"For an educated middle-class woman to face public arrest and a strip search is almost unimaginable"

[Liberal_in_LA]

Last edited Wed Dec 18, 2013, 09:27 PM - Edit history (1)

Devyani Khobragade Arrest In NYC 'Barbaric,' Says Father

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NEW DELHI (AP) — The arrest and alleged strip search of an Indian diplomat in New York City escalated into a major diplomatic furor Tuesday as India's national security adviser called the woman's treatment "despicable and barbaric."

Devyani Khobragade, India's deputy consul general in New York, is accused of submitting false documents to obtain a work visa for her Manhattan housekeeper. Indian officials said she was arrested and handcuffed Thursday as she dropped off her daughter at school, and was kept in a cell with drug addicts before posting $250,000 bail.

A senior Indian official confirmed reports that she also was strip-searched, which has been portrayed in India as the most offensive and troubling part of the arrest. The official spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the case.

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That reaction may look outsized in the United States, but the case touches on a string of issues that strike deeply in India, where the fear of public humiliation resonates strongly and heavy-handed treatment by the police is normally reserved for the poor. For an educated, middle-class woman to face public arrest and a strip search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes.

*** NOTE DELETE paragraphs due to copyright notification from DU admin***

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/17/devyani-khobragade-arrested-nyc_n_4460619.html?utm_hp_ref=world

[Xipe Totec]

1. The case touches on a string of issues that strike deeply in India? She's a diplomat FFS!

She is immune from US law.

I can't wait to see the retaliation against American diplomats in India.

[tblue37]

2. No, her diplomatic immunity doesn't affect this issue. nt

[Xipe Totec]

4. Orly?

Diplomatic immunity is a form of legal immunity and a policy held between governments that ensures that diplomats are given safe passage and are considered not susceptible to lawsuit or prosecution under the host country's laws, although they can still be extradited. It was agreed as international law in the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations (1961), though the concept and custom have a much longer history. Many principles of diplomatic immunity are now considered to be customary law. Diplomatic immunity as an institution developed to allow for the maintenance of government relations, including during periods of difficulties and even armed conflict. When receiving diplomats—who formally represent the sovereign—the receiving head of state grants certain privileges and immunities to ensure they may effectively carry out their duties, on the understanding that these are provided on a reciprocal basis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity

[Benton D Struckcheon]

7. From that same cite

Employer abuse[edit]

Diplomatic immunity from local employment and labor law when employing staff from the host country has precipitated abuse. The local staff are employed where local knowledge is needed (such as an administrative assistant, press/PR officer), or as menial staff like a cleaner, maid or mechanic. When the employer is a diplomat, the employees are in a legal limbo where the laws of neither the host country nor the diplomat's country are enforceable, so that an abusive diplomat employer can act with virtual impunity. Diplomats have ignored local laws concerning minimum wages, maximum working hours, vacation and holidays. The worst abusers have imprisoned the employees in their homes, deprived them of their earned wages, passports, and communication with the outside world, abused them physically and emotionally, deprived them of food and invaded their privacy.[52][53] In the case of corrupt countries and abusive diplomats, it has been virtually impossible to enforce payment of wages or any standards whatsoever. South Africa, for example, was criticised for claiming immunity from labor laws relating to a Ukrainian domestic worker at the residence of the South African ambassador to Ireland in Ireland.[54]
The American Civil Liberties Union filed an amicus brief in Swarna v. Al-Awadi to argue that human trafficking is a commercial activity engaged in for personal profit, which falls outside the scope of a diplomat’s official functions, and therefore diplomatic immunity does not apply.[55]

The ACLU lawsuit: https://www.aclu.org/womens-rights/swarna-v-al-awadi-amicus-brief

Obviously, there is some room for improvement here. Actual slavery should be prosecutable. This of course is a lesser violation, but the fact that an employee winds up in a legal limbo means they're powerless to help themselves out of an impossible situation.

[Xipe Totec]

152. Now, India has appointed her to its permanent mission at the United Nations

Khobragade's attorney Daniel Arshack said that, in her new role, she would have diplomatic immunity from prosecution retroactively.

However, the State Department would have to sign off on a request to move her from the consulate to the U.N. mission, and no such request has been received, Harf told reporters. She said the U.S. government notified India of the allegations against Khobragade in September.

It still leave the question open regarding the police having conducted a strip search and a cavity search. What were they looking for, her visa?

[Recursion]

16. When you enter a country as a diplomat you're accredited at a certain level

Ambassadors and other very high level diplomats are personally inviolable, but lower-level staff are generally only immunized for actions that take place as part of their official duties. (eg, as a dependent of a low-level diplomat, I have zero immunity, and my wife has next-to-zero immunity). Generally our car doesn't get searched when we go into a parking garage because we have consular plates, but that's a courtesy, and the police can search our private car pursuant to India's (nearly nonexistent) legal procedures. If we were in a consulate-owned car on official business things would be different, and if we were carrying a Pouch things would be very very different. But the Indian police can search my own apartment or car just like any other.

[Xipe Totec]

148. Now, India has appointed her to its permanent mission at the United Nations and

Khobragade's attorney Daniel Arshack said that, in her new role, she would have diplomatic immunity from prosecution retroactively.

[Recursion]

172. That's an interesting twist

But that accreditation must be confirmed by Obama to be legally valid...

[Recursion]

12. That's not how immunity works

Consuls and diplomats are immune from prosecution for their official actions; they can be arrested just like anybody else for what they do off the clock.

Honestly, I'm surprised they only charged this as visa fraud and not full-on TIP.

[Xipe Totec]

147. That is exactly how it works. The State Dept is in full apology mode

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/18/us-usa-india-idUSBRE9BH0DD20131218

[Recursion]

173. "Expressing regret" is actually specifically not an apology

And more of a "life is hard, dude".

[bettyellen]

3. "The treatment and pay of household staff, meanwhile, is largely seen as a family issue, off-limits

....to the law. "

That is scary. If the servants get searched, or worse- does anyone cares?

[Recursion]

15. People are furious here

There was a demonstration in front of the consulate today (Mumbai still has police barriers, at least).

The question I keep seeing over and over is "why don't you pay your local consular staff the US minimum wage? Isn't that hypocritical?" which literally makes no sense to me (we follow the labor laws of the host country, and expect others to also -- in particular, we grant paid maternity leave to local staff as required by Indian law, and local staff have strong protections from layoffs because of Indian law; we could probably save a lot of money in the long run by upping their pay to US minimum wage and then laying off three quarters of them...)

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. She essentially imported a slave

I'll save my tears for the actually oppressed. Central booking is not the end of the world.

[Th1onein]

8. We should only be treating violent criminals like that. Period.

I am sick to death of people saying it's A-ok to dehumanize someone simply because of an arrest. Especially in these kinds of cases. Strip search? A little too much.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

10. NYT article has U.S. police denying strip search occurred

I'll wait for the facts to become a bit clearer in the next day or two.

[woo me with science]

11. Thank you.

The authoritarian stench around here is awfully thick.

[msanthrope]

46. Your defense of a human trafficker...who was not strip-searched, btw,

is intriguing.

[woo me with science]

48. Care to explain why you are "intrigued"?

That's a curious word to use. Seems you are trying to imply something but don't want to say it out loud.

