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SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 09:11 AM Dec 2013

Naturopaths and the creep of pseudo-science

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/12/15/naturopaths_and_the_creep_of_pseudoscience.html

If provincial governments grant naturopaths their wish and make them a self-regulating profession, they will be putting patients' well-being at risk.

Ontario naturopaths are pushing hard to become a self-regulating profession, with expanded rights to prescribe drugs and order tests. Thankfully, the Ontario Medical Association is pushing back.

This is not a turf war — there are more than enough patients out there. Nor is the resistance from the medical community founded on a fear of loss of professional status. This is about patient safety and, more fundamentally, the role of science in the Canadian health care system.

Naturopathic medicine, despite its claims to the contrary, is not evidence-based. Given this reality, provincial health ministries need to carefully consider the long-term implications — including the legal and ethical challenges — of formally legitimizing the pseudo-scientific.

If naturopathic medicine were governed by science, as practitioners increasingly claim, they would not provide: detoxification services, homeopathic remedies, most herbal remedies, and cosmetic facial acupuncture. But these types of services are the core of naturopathic medicine.


Scarce health-care dollars should be spent on science-based medicine, not the collection of woo being peddled by naturopathic "doctors".

Sid
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Naturopaths and the creep of pseudo-science (Original Post) SidDithers Dec 2013 OP
k&r! nt eqfan592 Dec 2013 #1
k&r idwiyo Dec 2013 #2
Yup, turf wars still. TM99 Dec 2013 #3
thank you. I'll add that in Massachusetts, only licensed veterinarians magical thyme Dec 2013 #11
There is no such word as allopathic MattBaggins Dec 2013 #133
Webster's disagrees with you riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #153
It was a made up term MattBaggins Dec 2013 #158
Lol! riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #167
LoL all you wantthere is no such thing as allopathy MattBaggins Dec 2013 #214
And where do "real" words H2O Man Dec 2013 #242
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2013 #333
thank you so much for sharing your story. niyad Dec 2013 #12
"When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #39
There is no such word as allopathic MattBaggins Dec 2013 #131
From dictionary.com pnwmom Dec 2013 #159
It's a type of beer?? India Pale Ale?? madinmaryland Dec 2013 #203
That's your reasoned argument? TM99 Dec 2013 #245
i live in arizona and have been DesertFlower Dec 2013 #210
US hospitals don't follow evidence based-practices for birthing mothers, either. intersectionality Dec 2013 #4
US birth mortality also result of bad nutrition & lack of pre-natal medical care. Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2013 #10
Commercial/corporate based health care is killing people just as fast, loudsue Dec 2013 #5
Science is not based on "nature", it's based on a method. cleanhippie Dec 2013 #23
Last I checked, Nature does a pretty good job, too. loudsue Dec 2013 #63
While I see your point, it seems to be too ambiguous an application cleanhippie Dec 2013 #72
Nature does a pretty good job at what? n/t Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #87
Curing, healing. Often better than chemicals and surgery. reformist2 Dec 2013 #183
That makes no sense, you do realize that life itself is just chemistry... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #185
Um, not really. Most drugs are synthesized in labs to block biological processes & destroy things. reformist2 Dec 2013 #188
Is there evidence of your first assertion? In addition, define "naturopathyl", also... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #192
This message was self-deleted by its author Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #199
Unless you have evidence to support your assertion, it's complete nonsense. nt eqfan592 Dec 2013 #200
Any industry that asks to be "self regulated" should get twice the regulations phantom power Dec 2013 #6
Exactly what the companies who produce gmo's do, they self regulate.... Tumbulu Dec 2013 #128
So how did that "real" science of thalidomide and premarin work out? KittyWampus Dec 2013 #7
The science behind it was inadequate, and the drug approval procedures were tightened bhikkhu Dec 2013 #19
Thank you phil89 Dec 2013 #20
More to the point with thalidomide, SheilaT Dec 2013 #27
You forgot the H-bomb, and fire... and lawn darts cthulu2016 Dec 2013 #30
Thalidomide never was approved by the FDA. So the science worked. nt msanthrope Dec 2013 #56
Well, the use of thalidomide was not approved in the US. MineralMan Dec 2013 #319
YEP. politichew Dec 2013 #8
Yup. N.D. == Not a Doctor longship Dec 2013 #9
I don't like 'woo'... TM99 Dec 2013 #14
Naturopathy IS error, which is why it deserves the "woo" label. nt longship Dec 2013 #16
Again with the bullshit. TM99 Dec 2013 #17
Fallacious argument Scootaloo Dec 2013 #21
Not fallacious in the least. TM99 Dec 2013 #22
That website is a load of tosh MattBaggins Dec 2013 #138
Just because a website you don't respect quotes research Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #205
The figures in that report for iatrogenic deaths are hogwash MattBaggins Dec 2013 #221
It would be a lot more productive for you to actually take the time Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #229
No those numbers have been posted on DU multiple times MattBaggins Dec 2013 #231
Not good enough. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #233
I did enough for you MattBaggins Dec 2013 #236
Taking just one number - Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #241
Medical error accounts for the 3rd highest number of deaths in the US? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #44
So do you believe TM99 Dec 2013 #46
You don't back up your assertions with links. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #70
Here's a link Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #207
I provided links TM99 Dec 2013 #247
No one cares about your distractions MattBaggins Dec 2013 #137
No one cares about your assholish opinions. TM99 Dec 2013 #246
Accupuncture has exactly zero LEGITIMATE reasearch MattBaggins Dec 2013 #275
Your willful ignorance is as bad as TM99 Dec 2013 #276
NCAM is a joke MattBaggins Dec 2013 #292
Yes, exactly like a Fundamentalist Christian. TM99 Dec 2013 #307
I believe the woosters are like the fundies MattBaggins Dec 2013 #309
The only one full of crap TM99 Dec 2013 #311
lol MattBaggins Dec 2013 #312
Plus one. zappaman Dec 2013 #313
You realize that "3rd highest number of deaths" number has been completely debunked, right? eqfan592 Dec 2013 #201
It would seem that you are saying that naturopathy is evidence-based medicine. cleanhippie Dec 2013 #26
Evidence INFORMED Medicine is not always the answer TM99 Dec 2013 #36
While there are problems with the practical application of EBM cleanhippie Dec 2013 #38
Again, TM99 Dec 2013 #40
"Is it because it will challenge financial monopolies?" Rex Dec 2013 #52
Why the fuck are you lumping in things that actually work(nutrition and lifestyle management)... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #90
No shit etherealtruth Dec 2013 #177
Pretty much, even more aggravating when they use terms they don't know the meaning of... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #187
Oh believe me I have had the same conversation etherealtruth Dec 2013 #219
Oh for pity sake, TM99 Dec 2013 #243
The issue is one of credibility, homeopathy doesn't work, not in the sense... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #251
They have not been studied empirically MattBaggins Dec 2013 #139
So nutrition and lifestyle management have not been studied empirically? TM99 Dec 2013 #244
I agree Locrian Dec 2013 #33
Wow, never seen a post that lacked...pretty much all knowledge of science or how it operates. n/t Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #91
You must've missed temporary311 Dec 2013 #95
Oh damn, I remember those, people can just be nuts. Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #96
a dogmatist Locrian Dec 2013 #112
Science is a process designed to reduce and try to eliminate the things you criticize it for.... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #117
Science does deal with complexities of the real world MattBaggins Dec 2013 #140
Baloney MattBaggins Dec 2013 #135
I have the equine equivalent of tri-athalon athletes and we use all that "woo" riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #13
This group ignores any evidence that they cannot understand Tumbulu Dec 2013 #132
What complete bullshit. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #204
An unwillingness to observe Tumbulu Dec 2013 #270
Given that you are describing almost exactly what science does.... eqfan592 Dec 2013 #280
I am describing what the scientific discipline requires of us Tumbulu Dec 2013 #289
Do you have an example? eqfan592 Dec 2013 #293
Just look at how the squad jumps all over anyone Tumbulu Dec 2013 #314
You're talking about people relaying anecdotes, and anecdotes are not data. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #315
No, we are not talking about anecdotes here Tumbulu Dec 2013 #317
I have to admit I'm flabbergasted at the knee-jerk reactions here riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #322
If homeopathy works, its Nobel Prize winning, it would literally upend the entire scientific world.. Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #332
Me too Tumbulu Dec 2013 #358
You need new vets MattBaggins Dec 2013 #141
See, proof right here Tumbulu Dec 2013 #269
Naturopath doctors are just like chiropractors: both are deeply steeped in woo. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #15
They're both faith-based healers seattledo Dec 2013 #31
Oh geez. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #43
That's the type of chiro Dorian Gray Dec 2013 #273
chiropractic is not "woo" Scout Dec 2013 #118
Really, so vitalism is a real thing? Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #120
don't know what you're talking about "vitalism"... Scout Dec 2013 #123
Chiropractic is based on the unproven hypothesis of "vitalism" from the 19th century.... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #126
"very expensive physical therapists for the spine, but less trained and more dangerous" Scout Dec 2013 #285
Chiropractic is a pseudo-science. The argument that "adjustment" can prevent disease... Gravitycollapse Dec 2013 #127
See, unwilling to observe evidence Tumbulu Dec 2013 #360
What evidence? n/t Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #366
sorry, you do not seem to be reading the posts here. Tumbulu Dec 2013 #371
Testimonials don't mean anything without it being repeatable and testable... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #373
Oh get a grip, you are being particularly silly nt Tumbulu Dec 2013 #376
do x-rays count? Scout Dec 2013 #382
Has nothing to do with your word, it has to do with it being repeated and being... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #389
Also, I just wanted to point out that manipulation of the spine, by ANYONE... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #395
Ha. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #122
brilliant, well documented response! Scout Dec 2013 #124
Other posters here in this very thread have pointed that out. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #142
how are taking and reading x-rays, woo? Scout Dec 2013 #284
With regard to naturopathic doctors, the National Institutes of Health, pnwmom Dec 2013 #254
Good for them. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #255
Considering how much of 'scientific' medicine is poison, I say give the naturopaths a chance. reformist2 Dec 2013 #18
Considering how much scientific and evidence based medicine cures intaglio Dec 2013 #73
As far as I'm concerned, most modern medicine is still quackery. reformist2 Dec 2013 #181
Totally. Heart transplants, prosthetics, total quackery. TransitJohn Dec 2013 #184
Those are extreme cases, not by any means the end result of most doctor visits. reformist2 Dec 2013 #191
Simplistic view? I took your simplistic statement at face value. TransitJohn Dec 2013 #209
Ahh, the good old days. When smallpox killed millions, polio killed hundreds of thousands... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #189
Clearly an opinion grounded entirely in reality. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #206
Have you looked up what some herbal supplements do to the human body? Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #94
How about if we give the crazy homeless guy a chance? MattBaggins Dec 2013 #144
You do know that supplements you buy at health stores is very expensive pee, right? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #145
Just about everything is "poison" if enough of it is consumed. That's not a good argument. nt stevenleser Dec 2013 #282
+1... SidDithers Dec 2013 #283
There is a difference . . FairWinds Dec 2013 #24
Naturopathy is science, and evidence based, medicine riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #25
About those non-pharmaceutical remedies.... cleanhippie Dec 2013 #28
and why would that be? 2naSalit Dec 2013 #98
There ARE studies. They just showed that they didnt work as advertised. cleanhippie Dec 2013 #160
As with many approved drugs on in the market. nt kelliekat44 Dec 2013 #308
Is there a point you were trying to make? cleanhippie Dec 2013 #381
Naturopathic doctors are taught, and promote homeopathy... SidDithers Dec 2013 #32
At least homeopathic medicines do no harm FarCenter Dec 2013 #47
Yup. The only benefit of homeopathic "medicine" is that it won't directly kill you... SidDithers Dec 2013 #49
Actually it depends, some of the places that make "homeopathic pills"... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #93
There was also the Zicam case a few years ago... SidDithers Dec 2013 #107
Isn't that the one that causes anosmia? Losing your sense of smell... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #108
Yup, that was the one... SidDithers Dec 2013 #111
I, and many, lost the sense of smell from Flonase u4ic Dec 2013 #129
Its a rare side affect, at least you were informed of it before hand... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #134
No I wasn't informed u4ic Dec 2013 #136
It appears it is rare(about .3%), and indeed, Flonase is used to restore sense of smell for some... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #143
So do some veterinary schools. Are they quacks too? riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #100
Yeah, linaments and herbal teas aren't homeopathy...nt SidDithers Dec 2013 #101
And homeopathy as well as other "alternative" medicines. nt riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #165
I'm starting to think you really don't know what homeopathy is... SidDithers Dec 2013 #195
Gosh thanks! 25+ years of using arnica and other homeopathic remedies riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #260
What's the dilution on the arnica you use?... SidDithers Dec 2013 #261
Don't know at the moment. I'm about to go to bed riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #265
I'm sure they mean well. eShirl Dec 2013 #106
As repeated before, the horses can't lie. It either works or not. riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #169
Are they quacks? You betcha MattBaggins Dec 2013 #146
Sorry but the horses can't lie. They either get restored functionality or not from the remedies riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #166
Of course they are MattBaggins Dec 2013 #218
Either the animal is restored to functionality or it isn't. riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #259
Do you know what homeopathic remedies actually are? Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #175
Yes. Arnica and other homeopathic remedies are regularly used riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #178
You seem to be confusing herbalism with homeopathy... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #180
Arnica (for example) has always been a homeopathic remedy riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #262
Any Arnica homeopathic preparations contain none of the plant in them... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #271
Animals cannot manufacture a placebo effect. riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #281
Don't move the goalposts, and don't lump in other, unrelated treatments with homeopathy... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #291
I haven't moved the goalposts. Did you just gloss over my comment about using arnica gel? riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #316
I have a question for you, HOW does the arnica gel work? n/t Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #318
I don't know and don't care. I (and my vets) just know it works riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #320
Well you can be sure that 1M Homeopathic Arnica won't be detected during testing... SidDithers Dec 2013 #321
Arnica is not a banned substance in competition nt riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #323
Wouldn't matter... SidDithers Dec 2013 #324
Just went out to the barn to check - its Arnica Montana riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #325
I asked about the dilution... SidDithers Dec 2013 #327
It's interesting, that there's no placebo effect with animals. BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #329
I don't know why you are celebrating, this poster is being dishonest at the very least... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #331
I like hearing positive testimonials about the success of using homeopathy. BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #335
That poster isn't using homeopathy, but a plant based gel that has an anti-inflammatory affect... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #337
Um, okay BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #338
Its about honestly, I would think it matters, this isn't a matter of opinion... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #340
Really, get a grip Tumbulu Dec 2013 #361
Arnica ISN'T PRESENT in homeopathic preparations... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #365
agains you scream out your fundamentalism Tumbulu Dec 2013 #370
Describe to me how it can be present in a solution at 30C, or 1 part per 10^60 of water... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #372
It does not matter Tumbulu Dec 2013 #375
Don't you want to know how it works, so you can better understand it? n/t Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #379
