You wanna see misogyny?! This is misogyny. DU internecine wars notwithstanding

[Pretzel_Warrior]

http://mediamatters.org/research/2013/12/26/know-your-role-and-shut-your-mouth-how-conserva/197372

[redqueen]

1. Do you also define racism for people of color?

Just curious.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

2. Just providing a link. Enjoy or don't. It is your choice.

[msongs]

7. are you interrupting terminal uniqueness lol nt

[Pretzel_Warrior]

42. heh. I had to look that up.

[The Straight Story]

3. I dunno, do people define what men are thinking when they look at a woman?

Possibly.

[NaturalHigh]

11. I've heard that happens sometimes.

[AverageJoe90]

21. I'm sorry, but that was uncalled for. nt

[NuclearDem]

4. Yes, that is misogyny.

It isn't the only type of misogyny though.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

6. True. I just saw this Media Matters piece on FB and thought

I would share. Let's unite against real enemies and stop raking each other over the coals.

[NuclearDem]

16. I'm not going to ignore misogyny and sexism among liberals and progressives

This isn't a time to play team politics. If we don't call out this stuff in our own circles, then all it does is make us look like hypocrites when we go after the right for doing it.

Sorry to break it to you, but there's misogyny among progressives and here on DU.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

24. go for it. it's your bandwidth. I happen to think there are more important things going on than

discussions of exactly how long a person's look goes from glance to a leer. So I'll be moving on to other topics. Apologies my link provided zero edification for you.

Just kidding. I'm not really sorry.

[chervilant]

43. So, then, why your near constant presence

(and commentary) in such discussions? Why not opt out?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

44. near constant? I do believe you overstate. I've avoided most of the recent threads

and as I said in other replies to my OP...I posted this one because it showed up on my FB feed and I thought it was a pretty good read. (as well as topical considering the last few days on DU).

[NuclearDem]

46. Then you clearly are not paying attention.

Because in what you call pointless conversations, we've had DUers:

1) Say how they use Hillary Clinton as a boner killer.
2) Say women should wear burkas if they don't want to be looked at.
3) Call male feminists the gender equivalent of race traitors.
4) And oh yeah, tell women to know their role if they're going to dress certain ways.

Your utterly flippant attitude towards this really makes me wonder. Misogyny is misogyny, whether the left or right do it. And frankly your unwillingness to discuss this with the feminists here just makes me think you only started this OP to bait them.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

61. I'm just waiting for proof.

For instance, I remember a woman asking (paraphrased) 'What, are women supposed to wear burkas to avoid men's stares?'

But I don't recall a male on DU actually saying "YES" to that or stating themselves that this should be the case.

Now, as I've said I haven't followed every reply in every gender thread assiduously, so one could have gotten by me. BUt please direct me to it.

I agree misogyny is bad whether someone left, right, or center engages in it. Same with man hate.

[xulamaude]

72. "Same with man hate."

Because there are sooooo many men who hate men!

omg.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

77. no. but there are women who hate men.

just as there are men who express hatred for women in all manner of behaviors, words, and attitudes.

[xulamaude]

81. And there are also women who hate women.

Who's getting the big end of the "hate" stick here?

[Whisp]

132. I guess men win the big hate stick then...

not only do they hate women, they hate men too with all that bombing and warring and shit.

[chervilant]

41. +a gazillion

The more grumbling we hear about 'radical feminists,' the more likely we're witnessing a defensive sexist or misogynist individual (or someone sadly misshapen by patriarchal precepts).

[Pretzel_Warrior]

45. when have I called anyone here a radical feminist?

I wouldn't accuse you of hyperbole...but you did just say + a gazillion.

[xulamaude]

49. So, does 'not' having called anyone a radical feminist

make you a good guy?

Are radical feminists bad or something?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

51. it is a necessary but insufficient condition of being a good guy. look up logical tautologies

if you would like to be further enlightened.

[xulamaude]

57. No, no, no

allow me to rephrase: Why would you deny having called anyone here a radical feminist? Mind you I'm not trying to imply that you did, but I am curious why you felt the need to deny it.

Are radical feminists bad? And if so, why?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

59. the reason why is pretty obvious

the poster I replied to said:

The more grumbling we hear about 'radical feminists,' the more likely we're witnessing a defensive sexist or misogynist individual (or someone sadly misshapen by patriarchal precepts).

