I've encountered homophobes, misogynists, sexists, and people who don't care about animals.

[NYC_SKP]

And I think these characteristics are found in together in people and not often in isolation;

If a person is a sexist, they're likely also a homophobe and don't care about how animals are treated in the food industry.

If a person is homophobic, they probably don't give a shit about animals and are likely to be racist, too.

I'm speaking from experience here, I have a cousin who has killed dogs, uses the "n" word, even today, and has hit his wives and girlfriends.

Enlightened people aren't this way.

Enlightened people respect and see value in every living thing and they have empathy for every suffering creature.

Am I crazy, or am I right about this?

[1000words]

1. I tend to agree

Then again, from what I understand, Hitler absolutely loved dogs. I suppose there are always outliers.

[Agschmid]

2. You are mostly correct.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. My dear NYC_SKP...

I suspect you're right about this.

It would take a study with enough subjects to be completely sure, of course, but I know you're a careful and intelligent man who knows how to look.

I think you're right.

[NYC_SKP]

5. Hi Peggy!

I'm spoiled to death, I don't hang out with any of them. Any of the traits I named is a deal breaker, same for you I imagine.

My idiot cousin is now dying in a trailer out on a ranch, I can't bear to go out there though I do from time to time.

He wasn't a very nice older cousin growing up, either.

Damn people, what makes them this way I will never understand.

[ReRe]

24. One thing we do know...

... is they aren't like that when they are born. Unless they are slightly touched by some genetic anomaly from their ancestors, which usually isn't apparent at birth.

Some people have been wronged/neglected, usually by parents/caretakers starting from a very young age. Dysfunction is their reality.

Did you see, on DU yesterday, the photos of the shelter dogs that were being driven to their new homes? Remember how some of them were very sad and downright forlorn? They seemed broken.

Your cousin is kind of like that. Something/someone in life has broken him.

[NYC_SKP]

36. Yes, I think this is true. His brother was also an odd bird.

Their dad, my uncle John, was abusive and cruel.

[liberal_at_heart]

4. very few people are completely enlightened. Even liberals suffer from flaws such as

being self-righteous, arrogant, and mean spirited. Why do you think we have an ignore button and trash thread button option on DU?

[NYC_SKP]

7. I'd settle for moderately civilized and somewhat empathetic.

None of us are perfect but there's no excuse for defending sexism, animal abuse, homophobia, etc.

[LeftyMom]

6. The idea of interlocking oppressions is a powerful concept.

[ismnotwasm]

8. Those things tend to be part of the same dysfunction

Lack of introspection, lack of empathy, self centeredness/narcissism, heteronormative standards-- they all express themselves by attempts to hold to some sort of power, regardless of the harm or cost.

It's the justifying of these things that makes me nauseous

[freshwest]

19. +1

[silverweb]

9. No, you're not crazy.

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]I think that you're quite right, generally speaking, even though there are exceptions to any attempt at categorization of people.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

10. I think Christian religion can cause a person to

Love and care for animals and even display affection for women as long as....how would they say? "the woman acts lady like and knows her place" and then they can still hate gay people.

In general, I take your point, but I think it is highly based on a lot of individual background.

[Squinch]

82. But, don't you think that insisting that a woman

act against her own instincts and "act ladylike and know her place" is an expression of disdain for women?

It's the same as the attitude toward gay people: "Live your life the way I decree, not the way you were made. Stay in the box I have created for you, or I will slap you down."

[Cha]

11. I dunno but, it seems to describe the

republicons to tea.

[LittleBlue]

12. I think that is far too simplistic

That's like saying every Republican voter is a religious fundamentalist who owns assault rifles and worships Sarah Palin. I'm sure many are like that but it doesn't necessarily represent the Ron Paul crowd or the suburban fiscal conservatives. I've encountered many crazy right-wing animal lovers or deficit hawks who are otherwise what one would consider normal.

Every person is someone who is shaped by a unique life experience that alters their values, not to mention their unique genetic characteristics.

[NYC_SKP]

13. I was speaking to liklihoods, not absolutes.

That a person who's racist is more likely to be sexist, not that they necessarily are.

At the root are the same causes: ignorance, susceptibility to cultural bias, and a general lack of empathy.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. overt bigotry probably has some underlying factors (low iq, lack of empathy etc)

but i would argue that modern forms of prejudice are not that easy to detect and may not have the same underlying factors

[NYC_SKP]

16. I agree that there are shades, subtle forms of prejudice that each of us bear.

I'm referring more to the unabashed and vocal examples of those most common forms of bigotry; the kinds of people who have no shame, who openly defend their bigotry.

