall St. Criminals we won't get it back.

[riqster]

7. Kerry was a demonstrator before, ya know. nt

[arcane1]

8. No kidding, it's not like the Ukranians asked a question about a Greg Palast book.

[zeemike]

9. What is really disappointing to me is

That no one will call his hypocrisy to his face and make him explain why he is preaching to them but ignoring what we have done and still do.

[G_j]

10. +1000

[randome]

11. Who is doing what to whom now? And Kerry had nothing to do with Occupy.

In fact, the vast majority of politicians and political pundits had nothing to do with Occupy.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[Maedhros]

15. That's the point.

They sat back and said nothing while the police brutality played out for the world to see.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. State and municipal elements of the US Government attacked Occupy and other peaceful

protests over the years.

We are no better.

[randome]

20. How many Occupy encampments were there? How many were met with brutality?

I'm guessing it's a small percentage. Not at all the hoped-for outcome, of course.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[zeemike]

24. Yep it is all about the numbers...if it is only 10% it is OK with some.

Part of a Nationwide Attack

The attack in Oakland is part of a nationwide, planned, and systematic unleashing of violence and repression against the Occupy movement. This attack was not just city leaders and police running amuck. It has been revealed, for example, that Oakland's mayor had participated in a conference call with mayors of at least 18 other cities and the Department of Homeland Security prior to a wave of police assaults on Occupy encampments in more than a dozen cities last November, all of which followed a remarkably similar script. And now, as this new attack was coming down in Oakland, authorities were preparing to evict Occupy encampments in other places.

The ideological assaults accompanying the physical assaults on the Occupy movement are also part of a nationwide attack—utilizing major media. Those who are struggling to advance this movement are marginalized, described as not "constructive," ridiculed and demonized.

http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php/occupy/7622-brutal-police-assault-on-occupy-oakland-march

[randome]

27. It is never 'okay' to attack protesters.

But making what happened part of a 'nationwide attack' is paranoia. And if the 'world can't wait', why isn't Occupy doing something besides hurricane and debt relief?

Apparently the world can wait.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[zeemike]

29. But is OK to remain silent when they do

From your position of leadership and then lecture other countries on it.

[karynnj]

57. Kerry was Massachusetts Senator and their were NO verified accounts of brutality in MA

He also chaired SFRC and was on Finance, Small Business, and the Commerce committee. Precisely which of those committees dealt with anything done by US police departments?

Not to mention in the small number of cases where there were genuine arguments of brutality - like Oakland - there were pending indictments etc. Kerry, a lawyer, with no facts beyond what was in the media, would have had no reason to speak out. NO ONE was saying the brutality was justified.

[zeemike]

59. And with that same standard then

What authority does he have to lecture other countries about it?...
You don't have to be on the proper committee to speak out when wrong is done...when you are silent you give consent.

[karynnj]

61. He is the Secretary of State -- and as such puts out the position of the Obama administration

on issues involving other countries.

He was NOT silent - he did back the ideas behind Occupy - and said so faster than nearly any other Senator.

[zeemike]

62. Show me.

Where he spoke out about the police brutality against OWS...I never saw it.
It is one thing to give lip service to protest and another to actually speak out against the wrong being done.
So if it is the official position about police crack down on protest, then why did they not say so when it happened in this country?
Sorry but it makes us look like hypocrites to the world, and the world is justified in that view.

[sabrina 1]

52. How many seriously injured peaceful protesters do you need, including Military Vets exercising the

rights they fought for, in order to make a 'brutal crackdown' actually worth noticing in a Democracy?

There were beatings and thousands of arrests across the country, each one almost mirroring the others in tactics, uniforms, false arrests etc.

The world got to see it all which is why we have little moral authority around the world anymore.

ONE such incident of brutality would have been too much in a Democracy. But for OWS, there were hundreds of them.

Shame on this country for what they did during those peaceful protests. I know the far Right was cheering it on, but surely the Left would not join in any approval of such oppressive tactics, and for the most part, they did not, thankfully.

[randome]

53. Zero would be a good number.

But it was widely believed that 'protesting' is not equivalent to camping out in other cities' public parks.

The situation was volatile the longer people wanted to remain there without doing much in the way of what most people would call 'protesting'.

That doesn't exonerate the cops who used excessive force but it was a situation tailor-made for confrontation.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

56. Wrong again, it was widely believed that just one day of protesting throughout the previous decade

no matter how big, was totally ineffective and easily ignored by the Corporate Media. So it was WIDELY discussed among protesters EVERYWHERE against illegal Wars and Corruption on Wall St, that occupying the Public Square, an old and historical method of protesting wrong policies, would have the desired effect lost in the one day protests.

So widely believed that they began in Spain with the Indignados mimicing previous protesters and occupying their public squares drawing attention to the cause of the collapse of their economies leading to huge unemployment, due to corruption of Wall St.

Two groups in the US were planning to protest and not leave until they had made their point to as many people as possible, OWS was one of them here in the US, the rest of the world was widely supportive of this and began their own protests.

The reason Bloomberg and 'his Wall St. army' of Robo Cops, could not throw them out of Zuccotti Sq was because OWS had done its research and knew it would be a legal challenge for him to do so and by then, they would have made their point. Their goal was to remain in Zuccotti Part for, at the most, two weeks. That turned out to be true. But way beyond the dreams of the planners, the movement spread across the country.

And, btw, polls in NYC supported the format of the protests by over 80%.

[karynnj]

63. The protesters were still in Zuccotti Park in November - starting September 17

That is not 2 weeks! The clash with police was on December 31. The support THEN was nowhere near 80% - as it was in September.