I sort of wish you posted something other than serial, predictable, and gratuitously nasty apologism for corporate and authoritarian government. It would be nice to be "intrigued" by one of your posts sometime, instead of weary of the propaganda.

[msanthrope]

96. I find your seeming lack of consideration...though I may be mistaken...

for the victim in this case fascinating.

The victim is not the human trafficker.....who was not "strip-searched"..... a fact you seem to gloss over.

[11 Bravo]

98. Sorry, msanthrope, argument over and you lose (the dreaded "a" word has been unlimbered).

It's funny, as a Little League and youth basketball coach, I was the final authority regarding management of my teams. As an elementary school teacher of almost 40 years, I have always been the authority in my classroom. As a Cub Scout leader I was the authority in our den. And as a parent, my wife and I have always been the final authorities in the raising of our two sons.
HOLY SHIT! I should probably be locked up, if not just summarily executed!

[woo me with science]

105. Do you strip search your Cub Scouts?

I will let that stunning attempt at condescension stand on its own as an illustration of the seriousness of your argument here.

[11 Bravo]

120. What's stunning is your attempt to conflate the appropriate treatment of 7 year old boys ...

with that of an adult criminal suspect. Would I have directed a female officer to strip-search the woman? I don't know, I wasn't there. But tell me, if a friend or relative of yours was taken into custody, and then harmed themselves with a weapon that was secreted upon their person, would you sue? Or if an LEO was harmed by that weapon, is that just tough shit?
It's a complicated issue, and one deserving of a more serious discussion than mere sophomoric bleating about "the stench of authoritarianism".

[woo me with science]

129. *MY* attempt to conflate them?

Oh my WORD. Who brought up Boy Scouts and Little Leaguers, and devoted an entire post to them?

I swear, you can't make this stuff up.

Here's some food for thought: Supporters of authoritarianism rarely approve of the word, "authoritarian." It is standard operating procedure for authoritarians to try to mock, dismiss, ban, or otherwise invalidate the words that most accurately describe what they are doing. It is like when posters here complain that "Third Way" is "namecalling" rather than useful shorthand for a set of policy values and goals that give lip service to certain liberal social issues but join fervently with Republicans on virtually every economic issue that favors corporations over human beings.

When governments are spying on their own populations, militarizing their police forces, criminalizing investigative journalism, persecuting whistleblowers, assaulting peaceful protesters and targeting them for surveillance, misusing "terrorism" statutes, and fighting all the way to the Supreme Court to legalize strip searches for any arrestee, the label of "authoritarian" and discussions of metastasizing authoritarianism are wholly accurate and absolutely necessary.

Flippant, derisive posts about Cub Scout leaders do not contribute to the "serious discussion" you pretend now that you wanted to have about nonviolent and non-convicted arrestees' being subjected to humiliating strip searches in the United States of America.

[msanthrope]

138. I take the side of the household slave.....and I'm the authoritarian.

I don't believe a spoiled diplomat, and I have no sympathy for her whining about being treated like any other common criminal.... and I'm the authoritarian.....

[11 Bravo]

142. You noticed that as well.

There are those who latch on to a term and figure that all they need to do it toss it out there and, PRESTO, they win the argument. Fortunately, that doesn't always work at DU.

[markpkessinger]

155. You take the side of an ALLEGED household slave . . .

. . . Until such time as the woman arrested has been tried and convicted, she is entitled to a presumption of innocence.

[msanthrope]

181. In court, she is entitled to that presumption. Not on DU. nt

[markpkessinger]

182. But what we are talking about . . .

. . . is her treatment at the hands of law enforcement, where she IS entitled to that presumption.

[msanthrope]

184. Actually...her booking procedure has nothing to do with the presumption of innocence.

The cops don't have to think you are innocent.

It has everything to do with equal protection. Did she get treated like everyone else arrested? There's nothing to indicate she wasn't.

Look...do you want to sit, waiting for arraigment with people who have not been searched? Really?

[Historic NY]

204. +1...

[jberryhill]

185. Uh, if law enforcement operated on that basis, nobody would get arrested

[Number23]

174. I don't think it's a defense so much as yet another opportunity for that poster to use the word

'authoritarian'.

I swear if you took away that poster's ability to use the words 'authoritarian', 'propaganda' and "Orwellian," there would only be punctuation marks in every one of their posts.

[msanthrope]

180. You forgot "Stasi!". That's a favorite refrain of those engaging in political

speech in a democracy...on a medium designed to facilitate the free-flow of ideas across borders.

[Vattel]

64. you got that right!

[fujiyama]

169. I'm seeing more of this among so called liberals

And it's amusing that most of the same NSA apologists are just fine with this sort of humiliating behavior as well.

This doesn't mean I agree with the diplomat's father's statements but we're now down a slippery slope where strip searches are fine for anyone arrested and even the concept of diplomatic immunity is under threat. Granted, what does international law matter for an administration that kills people by drones at whim? And Bloomberg himself said the NYPD is his personal army...

But let's all get righteously indignant all of a sudden at the Indians because "they're stealing our jobbbbss!"

[JI7]

18. they most likely are violent criminals in the treatment of their Slaves

[Th1onein]

33. That's avoiding the issue.

We shouldn't be subjecting people to this unless they are violent criminals. It's not only what it does to them, it's also what it does to us.

[uponit7771]

42. no... importing a slave is the issue... yeah... bout it

[TroglodyteScholar]

89. So the question is whether ndentured servitude is violent by its nature

I would argue that depriving any human of protection under the law is an act of violence toward that person. The damage done is far greater than any few hours an entitled aristocrat had to spend in the company of little people.

[sabrina 1]

20. I absolutely agree. This strip searching of people is dehumanizing and intended to be.

I am not surprised at the reaction of other countries to our barbaric 'judicial' system. Unfortunately Americans have become immune to the abuses inherrent in our 'judicial' system, but many other countries are horrified by what we call a system of 'justice'. For one thing, why would she be strip searched when she had not been convicted of anything? Aside from the fact that our prison system is barbaric compared to other civilized nations, I don't understand why she wasn't just charged, held in humane conditions until her bail was posted, and released.

Our prison system is among the worst in the world and yet we have the gall to criticize others.

[Live and Learn]

24. +1 nt

[Jesus Malverde]

25. Keistering

Mark Gregory Valadez, Inmate Smuggled Loaded Gun Into Prison Via His Anus
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/09/04/mark-gregory-valadez-inmate-smuggled-loaded-gun-anus_n_3864866.html

For some people involved in the criminal justice system body cavities are convenient places for contraband.

[sabrina 1]

27. And we have no machines that can detect these things? That's funny, I thought that we had 'naked

scanners' at our airports that can see everything inside and outside a person's body. They were extremely controversial being that they were used on millions of innocent passengers, but it seems to me that here is one good use for them, AFTER someone has been convicted of a crime of course.

It's archaic and demeaning and intended to be so. It should be condemned and abolished and maybe if we spend more money on education and focused on why we have so many violent criminals in this society and worked on changing that, instead of killing innocent, non-violent people overseas, we wouldn't have such a huge prison population.

It is a disgusting, barbaric system and it only perpetuates violence when people are treated like garbage. Land of the Free. What a joke.

[Th1onein]

34. Let's use some common sense here.

They arrested her at her daughter's school. Do you really think she had a gun stuffed up her butt at that point?

