Colorado school shooting: Armed guards the answer?

[Lasher]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Agschmid (a host of the General Discussion forum).

An armed deputy sheriff at Arapahoe High School in Colorado likely prevented a school shooting there from being worse, officials say, ending the episode in less than two minutes.

As they investigate the latest school shooting in the United States – Friday at Arapahoe High School in Centennial, Colo. – one thing is clear to law enforcement officials there: The presence of an armed deputy sheriff on regular duty at the school was the key factor in preventing more deaths and injuries.

As soon as he heard the first of five gunshots, that officer and the two school administrators he was talking to raced toward the commotion shouting their presence and ordering students and staff to follow the school’s lock-down protocol.

As a result, Arapahoe County Sheriff Grayson Robinson said at a briefing Saturday afternoon, the heavily-armed shooter realized he was about to be confronted by an armed officer, and he took his own life.

“We believe that that action was absolutely critical to the fact that we didn’t have more deaths and injuries,” Sheriff Robinson said. The whole episode – from the time the shooter entered the school until he shot himself – lasted just one minute and 20 seconds.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2013/1214/Colorado-school-shooting-Armed-guards-the-answer

Lives were likely saved according to Sheriff Robinson. That's a good thing, right?

[Recursion]

1. What's the question? School violence is at the lowest level on record

Schools are literally safer now than at any point since WWII. Why are we talking about changing what we're doing?

[reformist2]

6. Good point. We need to stop "nationalizing" every tragedy. We are a country of 300 million people...

...and every time there is an tragic incident at a school - or anywhere, for that matter - we act as
if the country were some little village where it affects all of us closely and personally. It's crazy.
We need a little perspective.

[Lasher]

12. Armed SROs have been around since 1953.

It's something we've been doing and it looks like it worked in this case.

[Recursion]

14. In that time, school violence has skyrocketed and then plummeted

That screams "orthogonal" to me.

[SecularMotion]

2. This is a poor example for the gun lobby to use to promote armed officers in schools

The knowledge that there was an armed deputy sheriff on regular duty at the school obviously did not deter the shooter from his actions. And from all accounts I've read the officer never actually confronted the shooter, nor is it clear if the shooter's suicide was a direct result of the approaching officer.

[Bazinga]

8. I agree, to an extent.

I have posted before about the fallacy that active shooters select gun-free zones. Though that certainly seemed to be a factor in the Aurora movie theatre shooting, most often the location is selected because there is a target of personal importance to the shooter at that location; school bullies, a congresswoman, a disliked teacher, etc.

Just as no gun-control law could ever prevent an event like this from occurring, no pro-gun policy will ever prevent one either. The issues then become what will we do to identify those who need our help before they get to this point, and if those efforts fail, what will we do to minimize the consequences of that failure.

One thing we do know, the longer an active shooter situation endures, the higher the casualty count. Thus, the major variable to be considered is response time. Furthermore, the level of response required to end these situations has typically been very low. In general, these shooters will fold at the first sign of resistance.

I'm not an expert, I'm just a guy with an opinion. But does it not stand to reason that having a first line of defense, however small it may be, has the potential to save lives? Especially when we consider that the alternative is no defense as occurred at Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, etc. Poor examples indeed.

[SecularMotion]

15. Funny how the gun lobby's solution to problems like this is always more guns.

The fantasy of a good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun is what drives private ownership of guns for self-defense. In reality, these situations rarely play out in favor of the good guy. Adding more guns to the equation, increases the potential for violence. We need to do more as a society to decrease the need and availability of guns.

[Bazinga]

16. Agreed again, and again to an extent.

There is much we can and need to do to reduce the need and availability of guns, though I would say that reducing the need would do more than reducing the availability. I also agree that the odds of an armed guard stopping a situation such as this are minimal, and an armed citizen even less. However, those odds are much, much higher than the odds that an unarmed person stops an active shooter.

I disagree that adding an armed guard somehow increases the potential for violence, it certainly didn't in this case. Perhaps you can provide an example of where that has occurred.

[SecularMotion]

18. Several mass shootings have been stopped by unarmed people

The slim chance of a shooting at a school does not justify the presence of a gun in all other minor incidents that may occur with students at school. Just as the use of tasers by school guards have escalated minor incidents, giving a gun to school guards increases the potential for abuse.

[Bazinga]

29. I'll agree again.

The abuse of power surely complicates the matter. I'm not sure what the solution is if we can't trust those charged with the care of our children.

[beevul]

25. Right...and the anti-gun lobby would have everyone call 911 and summon whom?

Right...and the anti-gun lobby would have everyone call 911 and summon whom?

Yup. Someone with a gun.

Guess it isn't just the gun lobby whos answer is more guns.

