I/m so tired of reading criticism of Obama on DU

[busterbrown]

by members who are dissatisfied with his positions on NSA and other MIC operation which have been around for, I dunno how many years? The immense power this Triangle has? It really controls practically every aspect of our lives. It needs to be dismantled, but it ain’t gonna happen until the electorate understands what it’s all about...and thats the stinking money..

Jesus Christ, you people really think Obama should have immediately established a Red Line against the
operations of the Military Industrial Complex as soon as he became President?

And if he did begin a curtailing operation and in anyway our freaking “Homeland” was attacked during this process, I really believe the House, Senate and White House would have turned beet red for at least 2 election cycles..

And one more thing, I detest Ayn Rand Libertarian Objectivism with it’s States Rights Racist agenda to such an extent, that anyone who lives in that world can go to hell!!!

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/10/edward_snowden_a_libertarian_hero/

[VanillaRhapsody]

1. THANK YOU! I agree wholeheartedly! +1000

[busterbrown]

4. I was reading the other thread on this subject..

reading through all the push back you received and it pissed me off.

I don’t ever recall you stating that Obama should not be criticized..It is so ridiculous to pin that on anyone who supports our POTUS... I’ll give you one example, Arne Duncan and the whole Ed. privatization discussion . It annoys me that Obama has remained neutral on such an important matter...

[VanillaRhapsody]

8. I agree...but this site shouldn't be overwhelming the ..."Let's piss and moan

about Obama and all democrats and how they're killing this country" club...

and that is exactly what it has become....

[okaawhatever]

20. Many of the anti-Obama, anti-NSA crowd aren't even American. I've noticed quite a few foreigners

who keep the anti-NSA discussion going around here. Multiple threads, many many more than one sees on other Democratic sites, etc. I'm not worried, but they do make visiting the site a downer because I don't want to sift through all the b.s but eventually they will go away and the true Democrats and intelligent discussion will return.

[NobodyHere]

25. Blame foreigners

What an original tactic.

[VanillaRhapsody]

26. It couldn't possibly happen though huh?

[FreakinDJ]

135. They called us UnAmerican for criticizing Bush too

[villager]

47. You'd have to be unAmerican to criticize a President! Or the military! Or our spying apparatus!

Thank you for clarifying, Senator!

[okaawhatever]

59. Someone who is a citizen of another country is not considered un-American if they don't support the

President or military/NSA. They're not American to start with.
There are many foreigners on the site who rabidly oppose the NSA and what it's doing, ditto Obama. They don't have the same concerns or perspective as those who live here. It's the same reason I read Israeli newspapers for perspective on the situation in the middle east. I don't know what it's like to live as they do. I can intellectualize all I want, but knowing I won't have to face the consequences as they do gives me a different perspective and mindset.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you came up with a negative connotation for my post. I didn't have one when I wrote it, and yet you jumped straight to McCarthy. I think that says much more about you than it does my post.

[villager]

66. Maybe you should ask why all criticism of government overreach in a democracy seems "foreign" to you

In other words, can you understand that much criticism of this Constitution-busting spying comes from "actual" Americans, as well?

[demosincebirth]

91. You may be right. nt.

[Enthusiast]

96. Pffft!

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[kelliekat44]

116. One viewing of Oliver Stone's "Untold History of the United States" ought to wake people up to

why Obama or any other modern President is limited in what can be done in this country...how and where the ignorance became endemic. Same tactics are still in play. Corporate control of the state and governments...amazing.

[Lil Missy]

2. DU is a very small (but vocal) fraction of a fraction of Democrats nationwide

No need to despair. DU does not represent the majority of Democratic opinion. And that's not to say there aren't some thoughtful and knowledgeable members here - you just have to separate the facts from the fiction and sometimes uninformed opinions. Not always an easy task.

[grahamhgreen]

61. LOL, progressives represent the majority American view both Dem and R.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

103. I'm afraid that's simply not supported by evidence. It's pure wishful thinking.

What the evidence shows is that, in the past, only a relatively small fraction of American have chosen to vote for progressives.

In the last 7 presidential elections both Democratic candidates who have won twice each (Clinton, Obama) have probably been less progressive by most measures than the three who lost once each (Dukakis, Kerry, Gore). There were obviously many other factors at play, so that may just be a coincidence, but I think the balance of the other evidence suggests it's not.

[grahamhgreen]

115. Check the polls. The people want more taxes on the hoarding class, end to costly trade agreements,

Medicare for all, increasing SS, no more wars for profit, cut the big war budget, jail banksters..... Etc....

http://www.nationalmemo.com/big-majorities-favor-progressive-tax-and-spend-policies-polls-show/

But whatever... Happy Holidays!!! Best to you and yours

[walkingman]

3. I don't think he should ever establish a red line

because that is just painting yourself into a corner. However I do totally disagree with the continued support of these meaningless wars simply to pacify the MIC. People are killed and displaced for absolutely no good reason. On top of that, HIS drone war will prove (I think) to be something that will come back to bite us here in the US. It is immoral and I think very close to an international crime.