[Recursion]

40. NYPD denies there was a strip search

Just saying.

[Th1onein]

53. Sorry, I don't believe anything the cops there say.

[Recursion]

54. But you believe a highly-connected diplomat who illegally got two free flats

off Indian taxpayers' dime?

[Th1onein]

56. I'd believe anyone, other than a cop.

They're notorious liars.

[Recursion]

57. Fair enough

I disagree, but it's a consistent stance I can't argue with.

[uponit7771]

43. ok, if this was some winger from Oklahoma would you be asking that question?

[Downtown Hound]

66. Ever hear of equal treatment under the law?

Every liberal claims to support it, but then they demand special treatment for some.

[Th1onein]

90. No one here is demanding that she be treated differently.

They don't strip search all prisoners. And, what I was saying is that they should strip search ONLY violent criminals. Once you're violent, you've lost the right to be treated equally--for obvious reasons--the protection of those you might hurt.

[Downtown Hound]

116. They strip search A LOT if not most prisoners

the only time you're not likely to get strip searched is if you're in for a minor offense and they know you're going to be released soon. If they think you're going to be spending any actual amount of time in the clink, you're going to get strip searched.

And it's a complete myth that only people arrested for violent offenses would smuggle a weapon into jail. Thugs and murderers get arrested on minor, non-violent offenses too.

What this woman did was not a minor offense and it carries a hefty prison term, so she got strip searched. Big effin' deal. She'll live.

[Th1onein]

135. It certainly wasn't a violent offense, and judging from her position, do you REALLY

think she wouldn't get out very quickly. Come on, let's use logic here.

And it's not a matter of just HER, as so many on this board has said previously. It's the fact that MOST of us should not be strip searched, and certainly not for minor, traffic, or regulatory offenses.

[Downtown Hound]

145. Oh okay, so we're supposed to kiss her ass because of her position?

Classicist much?

I'm on the side of the oppressed worker/slave here. Sorry that you seem to forget who the real victim is.

[Marrah_G]

149. ^this

[hfojvt]

29. probably because of lawyers and insurance companies

since we do not have enough jail cells to give everybody their own cell, that would mean she needs to be kept in a group cell. Well if she is NOT searched thoroughly then she might carry a weapon into that group cell and if somebody gets hurt with that weapon then the state, and/or their insurance company would be liable.

So people have to be treated badly in order to minimize liability.

[leftynyc]

32. With all due respect

She and her fans expect special treatment because of who she is - that's not how it works during an arrest in the US (where nobody was forcing them to be). She got treated just like everyone else and THAT's what they seem to be upset about - if it were a poor Indian, you wouldn't hear a thing about this. While our prison system is certainly worthy of discussion, ruffling the feathers of someone who just may have been keeping a virtual slave is not something I'm going to lose sleep over.

[sabrina 1]

36. I don't care who she is, no one should be treated the way they are treated, NO ONE, by our so-called

judicial system.

And btw, who are her fans? I don't know the woman, I don't know anyone else who is currently accused of a crime either, but other countries seem able to follow the law without the major abuses that take place every day in US prisons.

As Mandela said, 'you can judge a country by its prisons' or words to that effect.

[leftynyc]

38. Her fans would be

every single person who thinks she could get special treatment. Try here:

http://www.aol.com/article/2013/12/18/devyani-khobragade-india-diplomat-says-she-faced-cavity-search/20791125/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmaing6%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D421124

Which includes this little tidbit:

In an email published in India media on Wednesday, Khobragade said she was treated like a common criminal

She's accused of a visa violation (and why she wasn't charged with more is beyond me) so she was treated as everybody else who is accused of a crime is treated. If she lied on the visa application, she is a common criminal.

If you think American prisons even come close to the abuse that takes place in some other countries, you're simply being dishonest.

[sabrina 1]

41. Has she been convicted of a crime? She was ACCUSED. According to my recollection of our

system of justice, no one is guilty until they have been charged, tried and convicted. Our prison system is a disgrace.

As you yourself just said, our system is so bad that the abuses begin the minute someone is accused of a crime.

Neither she nor anyone else no matter what they are accused of, should be treated like a criminal until it is determined that they are a criminal. After which they should serve their sentence during which time they should be treated humanely.

See Guantanamo, not to mention some of our private prisons. This case is getting attention but every day abuses occur in our prisons that get no attention.

It's sad when we have to say 'but we're better than prisons in dictatorships'. The comparison should be to other Democratic nations, not to third world countries run by dictators. Which btw, we have used to send some of our detainees to for torture purposes.

There are countries where time in prison is used to rehabilitate criminals since they will be going back into society eventually. The success of these policies is evident by the recidivism rate. Ours is sky high so clearly a system that is all about 'punishment' is a failure.

[leftynyc]

45. Forget dictatorships

Maybe she should go back to her own country and fight for the rights of prisoners there:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-2294853/Rotting-bars-As-claims-daily-violence-sexual-assault-hell-hole-conditions-dog-Tihar-Jail-MAIL-TODAY-takes-look-life-Indias-toughest-prisons.html

She'll continue to get no sympathy from me.

[sabrina 1]

73. You are totally missing the point. It isn't about HER, or about the well known and disgraceful

abuses in her country. It is about OUR system of justice which we claim is the 'best in the world'. The very fact that you are comparing it to one that is known for its abuses makes the point completely. But even there, they do not have the huge numbers of people incarcerated that we do here. One in every 100 Americans spends time in jail now. We are the number one incarceration capital of the world.

How about comparing it to Norway's eg? That should be our standard. After all it isn't hard to be slightly better than some of the worst countries in the world.

Either we have far more criminals than anyone else in the entire world, or something else is going on. We beat China which has a far larger population than we do eg.

Perhaps turning our prisons into profit making corporations has something to do with keeping them filled. We also incarcerate people for crimes that would not carry jail sentences in most other civilized nations.

No one eg, comes to the US to study our prison system as a model, as they used to do.

As one law professor said, 'people who do study our prison system from other countries, come away horrified'.

[leftynyc]

107. I agree that private prisons are a curse

but don't see why you're making this a bigger thing than it is. Someone who allegedly lied on an application visa and was paying her maid less than half of the minimum wage got caught. You would think that would make people around here happy rather than using it as an excuse for the latest "US sucks" brigade.

[sabrina 1]

127. Let me see if I can explain it more clearly.

It is easy to claim to have the best judicial system in the world, which on paper at least, at one time, this country was justified in doing. It was never perfect, but it was better in theory at least and became somewhat of a model for other democracies to study. Of course OUR system was based on other, some of them, ancient democracies, some of the world's historical great thinkers and humanitarians.

You ask me if this woman's alleged crimes should cause us to throw away all of our principles regarding due process because what she is accused of is so egregious.

My answer is that if we only adhere to the principles we claim to stand for when we are never faced with any challenges to test our commitment to justice, then we have no system of justice.

You seem to be saying, and I may be misunderstanding, that if someone is accused of a terrible crime, we should throw away our principles and due process and treat the accused according to our emotional reaction and our distaste for what they are accused of.

That would mean having no judicial system, no due process at all, since most crimes people are accused of are shocking and despicable.

That is where we are tested as to our claims of being committed to remaining a civil society, to justice, rather than revenge. And it seems we don't stand up to that test far too often lately.