Not knowing how it works does not stop me from Tumbulu Dec 2013 #401
So basically, to you, confirmation bias is enough. See, I would want to know. Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #403
Honestly, you cannot observe something Tumbulu Dec 2013 #416
Is it arnica or a placebo(homeopathic "preparation", whatever), there is a difference... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #421
Look what I found, a mechanism for Arnica Montana to work on horses! Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #336
The tablets say 30c.The gel has no indication. I've already said it works riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #341
So the pill contains nothing in it, the gel most likely does, and you claim I am ignorant... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #342
Animals can't make up a placebo effect nt riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #346
You keep repeating this, and while its true, its also irrelevent... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #347
Prayer? (I'm an atheist). Some "woo"vibe in my barn riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #350
Willow bark contain Salicin, which metabolizes into salycyclic acid in the body... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #351
Just did the math, the Arnica, in order to be diluted to 30C, had to be dissolved in a body of... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #353
Gosh then I'll have to SOMEHOW communicate to these horses they've been duped riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #352
I don't see how you failing Middle School Chemistry is amusing. n/t Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #354
So now it is down to personal insults Tumbulu Dec 2013 #362
As of right now, no one in this thread has described a way for homeopathy to work... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #364
No, you have decided that it is magic Tumbulu Dec 2013 #369
LOL BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #357
It's amusing how annoyed they become BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #343
Do you really think water contains a memory of things dissolved in it in the past? Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #345
Perfect analogy... SidDithers Dec 2013 #356
it has nothing to do with belief Tumbulu Dec 2013 #363
Yup. The chiropractor vet is from Cornell riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #348
Thanks for your posts BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #349
30C means there's no arnica in the tablets... SidDithers Dec 2013 #355
"I don't know and don't care." This sums it up, faith based treatments, you just... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #330
I'm beginning to think they're serious... SidDithers Dec 2013 #263
Good grief, have you never been to a horse barn Tumbulu Dec 2013 #374
Organic /= homeopathic... SidDithers Dec 2013 #380
Are you trying to be funny? Tumbulu Dec 2013 #383
Ridiculous... SidDithers Dec 2013 #385
If you think posting ridiculous comments Tumbulu Dec 2013 #391
I asked that homeopathy be tested clinically, you labeled that ridiculous.... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #393
Yes, you are clearly a fundamentalist Tumbulu Dec 2013 #419
Water doesn't have memory... SidDithers Dec 2013 #394
Deal with the fact that your provincial Tumbulu Dec 2013 #418
I have a question, you have a million gallon tank of water, at homeopathic dilutions... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #402
Who cares, if it helps, SO WHAT? nt Tumbulu Dec 2013 #417
You have yet to prove it works. n/t Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #420
See, here you are Tumbulu Dec 2013 #359
Cost and Outcomes really should be considered here NoOneMan Dec 2013 #29
Placebo should never be part of a patient treatment plan... SidDithers Dec 2013 #35
Many pharmaceuticals and even some surgeries work no better than placebos NoOneMan Dec 2013 #37
Evidence? nt eqfan592 Dec 2013 #216
Watch this NoOneMan Dec 2013 #226
Sorry, can't watch a video right now. got a link to the study/studies that support your assertion?nt eqfan592 Dec 2013 #230
Yes NoOneMan Dec 2013 #238
I've been told that patients who insisted on getting a shot were given saline solution FarCenter Dec 2013 #51
Are you sure about that? Donald Ian Rankin Dec 2013 #76
From a recent podcast I heard on the subject, involving a doctor... eqfan592 Dec 2013 #215
"knowing full well that the treatment will have no real effect" NoOneMan Dec 2013 #239
I have a bigfoot "scarecrow" in my back yard. zappaman Dec 2013 #34
Sorry to disappoint you, but I've been killing and selling bigfoot pelts. Rex Dec 2013 #41
I have trained my pugs to keep away elephants hueymahl Dec 2013 #79
Just pugs? zappaman Dec 2013 #84
lol, nice one. Vattel Dec 2013 #186
The Woo is no worse than the drugs pedaled on TV that result in a class action lawsuit. Rex Dec 2013 #42
Yes! Stop naturopaths from giving out Thalidomide, Lariam, Oxycontin, Vicodin, ..... WinkyDink Dec 2013 #45
crazy canucks! Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #48
Your concern is duly noted. And several decades out-dated. pnwmom Dec 2013 #50
Yes, thank you! TM99 Dec 2013 #53
But it is 'woo' and you should be scared! Rex Dec 2013 #54
I'll bite... zappaman Dec 2013 #88
Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt MattBaggins Dec 2013 #148
Ahhhhhh thanks for the info! n/t zappaman Dec 2013 #170
What he said. Rex Dec 2013 #297
Yep, tried and true method for selling snake oil! Rex Dec 2013 #298
Bastyr offers more than a dozen courses in Homeopathy... SidDithers Dec 2013 #55
You probably don't believe in M.D. allergists, either, pnwmom Dec 2013 #61
Which is almost, but not quite, completely different from Homeopathy... SidDithers Dec 2013 #66
No, thanks. Once you make up your mind on something, pnwmom Dec 2013 #75
You have no evidence... none MattBaggins Dec 2013 #149
There are conflicting studies, as there are for many medical treatments. pnwmom Dec 2013 #156
In EVERY thread that EVER comes up on this topic, you ALWAYS claim the same thing. cleanhippie Dec 2013 #161
I did, repeatedly, right in this thread. pnwmom Dec 2013 #163
That appears to be an in-progress study. cleanhippie Dec 2013 #164
I don't know what would be acceptable to you, pnwmom Dec 2013 #171
That is one study for one specific reason. cleanhippie Dec 2013 #278
Here is an example of a faculty member with several completed studies pnwmom Dec 2013 #286
Great. Where are the actual studies with the results? cleanhippie Dec 2013 #290
The NIH solicits peer reviews before they offer grants. pnwmom Dec 2013 #296
So you cannot produce a single peer-reviewed study showing the efficacy of a naturopathic remedy cleanhippie Dec 2013 #300
Here you go: pnwmom Dec 2013 #301
While interesting, that's hardly conclusive. cleanhippie Dec 2013 #303
No, I'm not. I'm saying that you have to be careful about pnwmom Dec 2013 #305
homeopathic products KT2000 Dec 2013 #97
molecules, you mean? eShirl Dec 2013 #110
You just posted complete rubbish MattBaggins Dec 2013 #150
100% hogwash. cleanhippie Dec 2013 #162
You failed High School Science classes, didn't you? n/t Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #344
Yeah, but they have the gov't seal of approval... polichick Dec 2013 #71
I don't think your analogy holds up. Captain Stern Dec 2013 #397
Bastyr is a joke MattBaggins Dec 2013 #147
The researchers at University of Washington, Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, pnwmom Dec 2013 #157
+1 BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #168
'Scarce health-care dollars should be spent on science-based medicine, not the collection of woo Faux pas Dec 2013 #57
No, I posted in the thread that anything from Collective Evolution is shite... SidDithers Dec 2013 #58
This message was self-deleted by its author SidDithers Dec 2013 #59
Yes, conveniently ignoring the fact that the actual work came out of Harvard. pnwmom Dec 2013 #62
... Faux pas Dec 2013 #64
Nothing about Collective Evolution?... SidDithers Dec 2013 #65
From Orac last year: The problem with homeopathy, according to naturopaths SidDithers Dec 2013 #60
God-forbid people stop shoveling cash to big pharma!! polichick Dec 2013 #67
Sure. Shovel it to the muti-billion dollar, unregulated supplement industry instead!...nt SidDithers Dec 2013 #68
No thanks. I buy my herbs direct from the growers. polichick Dec 2013 #69
Nice, useless, flame-bait thread. Typical of your product. n/t ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2013 #74
Maybe he's a big pharma rep. polichick Dec 2013 #77
... SidDithers Dec 2013 #78
You sure are threatened by alternative health choices. polichick Dec 2013 #82
No, not at all... SidDithers Dec 2013 #85
Post removed Post removed Dec 2013 #86
So it's the 'competition' you don't like. CanSocDem Dec 2013 #105
It's absolutely about competition for public funds... SidDithers Dec 2013 #109
You don't 'compete' for public funds... CanSocDem Dec 2013 #115
Directions in public health are not determined by popular vote... SidDithers Dec 2013 #116
Public funds go where, now...??? CanSocDem Dec 2013 #130
Apparently the earlier attempt to start a flame war was met with little interest. n/t ChisolmTrailDem Dec 2013 #89
Just another flame-bait thread, brought to you by the same folks loudsue Dec 2013 #80
Third possibilty MattBaggins Dec 2013 #151
+1 Matariki Dec 2013 #249
Fuck woo. sagat Dec 2013 #81
+1... SidDithers Dec 2013 #83
Yep. greytdemocrat Dec 2013 #211
+1 idwiyo Dec 2013 #102
vaht? vas you shaying shumthing, about woo peddling fools, to meee? dionysus Dec 2013 #92
Heheh... SidDithers Dec 2013 #99
When I get really sick PasadenaTrudy Dec 2013 #103
A friend of mine PasadenaTrudy Dec 2013 #104
UTIs can be scary... SidDithers Dec 2013 #113
Gee, when I've had UTI's BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #114
I'm guessing PasadenaTrudy Dec 2013 #119
You didn't mention that, did you? BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #154
"To each his own." See, this is why ancedotal evidence is useless... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #121
I didn't say cranberry juice BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #155
"and the cranberry took care of it." You have no evidence for this. Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #172
My evidence is that my UTI's went away BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #173
"YMMV" Again, thinking anecdotes equals data. n/t Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #174
To each his own BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #176
It actually does. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #222
OK, sorry, perhaps I should say that one data point isn't enough to draw conclusions from... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #232
On that we agree. n/t Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #234
You didn't have an infection, then REP Dec 2013 #224
You mean we're not supposed to go on Web MD and self-diagnose? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #228
I do a little bit of self-diagnosis... REP Dec 2013 #268
Thank you! n/t PasadenaTrudy Dec 2013 #279
Well, good for you! BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #288
bladder infection, 4 weeks of antibiotics did not clear it up Scout Dec 2013 #295
Did they do a culture? REP Dec 2013 #302
i honestly do not remember if they did a culture Scout Dec 2013 #304
... lol ... Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #125
My brother is an MD board-certified in Occupational Medicine Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2013 #152
It seems like self-regulation doesn't work in any industry or profession. Cleita Dec 2013 #179
So what about marijuana? A natural medicine? panader0 Dec 2013 #182
You know what they call natural medicines... SidDithers Dec 2013 #197
Ok. So pot is therefore medicine by tautology that grows naturally. Sounds like natural medicine NoOneMan Dec 2013 #240
This thread is very interesting and informative Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #190
Actually, I'm battling ignorance in general, for example, you found herbs... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #194
Seems to me you are nit-picking Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #198
Antibiotics aren't designed to relieve symptoms, sorry if I was unclear... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #202
Sounds like you are a doctor. Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #212
I'm not a doctor, nor do I pretend to be one, more like a concerned citizen... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #217
OK Grateful for Hope Dec 2013 #227
Not all bronchitis Dorian Gray Dec 2013 #274
Black coffee is a good bronchodilator REP Dec 2013 #310
Meh. My Naturopath IS a Medical Doctor Matariki Dec 2013 #193
Really now? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #223
You are laughably uninformed Matariki Dec 2013 #248
Uninformed? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #250
Yes you are. Matariki Dec 2013 #252
You cannot have Naturopathy without homeopathy. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #253
You left out this part: "but not every naturopathic physician will use it pnwmom Dec 2013 #256
"that have not been scientifically shown to work" Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #264
Spinal fusion for chronic lower back pain has not been proven effective, pnwmom Dec 2013 #266
The first link Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #267
Bacteria are only getting resistant to ANTIBIOTICS because of the overuse of pnwmom Dec 2013 #272
"Tossing about the term 'woo' is intellectually lazy." kentauros Dec 2013 #258
and they are not only lazy, but very scared Tumbulu Dec 2013 #368
I've known for many years kentauros Dec 2013 #378
So sadly true Tumbulu Dec 2013 #384
And I have enjoyed what you've written, too. kentauros Dec 2013 #423
Thanks Tumbulu Dec 2013 #424
What do you think of osteopathy? BlueToTheBone Dec 2013 #196
Looks like yet another type of BS peddled on a false belief related to... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #208
DO's DesertFlower Dec 2013 #220
So they are legitimate until you get to OMM or OMT... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #225
when i had spinal manipulation it was for DesertFlower Dec 2013 #235
I went for my lower back BlueToTheBone Dec 2013 #237
an osteopath is a DO. seems the younger DesertFlower Dec 2013 #213
kick Liberal_in_LA Dec 2013 #257
I dunno.. sendero Dec 2013 #277
This is the net result of the insurance industry acting as a wedge between people and medicine. It Erose999 Dec 2013 #287
This is a Canadian story (nt) muriel_volestrangler Dec 2013 #294
This kind of quackery is a problem here too, in case my post hadn't made it clear to you. Erose999 Dec 2013 #299
Damn, look at the woo in this thread. *shaking my head* n/t X_Digger Dec 2013 #306
Shaking your head at people seeking affection? Whatever for? kentauros Dec 2013 #377
Big Pharma is based on pseudo scientific study, it's a scam perpetuated & patently confirmed! HAH! mother earth Dec 2013 #326
I have a question, why the fuck should we trust the big alternative "medicine" industry? Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #334
Naturopathy is based on vitamin therapy, minerals and such, it is not homeopathy. And guess what, mother earth Dec 2013 #386
Reiki is a spiritual practice, akin to faith healing, and I would classify it as "mostly harmless".. Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #390
No, HA, these things have benefits, maybe doesn't work for all people, just like medicines and mother earth Dec 2013 #407
Have those hospitals that embraced Reiki gotten rid of the oncology departments? Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #400
Alternatives are used in conjunction with traditional modes. Don't be silly. No one is saying mother earth Dec 2013 #408
Naturopathic practitioners in the US can be divided into three categories: mother earth Dec 2013 #387
How the fuck have I been schooled? I'm called the close minded one for asking that things be tested. Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #392
I don't know who you are arguing with, I never said FAITH had ANYTHING to do with the methods Ive mother earth Dec 2013 #410
Reiki is faith healing from what I read, so is most other BS "energy" healing shit. n/t Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #413
Energy medicine is a new frontier. Reiki really is used in hospitals, in fact, many practictioners mother earth Dec 2013 #415
One more thing, holistic medicine, alternative practitioners are SO sought after that people drive mother earth Dec 2013 #388
People also drive hundreds of miles to see psychics, I don't know why that is used as an argument. Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #396
Tell the police departments that use them to find missing children and adults. Let's not go there mother earth Dec 2013 #409
Hey, you want to talk about psychics, why not talk about Sylvia Brown... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #412
It was widely known she was a charlatan, I think Sylvia was entertainment. I told you there mother earth Dec 2013 #414
Wow, just wow, an actor who is paid to peddle bullshit on TV... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #422
I never said I liked it so much, I watched it one or twice, and when I watched it the psychics used mother earth Dec 2013 #425
Met a psychic, I actually was one, for fun, if you can call it that. Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #426
You really like to go off topic and take it to new levels, "you people" are so transparent. mother earth Dec 2013 #428
Indeed BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #398
"allopathic" in other words, stuff that ACTUALLY works. Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #399
I give credit to both, as both have their place in healing BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #404
So why can't healing be demonstrated for the alternatives you advocate for? n/t Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #405
Absolutely, and thankfully that is taking place everyday as we learn that we do not have all mother earth Dec 2013 #411
Sid, have you never heard of integrative medicine being practiced by MD's who have a more forward mother earth Dec 2013 #328
+1 BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #339
I should have recc'd this the first time BootinUp Dec 2013 #367
Oh please!!! darkangel218 Dec 2013 #406
Holy Smokes! thats a lot of replies. I thought this was a pretty straightforward, common fucking... BootinUp Dec 2013 #427
There a huge anti-science contingent that posts at DU... SidDithers Dec 2013 #429
 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
3. Yup, turf wars still.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 09:54 AM
Dec 2013