The longer we continue this stupid foreign policy the more enemies we make. Obama is laying the groundwork for a more dangerous world and is blurring the lines politically for many Americans.

The Democrats are beginning to lose their identity with concessions on SS and War as they move further to the right.

Get over it Buster!!

[busterbrown]

5. I was specifically referring to the Snowden hero Bullshit..n/t

[whatchamacallit]

70. Yeah, the fuckers spying on us are heroes who deserve our protection from evil whistleblowers

[busterbrown]

93. Especially when the evil whistleblowers are right wing libertarians..

Very interested that you are blocking for a Ayn Rand Libertarian who also believes in State Rights..
Which us code for what? Yea thats what bothers me.. Care to comment?

[whatchamacallit]

110. Yeah I do

I'm blocking for the fucking constitution. I don't give a shit who alerts me to abuses of my rights. Who I find interesting are the kill the messenger crowd. They come in several flavors:

The cover-the-president's-ass-even-if-it-means-fucking-ourselves-and-fellow-americans crowd

The Turd-Way-corporate-rights-trump-citizen's-rights crowd

And RW trolls

Care to comment?

[busterbrown]

112. You don’t think that Right Wing Libertarian Objectivism is a threat to our Constitution?

Give me a break!!! Money is the end game is not a threat? That a Woman should have govt. tell her what and what she shouldn’t do with her body. Forced fucking sonograms ?? States should be allowed to tell an Afro-American what public bathrooms they can use? These are not threats?

The Constitution Card is used has many flavors doesn’t.. Tea Baggers use it a lot don’t they?

[whatchamacallit]

114. Only fools buy the straw you peddle

That you prefer to obscure the service he did us by dwelling on his unrelated (yes unrelated) political identification, is all anyone needs to know about you and your motives. BTW do you know for a fact that all libertarians, and Snowden in particular, support the positions you describe above, or is it just more slime?

[busterbrown]

117. Funny you know so little about the Ron and Rand Paul crowd..

They claimed that Ron never engaged in Racist rhetoric..Want a link?

[whatchamacallit]

118. They're not the subject of this conversation

But you knew that. This game is as ridiculous as it is transparent.

Man on deck: "Hang on I'll toss you a life preserver!"

busterbrown <struggling in the water>:"Wait, don't throw it if you're a libertarian!"

[busterbrown]

119. I started the thread and they are to me..

I stated in a reply that Objectivism is a threat to the Constitution...
Are you in agreement with me that Ron Paul is a Racist at least?

Please get back... Thanks

[whatchamacallit]

120. Yeah, the Pauls are fucking morons

But I'd rather hear from moron that I'm getting screwed than not know. Not so for you I guess. Weird.

[busterbrown]

121. And a threat to our Constitution?

The MIC is a huge problem.. We need to dismantle it.. !!

[whatchamacallit]

122. You're all over the map

How does going after whistleblowers help dismantle the MIC? I think it won't be long until you trip over your own wire.

[busterbrown]

124. All over because I should stick with one message?

Message #1 MIC should be dismantled.. Simple Enough?
Message #2 I see the Libertarian Party as a huge threat to our country and I don’t trust for one second anyone who is attached to their ideology..

[whatchamacallit]

143. Uh huh...

[DisgustipatedinCA]

151. Wake the fuck up

You're arguing that Edward Snowden's politics are more dangerous than the jackals he has exposed. Don't ever, ever take a logic class--you'll fail.

[grasswire]

9. here's the problem with Obama's acquiescence to surveillance state..

....and MIC desires.

Democrats have now lost the ability to campaign on those precious principles that we have always held honorable and moral.

Obama allows war crimes. That takes the issue away from Democrats.

Obama allows banksters to walk. That takes the issue away from Democrats.

Obama capitulates to NSA/MIC. Issue neutralized.

This trend, whether caused by capitulation or by agreement with conservative policies, has damaged Democrats horribly.

[VanillaRhapsody]

12. I think you are wrong....

the other side said that about their establishment too....and they call them Liberals.

[grasswire]

77. who do you think is "other side"? nt

[Scuba]

100. Bingo.

[Logical]

94. LOL, maybe the worst post this week! nt

[Savannahmann]

6. At first it was a few who spoke out

Then it was more, and then it was many. Eventually, the war in Viet-Nam was ended. When the protests started, it was a Democrat in the White House. Police trumped party. When the war ended. It was a Republican in the White House. Policy trumped party.

Standing up for the right thing is the point of the entire thing. You don't just sit back and endure the intolerable because a member of your party is in charge. You stand up for the right thing because it is the right thing.

I would speak out if a white cop beat a defenseless black man. I would speak out if a black cop beat a defenseless white man. The point is not the color, the point is the cops beating on a defenseless man.

I will speak out and demand a reigning in of the NSA if a Republican is in the White House.

I will speak out and demand a reigning in of the NSA if a Democrat is in the White House.

I will speak out and demand a reigning in of the NSA if an Independent is in the White House.

It isn't about the party that occupies the White House. It isn't about the next election and what may happen. It is about the rights of the citizens under the Constitution that all of them are supposed to have sworn to protect and defend.