So I specifically asked about that charge since it was used in a thread I started about conservative misogyny in Media Matters link.

[xulamaude]

64. It seems that you chose to take that 'radical feminists'

kind of personally though. That poster did not say 'the more grumblings we hear from you, PW, the more likely...'

You see what I'm saying? So, again, why deny you called anyone a radical feminist?

Are radical feminists bad?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

66. because the only one "in the room" as it were was little ol Pretzel Boy.

So I chose to ask what she was referring to. So far, the group going apeshit over this link I posted have provided very little hard proof for the incendiary claims they are laying down about male misogyny on DU.

[xulamaude]

67. Are you going to answer my question?

The one about radical feminists?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

71. already asked and answered

do I think radical feminists are bad? No. Would anyone that self identified as a radical feminist inhibit open healthy discussion at times on DU? Yes, much like radical anything would. Radical vegans, radical bicyclists....are often so focused on their mission that they will not see anyone else's view of the world. ever.

[xulamaude]

73. Even though "asked and answered"...

thanks for answering it, finally.

[NuclearDem]

76. That's not what radical feminism is.

Radical feminism is a term applied to the school of feminism that focuses on the patriarchy as the source of the oppression of women throughout history (as opposed to, say, Marxist feminists who see economics as being the source).

Basically, that applies to most vocal feminists I know. Radical doesn't mean over zealous or crazy in this context.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

85. well there you go.

[xulamaude]

87. Yes, thank you :)

And, just for edu-macational purposes, I'd like to add that often RF and MF overlap seeing as how economics is a patriarchal construct......

[11 Bravo]

141. So, beside the fact that DU is a patriarchal shithole, (founded by three guys, you know), and ...

populated by a bunch of misogynistic fuckheads, tell us ... how are you enjoying your first month at Democratic Underground?

[xulamaude]

142. What? Where'd you come from? nt

[11 Bravo]

145. Been here for 11 years, but I'll try and remember to ask your permission before posting again.

Care to answer the question?

[xulamaude]

146. How have I been enjoying myself? That one?

It's not the most fun I've ever had.

But then again feminism isn't necessarily fun.

[11 Bravo]

147. Sounds like a tough gig. I guess we all have our cross to bear.

I hope you find some joy here, it's kind of like a second family to many of us.

[xulamaude]

149. Except I don't find it to be a cross to bear

because that would be (I think, given that feminists are not 'allowed' to use religiously themed idioms) a bit of an overstatement.

It's something I do that I wish I didn't have to, say like constantly having to 'ignore' the sexualized stares from men or... what have you... just like women and girls all over the globe.

And that's just the top of it.

[CTyankee]

154. Bravo, this is not your own private property.

You can show some respect for other DUers who have just as much a right to be here as you do.

Please try harder to listen. You can learn if you listen to women. They have something to tell you.

We are not on a playground. This is supposed to be a website for fully functioning adults who are compassionate Democratic humanists. You should remember one thing: Humanists are Feminists and Feminists are Humanists. They are one and the same. You cannot be one without the other.

[NuclearDem]

68. Because when we do provide links, they get hidden or alerted on as call outs

Seriously, go into any one of those "gender war" threads that got over 100 replies and you'll see that misogyny we're talking about. It's easy to find too, it's usually in a subthread me, seabeyond, redqueen, bostonbean, or BainsBane are involved in.

[xulamaude]

78. "It's easy to find too, it's usually in a subthread"

Yep, pretty damn easy.

But some people can't be bothered to do their own research - it's lady work.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

86. the burden usually lies with the one making the argument

its a cheap parlor trick to tell someone else "Find proof I am wrong in my assertion!" And how does one prove a negative that there is no "misognistic" language on DU?

[xulamaude]

90. Cheap parlor trick, eh?

Blah, blah, blah.

Others have covered the ground.

[Comrade Grumpy]

74. No, just stupid, wrongheaded, and suffering from a very blinkered world view.

At least the ones perpetually on exhibit here.

I'm all for equal rights, reproductive rights, and I guess what is called "second wave feminism." I treat the women I know like peers, not an alien species. I don't have problems with women in the real world.

I have no use, however, for whatever it is you want to call this stuff that calls itself feminism here. Or, at least, what a handful of angry and prolific posters call feminism.

And I won't even mention what I think about our trio of ultra-rad self-appointed male feminists. Just think ex-smokers.

That's all.

