2013 Remarkable Men - such as Ed Snowden, G. Greenwald, and let's not forget the founder Thomas

[quinnox]

Jefferson, who helped make it all possible, and was immortalized by writing these lines - "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness."

These words have the ring of a kind of mystical truth to them. They deserve to be immortalized.

America can be a great country once again! I believe that.

[ProSense]

1. Wait

"2013 Remarkable Men - such as Ed Snowden, G. Greenwald, and let's not forget the founder Thomas Jefferson"

...you're equating Snowden and Greenwald to Thomas Jefferson?

[monmouth3]

2. I think egg-nog is involved here...n/t

[quinnox]

3. no comment, except

I'm recognizing 2013 Remarkable Men, and also reminded of the remarkable men who created America and made this country possible. It is what it is.

[last1standing]

4. Save the faux outrage.

The OP named people he considers remarkable. It's not a contest.

I agree with him that all three are indeed remarkable in their own ways.

[ProSense]

6. What?

"Save the faux outrage.

The OP named people he considers remarkable. It's not a contest."

An observation isn't "faux outrage."

I think this is "remarkable": http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024223859#post10

...in a WTF sort of way.

[NuclearDem]

9. He's so completely unremarkable

You had nearly a new OP every day during the summer talking about him.

[ProSense]

12. LOL!

"He's so completely unremarkable"

You think the being the subject of an OP makes one "remarkable"?

Do you think Rand Paul is remarkable? Boehner.

Snowden fans are a trip.

[NuclearDem]

17. Remarkable doesn't always necessarily mean good.

Worthy of being remarked or noticed.

But hey, you managed to get Rand Paul in a post. Keep going, got ROFL smiley, that, and the free space.

[last1standing]

10. "Blah, blah,... I hate anyone Obama hates, blah, blah..."

Or should that be "bleat, bleat, bleat..?"

[ProSense]

14. WTF?

[Aerows]

18. Goodness gracious, ProSense

are you going to sit here on Christmas Eve and claim you *DON'T* dislike anyone that says anything against the Obama Administration? It's okay, you don't *have* to admit it, but you have been very strident in your lack of affection for Snowden and Greenwald, and it isn't because they are both white men. The only thing they have in common is that they criticized a program being run under the, yes, I'll say it, Obama Administration.

Let me again put out a talking point fire before it starts - I hated this surveillance state bs under Bush. That does not mean I'm not allowed to dislike it under Obama, in fact, it says I stand on principle, not party or personality.

[ProSense]

19. Oh my

[Aerows]

20. I know

It's okay if you have no affiliation to principle or party and cleave only to personality. You don't care for Democratic Senators that criticize Obama, either, like Udall.

[ProSense]

21. LOL!

"It's okay if you have no affiliation to principle or party and cleave only to personality. You don't care for Democratic Senators that criticize Obama, either, like Udall. "

Too funny! Got any more?

[Aerows]

22. Just pointing out facts, ma'am.

You don't like anyone that criticizes Obama, no matter how good in faith and how relevant those criticisms may be.

[ProSense]

25. Actually, I think

"Just pointing out facts, ma'am. You don't like anyone that criticizes Obama, no matter how good in faith and how relevant those criticisms may be."

...you're engaging in a bit of personal fantasy. It's OK. It apparently makes you feel better.

[Aerows]

27. I'm feeling pretty good

Thank you for asking

[ProSense]

29. Wait,

"I'm feeling pretty good"

...me too. Humor helps: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024223859#post17

[Aerows]

33. You linked to your own post?

[ProSense]

35. Yes,

"You linked to your own post?"

... I did. Don't ever let anyone tell you you're not astute.

[NuclearDem]

43. Link to own post!

I only need Oathkeepers, Libertarian, racism, or a speech.

[ProSense]

47. "Link to own post!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024202440#post20

You're welcome.

[Aerows]

50. Well that convinced me

Not.