Putting politics before principle dooms both the politician's, and the citizens they are supposed to serve. That's how we got into this mess, and the way out is to embrace the principles that are written down in the 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendment.

I have chastised President Obama for continuing this debacle.

I will continue to chastise President Obama for continuing these policies.

I'll probably be chastising the next President when he/she continues the policies.

I'll probably chastise the 46th President for continuing these policies.

I don't know who they will be. I do know what I will believe, because what I believe is that we must fight for our rights, no matter who is in the White House, and no matter what the scary future may hold. Fear of the unknown has gotten us here, and I am far more afraid of what is happening to pretend to protect us from the unknown than I am of the unknown.

[busterbrown]

11. Again, I don’t think anyone will disagree with what you have written...

The MIC needs to be addressed and it is an urgent matter in my opinion.. But the country has a whole needs to be behind the dismantling process and perhaps that day is on its way.. The ACA is a good start..

People in this country need to realize how screwed they are getting by this golden money making machine..

However my immediate complaint concerns the Edward Snowden’s hero crap...

[VanillaRhapsody]

13. Now he is a hero of the caliber of Thomas Jefferson...haven't you heard?

[busterbrown]

15. Un fucking believable.. Sounds like a Tea Bag idiot..N/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

16. it's damn nutty I know that....

[Savannahmann]

99. Before Edward Snowden

People who had read the PATRIOT ACT, and would talk about the kinds of surveillance we suspected was going on based upon the technology, and the tech centers being built, were dismissed as Conspiracy Theory nuts.

When the revelations first started coming out, the naysayers were claiming it was made up, or this is my favorite. Old news since the Conspiracy Theory types they had denounced had already told us about it.

Edward Snowden did a great thing, bringing all of this kicking and screaming into the light. Somewhere in Moscow, there is a CIA assassin waiting for the go-ahead to end the life of the horrid little traitor. But what did Snowden really do?

He took away the first and second line of defense. He took away the "It's just conspiracy theory crap." defense. He took away the "It's for the good of the country to protect us" defense since NONE of the programs have prevented one terrorist attack. The success of the programs appears to be that the Terrorists who hope to attack us are inept (Shoe bomber and underpants bomber) or coaxed into being terrorists just so the FBI informant can make his quota.

Now, does that make him a hero? It depends on your point of view. If your point of view is that the first step in dismantling the MIC is raising awareness then yes, he is a hero. He was the first to offer proof that the Emperor had no clothes. His wise decision not to surrender into the black hole of prison/detainment/lawyers/government statements meant that the Government could not declare that no interviews were possible since he was held in solitary confinement in the ultra secure section of the prison ala Manning.

His very well thought out decision to work with established reporters at more than one news organization meant that the normal competitive impulses of the press would make sure that someone told the story. The President could lean on the NY Times to get them to hold the story, but if they agreed, it was knowing that the Guardian would break the story anyway. Bloody Brilliant. When those organizations were leaned on, German, Russian, and Brazilian took up the slack making the pressure useless.

One of the things I always try to do is get people to think several steps ahead. In other words, if you win this argument using that position, where does that leave you? Like a pool player, it's not enough to sink the ball, you have to leave the ball where it sets you up for the next shot.

Snowden has demonstrated the wisdom of that better than anyone in Washington. We see them run around from issue to issue using the talking point of the day, but never considering where the end result should be, or will be.

Take the information, leave the country, stay where the American reach is muted, which pretty much is either communist, socialist, or former Soviet states. Places where they have sufficient power to limit the revenge of the American rage. How awesome is that rage? It's awesome enough that the President of Bolivia was forced to land and submit to an inspection to make sure that the evil Snowden was not on board.

Snowden may be a Douche, and he may be an attention seeking little twit. But he did this smart, and he did something that stripped away the veil of denial and secrecy and brought the continuance of immoral practice into the light. For that, we owe him thanks. We should also enjoy the ride and know that every day he is free of American custody, and torture, is a good day for those of us who think that Civil Rights are the most important guarantee from the Constitution.

[busterbrown]

111. I never thought that what Snowden did was wrong.

I simply stated what you addressed in the last paragraph.
You left out the fact that he is Rand Paul Libertarian supporter which in my mind makes him practically evil.
Objectivism is a horrible ideology which leads to despair for many..

I also stated that the MIC is a dangerous entity which has its prongs in every aspect of our country’s
economic structure.. Decades in the making it would be totally unreasonable to assume that Obama could shut it down w/o extreme political repercussions.

If he initiated a shutdown and there was any kind of terrorists operation against the U.S,. there would be such a hateful response from the right, that I feel all 3 branches of govt. would be bright red for several election cycles.. Look at Benghazi!!! A lie that gathered tremendous shameful traction ..

[Savannahmann]

139. Then we shoult torture people day in and day out

Randomly pick them up and torture them to confess. If we don't, and one of them does something, like launch a terrorist attack, then we might be blamed for not torturing the people to make them confess.

Worrying about what someone might say if something bad happens, is a course of action that guarantees two outcomes, both bad. 1) Inaction. Inaction means you are afraid of making a move because if you do, someone may complain. That is where we are now. The machinery is set in motion, and everyone in power is afraid to shut it down, because if they do, and something happens, then the news stories will be full of how they could have violated the constitution and protected a dozen people, or a hundred.