Naturopaths in Arizona get the equivalence of a medical school training with all the same anatomy, physiology, chemistry, pathology, etc. courses but they are also trained in using alternative & complementary treatments that work with, and not against, the allopathic DO's & MD's.

That training has positive consequences where these men and women think 'outside' of the box far more than the allopathic physicians that I have dealt with. As a pushing 40 year old man who had suffered with medical problems for two years with no MD or DO willing to explore outside of standard practices, my NMD was a welcome relief. He was the one who ordered labs that showed that I had a pituitary tumor that was reeking havoc on my entire endocrine system. I received referrals from him to the endocrinologist who confirmed the diagnosis. After surgery and during chemo, his 'naturopathic woo' supported my body in dealing with the harsh chemicals necessary for treatment. When I lost weight, the herbs he prescribed helped with the nausea and weight gain I sorely needed. His 'woo' of B12 injections and vitamin & herbal IV's boosted my immune system so that I didn't get secondary infections bacterial or viral. I also received acupuncture and tried homeopathy, the first helping me greatly, and the second only minimally but still noticeably.

There was not one bit of animosity from him towards the other MD's involved with my treatment and care. But quite a few MD's and nurses on the other side, even when observing the positive effects his 'remedies' had on me during all of this, were just assholes about it. The compassion he and his staff showed and still show was amazing compared to, again, many of the MD's that I have dealt with over the last seven years.

I needed both forms of medicine, and both worked for me. Call it anecdotal if you want, but I have observed this with others here as well. The OMA might want to look to those US states that train, license, and regulate the naturopathic profession. In these states, bullshit that could be harmful is dealt with swiftly and definitively. Pitting themselves against naturopaths does not help patients. It takes away options, choices, and support that can be used as a complement to the care & 'medicine' they prescribe.

When the allopathic medical professions start to deal with the harm they cause then they can worry about the 'woo'. The 3rd leading cause of death behind heart disease and cancer in the US is preventable medical error. Close to a half a million patients a year go to the hospital for surgery and care and die from errors that were completely avoidable.

Are there some dangers associate with herbs and vitamins? Sure. Over a ten year period several hundred died from the use of Ephedra. Compare this to Vioxx which killed anywhere from 10's of thousands to as many as 55,000 in four years. Several hundred, Sid, versus 50,000+? Yup, I am terrified of the 'woo'.

There is no grand conspiracy here. This is just old-fashion human behavior - greed, power, and control. Once gotten, it is rarely shared or relinquished.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
11. thank you. I'll add that in Massachusetts, only licensed veterinarians
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 10:51 AM
Dec 2013

can legally perform chiropractic treatment, and Tufts University (and a couple other state Universities that I can't remember off the top of my head, maybe Colorado and Arizona) offer training in alternative treatments such as accupuncture and herbs.

This saved my dog, Jake's, life 6 years ago. He had a neck injury that was treated allopathically for 6+ months with metacam and rest on 3 occasions: first with the initial injury and next for pain between his shoulder blades and finally for pain in the lumbar region. The 2nd vet diagnosed him with moderate hip dysplasia, (nonexistant) herniated discs in the lumbar region and a (nonexistant) mass on his liver. By the time she was through (mis)treating him, he was passing chyme instead of poop, eating 3-4 pounds of food/day, carrying his bowl around begging for more, and starving in front of my eyes.

After her 2nd or 3rd voice message telling me "just keep doing what you're doing. you're doing all you can," I spent the night on the internet researching and the next day on the phone calling every major animal hospital within a day's drive.

The hospital an hour away referred me to a veterinarian/chiropracter/accupuncturist, who took us in immediately on an emergency basis. His had no mass on his liver and no herniated discs. L4-7 had subluxations, along with C3-4, and a couple between his shoulder blades (I forget which ones they were t-something I think).

One 15-20 minute chiropractic/accupuncture treatment eliminated *all* his symptoms. He was pain free and drug free. The only thing the other vet was correct on was the dysplasia. We returned every 2 weeks for a couple sessions to keep his vertebrae properly aligned while his sore and strained muscles, tendons and ligaments healed, and then annually for checkups for another 2 years.

Call it woo. Call it anecdotal. All I know is she saved my dog's life.

Response to MattBaggins (Reply #158)

 

IdaBriggs

(10,559 posts)
39. "When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:53 PM
Dec 2013

I think this holds true for most folks, including the medical community.