You know the types, I'm sure.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. i study prejudice. it's my area of expertise, hence the randomly pedantic answers

[bettyellen]

51. I love that about you, LOL.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

52. that i am randomly pedantic? cos that is a very odd thing to love about me

[bettyellen]

53. for me, it's the odd things that push it from "really like" to "will always love"

I am same myself on other topics, LOL. And grossly undereducated to boot, so I enjoy it hearing you weigh in on social issues. Speaking of love, Swag and Aitch are coming to NY for the holidays, will only see him from 12:30- 6 am New Years day since I'm away till then. Best catsitters in the world, I tell you.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

54. when are you in town? we should really get a drink soon

[bettyellen]

56. I am always in town lady, and yes we shall. you should give a shout out to Swag and wife...

Swag just loves you. If you haven't met Aitch yet- well, you are in for a treat. So smart, hilarious, really bent sense of humor. Awesome people. They will be around 12/25- 31. Me, I will PM you or FB message w/ details.

[BootinUp]

15. To be honest, I think it varies

Peoples prejudices are usually a result of their environment in my humble opinion. I have an acquaintance who is staunchly animal rights, and that is balanced by some kind of hatred for foreigners. On further prodding he reveals that he would rather kill humans than animals. Basically the point I am making is you can't generalize these things. I think in my friends case above, there might be some minor brain damage, but that is just a guess.

[seabeyond]

17. you are right. and anyone tells you different, well

[NYC_SKP]

20. Perfect!

LOL!

[freshwest]

18. No, not crazy, doing just fine, conscious and aware of what's going on. Enlightened. Even if... n/t

[Bonobo]

21. I agree.

But we might disagree on the speed to which people jump to conclusions about who is sexist, etc.

People have different reactions to people's opinions. Some people think you are sexist if you enjoy porn for example or if you think it is inappropriate to call a 6 year old a "sexual harasser".

[NYC_SKP]

22. Many of the battles are over details.

Most agree that "sexual harasser" was inapt for a six year old, but others were defending him as an innocent normal lad.

Anyone who read the article learned that the boy was a repeat nuisance, a molester by definition.

Another large share of the arguments are due to those who bark out an opinion without reading the back story.

I've done that.

A smaller number include people that just may have different points of view from the other majority.

Their points of view are just as valid as ours; every person is an expert in their own experience.

Oh, and...

And then there are disruptors who come around and bait authentic members.

[bettyellen]

55. I am shocked no one here thought this issue insulted all 6 year old boys... it never fails

when you say "some ____" half the thread will be, how dare you insult "all ____".
right there, they are full of shit.

[nomorenomore08]

38. Or people think you're anti-sex because you have reservations about the porn industry's

business practices. Or "misandrist" because you dislike unsolicited attention from strangers. Six of one, half-dozen of the other...

[Bonobo]

40. That's very true, I give you that.

If we are going to be fair and honest here, we should start by admitting that both sides have intentionally or at least through extreme insensitivity (but I think intent is there too) to anger, piss off, irritate and generally be pricks to each other with overstatement, snark, misstating each other's positions, and overall caricaturing each other.

And anger and bad behavior breeds more of the same.

Little attempt is made to find points of agreement and this, I think, is mostly because:
A) agreeing on discussion boards leads to silence
and
B) An enemy is needed to prove that one is fighting the "good fight". If they don't exist, they must be created.

It bores me and sometimes I wish it would just stop. But then I see a rock flying my way and I just wasn't raised to stand there and take one in the head.

BTW, I cannot respond to you in HOF as I am banned, but I saw your comment to me and think you're mostly right. I hold you in high regard and respect your voice a great deal.

[nomorenomore08]

44. Thanks for the positive words. And I agree that both "sides" have been guilty of caricaturing

each other, for sure.

[Deep13]

23. I wouldn't put the animal thing in with the others.

Frankly, considering the extent of human suffering in the world, I have a hard time being all that concerned with domestic animals. Seems like a luxury issue to me.

[BrotherIvan]

27. Since the suffering of these animals is brought about by humans

maybe if we gave a shit, we would realize we have the power to stop it. Humans are the only species on this planet who is torturing other species and fucking up the earth for everyone. We have some atonement to make for this. Or to put it another way, we, and only we, humans got ourselves into this mess.