There is one other kind of mistake you make when you are worried about what someone may say in some murky future. You become your enemy. Don't you realize that people dreamed of coming to this country from nations that did just this kind of privacy invading thing? The KGB used to spy on their citizens, and when the wall fell Russians chased their dream of freedom by coming here. Eastern Europe held for generations under the various secret police organizations. Look at history, there is no good outcome from a secret police. We might be the first, but there is every chance we'll be the next in line.

I can name many of them from the top of my head. I bet you can too. President Obama could have said "I am a constitutional Scholar, and I have taught Constitutional Law. These programs violate the 4th Amendment, and I am sworn to uphold the Constitution. I swore that oath when I got my law degree, and I swore it as a representative in Illinois, and I swore it again as a US Senator. I will not violate that oath, and I will not subvert the Constitution out of fear of the unknown."

I could write a speech that outlined the right course of action. You could write it. We could have started this debate years ago, instead even today our Government is struggling to put the genie back in the bottle. Oh we can't let the Courts hear this information, they might harm National Security. Every month our excuse sound weaker, because every month our excuses are weaker.

I will not march blithely into the arms of an authoritarian Government no matter who is the head of that Government. I will not stand by and remain silent when even one persons rights are being trampled. We as a people must demand that our Government places our rights first and foremost. Because if we don't, we might as well admit that the FBI/DHS/CIA/NSA has become nothing more than the Stazi/Savak/KGB/MSS/Bulgarian DS/Sigurimi and who knows how many others. Because if we don't arbitrarily detain and question people, one of them might be ready to commit a crime against the people, and imagine how many lives we could save by finding out ahead of time who the dissenters are.

[Thinkingabout]

128. If you think Snowden is a hero then you should think George W Bush is a greater hero.

[Savannahmann]

138. That makes as much sense as a screen door on a submarine.

Bush started the NSA programs I object to. Snowden exposed them taking the discussion out of conspiracy theory into reality, how do you come to that conclusion?

[Thinkingabout]

141. He also revealed the phone call collecting back in 2005, it should make him a bigger hero

than Snowden. Where has all the complaining gone in the years from 2005 until 2013?

[Savannahmann]

142. Again, the complaints were labeled as conspiracy theory and locked here on DU

The people who complained in the press were labeled as CT nuts and similarly shunned.

It wasn't until there was a lot of proof, the first revelations from Snowden were dismissed as CT nonsense. Then there was more, and then the defense of the authoritarians went to we knew about it already, and for a long time, because of those same CT denounced people.

I guess the new meme is a recycle of the if you approve of Snowden you're helping the Rethugs. It didn't get much traction when it was first tried. Buried under the its all legal now and shut up it's old news anyway meme.

[Thinkingabout]

148. Perhaps there were many who did not listen when Bush said they was collecting phone call

data in 2005. Do you recall all the hype of those claiming all their calls was being monitored? Is this the CT you speak? I did hear about collections and wiretaps without a warrant and did not agree with this happening.

[840high]

52. Good.

[zeemike]

72. Those point are all lost on team players.

Because with them it is all about the team winning and not about what they are playing for.
And that silly notion has become a part of a lot of people's lives...politics has become much like a football game on the TV...where you can cheer when your team wins and it makes you feel good all over.
Moral principles take a back seat to winning...and contrary to belief, team loyalty does not insure victory in the next game.

What will win it for the democrats is addressing the issues that you mention with actions, not just words...and this president has not done that...and the reason for it I don't know.
I was thrilled when he won and had great hopes for change, and waited for 4 years for it, but it never came and he continued the policies of Bush right on after all the promises he made in the election...should I then just shut up and cheer for him?...because we won?

[Puzzledtraveller]

147. ^^this^^

[Demeter]

102. amen!

And to get it done, we need heroes like Manning, Snowden, Assange, Pope Francis, etc.

[spin]

127. +1000. If we lose our free press, our freedom and our privacy, the terrorists will have won. ...

Our form of government will no longer be superior to theirs.

[Egalitarian Thug]

130. +1 & A happy, merry, peaceful holiday to you. n/t

[99Forever]

7. Sorry to hear that.

I'd suggest you take an extended break from DU then. It's going to keep getting louder no matter how much tools and toadies try to silence us.

[VanillaRhapsody]

10. So the point is to take OVER DU then? Is that it?

because everyone who disagrees with you is a tool or toady


cause that sounds mighty familiar to this ear.


and that is YOU trying to silence those you call "tools and toadies" get it?

[grahamhgreen]

62. Point is to take back our country.

[VanillaRhapsody]

68. that's NOT what he said....I was paying attention.

[busterbrown]

14. You mean you are gonna turn this into a....

How sensible the Libertarians are when it comes to curtailing the NSA? You honestly believe that Edward is a hero?

[99Forever]

17. I'm not going to "turn it into" anything.

I honestly think Edward Snowden is a true patriot and a great American. My bar for hero status is somewhat higher.

