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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNaturopaths and the creep of pseudo-science
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/12/15/naturopaths_and_the_creep_of_pseudoscience.htmlOntario naturopaths are pushing hard to become a self-regulating profession, with expanded rights to prescribe drugs and order tests. Thankfully, the Ontario Medical Association is pushing back.
This is not a turf war there are more than enough patients out there. Nor is the resistance from the medical community founded on a fear of loss of professional status. This is about patient safety and, more fundamentally, the role of science in the Canadian health care system.
Naturopathic medicine, despite its claims to the contrary, is not evidence-based. Given this reality, provincial health ministries need to carefully consider the long-term implications including the legal and ethical challenges of formally legitimizing the pseudo-scientific.
If naturopathic medicine were governed by science, as practitioners increasingly claim, they would not provide: detoxification services, homeopathic remedies, most herbal remedies, and cosmetic facial acupuncture. But these types of services are the core of naturopathic medicine.
Scarce health-care dollars should be spent on science-based medicine, not the collection of woo being peddled by naturopathic "doctors".
Sid

eqfan592
(5,963 posts)TM99
(8,352 posts)Naturopaths in Arizona get the equivalence of a medical school training with all the same anatomy, physiology, chemistry, pathology, etc. courses but they are also trained in using alternative & complementary treatments that work with, and not against, the allopathic DO's & MD's.
That training has positive consequences where these men and women think 'outside' of the box far more than the allopathic physicians that I have dealt with. As a pushing 40 year old man who had suffered with medical problems for two years with no MD or DO willing to explore outside of standard practices, my NMD was a welcome relief. He was the one who ordered labs that showed that I had a pituitary tumor that was reeking havoc on my entire endocrine system. I received referrals from him to the endocrinologist who confirmed the diagnosis. After surgery and during chemo, his 'naturopathic woo' supported my body in dealing with the harsh chemicals necessary for treatment. When I lost weight, the herbs he prescribed helped with the nausea and weight gain I sorely needed. His 'woo' of B12 injections and vitamin & herbal IV's boosted my immune system so that I didn't get secondary infections bacterial or viral. I also received acupuncture and tried homeopathy, the first helping me greatly, and the second only minimally but still noticeably.
There was not one bit of animosity from him towards the other MD's involved with my treatment and care. But quite a few MD's and nurses on the other side, even when observing the positive effects his 'remedies' had on me during all of this, were just assholes about it. The compassion he and his staff showed and still show was amazing compared to, again, many of the MD's that I have dealt with over the last seven years.
I needed both forms of medicine, and both worked for me. Call it anecdotal if you want, but I have observed this with others here as well. The OMA might want to look to those US states that train, license, and regulate the naturopathic profession. In these states, bullshit that could be harmful is dealt with swiftly and definitively. Pitting themselves against naturopaths does not help patients. It takes away options, choices, and support that can be used as a complement to the care & 'medicine' they prescribe.
When the allopathic medical professions start to deal with the harm they cause then they can worry about the 'woo'. The 3rd leading cause of death behind heart disease and cancer in the US is preventable medical error. Close to a half a million patients a year go to the hospital for surgery and care and die from errors that were completely avoidable.
Are there some dangers associate with herbs and vitamins? Sure. Over a ten year period several hundred died from the use of Ephedra. Compare this to Vioxx which killed anywhere from 10's of thousands to as many as 55,000 in four years. Several hundred, Sid, versus 50,000+? Yup, I am terrified of the 'woo'.
There is no grand conspiracy here. This is just old-fashion human behavior - greed, power, and control. Once gotten, it is rarely shared or relinquished.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)can legally perform chiropractic treatment, and Tufts University (and a couple other state Universities that I can't remember off the top of my head, maybe Colorado and Arizona) offer training in alternative treatments such as accupuncture and herbs.
This saved my dog, Jake's, life 6 years ago. He had a neck injury that was treated allopathically for 6+ months with metacam and rest on 3 occasions: first with the initial injury and next for pain between his shoulder blades and finally for pain in the lumbar region. The 2nd vet diagnosed him with moderate hip dysplasia, (nonexistant) herniated discs in the lumbar region and a (nonexistant) mass on his liver. By the time she was through (mis)treating him, he was passing chyme instead of poop, eating 3-4 pounds of food/day, carrying his bowl around begging for more, and starving in front of my eyes.
After her 2nd or 3rd voice message telling me "just keep doing what you're doing. you're doing all you can," I spent the night on the internet researching and the next day on the phone calling every major animal hospital within a day's drive.
The hospital an hour away referred me to a veterinarian/chiropracter/accupuncturist, who took us in immediately on an emergency basis. His had no mass on his liver and no herniated discs. L4-7 had subluxations, along with C3-4, and a couple between his shoulder blades (I forget which ones they were t-something I think).
One 15-20 minute chiropractic/accupuncture treatment eliminated *all* his symptoms. He was pain free and drug free. The only thing the other vet was correct on was the dysplasia. We returned every 2 weeks for a couple sessions to keep his vertebrae properly aligned while his sore and strained muscles, tendons and ligaments healed, and then annually for checkups for another 2 years.
Call it woo. Call it anecdotal. All I know is she saved my dog's life.
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)It is not a real word
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)except to Woosters
H2O Man
(76,151 posts)come from? Those that are not "made up"?
Response to MattBaggins (Reply #158)
Name removed Message auto-removed
niyad
(122,056 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)I think this holds true for most folks, including the medical community.
I have posted about the work I do with the Preemie Growth Project, and what we have learned is nothing short of stunning, but the political battles I am forced to deal with to get this investigated, when the basic concepts are standard industry practice for the veterinarians/animal husbandry industry, are simply flat out stunning. I would love to blame it on some "global pharmaceutical conspiracy" but the truth is that getting things investigated "outside the realm of current understanding" depends on funding, personality, prestige, and a host of barriers that those outside of the situation have zero comprehension about -- and while some people might think "grad students" are a dime a dozen, if you aren't in the field, finding them to help analyze data is "challenging" to say the least!