[DLevine]

33. Well said.

I live in an extremely right wing neighborhood, and many people shoot stray cats for sport. It's awful, but I haven't been able to stop it. Most of these people are racist, sexist, gun-worshipping teabaggers.

[BrotherIvan]

64. That is so low

I do believe all the outward hate that anyone spews is actually from extreme self-hatred. They may act holier than thou or religiously pure, but scratch the surface and you see that they LOATHE themselves and everything in creation. To live in hate and fear means you are living in hell and you think that everyone should be there with you. Anyone who has so little respect for another living being is truly a piece of shit.

[sammythecat]

34. Empathy and pity for the suffering of animals

does not have to be at the expense of one's empathy and pity for the suffering of humans. You can extend those feelings as far as you want for free. "as far as you want" is the only limiting factor.

[BrotherIvan]

62. What you said!

I didn't know they were mutually exclusive and tend to find they feed and enrich each other.

[nikto]

25. There's a lot of truth in this, but there are exceptions...

This one's more like what we're talking about...

[siligut]

60. Wow, Donald Pleasence kept an iron grip on that scared cat

Reportedly, the noise made during the shooting of the film's grand finale on the volcano set scared Blofeld's white cat that it ran away. It wasn't found for days and it was eventually discovered hiding in some of the set's rafters. Apparently, footage of the scaredy cat wound up in the finished movie when Blofeld's security shutters are enforced.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062512/trivia?item=tr0732769

Now I am going to watch You Only Live Twice again to see if I can catch a glimpse of kitty in the rafters.

[DirtyDawg]

26. When your...

...fundamental, motivational, drivers are greed, prejudice and hate, any abhorrent behavioral act is predictable and, in fact, likely.

[hfojvt]

28. I think enlightenment is more like a path than a light switch

A light switch generally has two positions - off and on. I don't think people are like that, either enlightened or unenlightened.

It's certainly very hard to be completely free of biases and faults and ignorance and errors. Even I only manage it a couple days a week ( )

Although I guess you could start with a fairly basic choice. Either people are on the right path, or they are not. I liken it to a trip. In Kansas City, you can either face to the east and make your way to the city on the hill (Boston) or you can face to the west and make your way to sin city (Vegas).

Or did I say that backwards? You can face to the west and the City of Angels (Los Angeles) or to the east and that pit of corruption (D.C.).

Anyway, for the sake of metaphor, one direction is the right way, a path where somebody is trying to do good, trying to learn, trying to be a better person, to build a better world, or they are going in the other direction.

Some are going in the right direction, and others are not. Some are further along the path than others. Some far further.

Some, though, are not as far as they think they are. What I see your OP leaning towards is "hate". You hate, you have contempt for those others, those unenlightened ones. You want to talk about how imperfect, even deeply flawed they are.

I find that attitude to be unenlightened. I don't want to condemn or hurt or insult those who are on the wrong path or not as far along. What I want is to encourage them to turn around, to avoid getting lost, or getting weary in their own journey.

Maybe that's a lost cause with many people. Lord knows I have been very, very ineffective at changing any minds here, but there should be something more to enlightenment than just sitting on top of a mountain and throwing rocks or pointing fingers at all the fools down below.

[nomorenomore08]

35. Maybe he's weary of stupidity and cruelty? I know I am, nowadays...

[HappyMe]

45. Very well said.

I'm not particularly enamored with the need to label people and stuff them into the appropriate box.

Life and attitudes aren't black and white.

[quaker bill]

29. There is a person for every niche.

All possible combinations exist, if you meet enough folks. It is always bad to generalize.

It is true that often a whole suite of personality traits run together. But there are always exceptions to every rule. Rather than pre-judge, I allow the evidence to speak for itself.

[rucky]

32. "it's always bad to generalize"

I know what you mean, but that came out funny.

[DLevine]

30. I agree with you. Spot on. nt

[rucky]

31. Sometimes people have blind spots

but usually the root of the behavior you describe is a general lack of empathy.

[IronLionZion]

37. Maybe, but its still better to get to know unique individuals rather than to generalize

especially since so much of this is our perception. You and I may perceive someone as a bigot, but they may not think of themselves as a bigot. Or they may hold bigotry against a particular type of people for some reason or experience they have had and chose to generalize about all of those types of people. Yet still love their pets.

So it can be more of an individual thing rather than all of x are the same, or that if they believe x, then they must also believe y and z.