[Puglover]

18. So does Amy Goodman.

But hey a few anonymous posters on DU are coming unglued about it so Amy must be full of crap.

[busterbrown]

22. I love Amy Goodman, however, would change my mind in a heartbeat if I heard her

state things that I know she wouldn’t..Perhaps a link would help..

[Puglover]

24. Sure thing.

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/6/10/tonight_watch_amy_goodman_on_msnbcs_up_with_chris_hayes_at_8_40pm_et

Here's another for you.

http://soundcloud.com/democracynow/edward-snowden-is-a-patriot

Have a nice evening.

[busterbrown]

31. Got it!!!

But still need to hear her response when confronted with Snowden’s political identity.
Which to me trumps everything. Got it.. It trumps everything!!

This discussion was never held!!

[Puglover]

32. Have another eggnog.

[busterbrown]

43. I only care about his Libertarian Bullshit..

Your words only.. Not the discussion of NSA spying... Which I detest when breaking laws..

[LeftyMom]

19. Third Way Manny really should have copyrighted this shtick.

The rest of you are the Freewood Post to his Onion.

[pa28]

56. Sadly, I think you are witnessing the real thing.

[Egalitarian Thug]

132. I think you're right. n/t

[blkmusclmachine]

21. Meh. Free country. I'll exercise my right to speak, thanks.

[Incitatus]

23. So if we do not like what the NSA is doing, who do we criticize?

I agree that the MIC has amassed a great deal of power and influence over the years. Perhaps enough to manipulate presidents. But what is the solution?

[VanillaRhapsody]

28. Not getting a bunch more teabagging republicans elected in the midterms would be a good start

[walkingman]

36. I think the solution

is to stop making our military troops heroes and start calling them what they are - victims.

Victims of the political and corporate machine that somehow equates war with patriotism, insists that everything the military does is protecting our freedom (even as we lose more and more everyday), and immediately stop this ongoing process of privatizing our conflicts - profit should never be a motive during war.

Peace

[busterbrown]

84. You expressed something that I always wanted to say but didn’t quite know how to do..

Most of the kids who joined up to revenge 911 probably thought they were going to engage in a fantasy war
similar to the ones on the big screen or on their play station.. Victims.. You are so right!!!

[hughee99]

65. We criticize Bush.

and as the OP said, we can't expect Obama to do anything about this, it might end up hurting us politically... and we can't trust the repukes because they'll put politics before our safety and our rights.

[MannyGoldstein]

71. Two-thirds of Americans hate Project Spy On Everyone™

Last edited Wed Dec 25, 2013, 01:59 AM - Edit history (1)

Perhaps it would be popular to do what Americans actually want?

[hughee99]

83. I agree, but it's odd that it's the right thing to do,

and it's the popular thing to do, and yet it's still not getting done. I expect that the task forces recommendations will not be implemented, even if they say they will be.

[Incitatus]

73. Bush is no longer the President and I will never vote for a Republican.

My concern is the power of the MIC and what they can do no matter who we elect to the White House.

[hughee99]

81. I think that's exactly the concern to have...

There are the people we vote into positions of power, and sometimes we find ourselves in situations where it makes it clear that the people who truly hold the power aren't voted on by anyone.

[spin]

131. Damn good question. I wish I had the answer. It may be too late to limit the power of the NSA. ...

Our elected representatives and our President may make token efforts to reduce the power of the NSA in order to appease the voters but these will probably not stop the NSA from gathering intelligence on all citizens.

If so, we will live in a nation of the NSA, for the NSA and by the NSA.

People will eventually be very careful of what they post on DU or other similar forums on the internet and will also be careful of what they say to their neighbors and co-workers. Our free press will no longer report stories that make the government look bad and our politicians will tow the line set down by those who know all and consequently have the power to run our nation form behind a curtain.

[1StrongBlackMan]

27. See that's the advantage of NOT being ...

the President (or an elected official) ... we can pontificate and hold a "moral" position with no consequence ... none ... zero. The President (and elected officials) do not have that luxury ... every decision they make has real world and real life consequences. In the best case, we can criticize the "obvious bad decision." In the worst case, we can be silent or worst, abandon our previously held "moral" position (hoping no one remembers) and ask, "why didn't they do something to prevent this?"

[VanillaRhapsody]

30. 4 words for today...

"tyranny" and "once great country"

[busterbrown]

37. Crap never ends does it?

Off to a Las Posada event... Stay strong... I can’t believe this crap.. No one seems to have a discussion about Ed’s relationship with the Libertarian Party..

[VanillaRhapsody]

45. Will do! Have a great time at your event...

I am still working tonight and traveling tomorrow so have an eggnog for me!

[busterbrown]

48. I will!! Thanks..

[treestar]

41. +1

As OP said, if Obama did all that is so easily demanded from a keyboard, the Republicans would have a field day. Some spying has to be done. Eddie should have used the Whistleblower protection Act and then I'd have some respect for him.

[1StrongBlackMan]

46. Damn the republicans and their field day ...

if President Obama did most of what the key-board wizards demand, the US would resemble Iraq or Afghanistan, with bombs going off every day or two.