[xulamaude]

83. So "stupid" is not

a bad thing?

[NuclearDem]

95. No, not at all like ex-smokers.

At least in my case, someone who realized what a misogynist piece of shit he was and didn't want to continue enabling it.

[NaturalHigh]

100. +1

[chervilant]

129. That response was not directed at you,

nor was it intended to imply that you called anyone here a radical feminist. (Well, since you're apparently on the defensive regarding such an implication, have you called anyone on DU a radical feminist?)

[Tien1985]

56. +100

This about sums it up for me too.

[leeroysphitz]

109. Sorry to late-post but I just started reading this thread and wanted to give you a quick note.

"This isn't a time to play team politics" -NuclearDem

Um, yeah. That is what this board is actually for. Maybe you could go be all strident somewhere else?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere.

[NuclearDem]

144. When did supporting Democratic candidates mean tolerating sexism and misogyny among progressives?

How on earth is tolerating rape culture-enabling bullshit going to help Democrats?

Sorry, but it's tough love. The party has to be the one that actually embraces women and fights the repressive gender role nonsense that hurts everybody, men, women, straight, and LGBT.

Turning this into a "no criticism allowed" zone is going to kill the party in the long run.

[LanternWaste]

5. Sometimes misogyny is obvious, yet quite often it's not...

Sometimes misogyny is obvious, yet quite often it's not... masquerading itself as free speech issues and such.

[seabeyond]

8. Know role or shut up. And we hear some of this from some men yet

You are telling us to shut up. Not address with the some here, but we need to address with the some there. Do you not see how funny that is? I do. You have me laughing, I smiling anyway, in urgent care

[Pretzel_Warrior]

13. more like "choose your battles". But I respect your right to hear "misogniny" in virtually anything

a man says to you. I find it interesting that you don't feel the link is worthy of your positive attention and would rather bash me for telling you to shut up which I most certainly did not. You do a bit too much inferring.

But glad you could smile while in urgent care.

[EOTE]

65. You have no idea...

[seabeyond]

80. and you totally rolled over the point i made. we are addressing those issues on fox, HERE

you do not want them to be addressed in our own back yard. instead, dismiss it and say i see it everywhere. wow. condescending and dismissive much.

yet... i am suppose to focus on fox

well

being the progressive ask for my vote, not fox. and being the progressive proclaims to be on my side, not fox.

and being i am amongst these progressives here and not fox

i feel the need to address here. right on.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

91. my participation in my thread is now over

have fun seeing things.

[seabeyond]

93. piece of work. close your eyes, stick fingers in ears sing a song

[xulamaude]

98. What?! Cut and run?! nt

[Capt. Obvious]

19. When someone tells me,

and there you have a heavy cross.
Attacks on allegations that he had offended.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

47. is that a Haiku that doesn't quite fit the parameters?

free association? stream of consciousness? I think you're making sense, though.

[seabeyond]

82. you would be the man following along, dissin me for no rhyme or reason, telling me you take nothing

serious

petty, childish.

[xulamaude]

96. Yet, we're the ones accused of

not sticking to the OP or topic or ideas...

Just all us nasty not-REAL-feminists making it personal.

Yeah, right.

[Capt. Obvious]

97. You position a child, for example,

no more than of this more. It hurts my brain trying to translate a lot of their articles. Help me, but not being able to laugh at most of them.

[xulamaude]

99. This is getting to be utterly cruel.

[OilemFirchen]

127. + one for a learning moment, serious and learning.

I mean it, this time.

[xulamaude]

131. Might as well jump in!! nt

[OilemFirchen]

134. I dipped my toes, thank you.

Now I smell like piss and vinegar.

[NaturalHigh]

79. "Know role or shut up"

Where has anyone on this board ever said that to you? Link? Sounds like? Rhymes with?

Who told you to shut up? Point it out. Please.

I call BS, SB.

[seabeyond]

84. the OP. quit missing with du, loook at fox. but, fox is doing what is happening on the board.

hush... talk about fox

no

[NaturalHigh]

88. You think the OP was telling you to shut up?

Come on now. You can't seriously believe that, can you?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

89. again. creative reading. no one told you to shut up.

least of all me.