If this woman, or anyone else is accused of a crime, and people have been accused of far worse crimes, mass murders, child molestation etc, she is still entitled under OUR laws thankfully, to due process, to a trial, to evidence being produced to make sure she actually IS guilty before we rush off to lock her up and throw away the key based on emotion.

Perhaps you prefer the way they do it in some countries. Someone is accused of a crime, there is justifiable outrage and the accused is simply dragged off to prison without much chance of defending themselves, or beaten to death, or flogged, hung, stoned, or whatever.

I prefer our way.

But I worry sometimes when people say 'but she abused her maid'! Meaning what? I have not seen any evidence first of all so I can't say yet whether she did or not. But even if there is some credible evidence of such abuse, I am still saying the accused should have a fair trial where the evidence can be tested absent emotions, and if found guilty THEN convict her. But only after the accused has been provided with due process. Many innocent people have been convicted when the evidence SEEMED to incontrovertible. To take such a risk is unacceptable in a decent society.

I know, it's not popular these days to demand we adhere to our own laws rather than rush to judgement. But I will continue to do so because the alternative is so scary a prospect I find it inconceivable. I am perfectly happy to allow our judicial system to do its job.

[leftynyc]

128. You have misrepresented me

100%. I said she allegedly lied on her visa application and was arrested, booked and treated like everyone else. That you want to make this into an issue on our justice system (and pardon me for being glad I'm not living in Iran, Russia, China or even in this woman's home country of India).

Yes, I know you are one of the first to proclaim "but we should be better" when any story comes out about anything and you're not wrong - we should always strive for being the best. Truthfully, I'm sick and tired of the incessant bitching about how awful the US is. The whining has gotten completely out of control and frankly has made me just skim your posts as they're all the same.

My sympathies are with the poor minorities who actually have something to bitch about when it comes to the justice system as it's not fair on any level for them. That this poor excuse for a woman (who is practically screaming "Don't you know who I am" garners your outrage, knock yourself out. I seriously couldn't possibly care less.

[sabrina 1]

130. What an odd post. Do you really think that people who SUPPORT our laws and principles are the ones

'bitching about the US'? Talk about misrepresentation, and total misunderstanding of what caring about your country actually means. It DOESN'T mean waving the flag and yelling USA! USA! when our leaders are misrepresenting us to the world, causing so much hatred for a country WE KNOW is NOT eg, GEORGE BUSH and his policies or Cheney.

Sorry if I am the kind of person who doesn't agree that excusing government wrong doing is showing 'love for our country'. I consider the apologists to be the ones who have zero respect for this country and am sick to death of the excuses being made for the criminals who have abused their power and caused so much disrespect for this country around the world.

You are playing the victim here. YOU don't like my posts? I'm not particularly fond of yours either, but I'm willing to discuss issues, rather than whine that I am 'sick to death' of what other people say. But since you brought it up I AM SICK TO DEATH of people who apologize for every crime committed by our government because it is OUR government. So sick you have no idea.

I would have preferred to address the issues rather get personal, but that was your choice so now you know you are not the ONLY one who is sick to death of other people's posts.

And whether you like it or not, we DO have still, thankfully, a system of justice that is supposed to treat every accused person the same way. No, we don't do that, see Wall St. Criminals eg, and War Criminals, that privileged class that we can't seem to apply justice to. Speaking of privilege. But it is better when it does work, than any other I can think of.

And there it is again, the comparison of the US to 'Iran, Russia, China and India', rather than to Norway, Denmark or any other developed nation. If we have sunk so low that we can only claim we are better than the worst rather than on a par with the best, it explains why we are having this conversation in the first place.

[Vattel]

70. I couldn't agree more.

Strip searching should only be used in extreme cases. Making it as routine as it is is yet another way that our justice system tramples on human rights and degrades human beings. I have a friend who was a cop in Finland and says that the standard there was to approach every suspect as a potential friend. Often they get confessions because they talk about what they can do to help the criminal build a better life for themselves after they pay the penalty for their crime. An entirely different approach there and one that emphasizes basic respect for human dignity.

[Th1onein]

94. Absolutely right.

And, as usual, well said.

[woo me with science]

124. [phone] THIS is the central point

that the serial apologists for the police state steadfastly refuse to address.

Let me bold and repeat part of what you wrote, because it is important. This has to do with our fundamental values and self-concept as a nation. The warping of values and distortion of what we accept as "normal" or "necessary" is a fundamental goal of authoritarian propaganda.

Neither she nor anyone else no matter what they are accused of, should be treated like a criminal until it is determined that they are a criminal. After which they should serve their sentence during which time they should be treated humanely....

....It's sad when we have to say 'but we're better than prisons in dictatorships'. The comparison should be to other Democratic nations, not to third world countries run by dictators.

Corporate propaganda floods us with comparisons of ourselves to North Korea, to Iran, or to Afghanistan, because the authoritarian state they are constructing cannot tolerate public comparison to the countries we SHOULD be comparing ourselves to.

Thank you for that post.

[woo me with science]

49. Very well said, Sabrina. Thank you.

I think it is a case of being marinated in our own propaganda and sickness, and completely losing sight of how other countries manage to have a criminal justice system and still treat people with dignity.

Recall that the Obama administration fought all the way to the Supreme Court to argue IN FAVOR of strip searches for any offense. Our government, both parties, has gone off the rails with regard to these issues.

[sabrina 1]

79. Thank you. I guess when people have been abused over a long period of time, either as individuals

or as a nation, they become accepting of the abuse, unable to envision a better life. I have seen the US population described as similar to 'abused spouses' in their acceptance of the gross abuses inflicted on them, in so many aspects of their lives, abuses most developed countries are horrified by.

Defending such abuses is simply part of the syndrome of people who have become so used to the pattern of abuse, they are almost afraid to change things.

When I was a child I associated strip searching with the Nazis and was horrified by it. When I learned it was customary in our prison system, I was equally horrified.

We should be ashamed, but we would have to an informed population to experience shame. We are so insular here and seem to have no idea of how a decent society can function. Certainly this one isn't functioning very well, we have the highest incarceration rate in the history of the world. Either that means we totally failed as a nation and are producing more criminals than any other nation in the world, or something has gone very wrong with our justice system.

[idwiyo]

85. I agree about arrest procedures. Cavity search is despicable, regardless who it applied to.

[jberryhill]

88. Who is alleging a cavity search?

A "strip search" is not a "cavity search".

[Sarah Ibarruri]

92. What surprises me most of all, is the fact that no one is discussing her subhuman treatment of her

MAID. She treated someone like an animal, but she is whining that she isn't being treated respectfully. Duh.

[Th1onein]

103. The subhuman treatment of her maid is what she was arrested for.

So THAT'S been covered. It's a crime. She committed it. Okay, now, can we discuss the rest of the issues?

[Downtown Hound]

154. The rest of the issues are that she was arrested and was subject to the same treatment that

thousands of others who are arrested are subjected to. Her rights were not violated. Case closed. Move on.

[Th1onein]

161. Case is open, for millions of Americans who are treated like animals over trivial

traffic offenses because of this ruling.

You, my friend, are going to my Ignore list. Just entirely too rude for my tastes. Enjoy your stay there.

[Downtown Hound]

164. Wow, what a sissy you are. LOL.

I'm not even being rude. I'm just debating. Apparently you can't handle that.