[last1standing]

60. LOL! When obviously wrong, post a ROFL smilie!

Do I hear the bleating of sheep nearby?

"Baaaaaa! Baaaaaaa!"

[bvar22]

70. Does anybody believe people who use :rofl: are really laughing?

The first one to post cartoons as a rebuttal is essentially admitting that they can no longer defend their position in an intelligent manner, and are desperately hoping that no one at DU is smart enough to see through their clever deception.

[Aerows]

74. I think a lot of us

are being baited in this thread to lose our cool so we can get a hide. Stay strong, stay civil, stay honest.

[VanillaRhapsody]

23. disgusting isn't it? Turns my stomach

and what is this "once" great nation....

What the hell has happened to this great forum Democratic Underground, that this talk is even tolerated is the better question in my book.

[Aerows]

26. If you mean

"How dare anyone question the government because Obama is in office", then yes, people are going to question bad ideas. It doesn't matter if Santa Claus is president. The NSA would be widely criticized no matter who was in charge, because they are doing something that is illegal AND feel the need to lie about it.

[VanillaRhapsody]

28. No that is not what I said is it?

stop putting words into peoples mouths...that would improve this "once great" country!

I questioned the statement made on a "Democratic" Forum! Are we supposed to hate the "Democratic" President (Black White or any color) on Democratic Underground...

but of course the irony is lost on you...

[Aerows]

31. You said that it turned your stomach

that people were questioning the state of the "country". Or did I get that wrong?

[VanillaRhapsody]

36. Yes it does turn my stomach to hear "this once great country"

that disgusts me!

Particularly on a forum that supposedly "supports" Democrats! It's starting to look like Yahoo comments.

[Aerows]

38. The best way to support Democrats

is to express exactly what we expect from the Democratic party. That makes for a strong, cohesive party. It is unfortunate that you don't feel that way.

[VanillaRhapsody]

51. as I said...plenty of places to criticize Obama on the internet

you could try Duck Dynasty's website...I am sure they would appreciate that kind of criticism.

How is calling the twice elected by the MAJORITY a tyrant and calling this country "once great"...going to bring party cohesion? Seriously?

Not to mention comparing Lord Edward Snowden to Thomas Jefferson....(who didn't run like a coward...but WAS risking everything including his life).

THAT makes me sick.

[Aerows]

54. I'm a member of DU

I'm here to discuss politics and the Democratic Party. I'll discuss politics here to my heart's content, and if you don't care for my opinions, ignore is your friend.

Merry Christmas!

[VanillaRhapsody]

55. the site is about SUPPORTING Democrats....

and I sure haven't seen much of THAT on DU lately!

I HAVE seen alot of hate though...

namely Tyranny and "Once great" just as the latest examples.

[Aerows]

57. Well aren't you a wonderful DUer

schooling everyone and whatnot on how supportive they are or are not of Democratic politicians.

I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter so that I can learn to become as much of a Democrat as you are.

[VanillaRhapsody]

59. Yes I am!....You should subscribe to my newsletter....

it would make you a better Democrat too.

[treestar]

64. This view always astounds me

We are not outside the party expecting anything of it. We are part of it.

[Aerows]

69. Then why do some

do their darnedest to ostracize people that have a disagreement with a particular politician on a particular issue? I disagree with the Obama Administration on a couple of things - namely those involving the Patriot Act. I whole-heartedly agree with the Obama Administration on other things, such as equality, gay marriage and lessening our dependence on fossil fuels.

I don't have to support someone on every single thing to support them. I am part of the Democratic party, and it is upsetting when someone tells me I'm not because I don't support everything to the letter that Obama does. I'm not on the outside looking in, I'm on the inside, and I'm pointing out things that need improvement.

I hope you agree. Telling someone to basically fuck off and go to a Duck Dynasty website when they are as much of a Democrat as anyone here is wrong-headed. Why should I? I voted for Obama twice.

[VanillaRhapsody]

83. No no no no no....you got THAT all backwards..

otherwise...why is having the BOG necessary?