The first thing to be addressed is the role of the "clinician" who sees patients and uses what they've learned in their schooling (which has some insane issues strictly there - don't get me started on the standard "residents should work 90+ hour work weeks, because sleep deprivation is a great way to train people!" , and the fact we keep getting the words "stunning" and "never seen anything like it" reported by the physicians and parents BUT NOT ONE PHYSICIAN HAS *INITIATED* CONTACT WITH US. (I have lost count of the numbers I have spoken to, and apparently the protocol is very slowly gaining some traction with pediatricians - maybe. Sigh.)
I choose to believe they aren't oblivious to the "miracles" they are seeing (direct quotes), but instead think they are happy to see patients who do not need their assistance / can then move on to the next who *does* need their help. This may be naive, but it is how I don't end up howling with rage because, while I am a woman of faith, I know that the "miracle of science" is that you can repeat the results, and with the number of babies/children we've done that with now, somebody should bloody well be paying attention -- And They Aren't.
(Disclaimer: I was instructed by an NIH physician to write an article for one of the medical journals; when I contacted the journal, I was told that there was no spot for an article by someone like me under the submission guidelines. Yeah, team!)
And then there are the "researchers" who are very busy dealing with their own projects and the politics of their various organizations. I have lost count of the number who are interested in what we are seeing, and really think "someone should investigate that" -- really? What a bloody good idea!
And then, while this takes YEARS to get through, and eventually does get the rigorous formal investigation it should get (which will take years more), the very conservative organizations in charge of things lose their credibility with the people who can investigate it for themselves, and see the results that cannot be duplicated by the methods currently in use *because they don't know how to look at the whole picture*.
Oh, and don't get me started on the folks who are running the organizations that supposedly advocate for the people affected by these conditions -- nice people, but unless I want to donate a couple of thousand dollars to each organization to attend their conventions as a vendor (with nothing to sell, by the way), well, the space is all filled up. (To be fair, they use the conventions to cover the operating costs of the different organizations, which support the conventions, which are great opportunities to get everyone up to date on the latest research data, and getting published is Really Important.)
I am struggling with the summary for the Project, and how to explain things that seem (at this point) so blatantly obvious to anyone who spends more than five minutes thinking about things. To be honest, at this point I am convinced that if someone like myself can see it (with the initial data coming from reading about how to eat while pregnant, then seeing what happened to my own children, then reading the d*mn medical textbooks and journals and putting the pieces together, then seeing what happened to the other children who followed the same protocol), What The Heck Is Wrong With These People that they didn't figure it out already?
Eh, my little rant about my little corner of the planet. But swear to heavens, the next person who says, "well, if what you are saying is true, then they will come beating a path to your door, which means you are not telling the truth!" is going to get an earful.
And don't ask me to say anything nice about the March of Dimes. Seriously, at this point, I think those folks are just in business to make sure they keep making money.
Grrr...
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)pnwmom
(109,718 posts)al·lop·a·thy [uh-lop-uh-thee] Show IPA
noun
the method of treating disease by the use of agents that produce effects different from those of the disease treated (opposed to homeopathy ).
Origin:
183545; < German Allopathie. See allo-, -pathy
Related forms
al·lo·path·ic [al-uh-path-ik] Show IPA , adjective
al·lo·path·i·cal·ly, adverb
Dictionary.com Unabridged
madinmaryland
(65,272 posts)
TM99
(8,352 posts)There is no such thing as 'woo' either. It is a made up word in the last decade. At least allopathic is several hundred years old from an original German term.
DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)treated my naturapaths with some good results. they never did anything that could harm me. actually it was a naturapath who prescribed medical marijuana for my pain because she was concerned that the vicodin would harm my liver.
i had a car accident years ago and had airbag burns on my chest and arm. the airbag actually tore my watch off my arm. before going home my husband took me to my naturapath. she gave me arnica pills and arnica cream. within a few days the airbag burns were gone, she also did great spinal manipulation.
for the last few years my dermatologist who is very well known started giving arnica and arnica cream after injections of fillers to speed up the healing.
intersectionality
(106 posts)Cascading interventions that endanger mom and baby so surgery has to be done causing section rates hovering in the 30%-40% rate, but varying widely by city (and even moreso by hospital). US healthcare experts created standard practices that leave us with one of the highest birth mortality rates in the developed world. I mean, I get why we should expose this specific problem, but let's not play - the US medical industry's most common practices are oftentimes driven by people intending to make a profit as quickly as possible, health of the patient(s) and evidence be damned.
Bernardo de La Paz
(52,438 posts)The Republican solution: cut Food Stamps and fight ObamaCare. That way they will always have lots of moochers victims they can blame for the ills of society and to pump up the Prison-Industrial Complex. All the better to prosecute the War on Women, too.
loudsue
(14,087 posts)if not faster, than naturopathy. People who don't get that "science" is BASED on nature ("natur"opathy), then they are living in some bizzaro reality that doesn't exist as far as the human body goes.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)It's called the Scientific Method, (Use google for more info) which uses empirical. evidence and testable, repeatable, falsifiable results.
It has little to do with "nature" in the manner you imply.
loudsue
(14,087 posts)Nature is what makes the scientific method WORK.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Of the word "nature" in regard to the topic.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)and chemicals that can maintain a type of homeostasis internally. Right?
Also, when we allow "nature" to take its course, almost half of children died before the age of 5 and the average life expectancy was about half what it is today. I'll take those horrible chemicals(that we require to live) and surgery, when necessary, over whatever you are peddling.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)I'm not an all or nothing type - I think naturopathy should be the first line of treatment for most illnesses, with the more extreme measures to be resorted to only when natural methods fail - doctors are way too eager to prescribe medicine and surgery when neither is really recommended. Why do they do it? You know perfectly well why.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)can you tell me what makes it innately superior to "traditional" or as I like to call it "tested" medicine?