[Marrah_G]

109. They just don't give a shit

Americans are no better then Indians when it comes to that. Forget about the untouchables ones being treated as slaves, a wealthy woman was disrespected!!!!!!!!!!

[pnwmom]

26. You don't think keeping a slave is as bad as a mugging?

That would be a violent crime, but to me it would be much less serious than what this woman is accused of.

[uponit7771]

44. +1

[msanthrope]

47. You know...if I drew a Venn based on this thread and the Assange threads,

and I colored one circle blue and marked it "Assange apologists" and I drew another circle, colored it red, and marked it "People willing to believe a human trafficker"....you know what?

I'd have a nearly perfect purple circle.

[Vattel]

74. If she is a human trafficker,

why wasn't she arrested for that?

[msanthrope]

97. That you expect charges and actions to line up with accuracy is touching

optimism about the criminal justice system.

Mr. Bush will never be charged. He's still a criminal.

[Vattel]

102. I just want to know why you think she is a human trafficker.

It seems that if you know she is one, then the police probably do too. And so it would be kind of mysterious why they haven't arrested her for it. The Bush case is not analogous for obvious reasons.

My guess is that you are confusing human trafficking with underpaying an employee who travels with you to a foreign country.

[Downtown Hound]

119. Slavery doesn't have to officially be called slavery for it to be so.

India has a caste system that many outsiders would view as slavery.

[msanthrope]

136. Underpaying an employee? You mean, transporting a human into

into a foreign country and then intimidating them into lying to local officials about the purpose and nature of their work.

Preet Bharara knows precisely what he's doing.

[Vattel]

165. huh? that is human trafficking? you need to look up the definition

[msanthrope]

183. Yes....that is human trafficking. It isn't just the tv-movie-of the week white slavery

prostitute who gets rescued kind of situation that is human trafficking......

It's the near epidemic importation of slave labor by the privileged that you see in NYC and DC.

[Vattel]

199. You are just pretending to know that this was a case of slave labor.

[Ikonoklast]

192. That is *precisely* human trafficking.

The U.N. evens defines what she did as such.

And India now wants her to work at the U.N.

[pnwmom]

141. To bring someone here on false pretenses

and then withhold the payment you promised them in a situation where they don't have other options is a form of slavery, in my opinion.

As pathetic as the promised wage was, she didn't even pay that. And she didn't have the resources to leave or return home -- assuming they weren't holding her passport, which is what commonly happens in cases like this.

"Federal prosecutors say Khobragade told the housekeeper she would be paid 30,000 rupees per month — about $573, or $3.31 per hour. The woman worked for the family from about November 2012 through June 2013, and said she worked far more than 40 hours per week and was paid even less than 30,000 rupees, prosecutors said."

[Vattel]

166. how do you know she couldn't return home?

[pnwmom]

175. Tickets to India are expensive. And, as I said, her employers

were probably holding her passport. That is a common practice in cases like this.

Obviously we won't know until the trial, if there is one.

[Vattel]

196. so you don't know

[pnwmom]

197. I know tickets are expensive and she's been paid a pittance.

Why are you defending these creeps? The employer hasn't said she's lying about her pay.

The employer is outraged at how she was treated by the police.

[Vattel]

198. I just want to know the facts. I am not defending anyone.

[pnwmom]

200. The employer hasn't said the employee is lying about her pay.

The employer is outraged at how she was treated by police.

[Vattel]

203. low pay, even in violation of a contract, does not entail human trafficking

[pnwmom]

205. The details will come out. In the meantime, the charges are warranted.

There is more than enough for probable cause.

[Vattel]

206. Sure, but she is not charged with human trafficking, or kidnapping or any other related offense

[sabrina 1]

99. If I were to read DU in threads like this and the Assange threads and focus only on the minority of

apologists for the abuses of people's rights, the support for convictions without trial and even without charges being filed, I would think I had wandered into the wrong forum.

Thankfully the majority of DUers support Civil Rights, support the minimum requirement, at least charges having been filed, before conviction, so most casual readers hopefully will not simply turn away thinking they are in the wrong place.

My circle would be bright red if I only focused on the minority viewpoints here.

[Downtown Hound]

65. Do you believe inmates should be kept safe from assault while in custody?

Because that's one of the reasons why they do strip searches. People can smuggle all kinds of things in clever ways in their bodies.

[Th1onein]

106. We can be better than that. In Illinois, they are better: (725 ILCS 5/Art. 103 heading)

(c) No person arrested for a traffic, regulatory or misdemeanor offense, except in cases involving weapons or a controlled substance, shall be strip searched unless there is reasonable belief that the individual is concealing a weapon or controlled substance.

[Downtown Hound]

121. And was this woman arrested for a minor traffic offense or misdemeanor? No.

[Th1onein]

134. Read it again and you'll get it:

No person arrested for a traffic, regulatory or misdemeanor offense

[Downtown Hound]

146. Number one, she isn't in Illinois

Number two, this has nothing to do with regulatory offenses.

"A regulatory offence or quasi-criminal offence is a class of crime in which the standard for proving culpability has been lowered so a mens rea (Latin for "guilty mind&quot element is not required. Such offences are used to deter potential offenders from dangerous behaviour rather than to impose punishment for moral wrongdoing."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_offence

Get over it. She got strip searched. Big deal. She deserved it in my opinion. I'm not very sympathetic to modern day slave owners. If only you spent half as much time worrying about the person she violated instead of crying about her lost dignity.

[Th1onein]

159. Bull. And we're NOT going to get over it. It's wrong to do this to any human being

who is not arrested for a violent crime. They do it to take away people's dignity.

[Downtown Hound]

162. Actually, they do it to make the jail more safe.

The idea that somebody arrested on a non-violent offense would never smuggle a weapon into jail is nothing but bullshit fantasy, sorry to say.

I was strip searched after being arrested for a non-violent offense. I can't say I liked it much, but I would prefer it to getting shanked or slashed.

[Vattel]

168. Violations of rights by the government are always rationalized by appeal to safety.

"We can't respect rights cuz someone might get hurt." Have you ever considered that respect for liberty or privacy or dignity might be worth taking a risk now and then?

[Downtown Hound]

186. Certain risks yes.

But jail is a little different than the free world. There's no place to run. So I'm all for making it as safe as possible.

[tazkcmo]

153. How ever one is treated

when being booked then ALL are to be treated in the same manner. I also think strip searches as a standard procedure is barbaric but if a "lower class" person must suffer it so should everyone else.

[JI7]

17. map of where Slaves in the world today are

[Recursion]

19. There are 14 million enslaved persons in India today

I can look out my window and see several of them (the kids begging on the street have are generally enslaved to people who bought them from their parents and take all of the money they get from begging -- never, ever give money to a begging child in India; give them food or water they can eat or drink on the spot).

Household staff are in many families simply "paid" by room and board, and aren't allowed to leave work because they are in notional debt to their employers. And, yeah, it's considered a "family" matter that the police and government have no place getting involved in. It really is a shitty country in a lot of ways...

[okaawhatever]

21. There was a lot of rhetoric in that piece you posted. From what i read in several articles earlier

today, the Vienna convention mostly defines the rules for this. Also, from what I read earlier the consul general in 2011 had a lawsuit filed by his home worker against him over pay. There wasn't much info on that, but that surprised me just because I wouldn't think a domestic worker from India would challenge such a high ranking member of the Indian government in court.