[valerief]

29. Isn't this whining about DU in GD?

Discuss politics, issues, and current events. No posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports unless there is really big news. No conspiracy theories. No whining about DU.

[busterbrown]

33. Huh?

[valerief]

35. Statement of Purpose for the General Discussion forum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022542300

[busterbrown]

39. I got that... But if I had a dime for every time someone went off topic..

I’d be rich!!!

[valerief]

42. I didn't alert abuse or anything. I just thought I'd point it out. nt

[busterbrown]

44. That’s cool...

I’m so glad Peter’s back...

[treestar]

38. True, but you know Black Presidents have to do ten times as much

to get a tenth of the credit.

Most of the structure is in place, and basically, it works. The only real problem is too many Republicans being voted in. And we have our fellow citizens to thank for that.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

76. Wow

+100 for that one.

[Doctor_J]

82. black presidents?

Have there been a lot of them that I wasn't told about? You need to stop playing the race card every day. You're demeaning the president.

We voted in big numbers of dems in 2008. All they did was act like republicans. Maybe they should try acting like dems for the next year and see what happens. It can't get much worse.

[madamesilverspurs]

40. Criticism is one thing.

Unrelenting targetting is something else entirely. And, yes, there are some days when it seems I've accidentally stumbled onto a winger site. Villifying this president at every opportunity is what Fox and republicans do, so it is sad to see it here.

As for Snowden, I'd trust him a bit less than half the distance I could throw him. There's a huge difference between what he knows and what he thinks he knows, and that affects his agenda every bit as much as his judgement.

[VanillaRhapsody]

50. Very well said!

I wish I were as erudite as some are on this forum...

[okaawhatever]

64. +1000

[Bobbie Jo]

95. Exactly.

Apparently, they think we're too damn stupid to know the difference.

As for Snowden, he strikes me as the type who would throw his own grandmother under the bus if he had to. IOW.....don't turn your back on him.

[Number23]

125. And have you read his Christmas Message?

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/snowdens-christmas-messgae-2013-12#ixzz2oUr5gFxp

He's definitely giving Assange a run in the Megalomaniac Menagerie.

I've long suspected that one of the reasons that the folks here carry on so orgasmically about Snowden is because the rest of the world has been so "meh" about him. People know surveillance occurs and have always known. People know that EVERYTHING they do on their computers, phones etc. can be tracked and discovered. As has been proven over and over again, people are far more concerned about crime than they are about surveillance and if they think that surveillance will lessen the chance of serious crimes occurring, they are mostly okay with it. As someone who thinks the Patriot Act is wrong, I may not agree but that is the fact of the matter. I've found the discussion about how ISP's are reacting to all of this to be by far the most compelling angle to this story.

Washington Post, one of the sources of his initial leaks, just did a write up this week where they mention that the people most concerned about NSA surveillance are conservatives.

The Post poll found Americans almost equally bothered by government surveillance as they are by corporate snooping, with 69 percent concerned about tracking by Internet search and social-media companies and 66 percent worried about what the government does. Overall, more-educated and affluent Americans were less likely to be concerned about surveillance. Political conservatives tended to be more concerned about government surveillance.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/americans-uneasy-about-surveillance-but-often-use-snooping-tools-post-poll-finds/2013/12/21/ca15e990-67f9-11e3-ae56-22de072140a2_story.html

Let that sink in.

[blue14u]

144. Exactly! ^^^THIS^^^ is the most

intelligent post in this thread...

I am "far more concerned with crime than I am surveillance".

"Overall, more-educated and affluent Americans were less likely to be concerned about surveillance."

I agree 100%.

[FogerRox]

49. How about baiting people with an OP

OR just flat out picking a fight, @DK they call 'em pie fights.

[elfin]

51. Thank you eom

[Le Taz Hot]

53. Says someone who has been here

a little over a year. If you're looking for an echo chamber, you might try www.Democrats.com. Lots of people here not interested in playing the blind partisan stooge. Sorry if that frightens you.

[VanillaRhapsody]

55. Now not only are we tools and toadys but "blind partisan stooges"

do you all not know that you are being insulting or what? BUT you all play the victim cards!

[Le Taz Hot]

58. The OP started this thread stomping his/her feet

Last edited Wed Dec 25, 2013, 09:10 AM - Edit history (1)

and pouting because we're not playing blind devotee to President Obama. What the hell did he/she expect? You throw shit, you might want to don some plastic ware is all I'm sayin'.

[VanillaRhapsody]

79. that's not the same as calling other democrats "toadies", "tools" and "stooges"

in fact that is the very epitome of WHY this OP WAS written! For crying out loud...Swoosh right over!

[Le Taz Hot]

97. Nothing you or the OP could say

is going over anybody's head here. Neither of you could offer up intelligent debate if your lives depended on it. It's why people are reacting they way they are. If you or the OP don't care for DUers' DIVERSE OPINIONS you are both free to find another board wherein never is heard a discouraging word. Now, both of you need to stop embarrassing yourselves.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Easy peachy, use the trash...it is a nice button by the side of the thread.

and happy holidays.

[VanillaRhapsody]

57. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

thanks for the laugh!