Response to reformist2 (Reply #188)
Humanist_Activist This message was self-deleted by its author.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)phantom power
(25,966 posts)The entire concept of "self regulation" is fucking ridiculous. I can't believe these proposals are ever taken seriously.
Tumbulu
(6,489 posts)makes me really feel like trusting them.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)bhikkhu
(10,763 posts)Science has the necessary tools to recognize and correct errors.
Naturopathy (and homeopathy, and others) is generally safer in that it generally engages nothing more than the placebo effect. As long as the sickness is only in the mind they work fine.
Well put. It's so odd that people criticize change in science as if it's a bad thing.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)it was not approved in this country even though it had been approved in Europe. The head of the FDA said the studies were inadequate and wanted more done before approving it here.
So Europe had the "epidemic" of thalidomide babies. The only ones born here were to mothers who'd gotten the drug elsewhere.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)MineralMan
(148,446 posts)The FDA refused to approve it, and that saved a lot of American women and their children from its harmful effects. That's a good example of how evidence-based medicine is regulated for the protection of patients. Of course, there are situations where medications ended up being more harmful than beneficial results warranted. In those cases, the regulation was not sufficient. In actual fact, more regulation, not less, is needed.
For "natural" remedies, regulation is almost non-existent, despite the harm done in many cases by people relying on untested or even completely useless "natural" remedies.
The alternative medicine sector resists all regulation, which should be a warning signal to everyone. Despite, for example, the multi-billion dollar pseudo-pharmaceutical industry's resistance to regulation, exactly that kind of regulation is what's needed for the protection of those who may be duped into believing that some alternative treatment is better than normal medical treatment. People's lives have been lost through that belief. Far too many people's lives have been lost by substituting ineffective or worthless treatment for treatment that actually can help them.
If the alternative medical community wants to be respected, it needs to allow itself to be examined. Until then, it is woo, pure and simple. Any practitioner who uses homeopathic remedies, for example, is a fraud. Homeopathy should be prohibited altogether. Yet, many naturopaths use it on a regular basis, thus duping their patients into thinking they are getting some sort of actual treatment, instead of just water. Homeopathy is a fraud.
politichew
(230 posts)They use people's fear of "the man" to sell them modern day snake oil.
It's sad.
longship
(40,416 posts)They are deeply steeped in woo.
But as you see from the responses to your post, people like their woo.
I'll R&K anyway.
TM99
(8,352 posts)I just don't like bullshit.
Some of us prefer not to view medicine as some ideological battlefield pitting drawing up sides against imaginary enemies like 'woo' when the profession has plenty of its own issues including deadly problems like medical errors and whose true stated goal should be about alleviating the suffering of patients and healing them.
longship
(40,416 posts)TM99
(8,352 posts)Read my first post in this thread. Medical error accounts for 3rd highest number of deaths in the US, and it is entirely preventable. Please provide data to show that the deaths from licensed NMD's using complementary medicine even comes close to that figure. You won't be able to so you keep spouting the 'woo' bullshit.
Same story, different day.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)One, medical error isn't even on the fucking charts, as far as cause of death in the US goes.
second, asking for data about NMD about that, is about the same as asking for data about ice cream truck drivers.
TM99
(8,352 posts)1) http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/871/56/
2) If you are going to discuss the dangers of NMD's, the harm they cause, and the deaths, please be prepared to back it up with rational arguments and data.
If not, you are just spouting an irrational and emotional argument against 'woo' that is bullshit.
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)Ms. Toad
(35,878 posts)doesn't make the research bad.
Here is a link to the underlying article, published in JAMA - the Jouranal of the American Medical Association, from which the data is taken: http://silver.neep.wisc.edu/~lakes/iatrogenic.pdf
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)and the same bad research is being used over and over.
Those death estimates are down right silly.
Ms. Toad
(35,878 posts)and explain specifically the errors you find in the report.
It was solid enough for the AMA (not known as a purveyor of hogwash) to publish it. Feel free to pick it apart, but merely repeating that it is hogwash is not a scientifically appropriate response - as long as you're insisting your objections are based in science, you ought to be able to provide science based reasons for rejecting the analysis.
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)and debunked. Please feel free to examine the research used and track down the original studies and see why they are so flawed.
Bad models. Bad data sets. Bad interpretation of results by people LOOKING to claim iatrogenic deaths are high.
I will do one for you... This bit of bunk is used in that delightfully silly piece.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9555760
Ms. Toad
(35,878 posts)You've been provided a link to the article, please provide specific concerns using the information from the original JAMA article.
Just claiming hogwash over and over again is not an science based, or otherwise appropriate, argument.
Feel free to link to another peer reviewed article debunking it. Or to specific discussions on DU which do more than make conclusory arguments about it.
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)It speaks for itself.
It was a horrible analysis of incomplete data from a few American hospitals with a pathetically broad definition of adverse reactions.
It was a flawed study that the "squawk itatrogenic" crowd has been misusing ad nauseum
Ms. Toad
(35,878 posts)Total US death certificates citing medication errors (based on an actual review of death certificates): 244,388 from 1976 through 2006. That makes the average deaths per year from medication errors 7,883. Phillips DP, Barker GE, A July spike in fatal medication errors: a possible effect of new medical residents, J Gen Intern Med. 2010 Aug;25(8) 74-9.
Number reported in the Starfield study: 7000 deaths due to medication errors/ year.
That "horrible analysis of incomplete data" is pretty darn close to the actual count from an individual review of all US death certificates over 31 years - for the first statistic I checked.
So you might want to try again to actually support your conclusory statements with some evidence based analysis.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Not according to the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm
The third cause of death, according to the CDC, is chronic lower respiratory diseases.
I'm more inclined to believe the CDC over an anonymous poster on an online discussion forum.