The last paragraph in one of the articles quoted an Indian official as saying there was much more to this than just the pay issue. That's what I want to know. I also want to know how the US found out about it and whether there was pressure from someone to file the charges. None of it makes sense, her arrest did very little for anyone politically so it's not like anyone here is gaining politically from it. It's one of those things that's necessary but unpopular. I think there's an underlying issue and I'm not sure if the larger issue is here or in India. A competing political party may have set this up to make her and her political party look bad, or to gin up anti-American emotions.

It's tough when something that is standard procedure in one country is the end of the world in another. The process for booking someone for a crime is the same no matter who they are. The press would love to report a story of how she was given special treatment by not having to go through what others go through for the same thing. Also, the reason I doubt the strip search is that people are usually held in a booking area until it's determined they can't or won't make bail. It is only then that they are entered into the jail area where inmates are held. For someone to be sent to that area they go through quite a bit including changing clothes, often taking a shower, some jails routinely test for HIV and other communicable diseases, etc. It is only to go into that portion that one is strip searched. I volunteer at a jail occasionally and I don't have to go through the whole routine but I am searched, not strip searched, but searched. Also, strip searches don't necessarily include cavity searches so the image being conjured up may not be what happens.

[Recursion]

23. Yeah, there's a lot of weird stuff around this case: eg, the husband is testifying against her

and something about the maid was trying to blackmail her.



We'll see how this ends up.

[malaise]

6. Lying on a visa application is a serious matter

in this post-9/11 era.
She should have known that.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

9. First, let's get all the facts

Second, high ranking Indian officials can just deal with reality and go through searches like everyone else. The modern world needs to force you to rid yourselves of your caste system.

Regarding this particular case? Another wealthy person in power who thinks they are above the law finds out: NOPE!

I have a hard time believing she was strip searched, but we'll see what facts come out.

[JI7]

13. yeah, only poor people who live in Slums should be treated that way

[JI7]

14. she probably thinks only the person she was trying to bring in should be treated that way

[JI7]

22. Diplomat in visa row owns flat in scam-tainted Adarsh Society

some people think rules for other people do not apply to them.


<But this is not the first time Devyani has found herself under the scanner.

She has been in the dock earlier for owning a flat in the controversial Adarsh Society, which has been accused of violating every rule in the book, in Mumbai’s upmarket Colaba locality. The housing project was originally meant to accommodate Kargil war hero families but was illegally allotted to top bureaucrats, defence officers and politicians after converting it from a six-storey building to a 31-storey one.

She and her father Uttam Khobragade, a former IAS officer, were pulled up for not disclosing the fact that Devyani already owned a flat on government’s quota before booking a flat in Adarsh Society.

In fact, both father and daughter have claimed that they were not legally bound to inform the court that Devyani owned another flat in Meera Cooperative Society in Oshiwara, in a posh suburb in north-west Mumbai.

She had acquired the flat in Oshiwara under the state government’s quota for civil servants.

As per the rules of the Maharashtra government, an official applying for a flat under a government quota has to give a signed affidavit stating that they do not own any other flat.>

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/diplomat-in-visa-row-owns-flat-in-scam-tainted-adarsh-society/20131213.htm

[Recursion]

28. Ah, crap. That's definitely going to hurt the Congress party next year

Modi is probably salivating right now...

[JI7]

30. but modi and the rest of the right are supporting her and attacking

the US for what happened to her.

[Recursion]

31. Modi never misses a chance to pander

But this apartment deal is exactly the sort of corruption that Modi is running against.

[Blue_Tires]

35. I like how India seems more outraged over "an educated, middle-class woman" getting this treatment

which they view as "normally reserved for the poor..."

[leftynyc]

39. That's what gets me also

She complains about being treated as a "common criminal" which is she did like on the visa application is all she is. Is anybody forcing her to be here? Perhaps she can go back to her home country and complain about the prison conditions there:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-2294853/Rotting-bars-As-claims-daily-violence-sexual-assault-hell-hole-conditions-dog-Tihar-Jail-MAIL-TODAY-takes-look-life-Indias-toughest-prisons.html


http://www.pucl.org/from-archives/81nov/jails.htm


http://www.panthic.org/articles/5394

[kelliekat44]

61. WE HAVE A WINNER!!! nt

[Marrah_G]

77. What they don't care about is the servant she was trying to bring here.

[Ken Burch]

87. And they damn well should!

In London, they've been busting people like this woman for KEEPING SLAVES-in 2000 fucking 13, for Vishnu's sake!

[Starry Messenger]

143. I know right?

Talk about knowing your place.

[FatBuddy]

37. well, this here's Uhhhhmerica

we don't believe in dignity, we believe in punishment and death.

she's lucky she didn't get slammed into some concrete while in police custody.

[MineralMan]

50. This line stood out for me:

"The treatment and pay of household staff, meanwhile, is largely seen as a family issue, off-limits to the law."

While that may be true in India, it is not true here, and this is where she is. Lying on visa forms and importing what amounts to slave labor is a serious crime in the United States. When you are in this country, our laws and customs apply, not those of your home country. The same applies to us when we travel abroad.

Since this account is from Indian sources, I will wait until I see some other reporting before accepting it as entirely true.

[elehhhhna]

157. the description of the woman says it all.

It's not about a woman, it's about a woman who is higher caste. The rest of the women, meh.

[Downtown Hound]

51. India can blow their outrage out their ass

I haven't heard a single word of concern for this slave that this woman illegally imported. But given that India has a caste system that makes the income inequality in the U.S. look mild, I can't say I'm surprised. I love this line:

"Indian officials said she was arrested and handcuffed Thursday as she dropped off her daughter at school, and was kept in a cell with drug addicts before posting $250,000 bail."

Um yeah, it's called jail. That's what happens when you get arrested. It's happened to me before and I survived. So will she. What a bunch of spoiled, overly-entitled whiners.

[intaglio]

52. And what part of a visa violation charge warrants a strip search?

Anybody? anybody? Beuhler ...?

[Jesus Malverde]

55. It's been litigated in the courts and found to be lawful to strip search all arrestee's

It doesn't matter that you were just smoking a joint, if your getting booked, they will search you completely.

[intaglio]

60. Legal is one thing

being warranted or justified is another.

[lumberjack_jeff]

69. So the fact that she's an educated middle class woman renders it unjust?

Illicitly importing slaves should be frowned upon.

[intaglio]

84. The fact she is a human being renders it unjust n/t

[Downtown Hound]

118. So you htink she should be mollycoddled and treated differently

than all the other human beings in there?

[intaglio]

125. Perhaps not all the prisoners are treated like that

and - quel Horreur! - those that are treated that way should not be so treated.

You may find that shocking, if so I am so sorry.

[Downtown Hound]

151. Well, as somebody who's been to jail twice for non-violent civil disobedience

and strip searched once, I can tell you that I'd rather have gone through that humiliation and know that I'm at least a little more safe when they stick me in a cell with all those "drug addicts" than preserving my dignity and end up getting stabbed.

Let's just say, for arguments sake, that she smuggled a weapon into jail and ending up hurting or killing somebody with it. What would you say then when it was discovered that the reason they didn't strip search her was because she was educated and middle class? You would probably accuse the police of pandering to the rich and wondering why they get special treatment.