And besides this criticism is not just about YOU...get it? Look beyond yourself...Look at the big picture around here on DU.....look at this very thread for example...

"Tyranny" and "Once great country"



and that's just this one thread!!!!

That's not only tolerated...it happens all the time...and hordes pat those saying it on their backs...day in and day out!

[Aerows]

86. Oh, I see

Now we all need to see beyond ourselves once a handful of folks got called on their aggressive posting behavior.

Maybe you can complain some more that many DU posters support Elizabeth Warren. That is bound to win hearts and minds. Then you can tell the people that disagree with you to post somewhere else. That is an idea that will always be a winner.

I hope your playbook is just missing some pages and you really don't think those are great strategies.

[VanillaRhapsody]

88. NOOOOOO....that is not what I just said is it?

you changing my words doesn't change the facts....

[Aerows]

90. Um, yeah

it is. And I pointed that out. Feel free to edit your post, though, since we have DU3 everyone can see the edit

[VanillaRhapsody]

91. by the way...I said "more than JUST her"

not once did you see me complain ABOUT support for Warren...

So you can start by pointing out just that ONE thing you changed about what I said...so none of what you say after holds any credence.

[Aerows]

92. I don't need to change what you said

You are the one that said it, right there for everyone to see. I don't have the power to edit your posts, only you can do that.

[VanillaRhapsody]

94. You didn't need to....but you did!

[Aerows]

98. Oh my

I rewrote your post, did I?

[VanillaRhapsody]

100. Yup!

and fabricated it out of whole cloth to boot.

[VanillaRhapsody]

96. please quote where I complained about support FOR Elizabeth Warren...vs what I really said..

which was about support for ONLY Warren.

You bald faced lied.

[Aerows]

102. To be completely honest

I think maybe you should take a bit of a break and relax. You seem like a nice person, and I honestly wanted to dialogue with you, but I think this conversation is getting to be a bit much.

I hope that you have a very Merry Christmas, you and yours are well, safe and sound, and that you get all you hoped and dreamed of this coming year.

Yes, I'm retreating. I don't need this much conflict with a person on the internet on what should be the happiest night of the year. I'll tie up with you later, okay?

[VanillaRhapsody]

103. Phase 2 in the operation...."Bring up that you think the poster needs rest as they are upset"

More of that now?

Yeah I am on to it...

Not fooled for a moment!

NEXT

[Aerows]

104. Merry Christmas, cher

I mean that sincerely. I'm not going to argue with you further. I hope you are blessed this season .

[VanillaRhapsody]

105. Right...exactly as I thought

patterns are my thing...Believe me...I notice them. Its part of my training for my profession.

[VanillaRhapsody]

107. Besides that wasn't an argument...that was just an exercise to see if you could "rile me up"

enough to give ammunition to alert on.

But I got to practice on YOU!

[Hissyspit]

81. "What the hell has happened to this great forum Democratic Underground, that this talk is even toler

ated is the better question in my book."

You've only been here since 2012?

When I started reading this forum in 2003, there was plenty of talk like this, as it should be.

[VanillaRhapsody]

87. Yes I have..and NO it wasn't! Then....we were governed by Republicans

and this language and talk was about THEM!

[Hissyspit]

97. Um, not exactly.

There was plenty of criticism of Democrats (who were also governing us), as was allowed both then and now.

As far as I am aware, Greenwald, Snowden and Jefferson are/were not Republicans (or Democrats).

[VanillaRhapsody]

101. The level of vitriol for democrats and praise for Libertarians was NEVER like this!

I might remind you on this thread..

"tyranny" and "once great country"

[Hissyspit]

108. People were using terms like that in 2004 here, too.

In 2003, 2004 or 2005, one could certainly find posts with common ground with libertarians, as many of them were against Bush adminstration actions. Greenwald has said he is not a Libertarian (technically, big L means the official party, small L means the ideology). He is more accurately termed a civil libertarian, which is by no means the same thing. I have no idea if Snowden is a Libertarian or libertarian, but it is kind of besides the point, because he is being praised for his actions, not his party membership. Snowden supposedly wrote: “The consent of the governed is not consent if it is not informed.” You are surprised people would praise that here?