[seabeyond]

92. you said focus on fox, not du. it is happening on du. yet... you repeat

focus on fox. and dismisses what happens on du

did you literally tell me to shut up? no

did you tell us to quit focusing on du and look at the REAL issuse (like here is a fake issue) on fox?

personally, i thought it just funny. you do not? fine

[NaturalHigh]

101. "did you literally tell me to shut up? no"

There you go. In other words, it was your interpretation of the OP that offended you.

[xulamaude]

104. You'll notice that many of us

interpreted the OP in exactly the same way.

You'll also note that the OP has 'left the building'.

[NaturalHigh]

108. Yes, I noticed that many of you interpreted it the same way.

I have a different interpretation.

[xulamaude]

111. One in which you were not "offended"

I guess, although you seem to think that we were "offended".

Say, rather than calling bullshit.

[NaturalHigh]

112. No, I was not offended.

Thank you for your kind concern.

[xulamaude]

115. Clearly not, but you labeled our calling

out bullshit as being "offended".

Also, wasn't concerned at all.

[seabeyond]

116. as i clearly stated, and this poster you reply to is very much into what is literally posted,

i thought it funny the hypocrisy of the post.

you know. sittin in a urgent care room, feeling like shit, reading it and a HUGE smile ends up on my mouth by the end of the post, ha ha. smiling all while i typed my response about the ha ha i had from the OP while feeling like shit and waiting for a shot that was a huge ass owie on my ass, lol.

so, since he is such a stickler for the literal word, i have to figure he knew we were bustin up. and to imply otherwise was simply... a game

[xulamaude]

119. But, hey, only the boys

get to bust up, right?! When a woman does it... well that's another story.

What I think SOME men don't get is that sometimes when they do stuff that they think we think is "offensive" we just laugh because it'd be stupid to whine and cry about it.

[seabeyond]

120. nah. i think SOME mens purpose is to creating the hysterical emotional angry woman at all cost. nt

[NaturalHigh]

121. I almost always disagree with your posts, Seabeyond...

but I truly hope your are feeling better after your visit to the urgent care.

[OilemFirchen]

135. I'm likely conflating posters,

but did you get hit by a wind turbine blade, perchance?

At any rate, feel better.

[seabeyond]

136. wtf? what? you men just creep out of the woodwork to throw out insults now?

i have never even seen you in the past, in all these years. and here you are slinging poo

[OilemFirchen]

140. Insult?

That you and another poster have remarkably similar writing "styles" is merely an observation.

[NaturalHigh]

122. Just call em as I see em.

[xulamaude]

124. Pot meet kettle, then.

It is what some of our illustrious 'gender' gentlemen would admonish in the feminists' general direction.

[seabeyond]

126. i am fine thank you. well, i am sick, but fine. got medicine. thanks. but, you call them

as you want to see them. not as they are. then you make the accusation. that would be a lazy style of discourse.

[WinkyDink]

9. Here's misogyny: Sending mothers' sons to die in illegal "wars."

[Pretzel_Warrior]

48. sounds a bit like misanthropy as well

[WinkyDink]

123. Well, there is that, too. Death-cults rule the world.

[Scuba]

10. Dear Fox: Stupid, mean and misogynistic are no ways to go through life.

With a hat-tip to Dean Wormer.

[boston bean]

12. Ok, let's break this down some.

Seems as though you are trying to say that what feminists point out here on DU is NEVER misogyny, but what we see at the link is.

Well, I can tell you that many of the same arguments Rush et al is making have been posted here on DU.

1)I understand the reality that some moms are single moms not by their choice. And I understand that some women believe they can have it all, and that's the crux of the problem. I have to tell you, as a man, where women are told that men have so many more advantages in society, we can't have it all. Women, you can't have it all either. Life is a series of compromises and choices.

- Constantly we are reminded here on DU that issues that concern women, aren't really issues, they are choices and men have it just as bad.

2) When you look at biology, look at the natural world, the roles of a male and female in society, and the other animals, the male typically is the dominant role. The female, it's not antithesis, or it's not competing, it's a complementary role. We as people in a smart society have lost the ability to have complimentary relationships in nuclear families, and it's tearing us apart. [Fox Business, Lou Dobbs Tonight, 5/29/13, via Media Matters]

- Constantly we are told our issues stem not from a culture, but from biology and these problems ought just be accepted cause that is the way it is... nature/biology dictates it.