Just my $0.02

[Skidmore]

39. That is a very broad brush.

I think that our experiencs in life shape us as well and that people can incorporate new ways of thinking into their psyches as well. We all have our phobias and prejudices and not necessarily have the total constellation you are making assumptions about. Some of it has to do with the hardwiring. What you describe is a sociopath's personality. That has nothing to do with enlightenment but with lacking the ability to empathize with others and make moral or ethical decisions.

[LisaLynne]

42. Ha, I just posted that it may be a lack of empathy and missed that in your post.

I agree -- I don't think this explains everybody, but it really could be the trait that explains a lot of them.

[NYC_SKP]

43. Not always found together, just more likely to find more than one in the same soul. nt

[Squinch]

83. It is a broad brush but

it has sparked an interesting discussion.

[LisaLynne]

41. I think that can be true.

Maybe just a lack of empathy? An inability to understand the feelings of others or to see the worth of beings beyond themselves?

[life long demo]

46. I agree with you wholeheartedly

I think if you scratch the surface of this type of person you would find quite a few "defects". But as someone said, babies and little ones aren't naturally like this, they have to learn the hatred from somewhere. And thank you for including the treatment of animals.

[Enthusiast]

47. K&R! And many of these same people are happily uninformed

about most everything. And as they described Dubya Bush, incurious.

[vanlassie]

49. Glad you mentioned Dubya. If you dig, you will find that when he was a baby

he was neglected by his mother. The sister had died, and Barbara was unavailable. Not that she had much to offer in the first place I suspect.
Neglect does not always look obvious. But for humans under the age of three evidence is clear that if needs are not met, hardwiring for empathy does not happen. I believe we have many people walking around with a big piece missing.
The argument that SOME children are neglected and turn out "Fine" does not prove anything. Every child is different. Some need less and some need quite a lot of empathic care and no one can predict, unless they truly know that individual child.
Custodial care is not sufficient for most under three. It can result in permanent brain damage which includes attachment disorders and sociopathy in the worst cases.

[Enthusiast]

65. That's sad.

[el_bryanto]

48. People as things

I think when you start denying people their complexity or their humanity - start casting them as something different than yourselves than you are walking down a dark road.

That said let's not pat ourselves on the back too much; we are just as capable of doing it at as well.

Bryant

[treestar]

57. Not completely

I was talking recently to a black very religious Christian who is against homosexuality because he interprets the Bible does not approve it.

But that's a distinct group. With whites it's likely you're right. Though I have a relative who is all those things except homophobic since he had a gay stepson and saw the light

[Vashta Nerada]

58. I agree, actually.

[alarimer]

59. What it boils down to is a complete and utter lack of empathy.

A simple inability to imagine themselves in anyone else's shoes. They think their experience of the world is all that there is and all that matters.

[polichick]

61. Empathy only exists in highly evolved people...

so this makes perfect sense.

[vanlassie]

66. Lack of empathy is the hallmark of sociopathy.

And largely preventable. Yes it is sad. BTW the Unibomber is another person who had a documented detachment from his mother at a young age. She herself said she believed it was the cause of his pathology. As I recall he was hospitalized at some length and at that time family visiting was strictly limited in some faculties.

[polichick]

67. Such an interesting topic - one book I really like on this is...

The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout

[vanlassie]

70. Have not read that one. Learned a lot from

Children without a Conscious by Ken Magid and Thou Shalt Not Be Aware by Alice Miller. I will look for yours!

[polichick]

73. Those look good too. I read Miller's Drama of the Gifted Child...

Last edited Sat Dec 14, 2013, 08:54 AM - Edit history (1)

She's really good.

[polly7]

84. I'd agree it's hallmark of sociopathy, but not that it's largely preventable

for many of those who show it. I can think of at least half a dozen people I've known in my life that, when I asked 'how would you feel if it were you, etc.', just couldn't wrap their mind about why they should even care. It was like they lacked even the capability to imagine the pain someone else might be experiencing.

Wasn't T. Kaczynski in some sort of mind-control experiments also? Probably much later after he showed the traits that possibly required the hospitalization you mention, though.

[vanlassie]

87. Failure to form empathy is hormone driven in early years.

It's true, they CAN'T wrap their minds around things requiring empathy. The reason it confuses us is that they can seem pretty normal in most respects. But there is something missing. It didn't get put in place during the first three years of life. In a nutshell, (and I am not an expert, but have read lots about this) excessive hormones cortisol and adrenaline can interfere with the formation of neurological pathways in the brain. If it does not happen when it should, then it's too late. Stress in babies and young children can potentially be extremely harmful, if it is chronic or excessive. Stress can be a slow thing like having no one who really cares deeply around when you need them, to things like the hospitalization that left Ted K alone and isolated at nine months (for fucks sake) for days or longer.