Most certainly, Greenwald was much posted and praised here through much of the Bush administration.

People posted about tyranny and a "once great country" all the time during the Shrub years. Are you saying simply because we elected Barack Obama, those concerns are no longer valid? The Supreme Court make-up back then. They are pretty important. (Yes, I remember how bad it was then. Save yourself the trouble of lecturing me about that.)

It's true that DU is different these days, but I don't think it is for the reasons you think it is. Yes, it matters that most were battling an insane Republican administration then, and now many seem to believe, "o.k. a Democrat is President, so we don't have to worry about this stuff anymore," but there is nothing in the OP that seems foreign to the DU of ten years ago.

[VanillaRhapsody]

109. Not about Democrats...sorry.

And no...

"so we don't have to worry about this stuff anymore,"

Is NOT what is being said....but its NOT the only thing there is to worry about for one thing.

Jeebus...look at what Obama has accomplished....Look at how many issues he has even attempted to tackle.....even without taking into consideration the obstruction. It's amazing....I have been on this planet over half a century and I have NEVER seen anything like him. Not Jimmy Carter...and not Bill Clinton. So excuse me if I am sick up to here with hearing things like:

"Tyranny" and "once great country"

while he is still the President...its just too too much around here. For god's sakes...

Let's start with Lily Ledbetter straight out the damn gate!

[sabrina 1]

68. I wouldn't equate him to Jefferson, and I did not get that from the OP. However, he continued the

ideals of the FFs often flawed themselves AND condemned and wanted for treason, by insisting on telling the American people the TRUTH about what their government was up to.

You can't have a Democracy, and I'm sure Jefferson would agree, when the press is owned by Corporations (Jefferson had a lot to say about Corporations too btw) and REAL journalists are silenced even arrested and Trught Tellers, rather the violators of people's rights are the ones to be pursued.

Flawed as some of them were, the FFs had some incredible ideals for how a society should run.

And it didn't include 'secret courts' and 'secret mass warrants AFTER the fact. I believe they might not be surprised at how wrong things have gone. They didn't really have much faith that the greedy and the power seekers could be stopped. But they tried and did a pretty good job of holding them back for over 200 years now.

And I am certain they would approve of Snowden and Manning and Binney and Tice and all the other couragoues Whistle Blowers who insisted on shining a light on the wrong doing of those in power. After all, they did so themselves.

It's easy to tell when someone has done the right thing. All you have to do is look at who is calling them a traitor. You are known sometimes MORE by your enemies than your friends and sunshine is always the best disinfectant for a government that has gone out of control.

Despite the violations of the Constitution, the total disrespect for it, and their view that it is a 'quaint' document, it is still the law of the land and they are hampered still, to some extent by the vision the FFs had. And Snowden and Manning, Tice, Binney and since 2001, so many others.

[last1standing]

5. Agreed, quinnox.

It's only through the service of those willing to stand up against the tyranny of the status quo that America can be great again.

[quinnox]

11. You said it!

[VanillaRhapsody]

24. So we are full on Tyranny now? Is that what you are saying about America...

on Democratic Underground? Under a Democratic President no less...

You guys need to learn to use a dictionary...seriously.

Tyr·an·ny noun \ˈtir-ə-nē\
: cruel and unfair treatment by people with power over others

: a government in which all power belongs to one person : the rule or authority of a tyrant

[Aerows]

30. I didn't stop criticizing government decisions the second

a Democratic politician took office, and I don't think I'll quit criticizing them when there is an (R) in there either. Nor should I. Nor should anyone else be required to agree with what politician A says because of the (D) or (R) after their name.

I'd imagine Obama himself would be the first person to tell you he's not perfect.