3) WSJ's Taranto: "Female Sexual Freedom" Has Led To A "War On Men." James Taranto, editor of The Wall Street Journal's editorial page, accused "female sexual freedom" of causing a "war on men" during the June 18 edition of WSJ Live's Opinion Journal Live. [Wall Street Journal, Opinion Journal Live, 6/18/13, via Media Matters]

- Constantly we are reminded that our very presence as feminist a WAR on MEN on DU.

4) furthersRush Limbaugh: Feminism Is Rooted In "Sexual Perversion." On the August 27 edition of The Rush Limbaugh Show, host Limbaugh said that feminism "is based in what most people would classify as sexual perversion," later characterizing feminist leadership as "enraged" and "angry." [Premiere Radio Networks, The Rush Limbaugh Show, 8/27/13, via Media Matters]

- Constantly feminists on DU are reminded that it is the way, the tone, that causes all this strife on DU, that we are ANGRY, that we are damaged goods.

5) Fox Business Host: "Is There Something About The Female Brain That Is A Deterrent" To Women Being Tech Executives? On the November 18 edition of Fox Business' Varney & Co, host Stuart Varney wondered, "Is there something about the female brain that is a deterrent for getting on board with tech?" [Fox Business, Varney & Co, 11/18/13]

- Just try discussing issue with women entering the tech field, and see what happens. Point out the sexism within it and well, you better get your flame suit on.

6) Fox's John Stossel: Women Are Paid Less Than Men Because Women "Have Their Priorities In Order." On Fox & Friends on August 8, Fox Business' John Stossel and co-host Steve Doocy discussed the gender pay gap. While admitting that women are in fact paid 77 cents for each dollar men make, Stossel claimed that the discrepancy is because "we don't work the same jobs." Stossel went on to say "women have their priorities in order. They often choose jobs that are less time-consuming, not so far away, and not as dangerous." He concluded that if a true pay gap existed, the market would have sorted it out. [Fox News, Fox & Friends, 8/3/13, via Media Matters]

- Hear it all the time, men do the tough, dangerous jobs and it's the feminists fault.

7) Fox Host Steve Doocy: "So That Is A Myth, That Men Get Paid More Than Women." During the same Fox & Friends segment, Doocy asked Stossel if the differences between boys and girls are so clear, "why are the feminists still pushing gender equality?" After Stossel argued that there is no true gender pay gap because women work "less time-consuming" jobs, Doocy agreed saying, "So that is a myth, that men get paid more than women." [Fox News, Fox & Friends, 8/3/13, via Media Matters]

- As those in the mens group how they feel about this. They feel it isn't true either.

8) Limbaugh: Men Should Avoid Sexual Harassment Accusation By Asking Women "Will You Please Ask Your Breasts To Stop Staring At My Eyes?" On his radio show, Rush Limbaugh offered his "suggestion" to avoid being accused of sexual harassment: "You walk up to the woman and say, 'Will you please ask your breasts to stop staring at my eyes?'" [Premiere Radio Networks, The Rush Limbaugh Show, 12/9/13]

- Right here on DU it was suggested women ought to wear burqua's if they don't want the harassment men give them on the street.

9) Limbaugh Cracks Up At Notion Of Marital Rape. Rush Limbaugh took material for his November 26 radio program from "satire" blog Diversity Chronicles, choking down laughter while reading a post that mocked the notion of marital rape and explaining, "this is a website that does satire on how white men are blamed for everything." [Premiere Radio Networks, The Rush Limbaugh Show, 11/26/13, via Media Matters]

- Many times we get to hear how just how bad the men have it, when discussing feminist issues. Negating positive feminist discussion and how feminism actually does address issues for men as well.

10) WSJ's Taranto Says Of Alleged Domestic Assault: George Zimmerman Simply "Guilty Of Being Male." After George Zimmerman allegedly threatened his estranged wife withviolence, James Taranto tweeted that Zimmerman was "guilty of being male"

- I don't know about you but I've seen a bunch of comment when serious discussion of feminist issues are being discussed and you get the pat response of "guilty of being male".

We've heard it all hear before as well. If you don't believe, truly you haven't been paying attention. Is every scenario the same as listed above, no, but the responses and behavior and actions of some here, match the same responses you get from those misogynists you recognize in Limbaugh, Erickson, Stossel, etc.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

14. I'll be honest. I'm not going to read through your long "fisking" of my Media Matters article

where you point by point attempt to show how DU is JUST AS BAD AS FOXNEWS re: misogyny. You've clearly missed the point. Just like seabyond, you want to see what isn't there.