TM99
(8,352 posts)Barbara Starfield, MD, of Johns Hopkins School of Public Health published in the JAMA in 2000?
That was the result of her findings, and things have not changed since then, only worsened.
But hey, I am just an anonymous poster on an online discussion forum that does his research.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Until you do, I don't believe a damn word.
Ms. Toad
(35,878 posts)(Not that it would have been that hard to look up the article from the link that was provided)
http://silver.neep.wisc.edu/~lakes/iatrogenic.pdf
TM99
(8,352 posts)and others have provided further ones.
Funny how those who attack 'woo believers' are such blind disbelievers themselves.
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)First off I HIGHLY doubt your claim that medical arror deaths are so high.
Second that has NOTHING to do with the fact that naturopathy is nonsense.
TM99
(8,352 posts)That's all they are.
I provided links and others provided direct links to the research. Doubt all your want but isn't that just the flip side of blind belief?
Naturopathy has a wide variety of treatment methods and modalities. Some like homeopathy are being shown to be nothing more than placebo. Others like nutrition, herbal medicine, lifestyle management, and acupuncture (to name just a few) have plenty of research and empirical evidence to back up their effectiveness.
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)to back it up.
You try to make it seem as if eating well and exercising are something actual doctors don't know about?
Naturopathy is still bunk. Vitalism is nonsense.
TM99
(8,352 posts)a fundamentalist Christian's.
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture (Main site for the subject)
Yup, the NIH has done exactly zero LEGITIMATE research.
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)It was pet project of Hatch and Harkin to force the NIH to waste funds on voodoo projects. It's entire existence is due to the fact that none of the woo crappie passes the smell test of actual clinical trials.
NCAM is a joke and ought to be disbanded. It's a scam organization headed by people who want to slip bullshit under the radar.
Complete joke.
TM99
(8,352 posts)You are not the one who decides if something is a 'joke' or not. It is not a waste of money by the NIH in my opinion to fund research to study the effectiveness of a cheaper and extremely safe alternative to pain management as it is currently practiced today, which bluntly is abysmally done.
These studies are as legitimate as the fast-track FDA ones for unproven pharmaceuticals that consumers have been hurt by repeatedly since its implementation. These studies are as legitimate as any other if they follow the 'rules' which they do.
There is nothing on this page that suggests even remotely that it is a 'scam organization headed by people who want to slip bullshit under the radar'.
http://nccam.nih.gov/about/ataglance
I even looked up their current FY 2013 funding. It is $120.7 Million. That is literally a drop in the bucket in the FY 2013 3.45 trillion dollar budget.
The only one peddling bullshit is you.
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)their crap has no basis in reality... Just really really really believe that it works.
TM99
(8,352 posts)is you and your ilk.
I am done discussing it -- well attempting to do so -- rationally with someone with a rigid mind full of emotional beliefs.
zappaman
(20,618 posts)
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)The pseudo-science nutbag that spread it around failed to supply any evidence at all to support the assertion.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)And that simply is not true.
TM99
(8,352 posts)and it tends to deny the study of other forms of medicine or healing like acupuncture and/or naturopathy for various reasons.
I will quote the Wikipedia article now for a discussion of its criticisms and issues:
Although evidence-based medicine is regarded as the gold standard of conventional clinical practice,[citation needed] there are a number of limitations and criticisms of its use,[2] many of which remain unresolved despite nearly two centuries of debate.[37]
EBM produces quantitative research, especially from randomized controlled trials (RCTs). Accordingly, results may not be relevant for all treatment situations.[38]
RCTs are expensive, influencing research topics according to the sponsor's interests.
There is a lag between when the RCT is conducted and when its results are published.[39]
There is a lag between when results are published and when these are properly applied.[40]
Certain population segments have been historically under-researched (racial minorities and people with co-morbid diseases), and thus the RCT restricts generalizing.[41]
Not all evidence from an RCT is made accessible. Treatment effectiveness reported from RCTs may be different than that achieved in routine clinical practice.[42]
Published studies may not be representative of all studies completed on a given topic (published and unpublished) or may be unreliable due to the different study conditions and variables.[43]
EBM applies to groups of people but this does not preclude clinicians from using their personal experience in deciding how to treat each patient. One author advises that "the knowledge gained from clinical research does not directly answer the primary clinical question of what is best for the patient at hand" and suggests that evidence-based medicine should not discount the value of clinical experience.[28] Another author stated that "the practice of evidence-based medicine means integrating individual clinical expertise with the best available external clinical evidence from systematic research".[1]
Hypocognition (the absence of a simple, consolidated mental framework that new information can be placed into) can hinder the application of EBM.[44]
The issues boil down to problems with research based science and patient driven clinical experiential practice. And as others have mentioned through out this thread, money and power can corrupt any human endeavor including 'evidence-based medicine'. Drugs get approved that shouldn't be. Medical errors rack up countless preventable deaths instead of fixing those errors with proper money and resources. Just as allopathic medicine has research that backs up some aspects and doesn't others, its time to do the research on complimentary forms of healing as well. Some will stand up, some will be only placebos, and some will be discounted as useless if not harmful. To date, 'useless' has not been as harmful as critics of naturopathy, Chinese medicine, etc. have claimed.
The problem many of us, myself included have, is this. When so-called self-proclaimed scientific rationalists start throwing around such emotionally charged words as 'woo' and immediately close their minds to the research that is even out there in such fields as psychoneuroimmunology, NIH studies showing the effectiveness of acupuncture in pain management, etc., they are frankly anything BUT scientific or rational.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Naturopathy lacks the empirical evidence to support its efficacy.
And without any evidence to support its efficacy (usually because the results of a scientific study dont produce any) we k ow that it's not doing what it claims its doing.
as mentioned in another reply in this thread, naturopathic treatments include things as diverse as acupuncture, herbal medicine, homeopathy, nutrition, and lifestyle management. Outside of homeopathy, all of those areas of practice have been studied empirically, showing positive results both in research and in their clinical application, and are still ignored. Why?