[VanillaRhapsody]

32. And I never claimed he was perfect....but I also didnt call him a Tyrant either...

Why do I have to keep reminding you people that THIS is Democratic Underground...with the express purpose of supporting Democrats...

It's not Snowden Underground....though you are welcome to start one!

tyranny
a : a government in which absolute power is vested in a single ruler; especially : one characteristic of an ancient Greek city-state

[Aerows]

37. I'm a Democrat

I have the right, and the responsibility to criticize Democratic politicians that aren't living up to the ideals of our party. Obama will not be president forever. It is up to party members to express our hopes and dreams for the future of the party.

[VanillaRhapsody]

39. Plenty of places on the Internet allow you to rant against President Obama aren't there?

How can you consider yourself Democrat if you don't support the Democratically TWICE elected DEMOCRAT President.

The people spoke...and they chose President Obama....by far...not once but twice...do you know how long its been since ANY President has done that?

[Aerows]

42. Oh, I'm sorry

I guess voting for the man twice isn't showing my support. I guess I'm supposed to stand by and say not a darn thing when the NSA over-reaches just because the politician I voted for is in office. Holy crap. I didn't realize that voting for someone meant that I had to fawn all over them like a Justin Beiber fan club member.

Seriously?

[VanillaRhapsody]

44. meanwhile you support calling him a tyrant and this country "once great"

I don't see you criticizing that! Evidently you support THAT!

[Aerows]

46. I'll repeat

I didn't realize that voting for someone meant that I had to fawn all over them like a Justin Beiber fan club member.

[VanillaRhapsody]

61. I'll repeat.....Being a Democrat means supporting them...

at least some damn time! I haven't seen that on DU much...

Far as I can tell we might as well rename this Elizabeth Warren Underground because it seems that is the ONLY democrat some supposed Democrats support. JUST the one...

[Aerows]

75. I do like Elizabeth Warren quite a bit

and I'm not even going to be shy about that. I like the Governor of Maryland, Martin O'Malley, too. Both are solid Democrats. Why try to shame people into silence of Democratic candidates that they like just because they aren't your particular pick?

It seems like a self-defeating purpose to deride particular politicians when you are complaining that people are deriding ... a politician (Obama). What gives?

[VanillaRhapsody]

76. Maybe some NEED to be shamed...

to act like they do on a Democratic Underground forum..

That's what gives!

[Aerows]

77. People need to be shamed

for liking Elizabeth Warren and Martin O'Malley?

[VanillaRhapsody]

78. No that is not what I said....but do realize that Martin O'malley is not perfect either right?

Jeebus...support of 2 democrats are not going to win us back the house...get my drift?

[Aerows]

79. What is wrong with Martin O'Malley?

and why is he a terrible Democrat, and Elizabeth Warren for that matter? Hell yes we need to get back the House, keep the Senate and increase the number of seats, but yelling at other Democrats that support Democrats isn't going to get the job accomplished.

You pretty much told me not to post here anymore because I had criticisms towards Obama. Telling Democratic party members that vote to essentially "fuck off" and join a Duck Dynasty forum (particularly hilarious since you are telling a gay woman that - PS, that's what that flag means) is counter productive to the mission of getting more Democrats elected. Much more so than critiquing already elected Democrats that can't run for another term (Obama).

[VanillaRhapsody]

80. Well that AIN'T gonna happen if you cannot even get people at a place called

Democratic Underground to stop trashing Democrats and idolizing Libertarians...

THAT'S a fact!

[Aerows]

82. It certainly won't happen

if you tell Democrats to stop posting here, either.

[VanillaRhapsody]

85. We are telling them to try being supportive...or consider they may not be a Democrat at all!

[Aerows]

89. Are you implying something?

Because if you are implying that I am not a Democrat, you haven't woken up nearly early enough in the morning, my dear.

[VanillaRhapsody]

93. Why is everything about YOU?

you might want to think about that...

everything I post...you somehow twist as being about YOU personally!

Guilty conscience?