[busterbrown]

92. Thanks for the help..

Difficult to believe that people can be so blind no to realize that we are at such a critical point in our history and that our primary objective should be to get people in office who will support and push a movement which would begin the process of dismantling this horrid system of war profiteering..

[dballance]

60. You have a very good point!

The Pentagon admirals and generals are there for life. The CIA, NSA, etc., managers are there for the long-term.

The President is in office for, at most, 8 years. There is no possible way s/he could really effect changes on the scale people expect them to make. The entrenched beauracracy won't allow it.

Google "JFK Assassination"

[Demo_Chris]

63. If not a Democratic President, then WHO? nt

[Jamaal510]

67. I've been saying this

from almost since the beginning. The NSA program dates back (at least) to the 1960s. Not only that, but the U.S. isn't even the only country that has a surveillance program; Germany, Brazil, Russia, etc. all have one, too. Knowing this, what would we look like totally dismantling ours while they keep theirs?
Once I found out that Snowden supported Ron Paul, I started to question his motives for what he did. Did he really do this because he was so concerned about privacy and freedom (never mind him fleeing to a country where those concepts have very little place), or is this yet another non-scandal being used against Obama from the Right?
Don't expect any minds to be changed with this thread, though. Many DUers will obviously overlook those tidbits regardless, while a few infiltrators will continue trying to manufacture outrage here to divide us:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023152339

[busterbrown]

87. Perhaps a way to make a little dough..

Think he might have a memoir or two? I think so..

[NuclearDem]

69. I'm not demanding he dismantle the MIC and abolish capitalism

Just maybe don't blow up weddings, force feed prisoners, push forward a corporate power grab, leave an environmentally disastrous project up for any answer than no, and keep the guy who lied to Congress.

Again, not exactly out with pitchforks, just want even a token lefty policy action every now and again.

[Pholus]

75. I'm tired of reading criticism of PRESIDENT Obama on DU too.

If he kept the policies about surveillance that SENATOR Obama discussed, probably it wouldn't even be an issue.

[Thinkingabout]

129. What policy are you referring?

[Pholus]

137. The one discussed explicitly by the OP. nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

78. for your own peace of mind I would recommend that you stay away from the debating clubs of DU

and perhaps limit your participation to either apolitical forums like the lounge or to this group here:

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1102



This particular group is not a debating society and its active participants are as sick and tired of reading criticisms of President Obama as you are. It is a safe and protected place where the most devoted supporters of our President can meet to speak of his goodness, share anecdotes of his kindness, marvel at his greatness and reflect upon his wisdom.

[busterbrown]

88. My mind is at rest this eve..Thanks for the concern.

I actually was reacting to an earlier OP where I of my new found pals was out numbered so I joined in to support him...I have honestly enjoyed this..

[Number23]

126. Hey, it's been about three whole weeks since I've seen some mindless BOG bashing.

Thanks for catching us all up!

[Douglas Carpenter]

136. no its safe place where those who wish to only think good thoughts about the President can feel at

home - safe from the ugly reaches of critical nuanced thinking

[Number23]

140. Thanks again! It's apparent that you think your comments are criticizing the BOG and

its participants while making yourself look good/feel superior etc. While both of those contentions would be horribly wrong, who am I to stop someone on such an obvious roll???

[seattledo]

80. Why the misspelling in a two letter word in the title?

Is that code for something? An insult? A sarcasm indicator that's shows you don't believe what you're spouting and are actually insulting us? What does it mean?

I've seen punks in my classroom use Microsoft-style assbackwards slashes to insult fellow teachers that are Microsoft-cultists.

[busterbrown]

89. I’m lucky if I do a cut and paste correctly!!!

Nothing more going on here than what I wrote..

[baldguy]

85. Say "Amen!" somebody!

More & more I think the Snowden fans' parroting RW libertarian objectivist talking points aren't just clueless children who've become Rand Paul's dupes. I think they really believe that shit.

[politichew]

86. Drastically cutting defense and intelligence operations to create more safety...

is the far left's equivalent to the far right's idea of getting all of government out of the way to create a better society.

President Barack Obama is not an idiotologue.

[demosincebirth]

90. Everyone, here, it seems, has their little own pet peeves that he hasn't changed or changed

enough to their own satisfaction. "He'll be damned if he does and damned if he doesn't."

[TheKentuckian]

98. I bet Im more sick of the defending the indefensible, excusing the unacceptable, meeting insane evil

"the middle", feeding unmitigated avarice in absurd supposed efforts to rein it in, and perversion and selling out of our values.

Obama is a temporary cog, we have to live with this shit sans golden parachutes and I am sick to tears of having to rip into him but that is his fault and I shouldn't have to but here we are.

Fucking " Red Line against the operations of the Military Industrial Complex as soon as he became President?". Seriously, how about a shadow of restraint more than halfway through his eligibility?

Are we holding out in faithful hope for a word of parsed warning on the way out the door? Stop the bullshit, Obama is either down with the agenda or under the thumb, spends the same to me.