Is it because there is only a focus on 'woo' and not what naturopathy actually is?
Is it because it will challenge financial monopolies?
So yes, many if not most aspects of a licensed NMD's medical practice involves treatments that are a major part of evidence based medicine if that is strictly about the empirical evidence and efficacy of treatment.
Rex
(65,616 posts)NOT saying that THAT might be it...but that is TOTALLY IT!
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)with outright bullshit that is impossible to work like homeopathy?
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Lump homeopathy in with any "alternative" treatments and you know immediately that the speaker (writer) doesn't now what the hell they are talking about
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Look below, I'm debating with someone who thinks herbal teas are a homeopathic remedy! People need to learn what the hell they are talking about.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)... over and over on the subject.
I didn't scroll down .... but, it is often a kindness to provide a definition of homeopathy. Hopefully, they really do not believe homeopathy is even possible ...?
TM99
(8,352 posts)try to keep up.
Opinionated assholes start throwing around meaningless emotionally charged words like 'woo' with regards to naturopathy.
Here in the US, 22 states license and regulate NMD's. Do you even know what the fuck that means?
NMD's use a variety of treatment modalities. Out of the ones mentioned, homeopathy is the only one that has not had research that supports the claims of the users outside of a placebo effect. I have no problem acknowledging that. But the remaining modalities that are the bulk of an NMD's clinical practice DO have evidence to show their effectiveness - i.e. nutrition and lifestyle management.
NMD's in these states that also allow for the training and prescribing of drugs & doing minor surgery work hand in hand with allopathic EBM. I have chronic BPH and am prone to UTI's. My NMD can prescribe an antibiotic for a full blown infection AND suggest the use of cranberry extract for preventive care. And here is the empirical research to back up such a usage -
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/263426.php
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)that it could work, but that it is absolutely impossible to actually work, so lumping it in with stuff that does work just damages their credibility.
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)and have not been shown to do squat.
TM99
(8,352 posts)Please. There is tons of research out there used by allopathic MD's & DO's daily in their treatment of heart disease, diabetes, etc. from the Mediterranean Diet to exercising 30 minutes a day, to Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction.
Science is not immune to the influence of corporate marketing and money. Nor is it perfect in its method of generally treating a lot of research as 'isolated' instead of interconnected; I'm thinking of the GM research that doesn't take into account the multitude of interactions / combinations with the actual real world.
Science also has it's share of dogma, sacred truths, and hierarchy that are reluctant to change direction if 'new' ideas threaten it.
Of course, same applies to naturopathy - or *any* human activity - the error is thinking one system is perfect, when it is actually made of of real people. Or thinking that a perfectly 'logical' system would in any case be the right system - logical systems thinking by our top scientists in the 1950's 'logically' lobbied for nuking the Russians.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)temporary311
(957 posts)the Moon Bombing threads.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Then again, there are way too many people in this thread who seem to want us to live in grass huts and have as much as 1 in 3 women die in childbirth because "science is poison".
Locrian
(4,523 posts)"Science" does not exist by itself - it's a human activity. And like it or not, subject to our 'humans' frailties and limitations / filters of what we call reality.
Stick your head in the sand, but until you realize that simple fact - you're no better than the supporters of the theocracies of old.
Don't think that makes me a supporter of magik fairy crystals and stuff. I abhor real 'woo'. I just see too much blind faith in 'science' that doesn't take into account the actual complexities of the real world - but dismisses any legitimate challenge as woo. Of course that doesn't make science bad, as it is the best we (fallible) people have.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)My only reasonable assumption is that you are ignorant of the scientific method.
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)unlike woo though, it doesn't need to make them up pit of thin air.
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)The problems in healthcare are not an excuse to go off the deep end into a giant lake of steaming bullshit
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Chiropractic, acupuncture, natural herbal remedies, massage therapy - you name it, we use it.
Why? Because we love to throw away our money?
Nope, because it works. With animals you don't get a "placebo" effect. They can't "fake" a cure. There's either a result or there isn't.
These sport horses are competitive athletes - they are monitored, scrutinized and evaluated to the nth degree every single day - our vets work closely with, and oftentimes prescribe, all of the "woo" we use.
Tumbulu
(6,489 posts)which is not the sign of a true scientist.
Sort of sad, really. But anyone actually producing things and growing crops or animals understands.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)If you can actually provide some evidence that isn't torn to shreds for being a load of crap to begin with, then maybe we can talk.
Tumbulu
(6,489 posts)reality, and cause and effect are part of the problem.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)...I think the problem with an unwillingness to observe reality is NOT on the part of science.
Tumbulu
(6,489 posts)but a whole big group on DU who claim to be scientists and or skeptics (as though this is some technical term) refuse to allow themselves to observe anything whose proposed mechanism of activity makes little or no intellectual sense to them. So, they simply refuse to acknowledge it, or try to understand how or why it could be.
Very limited and fundamentalist in my book, Exactly what they make fun of all the time.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)Because it sounds to me like you're describing scepticism of things for which there is no physical evidence, and if so, that's by definition NOT science.
Tumbulu
(6,489 posts)who posts anything about responses to homeopathic remedies.
They will not agree to fathom that there can possibly be any response to them, simply because it is impossible that they could work.
People post all sorts of examples of how they worked for them, but all they can post is how it is impossible that the explanation of their activity could explain it. But never will they acknowledge the reality of the posters who respond. It simply cannot work, so all evidence is ignored or dismissed as crazy.
very tiring.
Real scientists would be curious of the outcomes and then seek to understand how a response could be generated. They would not dismiss the evidence, they would search for a better explanation of the mechanism.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)And unless it is on a topic that hasn't already been studied, then exactly what level of curiosity do you expect people to muster? "Gee, here's something that's been shown to not work time and time again, but here's the one person on the internet who claims it worked great! Time to tuck back in!"