I assume many babies make it through as long as they have ONE person who cares, even if that is a nanny, but they have to BE THERE. Fear and need cause excessive hormones to flow. The child can LOOK pretty OK. But they are not.

I have heard it explained that emotional neglect in the first three years can lead to sociopathy (failure to form empathy) Whereas, emotional neglect after the first three years can lead to neurotic tendencies.

[joeybee12]

63. I agree mainly, however, when it comes to animals, sometimes the most bigoted people

have a soft spot for them...just watch Fux and Friends in the a.m.

[BainsBane]

68. I've observed some who care about animals

but no one else, and certainly not women. The other attributes you describe wouldn't surprise me either.

Chin up.

[NYC_SKP]

69. Sickening, isn't it? Hitler loved dogs, someone said....

Seemed to hate people.

Hitler was an outlier, I guess.

I'll bet he hated cats. It's a selective sort of bigotry.

Thank you, hugs all around!

[vanlassie]

71. Alice Miller talks about Hitler's childhood... Want to guess how that went?

[NYC_SKP]

72. Now I'm going to have to look that up.

I imagine that, like my cousin, it wasn't pleasant.

[Packerowner740]

74. Personal experiences aren't always the best indicators

I try not to paint everything with a broad brush,

[nikto]

75. It is impossible for a fiercely rightwing Conservative to be enlightened

Nah. Gon'. Happen.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

76. I don't think that's been my experience

I know politicians (not in the US) who are quite progressive on issues like same-sex marriage and GLBTQ issues but have shown some vile prejudice toward racial minorities in the past

Similarly, I have friends and acquaintances who are very progressive on racial issues but have attitudes toward homosexuality that are very reactionary.

I think my experience has been the opposite to yours

[NYC_SKP]

77. Respectfully, the notion isn't that all features present in the same subject...

The proposition is that any one prejudice might be an indicator of other, similar, biases.

This post was inspired by a conversation with a person who watched the movie Blackfish on NetFlix and came away with the feeling that what Sea World does with their marine mammals, specifically their Orcas, is justified toward the effort of enlightening visitors to their theme parks.

I strongly disagree.

[idwiyo]

78. I personally know a few extreme bigots who love thier pets.

And never mind when it comes to bigotry and love of horses.

[Spider Jerusalem]

79. I think that's a rather shallow assessment, honestly.

If you're talking about overt racism and sexism and homophobia, sure, there's probably a correlation. But prejudice tends to be subtle and more nuanced and less overtly expressed, for most people. "I'm okay with civil unions but marriage is between a man and a woman." "Black people can be just as racist as whites." "Affirmative action and racial quotas discriminate unfairly against white people." "I'm a men's rights activist and I think feminism is discriminatory." These are all examples of acculturated prejudice based on dominant social norms. (And I'd be willing to bet that if I went and looked I could very probably find similar statements made by posters on this forum.)

And I'm not sure there are very many enlightened people, by that definition.

[OwnedByCats]

80. While not all people who like animals

are the best kind of people, I'm not too impressed with those who don't at least have respect for them. If you're an animal hater, I don't even want to know you. It makes me really not trust them.

I'm sure there are exceptions to this, I just can't think of any off the top of my head.

[leftyladyfrommo]

85. I don't trust anyone who has no empathy for animals.

That one is a deal breaker for me.

[OwnedByCats]

90. Oh me too, can't have any trust for those people

I won't become good friends with people who have no compassion for them, and made sure I married someone who loved animals too - because the way I am about them, no relationship would ever work if they didn't love them too.

[leftyladyfrommo]

91. I'm exactly the same way.

Animals always have been and always will be a huge part of my life. I would never be happy in a life with someone who didn't care about animals.

[Vattel]

81. You are so right.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. I have seen conservatives who love dogs and liberals who are deeply ambivalent toward kids.

The omission of kids from your list I find interesting.

So... I think you're not right about this.

[NYC_SKP]

89. Conservatives aren't in the equation. There are plenty of liberal bigots.

Just look around.

And ambivalence toward a group is different from outright hatred.

The proposition isn't "if A, then always B"; it's "if A, then often B, as well".