The strip search is a degrading and humiliating thing, I know first hand. But it's done for everybody's safety. And ultimately, I care more about my safety than my dignity. I'm already in jail, so dignity has already kind of gone out the window the minute they placed me in cuffs.

[intaglio]

177. Drug addicts, stabbing - Hollywood and TV really has conditioned you

The joys of the holding cell

Firstly, drug addicts do not carry round non-metallic shanks as part of their everyday kit; yes, they are made when inside permanently but not as street wear, so a simple metal detector search is enough. Non-metallic knives are easily made in prison and so you do not carry them with you. And if a drug addict wants to kill you smashing your head against the cell wall 5 or 6 times is usually plenty.

Secondly most do not carry guns and knives stuck into body cavities. Not only is it dangerous, uncomfortable and really difficult when you want to take a crap, it also stops you carrying those essentials of life (for a prisoner) of drugs and cell phones. Not only that but mostly if a gun or a knife is really, really needed on the street and if it is stuck in your ass or vagina it makes getting at it really, really difficult to get at them. Putting such items into your body in a rush whilst being arrested is a bit difficult as well. and, as noted before, they're going to be metallic

Thirdly, get caught with a gun or a knife and you have just aggravated the offense you were arrested for.

[Downtown Hound]

187. Hmmm....actually, reality has conditioned me.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2410551/Man-gets-booked-Oklahoma-jail-loaded-Derringer-pistol-hidden-rectum.html

I've also seen a video where a man blew his brains out with a gun he smuggled into jail. So no, it's not just Hollywood and TV where these things happen, and to pretend otherwise is extremely naive.

[Downtown Hound]

58. Strip searches are quite common for many arrests

Even non-violent ones. Everybody is always opposed to them until someone sneaks a knife into jail in their butt and kills somebody. I don't see why this woman is entitled to special treatment. If you want to make them illegal, then make them illegal for everybody. But the idea that somebody is entitled to special treatment simply because they're of a "higher class" is classicism at its worst.

[intaglio]

62. I refer you to post 60 n/t

[Downtown Hound]

71. And I refer you to the fact that if you truly believe in equality under the law

Then you wouldn't be demanding special privileges for somebody just because they're middle class and educated.

[intaglio]

75. I actually believe that the privileges granted to rich white people should be extended as far

as the poor and the indigent. In my book that is called egalitarianism.

What justified the search - come on tell me from your vast store of criminal and legal knowledge there must be some reason.

Would your judgment change if she is found innocent of the crime? If she is doesn't that mean that part of the punishment preceded the court case? If you want to allow that why not just shut her in Guantanamo without trial for 12 years?

If you search you can find a text that has the words "with equal justice for all," it is not "with equal pre-trial punishment for all,"

[Downtown Hound]

156. If she was found innocent of the crime

Then she can sue for damages, and rightly so.

No matter how you try and spin it, the strip search isn't done for punishment. It's done for safety. People in jail are forced to wear humiliating clothing such as orange jumpsuits or black and white stripes, be shackled in chains while going to court, and a whole host of other indignities when they have yet to be convicted. If somebody is wrongfully put through this experience then they are entitled to an apology and monetary compensation.

You will find no greater advocate of prison reform than me. But I also recognize that the need for security in a jail is important and just as vital to the civil rights of the inmates as their dignity is. People have a right to expect to be safe while incarcerated, and we can't really do that unless we make sure that outside weapons don't find their way in there, now can we?

Tell me, in all of your obviously vast knowledge of how to run a jail, what is you solution to preventing violence and controlling the spread of weapons among inmates?

[intaglio]

160. So innocent until proven guilty does not enter the equation

As to your final question - ask the Swedes

[Downtown Hound]

163. So by that rationale, an unsentenced inmate should never be

dressed in a jail uniform or shackled or restrained in any way? Because, you know, those things are humiliating, and according to you, if you haven't been convicted of anything, then you shouldn't be humiliated in any way.

[intaglio]

176. Restricted, possibly, if there is a danger of flight or intimidation of witnesses.

but all the other humiliations? No, what purpose does it serve except as part of a predetermined punishment for being arrested?

Under your system people are not innocent until proven guilty they; are just innocent until the cops arrest them and then they are guilty until proven innocent.

[Downtown Hound]

188. To pretend that you can predict who is going to be a flight risk or who is going to act out

is the privilege of those who not there in person.


And no, I'm still in favor of everybody getting a fair trial. But I'm also in favor of making sure they live to see that trial.

[Vattel]

91. Yeah, Indian diplomats who kill people with knives stuck up their butt

is a real threat.

[Downtown Hound]

158. I must have missed the law where it says strip searches don't apply to Indian diplomats

Because, you know, they're more special than everybody else. The law is meant to be applied equally. Sorry if you have a problem with that.

Would you rather have a system that openly plays favorites? I say openly because, yes, I'm fully aware that our system plays favorites. What ironic is that this one time where it doesn't seems to get people like you riled up. I mean, a privileged person had to go through the same thing that poor people do! Oh, the horror!

[Vattel]

167. I object to anyone being subjected to a strip search

unless there is reasonable suspicion that they have drugs or a weapon on their persons. Obviously I don't give a rats' ass whether the person subjected to a strip search without cause is poor or rich, but you get all riled up because you just blindly assume that I only care about privileged people.

[Downtown Hound]

191. Do you think everybody who could smuggle a weapon into jail advertises it on their forehead?

The point is, YOU CAN'T TELL. You can guess, but at the end of the day, it's only a guess.

Oh, and, actually, I'm not riled up. If anybody's getting riled up here it's all of you who are incensed that a woman who did what could be considered human trafficking got treated like a common criminal and wasn't treated with kid gloves because she's somebody special. Personally, I think your outrage could be better spent on many more deserving victims of injustice. Like say, her worker/slave, for example.

[Vattel]

195. sure, strip search everyone, doing clear harm, because just maybe . . .

[SoCalNative]

59. Have you even been arrested and taken to jail before?

strip searches, or at the very least pat downs and groping searches, are the norm for ALL.

[intaglio]

63. Nope, and anyway what warranted (justified) this search? n/t

Was it because she was a Brown criminal?

[Downtown Hound]

67. No, it was because she submitted false documents to obtain a work visa

and then underpaid her employee. Which is a crime. And she got caught. She didn't experience anything that thousands of others don't every day. So boo fucking hoo for her.

[intaglio]

72. So what were they searching for? A pen?

Perhaps a dangerous paper clip? A highlighter loaded with poisonous chemicals?

What made a strip search a necessity in this situation? Her big muscles? Her gang tattoos? The scars on her knuckles from the beatings she hands out? The needle tracks on her arms, perhaps?

Punishment should not precede trial - or does that only apply to white US nationals?

[Marrah_G]

80. They search everyone to try and keep drugs and anything that can be used as a weapon out of the jail

[Vattel]

93. Seriously, for fear of concealed drugs we need strip searches for all arrestees held in jail?

And wouldn't a metal detector pretty much handle the weapons problem?

[Marrah_G]

108. Not all weapons are metal

And drugs getting into the system causes a lot of problems.

If a poor woman was arrested and charged with prostitution and possession and was strip searched before entering gen-pop, not many here would bat an eye-lash. But an educated, wealthy woman charged with trying to fake documents to get her servant/slave into the country? Well now THAT, we can't stand for.