When all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[boston bean]

15. ignore, deflect, deny. It's all been said and done here, and feminists when pointing it

out have been crucified.

But hey, if you didn't see them, they didn't happen, right...

[kcr]

18. You're aren't even going to bother to read it, but you're going to comment on it anyway

It's actually a very good post. Well, at least DU isn't Fox News doesn't cut it. The same talking points are spewed here all the time.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

22. unless she has links to back up her assertions about what was said....

then I guess I'll have to believe she's engaged in creative writing. Why can I say that? Because somewhat humorously referencing the recent "gender wars", I posted a Media Matters link pointing out the true vulgarity of misogyny on FoxNews and other conservative circles and that has been directly translated as me "telling feminists to sit down and shut up".

See? They made that up out of whole cloth. Why am I to believe she didn't just see what she wanted to see with other peoples' posts as well unless she can link to them?

Like I said. waste of time.

[kcr]

34. I've seen it, too. Plenty of times.

Anyone who regularly visits DU, particularly if they don't ignore the "gender wars" will have seen those comments. The burqua comment happened recently. It was in the thread that sparked the latest one. The comments about dangerous jobs is a particular favorite of one member here.

[AverageJoe90]

25. Yeah, that seems to be the case, I think.

Hey, sadly, even DU isn't totally perfect, and we probably do have a few people with that kind of negative attitude.....but with that said, this site certainly has *nowhere* near the problems of sites like FreeRepublic, et al.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

28. agree with you there. this too shall pass.

[NaturalHigh]

53. "When all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Word.

[CTyankee]

117. And let me be honest with you, PW. And in a way that could be helpful.

Quite frankly, the tone of your post title comes across in a determinedly antagonist way. For instance, would you title a post about racism to people of color: You Wanna see Racism?! This is Racism!" or a post about homophobia to the LGBT community: "You Wanna see Homophobia? This is homophobia!" Ask yourself, would you do that? If you presented the material by saying something like "Great video on Media Matters on sexism" you'd get a lot of positive feedback, thanking you for sharing.

Further, you compound the problem with the dismissive tone in "I'm not going to read through your long...." and suggests you are simply not going to listen to any ideas you don't agree with. OUCH! What a way to confirm a stereotype you deplore!

Try to listen more to those who take the time to outline the issues they have, esp. ones that go to great lengths to be specific. It doesn't mean you have to agree them or that you can't respond. You most certainly can and phrase it "I can't agree with what you say and here's why."

Also, ASK QUESTIONS, but always in a respectful tone of voice. Nobody is saying you can't. But here's the thing: ask them honestly and not with a sneer. Say things like "Tell me more about why you think such and such..." Or "Can you get me more information on such and such? I am not understanding your argument as phrased."

I think these suggestions will go a long way to establish both your bona fides and a tone of respect for others you do not agree with and set an example.

[redqueen]

17. "Seems as though you are trying to say that what feminists point out here on DU is NEVER misogyny,

but what we see at the link is."

Yep. Speaks volumes.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

20. so my posting an article link is somehow proofe I deny misogynistic things are ever said on DU?

Uh...again. You, Seabyond, and boston bean seem to spend a lot of your time inventing things other people are saying in absence of their actual words saying it.

[redqueen]

23. It's the wording of your title. The implication is as clear as day. nt

[Pretzel_Warrior]

27. clear as day for people who are looking for things to be offended by

mission accomplished.

[boston bean]

32. What makes you think I'm offended.

I'm sad for you for not seeing something so obvious, but I'm not offended by you.

[kcr]

36. If your intent isn't to deny, then why the links or it doesn't happen reply to me upthread? n/t

[Pretzel_Warrior]

50. never said it didn't happen here. I just appreciate discussing actual things said

and not impressionistic arguing. Link for me one of the things said that bothered you and smacked of misognyny and I will gladly render my verdict on it as well.

Sometimes, a link is just a link. Yes, I just went Freud on you. lolol.

[kcr]

54. The time to do that is in the actual threads

Because throwing up "It's not so bad here!" and then claiming that we should have to take the time and go up to dig up links to prove otherwise is nonsense. Anyone who's been following along knows it's there unless they're so biased that they don't' see it. In that case, posting the links won't matter. Anyone who doesn't care enough to follow along to the point they've never seen it wouldn't even be bringing it up in the first place.