I have posted about the work I do with the Preemie Growth Project, and what we have learned is nothing short of stunning, but the political battles I am forced to deal with to get this investigated, when the basic concepts are standard industry practice for the veterinarians/animal husbandry industry, are simply flat out stunning. I would love to blame it on some "global pharmaceutical conspiracy" but the truth is that getting things investigated "outside the realm of current understanding" depends on funding, personality, prestige, and a host of barriers that those outside of the situation have zero comprehension about -- and while some people might think "grad students" are a dime a dozen, if you aren't in the field, finding them to help analyze data is "challenging" to say the least!

The first thing to be addressed is the role of the "clinician" who sees patients and uses what they've learned in their schooling (which has some insane issues strictly there - don't get me started on the standard "residents should work 90+ hour work weeks, because sleep deprivation is a great way to train people!&quot , and the fact we keep getting the words "stunning" and "never seen anything like it" reported by the physicians and parents BUT NOT ONE PHYSICIAN HAS *INITIATED* CONTACT WITH US. (I have lost count of the numbers I have spoken to, and apparently the protocol is very slowly gaining some traction with pediatricians - maybe. Sigh.)

I choose to believe they aren't oblivious to the "miracles" they are seeing (direct quotes), but instead think they are happy to see patients who do not need their assistance / can then move on to the next who *does* need their help. This may be naive, but it is how I don't end up howling with rage because, while I am a woman of faith, I know that the "miracle of science" is that you can repeat the results, and with the number of babies/children we've done that with now, somebody should bloody well be paying attention -- And They Aren't.

(Disclaimer: I was instructed by an NIH physician to write an article for one of the medical journals; when I contacted the journal, I was told that there was no spot for an article by someone like me under the submission guidelines. Yeah, team!)

And then there are the "researchers" who are very busy dealing with their own projects and the politics of their various organizations. I have lost count of the number who are interested in what we are seeing, and really think "someone should investigate that" -- really? What a bloody good idea!

And then, while this takes YEARS to get through, and eventually does get the rigorous formal investigation it should get (which will take years more), the very conservative organizations in charge of things lose their credibility with the people who can investigate it for themselves, and see the results that cannot be duplicated by the methods currently in use *because they don't know how to look at the whole picture*.

Oh, and don't get me started on the folks who are running the organizations that supposedly advocate for the people affected by these conditions -- nice people, but unless I want to donate a couple of thousand dollars to each organization to attend their conventions as a vendor (with nothing to sell, by the way), well, the space is all filled up. (To be fair, they use the conventions to cover the operating costs of the different organizations, which support the conventions, which are great opportunities to get everyone up to date on the latest research data, and getting published is Really Important.)

I am struggling with the summary for the Project, and how to explain things that seem (at this point) so blatantly obvious to anyone who spends more than five minutes thinking about things. To be honest, at this point I am convinced that if someone like myself can see it (with the initial data coming from reading about how to eat while pregnant, then seeing what happened to my own children, then reading the d*mn medical textbooks and journals and putting the pieces together, then seeing what happened to the other children who followed the same protocol), What The Heck Is Wrong With These People that they didn't figure it out already?

Eh, my little rant about my little corner of the planet. But swear to heavens, the next person who says, "well, if what you are saying is true, then they will come beating a path to your door, which means you are not telling the truth!" is going to get an earful.

And don't ask me to say anything nice about the March of Dimes. Seriously, at this point, I think those folks are just in business to make sure they keep making money.

Grrr...

pnwmom

(108,950 posts)
159. From dictionary.com
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 07:01 PM
Dec 2013

al·lop·a·thy [uh-lop-uh-thee] Show IPA
noun
the method of treating disease by the use of agents that produce effects different from those of the disease treated (opposed to homeopathy ).
Origin:
1835–45; < German Allopathie. See allo-, -pathy

Related forms
al·lo·path·ic [al-uh-path-ik] Show IPA , adjective
al·lo·path·i·cal·ly, adverb
Dictionary.com Unabridged

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
245. That's your reasoned argument?
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:00 PM
Dec 2013

There is no such thing as 'woo' either. It is a made up word in the last decade. At least allopathic is several hundred years old from an original German term.

DesertFlower

(11,649 posts)
210. i live in arizona and have been
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 09:34 PM
Dec 2013

treated my naturapaths with some good results. they never did anything that could harm me. actually it was a naturapath who prescribed medical marijuana for my pain because she was concerned that the vicodin would harm my liver.

i had a car accident years ago and had airbag burns on my chest and arm. the airbag actually tore my watch off my arm. before going home my husband took me to my naturapath. she gave me arnica pills and arnica cream. within a few days the airbag burns were gone, she also did great spinal manipulation.

for the last few years my dermatologist who is very well known started giving arnica and arnica cream after injections of fillers to speed up the healing.



intersectionality

(106 posts)
4. US hospitals don't follow evidence based-practices for birthing mothers, either.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 10:14 AM
Dec 2013

Cascading interventions that endanger mom and baby so surgery has to be done causing section rates hovering in the 30%-40% rate, but varying widely by city (and even moreso by hospital). US healthcare experts created standard practices that leave us with one of the highest birth mortality rates in the developed world. I mean, I get why we should expose this specific problem, but let's not play - the US medical industry's most common practices are oftentimes driven by people intending to make a profit as quickly as possible, health of the patient(s) and evidence be damned.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,894 posts)
10. US birth mortality also result of bad nutrition & lack of pre-natal medical care.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 10:50 AM
Dec 2013

The Republican solution: cut Food Stamps and fight ObamaCare. That way they will always have lots of moochers victims they can blame for the ills of society and to pump up the Prison-Industrial Complex. All the better to prosecute the War on Women, too.

loudsue

(14,087 posts)
5. Commercial/corporate based health care is killing people just as fast,
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 10:30 AM
Dec 2013

if not faster, than naturopathy. People who don't get that "science" is BASED on nature ("natur"opathy), then they are living in some bizzaro reality that doesn't exist as far as the human body goes.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
23. Science is not based on "nature", it's based on a method.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:57 AM
Dec 2013

It's called the Scientific Method, (Use google for more info) which uses empirical. evidence and testable, repeatable, falsifiable results.

It has little to do with "nature" in the manner you imply.

loudsue

(14,087 posts)
63. Last I checked, Nature does a pretty good job, too.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 02:18 PM
Dec 2013

Nature is what makes the scientific method WORK.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
72. While I see your point, it seems to be too ambiguous an application
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 03:01 PM
Dec 2013

Of the word "nature" in regard to the topic.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
185. That makes no sense, you do realize that life itself is just chemistry...
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 08:41 PM
Dec 2013

and chemicals that can maintain a type of homeostasis internally. Right?

Also, when we allow "nature" to take its course, almost half of children died before the age of 5 and the average life expectancy was about half what it is today. I'll take those horrible chemicals(that we require to live) and surgery, when necessary, over whatever you are peddling.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
188. Um, not really. Most drugs are synthesized in labs to block biological processes & destroy things.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 08:46 PM
Dec 2013

I'm not an all or nothing type - I think naturopathy should be the first line of treatment for most illnesses, with the more extreme measures to be resorted to only when natural methods fail - doctors are way too eager to prescribe medicine and surgery when neither is really recommended. Why do they do it? You know perfectly well why.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
192. Is there evidence of your first assertion? In addition, define "naturopathyl", also...
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 08:53 PM
Dec 2013

can you tell me what makes it innately superior to "traditional" or as I like to call it "tested" medicine?

Response to reformist2 (Reply #188)

phantom power

(25,966 posts)
6. Any industry that asks to be "self regulated" should get twice the regulations
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 10:34 AM
Dec 2013

The entire concept of "self regulation" is fucking ridiculous. I can't believe these proposals are ever taken seriously.

Tumbulu

(6,268 posts)
128. Exactly what the companies who produce gmo's do, they self regulate....
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:39 PM
Dec 2013

makes me really feel like trusting them.

bhikkhu

(10,710 posts)
19. The science behind it was inadequate, and the drug approval procedures were tightened
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:22 AM
Dec 2013

Science has the necessary tools to recognize and correct errors.

Naturopathy (and homeopathy, and others) is generally safer in that it generally engages nothing more than the placebo effect. As long as the sickness is only in the mind they work fine.

 

phil89

(1,043 posts)
20. Thank you
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:35 AM
Dec 2013

Well put. It's so odd that people criticize change in science as if it's a bad thing.

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
27. More to the point with thalidomide,
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:08 PM
Dec 2013

it was not approved in this country even though it had been approved in Europe. The head of the FDA said the studies were inadequate and wanted more done before approving it here.

So Europe had the "epidemic" of thalidomide babies. The only ones born here were to mothers who'd gotten the drug elsewhere.

MineralMan

(146,238 posts)
319. Well, the use of thalidomide was not approved in the US.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 04:27 PM
Dec 2013

The FDA refused to approve it, and that saved a lot of American women and their children from its harmful effects. That's a good example of how evidence-based medicine is regulated for the protection of patients. Of course, there are situations where medications ended up being more harmful than beneficial results warranted. In those cases, the regulation was not sufficient. In actual fact, more regulation, not less, is needed.

For "natural" remedies, regulation is almost non-existent, despite the harm done in many cases by people relying on untested or even completely useless "natural" remedies.

The alternative medicine sector resists all regulation, which should be a warning signal to everyone. Despite, for example, the multi-billion dollar pseudo-pharmaceutical industry's resistance to regulation, exactly that kind of regulation is what's needed for the protection of those who may be duped into believing that some alternative treatment is better than normal medical treatment. People's lives have been lost through that belief. Far too many people's lives have been lost by substituting ineffective or worthless treatment for treatment that actually can help them.

If the alternative medical community wants to be respected, it needs to allow itself to be examined. Until then, it is woo, pure and simple. Any practitioner who uses homeopathic remedies, for example, is a fraud. Homeopathy should be prohibited altogether. Yet, many naturopaths use it on a regular basis, thus duping their patients into thinking they are getting some sort of actual treatment, instead of just water. Homeopathy is a fraud.

longship

(40,416 posts)
9. Yup. N.D. == Not a Doctor
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 10:50 AM
Dec 2013

They are deeply steeped in woo.

But as you see from the responses to your post, people like their woo.

I'll R&K anyway.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
14. I don't like 'woo'...
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:11 AM
Dec 2013

I just don't like bullshit.

Some of us prefer not to view medicine as some ideological battlefield pitting drawing up sides against imaginary enemies like 'woo' when the profession has plenty of its own issues including deadly problems like medical errors and whose true stated goal should be about alleviating the suffering of patients and healing them.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
17. Again with the bullshit.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:17 AM
Dec 2013

Read my first post in this thread. Medical error accounts for 3rd highest number of deaths in the US, and it is entirely preventable. Please provide data to show that the deaths from licensed NMD's using complementary medicine even comes close to that figure. You won't be able to so you keep spouting the 'woo' bullshit.

Same story, different day.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
21. Fallacious argument
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:43 AM
Dec 2013

One, medical error isn't even on the fucking charts, as far as cause of death in the US goes.

second, asking for data about NMD about that, is about the same as asking for data about ice cream truck drivers.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
22. Not fallacious in the least.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:50 AM
Dec 2013

1) http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/871/56/

2) If you are going to discuss the dangers of NMD's, the harm they cause, and the deaths, please be prepared to back it up with rational arguments and data.

If not, you are just spouting an irrational and emotional argument against 'woo' that is bullshit.

Ms. Toad

(33,974 posts)
205. Just because a website you don't respect quotes research
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 09:25 PM
Dec 2013

doesn't make the research bad.

Here is a link to the underlying article, published in JAMA - the Jouranal of the American Medical Association, from which the data is taken: http://silver.neep.wisc.edu/~lakes/iatrogenic.pdf

MattBaggins

(7,897 posts)
221. The figures in that report for iatrogenic deaths are hogwash
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 09:57 PM
Dec 2013

and the same bad research is being used over and over.