Sorry, but anecdotes are NOT evidence, and when said anecdotes completely conflict with established science, without providing a more solid basis for its assertion, then they should rightly be dismissed.
Tumbulu
(6,489 posts)Look at the post above us, the person who raises and trains sports horses for a living. Look at the idiotic replies- get a new vet, etc.
As if this person would pay money to vets for useless help. As if these particular vets are idiots.
Where I am vets use all sorts of practices that the folks on DU would call woo. It just demonstrates how blind the DU "skeptic" squad is. And how out of date they are. And how they sort of are an embarrassment to liberals.
Vets were the first to embrace the use of Glucosamine on sports horses back in the early 80's, now it is a very popular and successful human supplement as well. Those of us who have organic livestock use homeopathic remedies quite a bit. To suggest that my sheep are fooled by a placebo, when I simply pour something into their water trough, is beyond preposterous. Do these methods work oftentimes, yes. Do they ever fail, yes. So, just because you or I do not understand how or why they could possibly work, why dismiss any actual evidence. And there is plenty of evidence, not just those who take the trouble to post their personal stories on a message board. Frankly I have stopped participating in these ridiculous arguments as I have decided that the most vociferous "skeptics" are simply frightened out of their minds. They just cannot handle it. I recall feeling the same way about homeopathy. I fell off my horse, my teacher popped these homeopathic arnica sugar things into my mouth and had me take them every 15 minutes and I never got a bruise and was completely OK. I keep arnica in my purse at all times now, 20 years later, it is unbelievable to me that it works. But my goodness, the amazing reduction in bruising is not deniable. And I could care less that I do not understand how it could possibly work and that someone can prove that it does not.
Why would successful vets, and livestock and sport horse breeders use all these methods if they did not work? Of course none of us may understand why they are working, or think that it is possible that the current explanations of why they work are believable. But so what? Why does one limit their observations and collection of evidence to only the things that they can explain? This is the opposite of how a real scientist approaches life.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)I've never participated in these kinds of threads before and so I guess I've kind of floated along in my own bubble that of COURSE everyone would be open to potential therapies.
I remember (in 1985!) when one of my vets injected snake venom into a tendon to try to stop muscle spasms. I thought that was pretty crazy. Of course botox is now a common practice for humans...
Glucosamine, chrondroitin sulfate, MSM - yup all of those came out of the sport horse world amongst so many other things that have helped not only horses but humans. The racehorse industry is WEALTHY and funds some of the top research - which helps ALL of us in the livestock industry. But if those vets decided beforehand that something was "woo" and refused to evaluate it, they'd be missing potential avenues of relief for millions of animals.
I for one am GRATEFUL for their open mindedness.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)we aren't talking about drugs or chemicals that work like they are supposed to in the real world, no we are talking about fucking magic water.
Tumbulu
(6,489 posts)It is so amazing to me that people here dismiss things out of hand simply because they cannot understand how it could work.
I am so grateful for vets!
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)they are laughing all the way to the bank, I'm certain.
Tumbulu
(6,489 posts)Obviously limited to only observing what you can understand rather that what is going on. Very limited and not truly scientific.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Neither should be licensed.
seattledo
(295 posts)I worked for a chiropractor for about four months. I decided to start looking for another job when I heard the "doctor" telling a customer that she had cancer because her spine was out of alignment, and that he could cure it for only $3,600 for a series of twenty visits. He graduated from sherman.edu. You can go to their site and see all of the faith-based crap they push about how a massage can cure cancer.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)

Dorian Gray
(13,766 posts)who should be forced out of business by the government.
Scout
(8,625 posts)you protestations notwithstanding.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)
Scout
(8,625 posts)my chiropractor has never mentioned it.
so, i don't even know what you're trying to say...
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)its more or less a belief in a "life force", it leads to the belief that the body has an "innate intelligence" to heal itself. Straight chiropractors believe that vertebral subluxation leads to interference with an "innate intelligence" exerted via the human nervous system and is a primary underlying risk factor for many diseases. So they believe that manipulation of the spine can undo this interference and lead to cures for many diseases and conditions.
Granted not all Chiropractic practitioners are the same, and some are "mixers" basically they chuck away the stupid metaphysical stuff, don't claim to cure diseases, and basically become very expensive physical therapists for the spine, but less trained and more dangerous.
Scout
(8,625 posts)HA
well, after my car accident, my primary care doc, my chiropractor, and my physical therapist worked very well together ... my chiropractor said i would need physical therapy and ultrasound treatments (i had 7 broken ribs, dislocated collarbone, broken left hip, and strained the ligaments (tendons? i forget) in one place in my back and in my neck. my primary care doctor concurred, and she prescribed the therapy. the physical therapist and the chiropractor consulted by phone before and during my weeks of therapy. i had several check-ups during the process with my primary care physician.
10 weeks after the accident, i had only a little aggravation from the broken ribs, but was otherwise FINE. i was back riding horses after a few weeks more.
you can call it woo all you want, but i know it works.
smart people know that with chiropractors, like MDs, some are charlatans, some aren't. you admitted as much yourself.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Is totally without merit.
Chiropractic follows the path of many other pseudo-sciences like acupuncture in that they are all based on antiquated medical knowledge.
Tumbulu
(6,489 posts)Because you fundamentally cannot believe it can work.
Very limiting and simplistic.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Tumbulu
(6,489 posts)please, it is really not scary. People use things that work, whether we can understand the mechanism of action or not.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)its anecdotal and is only a single point of data that is worthless without some type of control.
Tumbulu
(6,489 posts)Scout
(8,625 posts)my before and after x-rays show the changes.
since i guess my word isn't enough that my back pain is gone
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)testable in a clinical setting, with MORE THAN ONE DATA POINT, why are those of you who advocate for this stuff so opposed to it being tested?