[Aerows]

95. Since you keep replying to me?

If you were replying to someone else, I wouldn't think it was about me.

[VanillaRhapsody]

99. You replied to me first...and I keep trying to help you understand this conversation you joined.

but you are willfully trying not to.

Just trying to make me mad enough to say something you can alert on?

[VanillaRhapsody]

41. and its not just about criticism...its the terms "once great" and tyranny....

[Aerows]

48. Interesting narrative, sibling

And you complained that I put words in your mouth? Do point out where I used the word tyranny and the phrase "once great". I'll wait. This post doesn't count.

[VanillaRhapsody]

53. those two phrases WERE used on this thread...that YOU are supporting not criticizing

get it?

and what is up with calling me "sibling" last I checked we are not related

[Aerows]

56. Illumination for you

[VanillaRhapsody]

62. I am not your "bro" or your "sibling"

"dude"

[Aerows]

71. Scathing

I'm heartbroken.

[treestar]

65. but it's still not a tyranny

that's hyperbole. The very fact you can publicly criticize them shows that.

[Aerows]

72. That's true

But notice I didn't proclaim it to be tyranny, either. I do think the NSA is over reaching, and I stand by that opinion. I also think it is appropriate on a Democratically leaning political forum to voice that opinion. If you don't speak up, you don't get heard.

You don't have to agree with me. I don't have to agree with you, either. That is the beauty of our political system.

[last1standing]

58. I take your lack of understanding as proof I said something right.

I could have said "the tyranny of the propagandists" and also been correct judging from your comments.

[VanillaRhapsody]

63. You said "tyranny" and I know what that means...

I suggest a dictionary....

a : a government in which absolute power is vested in a single ruler; especially : one characteristic of an ancient Greek city-state

[last1standing]

66. I suggest you stop trying to force everyone to worship your idol.

Obama is not the embodiment of democracy and progressive ideology does not change to suit Obama's whims. But you will never be able to understand that so goodbye.

[VanillaRhapsody]

67. I don't have an idol...I have a President....a democratically elected one...by a majority vote

not once but TWICE. Which is VERY damn rare indeed....and I am so thankful that I voted for him

You however seem to think you voted for a Tyrant....shows what your judgement is worth huh?

[NoOneMan]

7. The last thing we should decide to do with the NSA issue is make it about people

[BeyondGeography]

8. Xmas chum is here

Sleigh bells in the air...

[HereSince1628]

13. Somehow I expected to see 2013 names!

But, I'll play...

Josh McCown not for being a quarterback of decent ability, but because as second stringer he stepped up and stepped down with a grace that's a worthy lesson.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

15. Recommended. And a Merry Christmas to you, quinnox. nt

[quinnox]

16. Thanks, likewise!

[NuclearDem]

34. Oh man, quinnox, look what you did!

[quinnox]

40. LOL, I can't help it!

My words always seem to rub authoritarian types the wrong way!

[Aerows]

45. Seems like it did

This is the same thing that irritated the shit out of me during the Bush presidency. He fucked something up, and people insisted it was the best thing that ever happened. No one is infallible, and the NSA shit impacts me because I'm in IT. I'm supposed to just STFU and STFD because the person I voted for might possibly be impacted if I show anything less than unfailing loyalty.

Screw that.

[quinnox]

49. Yep, I well remember, "Bush-bots"

Unfortunately these types are not confined to one political party. The Snowden saga has proved that over and over again in 2013.

[VanillaRhapsody]

73. "the snowden saga"

has proven alot more on DU than you think!

[grasswire]

52. looks to me like someone spiked the punch at the cheerleaders' holiday party

Whole lotta giggling and nonsense going on, for no apparent reason.

[Aerows]

106. Merry Christmas, grasswire

I don't know wtf is going on in this thread to provoke such vitriol, but may it be dispelled with Christmas joy.

[Jack Rabbit]

84. K/R

Merry Christmas to all and may freedom ring in the New Year.