[chervilant]

55. So, after a number of disingenuous, defensive responses, you've decided to

misrepresent the title (and intent) of your own OP?

To whit:

in·ter·nec·ine (ntr-nsn, -n, -nsn) adj.
1. Of or relating to struggle within a nation, organization, or group.

2. Mutually destructive; ruinous or fatal to both sides.

3. Characterized by bloodshed or carnage.


[Latin internecnus, destructive, variant of internecvus, from internecre, to slaughter : inter-, intensive pref.; see inter- + nex, nec-, death; see nek-1 in Indo-European roots.]

Word History: When is a mistake not a mistake? In language at least, the answer to this question is "When everyone adopts it," and on rare occasions, "When it's in the dictionary." The word internecine presents a case in point. Today, it usually has the meaning "relating to internal struggle," but in its first recorded use in English, in 1663, it meant "fought to the death." How it got from one sense to another is an interesting story in the history of English. The Latin source of the word, spelled both internecnus and internecvus, meant "fought to the death, murderous." It is a derivative of the verb necre, "to kill." The prefix inter- was here used not in the usual sense "between, mutual" but rather as an intensifier meaning "all the way, to the death." This piece of knowledge was unknown to Samuel Johnson, however, when he was working on his great dictionary in the 18th century. He included internecine in his dictionary but misunderstood the prefix and defined the word as "endeavoring mutual destruction." Johnson was not taken to task for this error. On the contrary, his dictionary was so popular and considered so authoritative that this error became widely adopted as correct usage. The error was further compounded when internecine acquired the sense "relating to internal struggle." This story thus illustrates how dictionaries are often viewed as providing norms and how the ultimate arbiter in language, even for the dictionary itself, is popular usage.

How do you explain that, Pretzel? Do you intend to express a certain camaraderie with those of us who wish to effect a paradigm shift with Feminism?

[boston bean]

26. And what we see at the link is what I often see here in one form or another. nt

[redqueen]

29. Surely not!

Nothing even remotely resembling this has ever been said here, I'm sure!

When you look at biology, look at the natural world, the roles of a male and female in society, and the other animals, the male typically is the dominant role.

[redqueen]

30. Or this, either! Nevah! Nevah, I say!

Fox's John Stossel: Women Are Paid Less Than Men Because Women "Have Their Priorities In Order." On Fox & Friends on August 8, Fox Business' John Stossel and co-host Steve Doocy discussed the gender pay gap. While admitting that women are in fact paid 77 cents for each dollar men make, Stossel claimed that the discrepancy is because "we don't work the same jobs." Stossel went on to say "women have their priorities in order. They often choose jobs that are less time-consuming, not so far away, and not as dangerous."

[redqueen]

31. Or this, either!

Fox Host Steve Doocy: "So That Is A Myth, That Men Get Paid More Than Women." During the same Fox & Friends segment, Doocy asked Stossel if the differences between boys and girls are so clear, "why are the feminists still pushing gender equality?" After Stossel argued that there is no true gender pay gap because women work "less time-consuming" jobs, Doocy agreed saying, "So that is a myth, that men get paid more than women." [Fox News, Fox & Friends, 8/3/13, via Media Matters]

[redqueen]

33. Or this! Here, people claim sexual objectification doesn't even exist! That's totally different!

Limbaugh: "Most Women Actually Are Intrigued By" Sexual Objectification. On the December 13 edition of his radio program, Rush Limbaugh defended street harassment of women, claiming "most women actually are intrigued by" sexual objectification. [Premiere Radio Networks, The Rush Limbaugh Show, 12/13/13]

[redqueen]

35. And nobody here says addressing rape culture is an effort to "criminalize male sexuality"! Ever!

WSJ's Taranto: Efforts To Mitigate Military Sexual Assault Equate To Criminalizing Male Sexuality. In the Wall Street Journal, Taranto claimed that Sen. Claire McCaskill's (D-MO) efforts to address the problem of sexual assault in the military showed "signs of becoming an effort to criminalize male sexuality." [Wall Street Journal, 6/18/13, via Media Matters]

[Pretzel_Warrior]

40. thanks for all the links to people on DU saying these things

oh wait....

[redqueen]

52. Any discussion of objectification is called an effort to "criminalize male sexuality" by some here.

Have you really managed not to notice at least the most obvious of these? Really?