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)trained about the anatomy of the spine can help and display positive results. Doesn't say much about Chiropractic as a whole practice though, a lot of it is just bullshit.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Okay.
Scout
(8,625 posts)how is chiropractic medicine "woo"?
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)I'm not going to repeat what they said.
Scout
(8,625 posts)funny, if chiropractic was just "woo" you wouldn't think Blue Cross would cover my visits...
if chiropractic is "woo", why is it that, after years of muscle relaxers, physical therapy, a heel lift for one foot--all conventional medicine, none of which worked--my chiropractor got rid of the pain in my lower back that i've had for the better part of my life (almost 40 years since i first had the pain, until it was eliminated). oh yeah, the conventional doctors all said "lose weight" which i have done over the years with varying degrees of success at losing and at keeping off. but guess what? fat or not, the back problem did not go away!!
do i use my chiropractor to prevent colds? the flu? no, i use the chiropractor to keep my spine aligned.
but you're convinced that you, oh mighty one, (and the others) just know everything all about it, aren't you? so i guess i've wasted my little bit of time here. oh well.
pnwmom
(109,718 posts)which funds naturopathic research, and the State of Washington, among other states, disagree with you.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)intaglio
(8,170 posts)and how little harm it does, then tolerating the quacks should be outlawed.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)A small percentage of the medicine they prescribe does any real good.
TransitJohn
(6,934 posts)Along with the drugs that keep the body from rejecting transplanted organs.
Reattaching limbs and restoring their functionality? Woo.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)Too many of you attackers assume that people who are for natural methods are against all forms of drugs or surgery.
Sorry, I don't fit into your simplistic view.
TransitJohn
(6,934 posts)Maybe you should use English better.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)and maimed countless more, when getting an effing paper cut could kill you from sepsis, etc. It was SO much better than relying on modern day quackery. lol
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)Or not...
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Especially when taken too often? This is assuming the herbal supplement you buy actually contains what it says it contains, see, there's NO regulation of that in the United States, leading to a lot of people buy some really expensive wheat and rice flour in pill form.
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)My mechanic has made mistakes so I'm going to hire someone to massage the tires.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)It doesn't do any good. In fact, many of those supplements can hurt you if you take too many.
Most of them don't get absorbed by the body. They are water-soluble and come out your pee.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)SidDithers
(44,298 posts)"The dose makes the poison".
Sid
FairWinds
(1,717 posts)between science-based health care, and that which is not.
I'll take the former.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Its things like nutrition, exercise, massage, natural, non-pharmaceutical remedies, etc.
People on this thread seem to be confusing it with homeopathic medicine, which isn't science; it's things like aromatherapy, magnets, candles, scented oils, etc.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)They have little or no empirically-based studies to support their effectiveness.
2naSalit
(95,168 posts)Because the medical industrial complex wouldn't allow any studies to be peer reviewed unless they are based on synthetic drugs rather than natural elements?
Maybe that would be why there are no studies. I, personally, have been studying natural health and remedies for decades and prefer those methods of maintaining my health and well being to paying untold sums to someone who can't figure out what the problems are and don't really give a rat's ass what the problems actually are as long as they can sell me costly synthetics and continued useless office visits and hospital tests that turn out to indicate anything other than eternal debt. All this while the alleged Dr. gets their kick-backs from big pharma and whomever else they can squeeze.
I'll take the natural path and live healthier and less inhibited than most folks. I treat only myself but will share my remedies that I make myself with those who ask me to share with them, I don't charge them anything... on occasion I have asked them to procure the ingredients for me to use in the making of remedies.
Call it names if you like but there are many who aren't interested in the "scientific" big pharma financed woo.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)THAT is why there are no studies. Not because "big-pharma" prevents it, but because the studies that HAVE been done showed that what was being tested DIDNT work.
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Or are you just distracting from the issue were discussing.
SidDithers
(44,298 posts)Homeopathic Medicine I
This introductory course in homeopathic medicine introduces the basic concepts of homeopathy, including: an introduction to the history, principles and philosophy of homeopathic medicine; repertory; principles of homeopathic treatment; first aid prescribing; acute prescribing; and basic case-taking.
Homeopathic Medicine II
Students continue their study of homeopathic medicine, and discuss the underpinning principles and philosophy, using The Organon of the Medical Art as a template. The materia medica of homeopathic remedies is taught according to their classification in the animal, plant or mineral kingdoms, as well as the families and/or groups within the kingdoms. Case studies are used to orient the student to the practical application of homeopathy, and students develop skills in homeopathic case taking, repertorizing, case analysis, and single-remedy prescribing taught in accordance with The Organon of the Medical Art. Textbooks and computer software are used in the delivery of the competencies, and students will have the choice to use hard copy book format or software format in case analysis.
Homeopathic Medicine III
Clinical exposure to case taking, case analysis and case management are the focus of this course, which consolidates knowledge from HOM100, HOM202 and HOM203. Real cases are presented and managed by advanced practitioners who are experienced in the field of homeopathic medicine. This gives students the opportunity to witness various styles of homeopathic practice rooted in a classical homeopathic approach. Additionally, students prepare for their internship through independent study of acute and first aid materia medica.
Those courses are part of the curriculum offered toward the ND designation at the Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine.
http://www.ccnm.edu/prospective_students/bridge/curriculum
Sid
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Since they have been diluted until there are no active ingredients in them.
The LD50 for water is pretty high.
SidDithers
(44,298 posts)
Sid
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)have been found to contain broken glass and other contaminants, at least in Britain, here in the United States, I don't even think that the U.S. government is empowered to inspect such factories for safety.
SidDithers
(44,298 posts)Zicam was an homeopathic zinc nasal spray which caused hundreds of people to lose their sense of smell. 'Course, the homeopathic dilution was only 2X, which meant that the mixture still had enough zinc in it to actually do harm.