Those death estimates are down right silly.

Ms. Toad

(33,974 posts)
229. It would be a lot more productive for you to actually take the time
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 10:03 PM
Dec 2013

and explain specifically the errors you find in the report.

It was solid enough for the AMA (not known as a purveyor of hogwash) to publish it. Feel free to pick it apart, but merely repeating that it is hogwash is not a scientifically appropriate response - as long as you're insisting your objections are based in science, you ought to be able to provide science based reasons for rejecting the analysis.

MattBaggins

(7,897 posts)
231. No those numbers have been posted on DU multiple times
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 10:07 PM
Dec 2013

and debunked. Please feel free to examine the research used and track down the original studies and see why they are so flawed.

Bad models. Bad data sets. Bad interpretation of results by people LOOKING to claim iatrogenic deaths are high.

I will do one for you... This bit of bunk is used in that delightfully silly piece.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9555760

Ms. Toad

(33,974 posts)
233. Not good enough.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 10:12 PM
Dec 2013

You've been provided a link to the article, please provide specific concerns using the information from the original JAMA article.
Just claiming hogwash over and over again is not an science based, or otherwise appropriate, argument.

Feel free to link to another peer reviewed article debunking it. Or to specific discussions on DU which do more than make conclusory arguments about it.

MattBaggins

(7,897 posts)
236. I did enough for you
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 10:19 PM
Dec 2013

It speaks for itself.

It was a horrible analysis of incomplete data from a few American hospitals with a pathetically broad definition of adverse reactions.

It was a flawed study that the "squawk itatrogenic" crowd has been misusing ad nauseum

Ms. Toad

(33,974 posts)
241. Taking just one number -
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 10:53 PM
Dec 2013

Total US death certificates citing medication errors (based on an actual review of death certificates): 244,388 from 1976 through 2006. That makes the average deaths per year from medication errors 7,883. Phillips DP, Barker GE, A July spike in fatal medication errors: a possible effect of new medical residents, J Gen Intern Med. 2010 Aug;25(8) 74-9.

Number reported in the Starfield study: 7000 deaths due to medication errors/ year.

That "horrible analysis of incomplete data" is pretty darn close to the actual count from an individual review of all US death certificates over 31 years - for the first statistic I checked.

So you might want to try again to actually support your conclusory statements with some evidence based analysis.

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
44. Medical error accounts for the 3rd highest number of deaths in the US?
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 01:23 PM
Dec 2013

Not according to the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm

The third cause of death, according to the CDC, is chronic lower respiratory diseases.

I'm more inclined to believe the CDC over an anonymous poster on an online discussion forum.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
46. So do you believe
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 01:34 PM
Dec 2013

Barbara Starfield, MD, of Johns Hopkins School of Public Health published in the JAMA in 2000?

That was the result of her findings, and things have not changed since then, only worsened.

But hey, I am just an anonymous poster on an online discussion forum that does his research.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
247. I provided links
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:05 PM
Dec 2013

and others have provided further ones.

Funny how those who attack 'woo believers' are such blind disbelievers themselves.

MattBaggins

(7,897 posts)
137. No one cares about your distractions
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:53 PM
Dec 2013

First off I HIGHLY doubt your claim that medical arror deaths are so high.

Second that has NOTHING to do with the fact that naturopathy is nonsense.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
246. No one cares about your assholish opinions.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:03 PM
Dec 2013

That's all they are.

I provided links and others provided direct links to the research. Doubt all your want but isn't that just the flip side of blind belief?

Naturopathy has a wide variety of treatment methods and modalities. Some like homeopathy are being shown to be nothing more than placebo. Others like nutrition, herbal medicine, lifestyle management, and acupuncture (to name just a few) have plenty of research and empirical evidence to back up their effectiveness.

MattBaggins

(7,897 posts)
275. Accupuncture has exactly zero LEGITIMATE reasearch
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 08:46 AM
Dec 2013

to back it up.

You try to make it seem as if eating well and exercising are something actual doctors don't know about?

Naturopathy is still bunk. Vitalism is nonsense.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
276. Your willful ignorance is as bad as
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 09:01 AM
Dec 2013

a fundamentalist Christian's.

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture (Main site for the subject)

Yup, the NIH has done exactly zero LEGITIMATE research.







MattBaggins

(7,897 posts)
292. NCAM is a joke
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 03:45 PM
Dec 2013

It was pet project of Hatch and Harkin to force the NIH to waste funds on voodoo projects. It's entire existence is due to the fact that none of the woo crappie passes the smell test of actual clinical trials.

NCAM is a joke and ought to be disbanded. It's a scam organization headed by people who want to slip bullshit under the radar.

Complete joke.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
307. Yes, exactly like a Fundamentalist Christian.
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:47 PM
Dec 2013

You are not the one who decides if something is a 'joke' or not. It is not a waste of money by the NIH in my opinion to fund research to study the effectiveness of a cheaper and extremely safe alternative to pain management as it is currently practiced today, which bluntly is abysmally done.

These studies are as legitimate as the fast-track FDA ones for unproven pharmaceuticals that consumers have been hurt by repeatedly since its implementation. These studies are as legitimate as any other if they follow the 'rules' which they do.

There is nothing on this page that suggests even remotely that it is a 'scam organization headed by people who want to slip bullshit under the radar'.

http://nccam.nih.gov/about/ataglance

I even looked up their current FY 2013 funding. It is $120.7 Million. That is literally a drop in the bucket in the FY 2013 3.45 trillion dollar budget.

The only one peddling bullshit is you.

MattBaggins

(7,897 posts)
309. I believe the woosters are like the fundies
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:31 AM
Dec 2013

their crap has no basis in reality... Just really really really believe that it works.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
311. The only one full of crap
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:42 AM
Dec 2013

is you and your ilk.

I am done discussing it -- well attempting to do so -- rationally with someone with a rigid mind full of emotional beliefs.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
201. You realize that "3rd highest number of deaths" number has been completely debunked, right?
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 09:20 PM
Dec 2013

The pseudo-science nutbag that spread it around failed to supply any evidence at all to support the assertion.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
26. It would seem that you are saying that naturopathy is evidence-based medicine.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:06 PM
Dec 2013

And that simply is not true.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
36. Evidence INFORMED Medicine is not always the answer
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:37 PM
Dec 2013

and it tends to deny the study of other forms of medicine or healing like acupuncture and/or naturopathy for various reasons.

I will quote the Wikipedia article now for a discussion of its criticisms and issues:

Limitations and criticism

Although evidence-based medicine is regarded as the gold standard of conventional clinical practice,[citation needed] there are a number of limitations and criticisms of its use,[2] many of which remain unresolved despite nearly two centuries of debate.[37]

EBM produces quantitative research, especially from randomized controlled trials (RCTs). Accordingly, results may not be relevant for all treatment situations.[38]
RCTs are expensive, influencing research topics according to the sponsor's interests.
There is a lag between when the RCT is conducted and when its results are published.[39]
There is a lag between when results are published and when these are properly applied.[40]
Certain population segments have been historically under-researched (racial minorities and people with co-morbid diseases), and thus the RCT restricts generalizing.[41]
Not all evidence from an RCT is made accessible. Treatment effectiveness reported from RCTs may be different than that achieved in routine clinical practice.[42]
Published studies may not be representative of all studies completed on a given topic (published and unpublished) or may be unreliable due to the different study conditions and variables.[43]
EBM applies to groups of people but this does not preclude clinicians from using their personal experience in deciding how to treat each patient. One author advises that "the knowledge gained from clinical research does not directly answer the primary clinical question of what is best for the patient at hand" and suggests that evidence-based medicine should not discount the value of clinical experience.[28] Another author stated that "the practice of evidence-based medicine means integrating individual clinical expertise with the best available external clinical evidence from systematic research".[1]
Hypocognition (the absence of a simple, consolidated mental framework that new information can be placed into) can hinder the application of EBM.[44]


The issues boil down to problems with research based science and patient driven clinical experiential practice. And as others have mentioned through out this thread, money and power can corrupt any human endeavor including 'evidence-based medicine'. Drugs get approved that shouldn't be. Medical errors rack up countless preventable deaths instead of fixing those errors with proper money and resources. Just as allopathic medicine has research that backs up some aspects and doesn't others, its time to do the research on complimentary forms of healing as well. Some will stand up, some will be only placebos, and some will be discounted as useless if not harmful. To date, 'useless' has not been as harmful as critics of naturopathy, Chinese medicine, etc. have claimed.

The problem many of us, myself included have, is this. When so-called self-proclaimed scientific rationalists start throwing around such emotionally charged words as 'woo' and immediately close their minds to the research that is even out there in such fields as psychoneuroimmunology, NIH studies showing the effectiveness of acupuncture in pain management, etc., they are frankly anything BUT scientific or rational.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
38. While there are problems with the practical application of EBM
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:51 PM
Dec 2013

Naturopathy lacks the empirical evidence to support its efficacy.

And without any evidence to support its efficacy (usually because the results of a scientific study dont produce any) we k ow that it's not doing what it claims its doing.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
40. Again,
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:56 PM
Dec 2013

as mentioned in another reply in this thread, naturopathic treatments include things as diverse as acupuncture, herbal medicine, homeopathy, nutrition, and lifestyle management. Outside of homeopathy, all of those areas of practice have been studied empirically, showing positive results both in research and in their clinical application, and are still ignored. Why?

Is it because there is only a focus on 'woo' and not what naturopathy actually is?

Is it because it will challenge financial monopolies?

So yes, many if not most aspects of a licensed NMD's medical practice involves treatments that are a major part of evidence based medicine if that is strictly about the empirical evidence and efficacy of treatment.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
52. "Is it because it will challenge financial monopolies?"
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 01:40 PM
Dec 2013

NOT saying that THAT might be it...but that is TOTALLY IT!

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
90. Why the fuck are you lumping in things that actually work(nutrition and lifestyle management)...
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 03:35 PM
Dec 2013

with outright bullshit that is impossible to work like homeopathy?

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
177. No shit
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 08:17 PM
Dec 2013

Lump homeopathy in with any "alternative" treatments and you know immediately that the speaker (writer) doesn't now what the hell they are talking about

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
187. Pretty much, even more aggravating when they use terms they don't know the meaning of...
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 08:44 PM
Dec 2013

Look below, I'm debating with someone who thinks herbal teas are a homeopathic remedy! People need to learn what the hell they are talking about.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
219. Oh believe me I have had the same conversation
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 09:53 PM
Dec 2013

... over and over on the subject.

I didn't scroll down .... but, it is often a kindness to provide a definition of homeopathy. Hopefully, they really do not believe homeopathy is even possible ...?

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
243. Oh for pity sake,
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 10:54 PM
Dec 2013

try to keep up.

Opinionated assholes start throwing around meaningless emotionally charged words like 'woo' with regards to naturopathy.

Here in the US, 22 states license and regulate NMD's. Do you even know what the fuck that means?

NMD's use a variety of treatment modalities. Out of the ones mentioned, homeopathy is the only one that has not had research that supports the claims of the users outside of a placebo effect. I have no problem acknowledging that. But the remaining modalities that are the bulk of an NMD's clinical practice DO have evidence to show their effectiveness - i.e. nutrition and lifestyle management.

NMD's in these states that also allow for the training and prescribing of drugs & doing minor surgery work hand in hand with allopathic EBM. I have chronic BPH and am prone to UTI's. My NMD can prescribe an antibiotic for a full blown infection AND suggest the use of cranberry extract for preventive care. And here is the empirical research to back up such a usage -
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/263426.php

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
251. The issue is one of credibility, homeopathy doesn't work, not in the sense...
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:21 PM
Dec 2013

that it could work, but that it is absolutely impossible to actually work, so lumping it in with stuff that does work just damages their credibility.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
244. So nutrition and lifestyle management have not been studied empirically?
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 10:58 PM
Dec 2013

Please. There is tons of research out there used by allopathic MD's & DO's daily in their treatment of heart disease, diabetes, etc. from the Mediterranean Diet to exercising 30 minutes a day, to Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction.