[Lasher]

9. You think Sheriff Robinson is a gun lobbyist?

The armed deputy ran toward the shooter, announcing his presence. Sheriff Robinson says that action likely prevented more deaths. Do you wish the deputy wouldn't have been there?

[SecularMotion]

13. Keyword being "LIKELY"

I don't know Sheriff Robinson's opinions on gun issues outside of his official statements so I can't tell if he's a gun lobbyist or not. I have seen your posts on DU and they tend to support the agenda of the gun lobby.

[GreenEyedLefty]

3. The answer is locked in the heads of shooters and would-be shooters.

Until we comprehend the reason why people need to shoot people in such a grisly fashion... and get over the orgiastic love affair with guns, we might as well accept that it's going to keep happening. And happening. And happening.

Make schools into fortresses, they will simply find other targets...

[geckosfeet]

10. I agree about treating people before they go over the edge. Full mental health

care coverage for the everyone should be a societal norm. Unfortunately the people who need it most can't afford it, while the rich drop $100 an hour to talk about how unfulfilled they feel.

I disagree about these kinds of tragedies happening over and over. They do happen, but each one has it's roots in the problems and delusions of different people for different reasons. The fact that they pick up a gun with the intent of harming another human being is NOT the fault of the gun. The human made the decision. Take away the gun and they will use something else - perhaps less lethal but they still have their problems driving their behavior.

[jmowreader]

4. Armed guards will stop people intent on committing suicide-by-cop?

Two traits common to all recent mass shooters:

They have a death wish b/c someone kills all of them

And they want to take as many people as possible with them

If we could completely secure the schools, we'd have a rash of retirement home or daycare center rampages.

[Lasher]

11. No, but this one most likely saved some students' lives according to Sheriff Robinson.

I'm glad the armed guard was there to do that, aren't you?

[RandiFan1290]

5. No armed "guard" would be obligated to confront an active shooter

Just like the police that set up camp and have donuts and coffee while they wait for the shooting to stop.

[pintobean]

7. So, he ran to the library to save the donuts?

[Eleanors38]

22. So this guard happened down a hallway, looking for donuts?

I think the parents and students at Arapaho High would have a more charitable view of this honorable man.

[pintobean]

23. I doubt that he ever

has to buy another donut.

[pintobean]

17. I wonder why your previous thread was locked

It was pretty much the same as this one - just a different source.

Here's what Skinner says about sources in GD

LBN only permits reputable mainstream sources. GD does not have that limitation.

If a source is not reputable, people can reply (or send it to a jury) and explain why a source is not reputable. It all comes out in the discussion.

Having said that... if a source is a kooky conspiracy site or a hate site, then it might not be okay in GD either.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12593300

Your information was accurate and your source was not a kooky conspiracy site or a hate site.

[Lasher]

24. I'm not sure, the host forgot the locking statement.

It couldn't be because of the source because that is is not covered by the GD Forum SOP. A jury let my OP stand 5-1. GD Hosts aren't supposed to overrule jury decisions, are they?

To be honest, I think it's generally a better idea to keep gun threads out of GD. But since they are permitted for the time being, I'll participate too.

This kinda reminds me of prayer in schools. Some of my neighbors think it's a good idea. But what if somebody else wants to include a religion they don't like? Those same neighbors would have a big problem with it then. That's a good reason not to have prayer in public schools. Could it be that some of us want gun threads, but just the ones we like?

My point is, be careful what you wish for.

[pintobean]

27. Another interesting comment

by Skinner, from before the most recent gun exception.

Because most of the threads are anti-gun.

If the threads were pro-gun, then the alerts would be coming from the other side.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12594274

[gollygee]

19. Hmmm I don't know

We've seen so many articles about bad police officers who shoot people for holding puppies on the beach or whatever, I don't know. I wonder how many school shootings they'd stop, and I wonder how many kids they'd shoot for some stupid reason. Statistically, there aren't as many school shootings as there are stupid police officers who misuse their power.

BUT I do have to say that when I was in high school in the 80s we had a police officer whose beat was our school, and it was no big deal. He wasn't there to keep us safe from school shootings. He was there to try to control drug dealing and violence within the school.

[pintobean]

20. Violence within the school

would include gun violence, if it were to happen, would it not?

[gollygee]

21. Hmm I suppose that's possible

It was mostly an issue of knives though.

[JoePhilly]

26. How many armed guards do we put at my daughter's 4 acre high school campus?

Its comprised of multiple buildings and open areas.

Some of the buildings have multiple floors.

Where does this armed guard stand?

[Bazinga]

28. wherever he stands...

He'll be a lot closer than the nearest SWAT team.

[Agschmid]

30. Locking - Against forum SOP please report in gun groups.