If Zicam had only marketed a "stronger" 20X or 20C version of their product, nobody would have been harmed at all.
Sid
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)the fucked up part is I think its still on store shelves.
SidDithers
(44,298 posts)as far as I know, Zicam in pill form is still available, but the nasal spray has been discontinued.
Sid
u4ic
(17,101 posts)and that's still on the market. Many nasal steroids have the same effect.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Zicam is available over the counter, had no warnings at the time, and is unregulated.
On edit, just a note, but severe allergies can also lead to anosmia.
u4ic
(17,101 posts)until AFTER it happened. It's not a rare side effect, either. Nasal perforations with that medication are rare, but not losing ones sense of smell.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)people who lost it due to infection and inflammation of tissues in the nasal cavity.
http://www.justanswer.com/medical/3wf3l-diagnosed-anosmia-ent-gave-rx-flonase-seems-cou.html
http://www.rxmed.com/b.main/b2.pharmaceutical/b2.1.monographs/CPS-%20Monographs/CPS-%20%28General%20Monographs-%20F%29/FLONASE.html
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)The veterinary industry utilizes a fair few homeopathic remedies - from liniments to herbal teas.
SidDithers
(44,298 posts)Sid
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)SidDithers
(44,298 posts)and what it isn't.
Sid
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)At the direction of my vets means I'm clearly ignorant! Have been debunked by an internet guy! Phew!
Thanks for that.
SidDithers
(44,298 posts)Edit: Please tell me it's a 1M dilution, like the homeopathic arnica found at horsehomeopathy.com.
Pretty please.
Sid
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)And the arnica is in the barn.
Whatever the dilution is however, it works or we wouldn't use it at the direction of licensed clinical vets.
And if our vets didn't provide relief to our horses we'd fire them.
My business as a trainer is 100% results oriented. If the horse can't perform I'm fired so I have a vested interest in things that are demonstrably proven to work.
eShirl
(19,025 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)There's restored functionality or not. Its pretty simple.
I'm grateful they use every tool available - including homeopathy, and alternative meds like chiropractic, acupuncture and massage. They go beyond "meaning well" to making the animal well.
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)There's no placebo effect with animals.
Virtually every top international equine athlete is equipped with (gasp!) magnets prescribed by the best vets in the world (eek! quacks galore!) and chiropractic and acupuncture and massage therapy and yes, even (dare I say it?!) arnica!
MattBaggins
(7,944 posts)There are a lot of folks in that world with more money then sense. Easy marks for scam artists.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Either the horse can jump 5 foot or it cannot.
That isn't a scam nor is it a mirage.
You can't make the horse do it if they are physically unable. They'll simply lie down or worse. If the chiro isnt working NO owner/vet/trainer will simply continue with the treatment in some vain hope of a result. You expose your ignorance of professional sports (or even a one horse amateur) with each stupid comment. 1. We want success and 2. We care about the horses and 3. Nobody will continue to dump $$ into a treatment that isnt effective. Nobody. From a billionaire sheikh to a backyard amateur.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Its not liniments or herbal teas.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Sorry I wasn't explicit.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy
If it isn't just water, it isn't homeopathy.
Let me put it this way, homeopathy isn't just nonsense, the underlying ideas behind it are so nonsensical that IF it actually worked, then the past 500 years of scientific discoveries, ALL OF THEM, would be disproved.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Its not "just" water.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)hence it is just water.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)A treatment either works or it doesn't.
A horse has a sore back and won't tolerate a saddle. The vet does some chiro and acupuncture after which you can put a saddle on. Horses have a brain the size of a walnut - they can't rationalize "oh that woman stuck needles in me and so NOW I'm feeling better". They don't have the ability to "fool" themselves that suddenly they feel better because of a treatment.
It either works or it doesn't.
If it doesn't work, nobody's going to continue that treatment without a result. Sport horses aren't pasture ornaments - people have paid a shitload of money for a horse they want to compete with and learn on.
FWIW, horses have very specific ways of communicating when they're getting relief or they're relaxing - licking, chewing, sighing, yawning. The next time a horse of mine raps his knees on a fence and I'm applying arnica gel to the area, I'll let them know Humanist_Activist - the great equine expert - tells me that their relief-response isn't possible.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)That was the thing we were talking about, why not stick to the subject at hand, or do you realize you have no argument when it comes to that?
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)to reduce bruising and swelling.
Since drugs are prohibited (and tested for) in horse sports, you can't administer any pain relievers or anti-inflammatories so treatments like arnica are front line. Our horses do the human equivalent of the tri-athlon but before they move on to the next phase they are held for 10 minutes and extensively evaluated by a team of vets. At the upper levels these are the best vets in the US as they are evaluating them for international competitions.
And they recommend homeopathic drugs like arnica for bruising, stiffness and swelling. Like I said, the horses can't "lie" and manufacture a placebo effect. It either works or it doesn't.
I think its interesting how many human treatments have evolved from equine competition research. Of course, the racehorse industry is extremely rich and they heavily subsidize research into innovative treatments so they are often on the front line of experimentation. Equine research has to rely on strict observation and evaluation in order to test efficacy since their test patients can't articulate a verbal response.
I've never participated in these threads before and I'm pretty amused at the resistance of many people on this thread to "woo". No worries for me. I'm utterly comfortable being open-minded about trying products that may help my horses.
SidDithers
(44,298 posts)because the chance that there is a single molecule of arnica being in the 1M homeopathic solution is infinitesimal.
Sid
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)SidDithers
(44,298 posts)there's no arnica in 1M homoepathic arnica.
Sid
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)in both the gel and tabs.
But thanks for being so concerned that my horses might be faking their relief from a scam product!
SidDithers
(44,298 posts)The dilution is kind of the most important thing, when talking about homeopathy.
Sid
BuddhaGirl
(3,656 posts)Great testimony to the healing effects of homeopathy!