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
33. I agree
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:20 PM
Dec 2013

Science is not immune to the influence of corporate marketing and money. Nor is it perfect in its method of generally treating a lot of research as 'isolated' instead of interconnected; I'm thinking of the GM research that doesn't take into account the multitude of interactions / combinations with the actual real world.

Science also has it's share of dogma, sacred truths, and hierarchy that are reluctant to change direction if 'new' ideas threaten it.

Of course, same applies to naturopathy - or *any* human activity - the error is thinking one system is perfect, when it is actually made of of real people. Or thinking that a perfectly 'logical' system would in any case be the right system - logical systems thinking by our top scientists in the 1950's 'logically' lobbied for nuking the Russians.



 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
96. Oh damn, I remember those, people can just be nuts.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 03:52 PM
Dec 2013

Then again, there are way too many people in this thread who seem to want us to live in grass huts and have as much as 1 in 3 women die in childbirth because "science is poison".

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
112. a dogmatist
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 04:30 PM
Dec 2013

"Science" does not exist by itself - it's a human activity. And like it or not, subject to our 'humans' frailties and limitations / filters of what we call reality.

Stick your head in the sand, but until you realize that simple fact - you're no better than the supporters of the theocracies of old.


Don't think that makes me a supporter of magik fairy crystals and stuff. I abhor real 'woo'. I just see too much blind faith in 'science' that doesn't take into account the actual complexities of the real world - but dismisses any legitimate challenge as woo. Of course that doesn't make science bad, as it is the best we (fallible) people have.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
117. Science is a process designed to reduce and try to eliminate the things you criticize it for....
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:02 PM
Dec 2013

My only reasonable assumption is that you are ignorant of the scientific method.

MattBaggins

(7,897 posts)
140. Science does deal with complexities of the real world
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:59 PM
Dec 2013

unlike woo though, it doesn't need to make them up pit of thin air.

MattBaggins

(7,897 posts)
135. Baloney
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:52 PM
Dec 2013

The problems in healthcare are not an excuse to go off the deep end into a giant lake of steaming bullshit

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
13. I have the equine equivalent of tri-athalon athletes and we use all that "woo"
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:09 AM
Dec 2013

Chiropractic, acupuncture, natural herbal remedies, massage therapy - you name it, we use it.

Why? Because we love to throw away our money?

Nope, because it works. With animals you don't get a "placebo" effect. They can't "fake" a cure. There's either a result or there isn't.

These sport horses are competitive athletes - they are monitored, scrutinized and evaluated to the nth degree every single day - our vets work closely with, and oftentimes prescribe, all of the "woo" we use.



Tumbulu

(6,268 posts)
132. This group ignores any evidence that they cannot understand
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:46 PM
Dec 2013

which is not the sign of a true scientist.

Sort of sad, really. But anyone actually producing things and growing crops or animals understands.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
204. What complete bullshit.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 09:23 PM
Dec 2013

If you can actually provide some evidence that isn't torn to shreds for being a load of crap to begin with, then maybe we can talk.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
280. Given that you are describing almost exactly what science does....
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:22 AM
Dec 2013

...I think the problem with an unwillingness to observe reality is NOT on the part of science.

Tumbulu

(6,268 posts)
289. I am describing what the scientific discipline requires of us
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 03:04 PM
Dec 2013

but a whole big group on DU who claim to be scientists and or skeptics (as though this is some technical term) refuse to allow themselves to observe anything whose proposed mechanism of activity makes little or no intellectual sense to them. So, they simply refuse to acknowledge it, or try to understand how or why it could be.

Very limited and fundamentalist in my book, Exactly what they make fun of all the time.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
293. Do you have an example?
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 03:46 PM
Dec 2013

Because it sounds to me like you're describing scepticism of things for which there is no physical evidence, and if so, that's by definition NOT science.

Tumbulu

(6,268 posts)
314. Just look at how the squad jumps all over anyone
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 01:51 AM
Dec 2013

who posts anything about responses to homeopathic remedies.

They will not agree to fathom that there can possibly be any response to them, simply because it is impossible that they could work.

People post all sorts of examples of how they worked for them, but all they can post is how it is impossible that the explanation of their activity could explain it. But never will they acknowledge the reality of the posters who respond. It simply cannot work, so all evidence is ignored or dismissed as crazy.

very tiring.

Real scientists would be curious of the outcomes and then seek to understand how a response could be generated. They would not dismiss the evidence, they would search for a better explanation of the mechanism.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
315. You're talking about people relaying anecdotes, and anecdotes are not data.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 01:56 AM
Dec 2013

And unless it is on a topic that hasn't already been studied, then exactly what level of curiosity do you expect people to muster? "Gee, here's something that's been shown to not work time and time again, but here's the one person on the internet who claims it worked great! Time to tuck back in!"

Sorry, but anecdotes are NOT evidence, and when said anecdotes completely conflict with established science, without providing a more solid basis for its assertion, then they should rightly be dismissed.

Tumbulu

(6,268 posts)
317. No, we are not talking about anecdotes here
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:24 PM
Dec 2013

Look at the post above us, the person who raises and trains sports horses for a living. Look at the idiotic replies- get a new vet, etc.

As if this person would pay money to vets for useless help. As if these particular vets are idiots.

Where I am vets use all sorts of practices that the folks on DU would call woo. It just demonstrates how blind the DU "skeptic" squad is. And how out of date they are. And how they sort of are an embarrassment to liberals.

Vets were the first to embrace the use of Glucosamine on sports horses back in the early 80's, now it is a very popular and successful human supplement as well. Those of us who have organic livestock use homeopathic remedies quite a bit. To suggest that my sheep are fooled by a placebo, when I simply pour something into their water trough, is beyond preposterous. Do these methods work oftentimes, yes. Do they ever fail, yes. So, just because you or I do not understand how or why they could possibly work, why dismiss any actual evidence. And there is plenty of evidence, not just those who take the trouble to post their personal stories on a message board. Frankly I have stopped participating in these ridiculous arguments as I have decided that the most vociferous "skeptics" are simply frightened out of their minds. They just cannot handle it. I recall feeling the same way about homeopathy. I fell off my horse, my teacher popped these homeopathic arnica sugar things into my mouth and had me take them every 15 minutes and I never got a bruise and was completely OK. I keep arnica in my purse at all times now, 20 years later, it is unbelievable to me that it works. But my goodness, the amazing reduction in bruising is not deniable. And I could care less that I do not understand how it could possibly work and that someone can prove that it does not.

Why would successful vets, and livestock and sport horse breeders use all these methods if they did not work? Of course none of us may understand why they are working, or think that it is possible that the current explanations of why they work are believable. But so what? Why does one limit their observations and collection of evidence to only the things that they can explain? This is the opposite of how a real scientist approaches life.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
322. I have to admit I'm flabbergasted at the knee-jerk reactions here
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 06:11 PM
Dec 2013

I've never participated in these kinds of threads before and so I guess I've kind of floated along in my own bubble that of COURSE everyone would be open to potential therapies.

I remember (in 1985!) when one of my vets injected snake venom into a tendon to try to stop muscle spasms. I thought that was pretty crazy. Of course botox is now a common practice for humans...

Glucosamine, chrondroitin sulfate, MSM - yup all of those came out of the sport horse world amongst so many other things that have helped not only horses but humans. The racehorse industry is WEALTHY and funds some of the top research - which helps ALL of us in the livestock industry. But if those vets decided beforehand that something was "woo" and refused to evaluate it, they'd be missing potential avenues of relief for millions of animals.

I for one am GRATEFUL for their open mindedness.



 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
332. If homeopathy works, its Nobel Prize winning, it would literally upend the entire scientific world..
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 08:24 PM
Dec 2013

we aren't talking about drugs or chemicals that work like they are supposed to in the real world, no we are talking about fucking magic water.

Tumbulu

(6,268 posts)
358. Me too
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 02:04 AM
Dec 2013

It is so amazing to me that people here dismiss things out of hand simply because they cannot understand how it could work.

I am so grateful for vets!

Tumbulu

(6,268 posts)
269. See, proof right here
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 03:24 AM
Dec 2013

Obviously limited to only observing what you can understand rather that what is going on. Very limited and not truly scientific.

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
15. Naturopath doctors are just like chiropractors: both are deeply steeped in woo.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:14 AM
Dec 2013

Neither should be licensed.

 

seattledo

(295 posts)
31. They're both faith-based healers
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:12 PM
Dec 2013

I worked for a chiropractor for about four months. I decided to start looking for another job when I heard the "doctor" telling a customer that she had cancer because her spine was out of alignment, and that he could cure it for only $3,600 for a series of twenty visits. He graduated from sherman.edu. You can go to their site and see all of the faith-based crap they push about how a massage can cure cancer.

Scout

(8,624 posts)
123. don't know what you're talking about "vitalism"...
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:17 PM
Dec 2013

my chiropractor has never mentioned it.

so, i don't even know what you're trying to say...

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
126. Chiropractic is based on the unproven hypothesis of "vitalism" from the 19th century....
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:24 PM
Dec 2013

its more or less a belief in a "life force", it leads to the belief that the body has an "innate intelligence" to heal itself. Straight chiropractors believe that vertebral subluxation leads to interference with an "innate intelligence" exerted via the human nervous system and is a primary underlying risk factor for many diseases. So they believe that manipulation of the spine can undo this interference and lead to cures for many diseases and conditions.

Granted not all Chiropractic practitioners are the same, and some are "mixers" basically they chuck away the stupid metaphysical stuff, don't claim to cure diseases, and basically become very expensive physical therapists for the spine, but less trained and more dangerous.

Scout

(8,624 posts)
285. "very expensive physical therapists for the spine, but less trained and more dangerous"
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 01:34 PM
Dec 2013

HA
well, after my car accident, my primary care doc, my chiropractor, and my physical therapist worked very well together ... my chiropractor said i would need physical therapy and ultrasound treatments (i had 7 broken ribs, dislocated collarbone, broken left hip, and strained the ligaments (tendons? i forget) in one place in my back and in my neck. my primary care doctor concurred, and she prescribed the therapy. the physical therapist and the chiropractor consulted by phone before and during my weeks of therapy. i had several check-ups during the process with my primary care physician.

10 weeks after the accident, i had only a little aggravation from the broken ribs, but was otherwise FINE. i was back riding horses after a few weeks more.

you can call it woo all you want, but i know it works.

smart people know that with chiropractors, like MDs, some are charlatans, some aren't. you admitted as much yourself.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
127. Chiropractic is a pseudo-science. The argument that "adjustment" can prevent disease...
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:31 PM
Dec 2013

Is totally without merit.

Chiropractic follows the path of many other pseudo-sciences like acupuncture in that they are all based on antiquated medical knowledge.

Tumbulu

(6,268 posts)
360. See, unwilling to observe evidence
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 02:26 AM
Dec 2013

Because you fundamentally cannot believe it can work.

Very limiting and simplistic.

Tumbulu

(6,268 posts)
371. sorry, you do not seem to be reading the posts here.
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 03:13 AM
Dec 2013

please, it is really not scary. People use things that work, whether we can understand the mechanism of action or not.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
373. Testimonials don't mean anything without it being repeatable and testable...
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 03:18 AM
Dec 2013

its anecdotal and is only a single point of data that is worthless without some type of control.

Scout

(8,624 posts)
382. do x-rays count?
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 11:09 AM
Dec 2013

my before and after x-rays show the changes.

since i guess my word isn't enough that my back pain is gone

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
389. Has nothing to do with your word, it has to do with it being repeated and being...
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 04:58 PM
Dec 2013

testable in a clinical setting, with MORE THAN ONE DATA POINT, why are those of you who advocate for this stuff so opposed to it being tested?