[zeemike]

19. It is not about Kerry having something to do with Occupy

It is about his hypocrisy in scolding them when his own country who he represents does the same thing, and in some cases worse.
You don't get to wash your hands of responsibility when you take a leadership position...you own it.

[randome]

22. So because local police sometimes behaved barbarically...

...that means the entire country should stay silent?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[zeemike]

26. Well that is the point now is it not?

The vast majority including Kerry stayed silent when it was going on...now they want to lecture some other country.

[ljm2002]

36. When "local police sometimes behaved barbarically"...

...it would have been nice if some of our national leaders had scolded them in the same way that Kerry scolded the Ukrainian government. Kerry and almost all of our national so-called leaders were okay when our own highly militarized police forces cracked down on peaceful protesters, using violence far beyond what was reasonable; yet they are quick to scold another government when they engage in such behavior.

The crackdown on OWS was coordinated nationally. We KNOW the FBI infiltrated them and tried to get them to engage in violent tactics. The FBI is an arm of the Federal government. We KNOW the NSA -- another Federal agency -- feeds data to local police when it suits their purposes to do so. Does anyone really believe that OWS was not targeted at the Federal level? Really?

I don't know whether those Ukrainian police were federal or local in their country either. We are a huge country with separate states, so a lot of the on-the-ground action here will involve local or state forces rather than federal forces. Other countries are structured differently. I do know that bashing peaceful protesters is supposed to be un-Constitutional in this country, where freedom of speech and the right to petition our government for redress of grievances is enshrined as the First Amendment to the Constitution.

BTW, if protesters in this country were to topple a large statue of some historical figure, a lot of people -- including DUers -- would say the protesters incited the violence and deserved what they got.

In answer to your question: No, the entire country need not and should not stay silent regarding the crackdown in the Ukraine; but our so-called leaders ought to practice some ethical and moral consistency and speak up when our own militaristic police forces are out of line. I'm not holding my breath.

[zeemike]

60. That is how I see it too.

And thanks for that well stated post.

[karynnj]

58. Nowhere near the order of magnitude

In fact, in most cities - including NYC, the police tolerated tent cities for weeks. This while local businesses - hurt by it - complained. The fact is Occupy itself had no announced date they would end the protest -- setting themselves up to either be forcibly removed or having it go on for weeks until people left.

Kerry did NOT have a leadership position that had jurisdiction over any city - or over any force that was involved in Occupy.

Here, he had the position to make a measured comment - like his European peers. This may have had some impact.

[sabrina 1]

49. Wrong, lots of elected officials had a lot to do with Occupy. But they were politicians who

cared about the corruption on Wall St, people like NY US Attorney, Schneiderman eg, who met with them and credited them for supporting him in his fight AGAINST Wall St., among others.

The rest were too cowardly to come out and support the People in their effort to end Wall St corruption and influence over our electoral process. And Republicans of course, who are bought and paid for, hated OWS from the start. Most of the elected politicians who supported OWS publicly, were Democrats.

I've always wondered why any Democrat would be supporting Right Wing policies and condemning those who are trying to do something about them.

Edited to make this less vague for you. Bernie Sanders publicly supported OWS and they were endorsed by the Progressive Caucus in Congress, not to mention all the local elected Dems who came out and joined them.

‎

[woo me with science]

12. [phone]

Thank you.

[karynnj]

21. Kerry has always been consistent on the right to protest

Even in 1971, he was the one that got the various permits for the VVAW and he spent time in DC working to keep the peace between the vets and the police. He also was arrested in a peaceful protest in Lexington, MA - where they stayed beyond the curfew. His comments years later on that arrest - I think 2006 when he went to CA and met with people protesting the immigration laws was that being willing to be peacefully arrested while protesting was part of what protesting meant.

Kerry DID speak in favor of the OWS protestors:

Senator Kerry responded to the protestors and actually sided with them, saying:

"People are angry about the economy and I am too. I'm glad to see people pushing for jobs and pushing for fairness after years when some of the most powerful interests on Wall Street hurt our economy and left Main Street with the bill," he says.
http://www.cbs3springfield.com/story/15659464/protestors-occupy-springfield

[great white snark]

25. Ah those pesky facts.

Thank you.

[zeemike]

28. And what did he say when the cops beat the shit out of them?

Would love to see the quote.

[WillyT]

34. Well That's Great To Know... But...

Whatever "Moral Authority" we used to possess as the world leader that we presume to be, has been seriously eroded in the last 12 or so years.

With a stolen election, two unnecessary wars, drone strikes and mass surveillance around the world, AND the wiping away of the only people brave enough to stand up and try to make amends for the afore mentioned bullshit...

Secretary Kerry's words ring a tad hollow.

To me at least.

[ljm2002]

37. Please let us know what he said about...

...the crackdowns in Zucotti Park, Oakland, and the California campus where students were viciously pepper-sprayed for engaging in a sit-in protest. Thanks.

[sabrina 1]

50. Or the near killing by the robo cops of two US Military Veterans. Did anyone go visit those two

veterans when they were in the hospital, from our government? I don't think they did.

'Support the Troops' except when they exercise the very rights they are told they are fighting for!

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

32. Hillary was doing it before Kerry...

Just as ironic then.

[Rex]

33. I'm curious, does anyone know what Kerry said about this?

You know...about the cop that decided to pepper spray human dignity, got a good payoff for it?

[MADem]

55. Why would the then-Senator from MA be expected to comment on an incident

on a university campus in California?

And why would anyone assume that a Senator from MA had any input into the "payoff" that the fired policeman got from the University?

I have to laugh at some of the stretches that are made in this thread....