[hobbit709]

101. To quote another President.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt

[Bluenorthwest]

105. I'm tired of GD being full of Meta posts and religious materials that are ostensibly forbidden in GD

Both are posts that whine about the failings in inferiority of others, both are against the SOP of GD. The hypocrisy of those who break the admin's stated rules in order to correct other people is towering. The religious seem particularly immune from following rules, although their clerics demand that I follow their rules or be attacked as an enemy of God.

[Egalitarian Thug]

106. Nobody voted for Goldman-Sachs and he didn't run on a platform of

no billionaire left behind. But criticizing his actions and inaction, his continuing criminal policies, refusing to prosecute a decade of malfeasance, and his utter uselessness when it comes to helping Main Street is making you sick.

Well so sorry you has a sad, but trying being one of his victims and then come tell us how terribly unfair it all is to pick on the President.

[L0oniX]

107. Fuck the NSA and HLS and the MIC ...and the fucking CIA!

Making money from bloodshed and bombs ...working against the Constitution ...stealing from the poor to enrich the 1% ...turning people into neighbourhood spies ...funding the largest fucking military in the world while people starve ...what's not to like about who ever is the POTUS or SCOTUS of the moment? Oh yea they know better than you or I and they are protecting us whether we know it or not ...and freedom isn't free ...and you can say what you want because we went to war over something or other ...all the fucking romanticizing of war and killing is a core rotting sickness infecting society that will never know peace thanks to these megalomaniacs who love power, money and war.

We could do sooo much real good with the resources we still have. We could be good to people.

[busterbrown]

113. Well put and I agree whole heartedly. n/t

[Puzzledtraveller]

146. What LOonix said

[Ichingcarpenter]

108. I'm sick of delusional posters

that think Prez Obama runs the show.
I hardly ever criticize Obama, but I do
criticize his right wing Bush appointments that continue Bush's policies.

Hey......I gave him his first term but not the second term.... maybe he will do something after his last term is over
He's better than any republican but the middle of the road crap doesn't cut it anymore when the other side is driving on the shoulder.

How do you feel about 'state's rights'' on Marijuana and gay rights?

Since Obama didn't take the lead on those issues but some states did?

[maced666]

109. Well, I think criticism here is refreshing

It's not unbalanced, usually well written and thought out. So above the level of the 24/7 rabid maniacal crap the anti-Obama industry puts out everywhere else. Even his critics here know that he is the doing - for the most part - the progressive best he can and simply point out where he might improve.
The day the criticism here stops is when everyone becomes a parrot/robot. Which progressives aren't so we won't have to worry about that ever happening.
This is the one place I never worry about President Obama criticism. It's practically everywhere else that it is pointless, aimless and to be shunned.

[bvar22]

123. As far as the NSA Issue, President Obama has chosen sides,

....and it is NOT the side of The People.
He hasn't even attempted to appear neutral.

Instead of going to the People with promises to at least look into abuses by the NSA,
the Obama White House has Circled the Wagons to protect Liar Clapper,
who has become the laughingstock of the World,
and the poster boy for our Out-of-Control Spying Agencies.

James Clapper: Obama stands by intelligence chief as criticism mounts

The Obama team is expressing support for Clapper as criticism of him mounts. "The president has full faith in director Clapper and his leadership of the intelligence community," National Security Council spokeswoman Caitlin Hayden told the Guardian on Wednesday.

<snip>

Currently, the White House is standing behind Clapper. Obama "certainly believes that Clapper has been straight and direct in the answers that he's given, and has actively engaged in an effort to provide more information about the programs that have been revealed through the leak of classified information," press secretary Jay Carney said on Tuesday, calling Clapper "aggressive in providing as much information as possible to the American people".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/12/james-clapper-intelligence-chief-criticism

Instead of admitting that there are big problems with limits and oversights,
President Obama goes on the Tonight Show and denies that it is happening.
"There is no spying on Americans."


The Obama Administration became the target of International outrage & ridicule by forcing down a diplomatic jet
carrying the President of Bolivia in a Keystone Kops failed attempt to capture a Whistle Blower (Snowden).

These are just the latest examples.



I would like to see a decrease in criticism of President Obama,
but I would like to see it with Policy Changes and The President embracing of the Traditional Democratic Party Values
and Institutions (like Social Security, etc).

I have never really been a big fan of stopping criticism by Shutting UP the Critics.
Other countries and cultures have tried that approach.
It ended badly.

[Egalitarian Thug]

133. You honestly don't realize what you're saying here, do you?

[busterbrown]

134. Go right ahead and tell me..

maybe your 4th word in will be Constitution or perhaps even a reference to Thomas Jefferson... I’ve read it all...

[PowerToThePeople]

145. Then tell him to become a Democrat instead of a DINO. n/t

[Liberal_in_LA]

149. kick

[JoePhilly]

152. The perpetually disgruntled add some spice to DU.

They want what they want and they want it now.

And if Obama does what they want, well ... then it wasn't that important, or he didn't really want to do it, or THEY made him do it.

They'll simply move on to some other outrage .... something else that he should have done before doing that last thing, which wasn't so important anyway.

They'll be complaining until the day he leaves office.

What ever he has accomplished by then will be inconsequential, and whatever is left undone will become that which should have been his first priority.