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
395. Also, I just wanted to point out that manipulation of the spine, by ANYONE...
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 05:15 PM
Dec 2013

trained about the anatomy of the spine can help and display positive results. Doesn't say much about Chiropractic as a whole practice though, a lot of it is just bullshit.

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
142. Other posters here in this very thread have pointed that out.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 06:01 PM
Dec 2013

I'm not going to repeat what they said.

Scout

(8,624 posts)
284. how are taking and reading x-rays, woo?
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 01:21 PM
Dec 2013

funny, if chiropractic was just "woo" you wouldn't think Blue Cross would cover my visits...

if chiropractic is "woo", why is it that, after years of muscle relaxers, physical therapy, a heel lift for one foot--all conventional medicine, none of which worked--my chiropractor got rid of the pain in my lower back that i've had for the better part of my life (almost 40 years since i first had the pain, until it was eliminated). oh yeah, the conventional doctors all said "lose weight" which i have done over the years with varying degrees of success at losing and at keeping off. but guess what? fat or not, the back problem did not go away!!

do i use my chiropractor to prevent colds? the flu? no, i use the chiropractor to keep my spine aligned.

but you're convinced that you, oh mighty one, (and the others) just know everything all about it, aren't you? so i guess i've wasted my little bit of time here. oh well.

pnwmom

(108,950 posts)
254. With regard to naturopathic doctors, the National Institutes of Health,
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:36 PM
Dec 2013

which funds naturopathic research, and the State of Washington, among other states, disagree with you.

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
73. Considering how much scientific and evidence based medicine cures
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 03:03 PM
Dec 2013

and how little harm it does, then tolerating the quacks should be outlawed.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
181. As far as I'm concerned, most modern medicine is still quackery.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 08:31 PM
Dec 2013

A small percentage of the medicine they prescribe does any real good.

TransitJohn

(6,932 posts)
184. Totally. Heart transplants, prosthetics, total quackery.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 08:38 PM
Dec 2013

Along with the drugs that keep the body from rejecting transplanted organs.
Reattaching limbs and restoring their functionality? Woo.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
191. Those are extreme cases, not by any means the end result of most doctor visits.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 08:50 PM
Dec 2013

Too many of you attackers assume that people who are for natural methods are against all forms of drugs or surgery.

Sorry, I don't fit into your simplistic view.
 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
189. Ahh, the good old days. When smallpox killed millions, polio killed hundreds of thousands...
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 08:46 PM
Dec 2013

and maimed countless more, when getting an effing paper cut could kill you from sepsis, etc. It was SO much better than relying on modern day quackery. lol

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
94. Have you looked up what some herbal supplements do to the human body?
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 03:44 PM
Dec 2013

Especially when taken too often? This is assuming the herbal supplement you buy actually contains what it says it contains, see, there's NO regulation of that in the United States, leading to a lot of people buy some really expensive wheat and rice flour in pill form.

MattBaggins

(7,897 posts)
144. How about if we give the crazy homeless guy a chance?
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 06:02 PM
Dec 2013

My mechanic has made mistakes so I'm going to hire someone to massage the tires.

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
145. You do know that supplements you buy at health stores is very expensive pee, right?
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 06:03 PM
Dec 2013

It doesn't do any good. In fact, many of those supplements can hurt you if you take too many.

Most of them don't get absorbed by the body. They are water-soluble and come out your pee.

 

FairWinds

(1,717 posts)
24. There is a difference . .
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:58 AM
Dec 2013

between science-based health care, and that which is not.
I'll take the former.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
25. Naturopathy is science, and evidence based, medicine
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:02 PM
Dec 2013

Its things like nutrition, exercise, massage, natural, non-pharmaceutical remedies, etc.

People on this thread seem to be confusing it with homeopathic medicine, which isn't science; it's things like aromatherapy, magnets, candles, scented oils, etc.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
28. About those non-pharmaceutical remedies....
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:09 PM
Dec 2013

They have little or no empirically-based studies to support their effectiveness.

2naSalit

(86,248 posts)
98. and why would that be?
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 04:04 PM
Dec 2013

Because the medical industrial complex wouldn't allow any studies to be peer reviewed unless they are based on synthetic drugs rather than natural elements?

Maybe that would be why there are no studies. I, personally, have been studying natural health and remedies for decades and prefer those methods of maintaining my health and well being to paying untold sums to someone who can't figure out what the problems are and don't really give a rat's ass what the problems actually are as long as they can sell me costly synthetics and continued useless office visits and hospital tests that turn out to indicate anything other than eternal debt. All this while the alleged Dr. gets their kick-backs from big pharma and whomever else they can squeeze.

I'll take the natural path and live healthier and less inhibited than most folks. I treat only myself but will share my remedies that I make myself with those who ask me to share with them, I don't charge them anything... on occasion I have asked them to procure the ingredients for me to use in the making of remedies.

Call it names if you like but there are many who aren't interested in the "scientific" big pharma financed woo.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
160. There ARE studies. They just showed that they didnt work as advertised.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 07:07 PM
Dec 2013

THAT is why there are no studies. Not because "big-pharma" prevents it, but because the studies that HAVE been done showed that what was being tested DIDNT work.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
381. Is there a point you were trying to make?
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 09:17 AM
Dec 2013

Or are you just distracting from the issue were discussing.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
32. Naturopathic doctors are taught, and promote homeopathy...
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 12:12 PM
Dec 2013


HOM100
Homeopathic Medicine I
This introductory course in homeopathic medicine introduces the basic concepts of homeopathy, including: an introduction to the history, principles and philosophy of homeopathic medicine; repertory; principles of homeopathic treatment; first aid prescribing; acute prescribing; and basic case-taking.



HOM204
Homeopathic Medicine II
Students continue their study of homeopathic medicine, and discuss the underpinning principles and philosophy, using The Organon of the Medical Art as a template. The materia medica of homeopathic remedies is taught according to their classification in the animal, plant or mineral kingdoms, as well as the families and/or groups within the kingdoms. Case studies are used to orient the student to the practical application of homeopathy, and students develop skills in homeopathic case taking, repertorizing, case analysis, and single-remedy prescribing taught in accordance with The Organon of the Medical Art. Textbooks and computer software are used in the delivery of the competencies, and students will have the choice to use hard copy book format or software format in case analysis.


HOM300i
Homeopathic Medicine III
Clinical exposure to case taking, case analysis and case management are the focus of this course, which consolidates knowledge from HOM100, HOM202 and HOM203. Real cases are presented and managed by advanced practitioners who are experienced in the field of homeopathic medicine. This gives students the opportunity to witness various styles of homeopathic practice rooted in a classical homeopathic approach. Additionally, students prepare for their internship through independent study of acute and first aid materia medica.


Those courses are part of the curriculum offered toward the ND designation at the Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine.
http://www.ccnm.edu/prospective_students/bridge/curriculum

Sid
 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
47. At least homeopathic medicines do no harm
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 01:34 PM
Dec 2013

Since they have been diluted until there are no active ingredients in them.

The LD50 for water is pretty high.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
93. Actually it depends, some of the places that make "homeopathic pills"...
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 03:39 PM
Dec 2013

have been found to contain broken glass and other contaminants, at least in Britain, here in the United States, I don't even think that the U.S. government is empowered to inspect such factories for safety.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
107. There was also the Zicam case a few years ago...
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 04:21 PM
Dec 2013

Zicam was an homeopathic zinc nasal spray which caused hundreds of people to lose their sense of smell. 'Course, the homeopathic dilution was only 2X, which meant that the mixture still had enough zinc in it to actually do harm.

If Zicam had only marketed a "stronger" 20X or 20C version of their product, nobody would have been harmed at all.

Sid

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
108. Isn't that the one that causes anosmia? Losing your sense of smell...
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 04:25 PM
Dec 2013

the fucked up part is I think its still on store shelves.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
111. Yup, that was the one...
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 04:27 PM
Dec 2013

as far as I know, Zicam in pill form is still available, but the nasal spray has been discontinued.

Sid

u4ic

(17,101 posts)
129. I, and many, lost the sense of smell from Flonase
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:42 PM
Dec 2013

and that's still on the market. Many nasal steroids have the same effect.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
134. Its a rare side affect, at least you were informed of it before hand...
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:47 PM
Dec 2013

Zicam is available over the counter, had no warnings at the time, and is unregulated.

On edit, just a note, but severe allergies can also lead to anosmia.

u4ic

(17,101 posts)
136. No I wasn't informed
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:53 PM
Dec 2013

until AFTER it happened. It's not a rare side effect, either. Nasal perforations with that medication are rare, but not losing ones sense of smell.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
100. So do some veterinary schools. Are they quacks too?
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 04:09 PM
Dec 2013

The veterinary industry utilizes a fair few homeopathic remedies - from liniments to herbal teas.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
260. Gosh thanks! 25+ years of using arnica and other homeopathic remedies
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 01:32 AM
Dec 2013

At the direction of my vets means I'm clearly ignorant! Have been debunked by an internet guy! Phew!

Thanks for that.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
261. What's the dilution on the arnica you use?...
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 01:38 AM
Dec 2013

Edit: Please tell me it's a 1M dilution, like the homeopathic arnica found at horsehomeopathy.com.

Pretty please.

Sid

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
265. Don't know at the moment. I'm about to go to bed
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 02:00 AM
Dec 2013

And the arnica is in the barn.

Whatever the dilution is however, it works or we wouldn't use it at the direction of licensed clinical vets.

And if our vets didn't provide relief to our horses we'd fire them.

My business as a trainer is 100% results oriented. If the horse can't perform I'm fired so I have a vested interest in things that are demonstrably proven to work.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
169. As repeated before, the horses can't lie. It either works or not.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 07:45 PM
Dec 2013

There's restored functionality or not. Its pretty simple.

I'm grateful they use every tool available - including homeopathy, and alternative meds like chiropractic, acupuncture and massage. They go beyond "meaning well" to making the animal well.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
166. Sorry but the horses can't lie. They either get restored functionality or not from the remedies
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 07:41 PM
Dec 2013

There's no placebo effect with animals.

Virtually every top international equine athlete is equipped with (gasp!) magnets prescribed by the best vets in the world (eek! quacks galore!) and chiropractic and acupuncture and massage therapy and yes, even (dare I say it?!) arnica!




MattBaggins

(7,897 posts)
218. Of course they are
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 09:51 PM
Dec 2013

There are a lot of folks in that world with more money then sense. Easy marks for scam artists.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
259. Either the animal is restored to functionality or it isn't.
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 01:26 AM
Dec 2013

Either the horse can jump 5 foot or it cannot.

That isn't a scam nor is it a mirage.

You can't make the horse do it if they are physically unable. They'll simply lie down or worse. If the chiro isnt working NO owner/vet/trainer will simply continue with the treatment in some vain hope of a result. You expose your ignorance of professional sports (or even a one horse amateur) with each stupid comment. 1. We want success and 2. We care about the horses and 3. Nobody will continue to dump $$ into a treatment that isnt effective. Nobody. From a billionaire sheikh to a backyard amateur.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
180. You seem to be confusing herbalism with homeopathy...
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 08:25 PM
Dec 2013

Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

If it isn't just water, it isn't homeopathy.

Let me put it this way, homeopathy isn't just nonsense, the underlying ideas behind it are so nonsensical that IF it actually worked, then the past 500 years of scientific discoveries, ALL OF THEM, would be disproved.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
281. Animals cannot manufacture a placebo effect.
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:41 AM
Dec 2013

A treatment either works or it doesn't.

A horse has a sore back and won't tolerate a saddle. The vet does some chiro and acupuncture after which you can put a saddle on. Horses have a brain the size of a walnut - they can't rationalize "oh that woman stuck needles in me and so NOW I'm feeling better". They don't have the ability to "fool" themselves that suddenly they feel better because of a treatment.

It either works or it doesn't.