She behaves in a despicable way, practicing thinly veiled slavery and the thing that upsets people is that she was strip searched. They sure as hell are NOT concerned about the person she was bringing her to work for slave wages.

There are A LOT of things to be pissed off about in regards to law enforcement and the justice system, but I can seem to conjure up a tear for this person.

[Vattel]

113. sorry, but strip searches without reasonable suspicion are disgusting.

Of course some weapons are not metal, but why should our right not to be subjected to degrading treatment be tossed away for the sake of slight gains in security?

[Downtown Hound]

117. Tell that to somebody who was in jail for a minor offense that ended up getting shanked

because authorities didn't want to violate a certain arrestee's dignity.

[fujiyama]

170. We all live with risk

And I'd rather retain my dignity and not give law enforcement the authority to strip search anyone at whim for any and all crimes "to protect us. Besides, I don't believe in housing violent and non violent offenders together, but in our "lock 'em up" society, that's just how we do it.

But then again, it's all cool because the SC said so. Fat Tony and the other thugs said people can be strip searched for anything now.

[Downtown Hound]

189. Hey, I'm opposed to the drug war and locking people up for most non-violent offenses

That's a separate issue from how a jail should be run.

Yeah, I have no doubt you'd rather keep your dignity...until you're staring down somebody pointing a knife at you. Most people change their tune pretty quick when something like that happens.

[intaglio]

179. Check my post #177 link below

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024191345#post177

[Downtown Hound]

190. Do you realize that you are saying that certain treatment should only be applied to those who look

Last edited Thu Dec 19, 2013, 03:50 PM - Edit history (1)

and act a certain way? The funny thing about you is you think you're so enlightened, and yet all you're really advocating is another form of classicism and racial profiling.

[jberryhill]

82. It's an "administrative search", not one based on cause

First, it's not a cavity search.

Anyone taken into custody in that federal facility is checked for anything they might have on them.

The alternative is some sort of "selective" basis, which would be assailable on a number of grounds, as well as potential liability if someone got in with a dangerous article.

[Vattel]

101. I don't know the practices of that facility, but

some courts have held that in order for a strip search to be performed one must have cause, specifically, reasonable suspicion that the person might be concealing contraband or a weapon. I agree with that standard.

[jberryhill]

104. You'll have to provide a cite for that

Yes, if we were talking about a strip search that wasn't incident to admission to an incarceration facility. There does indeed need to be probable cause for you to be brought in *for* a strip search.

If you are being booked and jailed for an offense for which you have already been arrested, you are off the map of being detained for investigation of a crime and being searched in furtherance of that investigation.

I don't think you are going to find any cases that suggest you can't be searched upon admission to an incarceration facility after you've already been arrested.

The leading case is Florence v. Board of Chosen Freeholders, 2012.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_v._Board_of_Chosen_Freeholders

In a 5–4 decision written by Justice Anthony Kennedy, the Court held that officials may strip-search individuals who have been arrested for any crime before admitting the individuals to jail, even if there is no reason to suspect that the individual is carrying contraband.

What case are you asserting here?

[Vattel]

111. My mistake. I was confusing strip searches and cavity searches.

Thanks to Kennedy and the four right wing assholes on the court, strip searches without reasonable suspicion have been ruled constitutional. God help us. At least Kagan, Ginsburg, Breyer, and Sotomayor dissented.

[jberryhill]

112. Yup

Not saying I agree with it, but it's the law.

That said, a friend of mine was once booked for a minor violation, and at least had confidence that nobody else in there got in with a weapon, for the couple of hours he was there before being sprung.

[Marrah_G]

78. Anyone being booked into jail is searched.

[intaglio]

86. Strip searched?

Strip searched if they are a wealthy white male with a lawyer present?

[jberryhill]

110. Yes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_v._Board_of_Chosen_Freeholders

[fujiyama]

171. One of the worst decided cases of this SC

and one of the least well known.

But I'm sure no one would care because no one gives a fuck about the fourth amendment anyways. We're a nation of sheep.

[intaglio]

178. Interesting assertion in light of the following post

by Downtown Hound http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024191345#post151

which cites actual experience.

[Niceguy1]

126. the police should have handled the situation more delicately

due to the diplomatic relations issues that may have caused

[Dawson Leery]

68. India is being honest about their anti-working class bias.

"That reaction may look outsized in the United States, but the case touches on a string of issues that strike deeply in India, where the fear of public humiliation resonates strongly and heavy-handed treatment by the police is normally reserved for the poor. For an educated, middle-class woman to face public arrest and a strip search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes."

[Marrah_G]

76. Class bullshit

They may allow rich people in India to have people working for them for nothing or almost nothing, but here it is against the law. She can cry me a fucking river. She wants to live here and have servants she can damn well pay them what our laws demands.

[Ken Burch]

81. ...but for a less-educated lower-class woman, it's just part of the deal?...

For female proles, IT'S JUST THEIR STATION IN LIFE?

[Deep13]

95. So home servants in India have no legal protection.

Why is that not surprising? Oh yeah, because they never do.

[KurtNYC]

100. But "For an educated middle-class woman to" keep a slave is completely imaginable, apparently.

[yurbud]

114. change that headline to "WEALTHY" and it would apply to the US

[Ikonoklast]

193. Bernie Madoff was not only strip-searched when booked, but cavity searched upon incarceration.

[yurbud]

194. Bernie Madoff made a tragic mistake--he robbed the rich instead of the rest of us

if only he had targeted public workers retirement funds, all would have been forgiven--or not even considered a crime in the first place.

[winter is coming]

115. So it's okay to treat the ill-educated poor that way? n/t

[closeupready]

122. This story is still not worth waking up from my nappy-nap, sorry.

[closeupready]

123. She is Deputy Counsul General for Women's Affairs (among other titles)!

How is that for irony.

[JI7]

131. well, it would explain why things are tough for women in the country

this person's father was part of the govt so most likely she got the job because of family connections.

[closeupready]

132. I think she also is titular chair of some committe on exploited workers.

These are the types of stories one can not write up as works of fiction - they have to actually happen in real life in order for people to believe they could possibly be true.

[JI7]

133. she is a piece of shit and worse than drug addicts who she is so offended to be put with

they should be offended to be put in the same group with her. she committed a crime against another human being. drug addicts harm themselves .

she is worse, she is a piece of shit just like her piece of shit dad.

seeing india's fake outrage over this, it's no wonder they have such problems they are more outraged that someone who is well to do is not allowed to have slaves and treated as a criminal for it than they are over rape and other violent crimes against women that happen all the time in india.

[msanthrope]

137. Well said. But I guess you, like me, have an authoritarian stench (I was

accused of that upthread.)

[Starry Messenger]

144. +1

[Egalitarian Thug]

139. I find this comically ironic.

The clash between two repressive, religiously deluded, abusive hierarchical power systems where neither can claim any high ground because both require a wretched subclass to exist. Watching them wallow with each other in the cesspool they created is just so nearly perfect...

[Sognefjord]

140. Hear! Hear!

[Starry Messenger]

150. Too fucking bad. We decided the slavery question in this country a long time ago.

[Trillo]

202. Totally agree. Getting stripped by the cops is completely humiliating.

There are very good reasons some people have gymnophobia.