If it doesn't work, nobody's going to continue that treatment without a result. Sport horses aren't pasture ornaments - people have paid a shitload of money for a horse they want to compete with and learn on.

FWIW, horses have very specific ways of communicating when they're getting relief or they're relaxing - licking, chewing, sighing, yawning. The next time a horse of mine raps his knees on a fence and I'm applying arnica gel to the area, I'll let them know Humanist_Activist - the great equine expert - tells me that their relief-response isn't possible.




 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
291. Don't move the goalposts, and don't lump in other, unrelated treatments with homeopathy...
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 03:23 PM
Dec 2013

That was the thing we were talking about, why not stick to the subject at hand, or do you realize you have no argument when it comes to that?

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
320. I don't know and don't care. I (and my vets) just know it works
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 06:01 PM
Dec 2013

to reduce bruising and swelling.

Since drugs are prohibited (and tested for) in horse sports, you can't administer any pain relievers or anti-inflammatories so treatments like arnica are front line. Our horses do the human equivalent of the tri-athlon but before they move on to the next phase they are held for 10 minutes and extensively evaluated by a team of vets. At the upper levels these are the best vets in the US as they are evaluating them for international competitions.

And they recommend homeopathic drugs like arnica for bruising, stiffness and swelling. Like I said, the horses can't "lie" and manufacture a placebo effect. It either works or it doesn't.

I think its interesting how many human treatments have evolved from equine competition research. Of course, the racehorse industry is extremely rich and they heavily subsidize research into innovative treatments so they are often on the front line of experimentation. Equine research has to rely on strict observation and evaluation in order to test efficacy since their test patients can't articulate a verbal response.

I've never participated in these threads before and I'm pretty amused at the resistance of many people on this thread to "woo". No worries for me. I'm utterly comfortable being open-minded about trying products that may help my horses.




SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
321. Well you can be sure that 1M Homeopathic Arnica won't be detected during testing...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 06:09 PM
Dec 2013

because the chance that there is a single molecule of arnica being in the 1M homeopathic solution is infinitesimal.

Sid

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
325. Just went out to the barn to check - its Arnica Montana
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 06:56 PM
Dec 2013

in both the gel and tabs.

But thanks for being so concerned that my horses might be faking their relief from a scam product!



SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
327. I asked about the dilution...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 07:17 PM
Dec 2013

The dilution is kind of the most important thing, when talking about homeopathy.

Sid

BuddhaGirl

(3,598 posts)
329. It's interesting, that there's no placebo effect with animals.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 07:20 PM
Dec 2013

Great testimony to the healing effects of homeopathy!

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
331. I don't know why you are celebrating, this poster is being dishonest at the very least...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 08:21 PM
Dec 2013

first off, and let me just make this crystal clear, homeopathy is just fucking water. In addition, this poster failed to mention the dilution level of the treatment for horses, all we have is this poster's "testimony" which is about as believable as the testimony of "ex-homosexuals".

BuddhaGirl

(3,598 posts)
335. I like hearing positive testimonials about the success of using homeopathy.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 08:49 PM
Dec 2013

There are waaayyyy more important things in life to be annoyed about than whether someone uses homeopathy, don't you think?



 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
337. That poster isn't using homeopathy, but a plant based gel that has an anti-inflammatory affect...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 08:53 PM
Dec 2013

homeopathy cannot work, period.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
340. Its about honestly, I would think it matters, this isn't a matter of opinion...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 09:06 PM
Dec 2013

but of fact and truth. This poster has admitted to using a gel containing Arnica Montana, they have refused to mention how much of a dilution it actually is, most likely they are talking about a 50% solution, which is NOT homeopathy, at all, but rather, herbalism.

Tumbulu

(6,268 posts)
361. Really, get a grip
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 02:42 AM
Dec 2013

arnica (homeopathic) is a backbone in animal care. Please just give it up.

It works on most animals amazingly well. It helps me very much.

Your insitance that IT CANNOT WORK is preposterous.

Go out to a competitive barn, look in the tack rooms. Come to my farm, go to an organic dairy. We all use homeopathic remedies on our animals. Our vets have us keep certain ones on hand to use until they can get to our farms.

Really, I suggest that you open up your eyes and mind.

It does not matter that it cannot work. it works for a whole lot of aimals and many people, that is what matters.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
365. Arnica ISN'T PRESENT in homeopathic preparations...
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 02:57 AM
Dec 2013

My fiancee has a topical ointment that has Arnica, Menthol, and Camphor in it, and its great at temporarily relieving joint pain. Why? Because it actually has those ingredients in it, not some magical memory water.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
372. Describe to me how it can be present in a solution at 30C, or 1 part per 10^60 of water...
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 03:16 AM
Dec 2013

when that far exceeds the molar limit.

Tumbulu

(6,268 posts)
401. Not knowing how it works does not stop me from
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 05:51 PM
Dec 2013

observing it's action. The explanations given for it's activity do not make sense to me. But so what? I personally do not have the time to venture into a research project to figure out why it is working. I have enough of my own discovery projects going on.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
403. So basically, to you, confirmation bias is enough. See, I would want to know.
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 05:53 PM
Dec 2013

Even you admit that its "activity" doesn't make any sense, isn't it possible that what you are observing is either confirmation bias and/or the placebo affect?

ON EDIT: To put it simply, this is a situation where Occam's razor is very helpful, and most likely leads to the truth, for example, in order for homeopathy to work, water(or other substances, like sugar) would have to have a type of memory, that means a storage medium, which can only exist at either the molecular, atomic, or subatomic level. We have yet to observe this, at all, indeed, we actually understand particle physics quite well. So, in order for there to be room for this memory, our entire understanding of the entire universe would have to be wrong, from subatomic particles to supernova, pretty much every field of science would be affected, physics, chemistry, biology, etc.

Or, more likely, you are displaying confirmation bias or experiencing the placebo affect.

Which do you think is more likely?

Tumbulu

(6,268 posts)
416. Honestly, you cannot observe something
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 09:56 PM
Dec 2013

without an acceptable understanding of its mechanism?

This is very limiting.

Go make your own observations. I have made mine and am satisfied enough to keep arnica on hand at all times in my purse and various remedies on my farm for the sheep.

The horse trainer above has made her decisions as do all the vets who use them.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
421. Is it arnica or a placebo(homeopathic "preparation", whatever), there is a difference...
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 10:24 PM
Dec 2013

same for other remedies, don't call something homeopathic if it isn't, that's dishonest.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
336. Look what I found, a mechanism for Arnica Montana to work on horses!
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 08:52 PM
Dec 2013

A little research goes a long way!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17318618

It has an anti-inflammatory affect similar to NSAIDS when used in a gel of 50% concentration, however, ingesting it isn't recommended, it contains some poisons that can cause intestinal bleeding.

Of course, nothing I said above applies to homeopathic preparations of it. Which would contain little to none of the active ingredients needed to actually work.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
341. The tablets say 30c.The gel has no indication. I've already said it works
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 10:18 PM
Dec 2013

15 tabs every 15 minutes for the first 2 hours. Followed by 15 tabs every hour for 24 hours (yes I have staff that helps with this). After which its every 6 hours as needed.

My my. I almost think you are wanting free medical advice. Tsk. Tsk. Your increasing agitation notwithstanding over the homeopathic dosage I use (which works by the way as per the dosing rx of my vets - yes plural as is common with sport horses I have 5 on call from 5 different vet offices, who are specialists in their area and who all prescribe arnica) the bottom line is that any homeopathic remedy was garbage in your opinion. Now its a question of strength?!

Lol.

I'm done here. You all got nothing. When your beloved dog/cat/bird/hamster - whatever needs relief and you find it with alternative medicine I won't laugh, mock or say I told ya so.

I don't give a shit about laughably ignorant DUers when it comes to those under my care, custody and control. I will do what gives them relief.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
342. So the pill contains nothing in it, the gel most likely does, and you claim I am ignorant...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 10:21 PM
Dec 2013

look up the dilution levels if you don't believe me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathic_dilutions

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
347. You keep repeating this, and while its true, its also irrelevent...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 10:42 PM
Dec 2013

if the pill is nothing but a placebo in the first place, what is helping your animals?

Also note that the gel probably actually contains an active ingredient, I don't know, I haven't tested it, but the point remains, at the dilution level you just stated, there is NO Arnica extracts in the tablet, none.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
350. Prayer? (I'm an atheist). Some "woo"vibe in my barn
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:05 PM
Dec 2013

And at every international eventing competition on the face of the planet including the Olympics?

Magic?

Some archaic arnica gawd interferences?

Or maybe like willow bark in the days before it was commodified into aspirin, or snake venom was manufactured into Botox, there's been no idea these remedies are valid?

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
351. Willow bark contain Salicin, which metabolizes into salycyclic acid in the body...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:12 PM
Dec 2013

which provides temporary pain relief in the body. Asprin is acetylsalicylic acid, which operates in a similar way in the body and is also easier on the stomach. You have yet to demonstrate ANY active ingredient in the homeopathic solution you have mentioned. What is in it that works? Its a simple question, a question I can answer about damn near every medicine I have ever taken, given to any of my animals, etc. whether prescribed or taken from cuttings off of plants I have cultivated or found myself, at least I know enough about chemistry and biology to know what is going on in general terms, and if I don't know a particular answer, I can research it easily enough.

So how does the homeopathic medicine work?

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
353. Just did the math, the Arnica, in order to be diluted to 30C, had to be dissolved in a body of...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:23 PM
Dec 2013

water that was in a tank that is a cube that is at least 31 million kilometers on each side. And that is for ONE molecule of Arnica dissolved in 29,915,093,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 liters of water.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
352. Gosh then I'll have to SOMEHOW communicate to these horses they've been duped
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:23 PM
Dec 2013

All across the million member eventing community as well as my own 40 horse pro-sport barn that some internet dude says all of our horses are FAKING their recovery.

And my highly educated cynical-to-the-extreme vets.

Lol.

This is incredibly amusing.

Really.

(Small wry chuckle as I exit the convo)

Tumbulu

(6,268 posts)
362. So now it is down to personal insults
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 02:48 AM
Dec 2013

this is really low, simply because you cannot understand how something can work, those who use it to help their animals are now failures in science. No, this attitude that since it cannot be understood, it cannot be is the failure.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
364. As of right now, no one in this thread has described a way for homeopathy to work...
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 02:54 AM
Dec 2013

from what I have read, it cannot work without violating the laws of physics and chemistry. If anyone can demonstrate the effectiveness of any homeopathic remedy in a double blind study, and are able to describe how it works within biological processes, then I will pay attention, until then, it is nothing more than magic.

Tumbulu

(6,268 posts)
369. No, you have decided that it is magic
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 03:10 AM
Dec 2013

and you dismiss everything that anyone takes their precious time to share on this public board that you cannot understand.

And then you insult them, really this is not OK. it turns people off.

BuddhaGirl

(3,598 posts)
357. LOL
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:52 PM
Dec 2013

"All across the million member eventing community as well as my own 40 horse pro-sport barn that some internet dude says all of our horses are FAKING their recovery."

Good one!

BuddhaGirl

(3,598 posts)
343. It's amusing how annoyed they become
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 10:28 PM
Dec 2013

Just ignore the nay-sayers....really, it doesn't matter what they say, you won't change their minds and they won't change yours.

The only important thing is, is that you continue your success with homeopathy and your animals. I've used homeopathy on animals and have had success as well. There is no placebo with animals and its amazing to see the response to the medicine.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
345. Do you really think water contains a memory of things dissolved in it in the past?
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 10:29 PM
Dec 2013

Do you honestly think water is magic?

ON EDIT: Its like I'm talking to flat-Earthers or Creationists, I just don't understand how people can be gleefully ignorant of the natural world to this extent, its sad.

Tumbulu

(6,268 posts)
363. it has nothing to do with belief
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 02:51 AM
Dec 2013

and everything to do with trial and error and observation of cause and effect.

Really, open your eyes and observe.