You really haven't noticed the continuing arguments that the pay gap is either small enough so that it doesn't matter, or an outright myth? Really?

Here. I'll do that one. It's super fucking easy.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11144984

Oh wait, that's one's banned. Let me find another (cause it sure as shit isn't hard, so I don't mind doing your legwork).

"The pay gap" is a distorted and manufactured wedge issue that alienates us from MOST voters.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=790672

Notice the careful wording to avoid saying it's a myth. No, it's not a total myth, it's just barely a percentage worth bothering about. Apparently if women earn almost as much as men, that's good enough, so shut up!

And finally this one
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002574941#post17


But seriously, yeah. Not hard to find this shit. So not hard at all. Super easy to not see at all, for some, I guess.

As for the "crminalize male sexuality" one, search for the words. It's not hard. But I have a lot of those who echo the people at your link on ignore, so...

[Pretzel_Warrior]

58. so you've directed me to posts made over a year ago discussing women's pay gap?

and that's misogyny on DU?



Notice they are discussing it. Not name calling. Not diminishing women....they are discussing an issue of our time. Do I agree with them? No. I think all people should be evaluated equally for pay. Women who get pregnant and have babies already lower their own lifetime income earning potential compared to if they didn't have children, so the universal practice of discounting women's pay needs to be continually combated.

As the column from the Guardian I linked points out.....many white middle class women have closed the pay and discrimination gap but many women of color and lower economic means have not.

Still, as terrific and wonderful that debate is--it is not misogyny.

[redqueen]

62. So, as long as they argue that women deserve to be paid less nicely, that's ok?

Gee, where have I heard that 'logic' before?

And yeah, just like they learned to stop squealing like pigs every time rape culture was mentioned, they learned to stop vomiting up rightwing spew about the pay gap as well. Next up, street harassment.

Notice, though, how you chose to just ignore that I was right. They used the exact same arguments that the people at your link did. So did you even read the link before you posted it? Cause earlier you were all THIS IS MISOGYNY! and now you're all THIS ISN'T MISOGYNY HA HA HA

If you actually, truly, give a shit about the facts, feel free to start noticing just how much of the shit that YOU considered misogyny just a short time ago is actually posted here with alarming regularity.

[LanternWaste]

113. Dismissing the very links your requested because they invalidate your premise do not

Dismissing the very links your requested because they invalidate your premise do not in fact, invalidate the existence of the links you requested.




You appear to be acting hysterical and shrill in denying them as such. Irrational, even in your cackling. Maybe you should calm down first... drink a glass of wine or a bubble bath and then slip into something more comfortable; then come back and maybe discuss it more reasonably, rationally and without the all messy emotions your spilling...?

[seabeyond]

118. oh... i am in pain and cannot laugh. and still...

you are making me chuckle as i hold it in.

[hfojvt]

103. the trouble with those links

is that none of them link to anybody making Stossel's argument.

Not that his argument is all that misogynistic anyway.

And yes things are very easy to NOT see on DU. After all, my estimate is that 90% of DUers do NOT read 90% of the posts on DU.

There have been 138,068 posts in just GD in the last 30 days. That's over 4,600 per day. How many does the average participant here read? 500 of them? That can be a lot of reading if they are longish posts, and some might even include links. Even at a 1/2 minute average per post, it takes over 4 hours to read 500 posts.

That's a long, long time to spend on DU in a day. And then there is writing posts which can take multiple minutes.

500 out of 4,600 = 11% Meaning 89% of them are NOT seen.

Much less remembered.

[xulamaude]

105. Pretzel Warrior is no stranger to these types of threads. nt

[kcr]

106. Well, if the OP is one of the 90%

who doesn't read 90% of the posts, then I doubt he'd care enough to even post this. What would be the point? Or, if he were one of the 90% and was genuine in his concern, he could go look for it himself. At any rate it hardly makes sense for someone who reads very little of DU to make the claim it doesn't exist. I can't imagine doing that, going on a message board that I spend very little time on reading a fraction of posts, and then claim that those who spend more time are wrong in their assessment of an issue simply because I don't see it.

[hfojvt]

107. but spending 3 hours in a day is NOT

"spending very little time on"

and reading 500 posts a day, probably makes one think they are seeing quite a bit of DU even if the fact is that they are not, because there is a heck of a lot to see.

[kcr]

110. That still doesn't change my argument

Whether one perceives they see a lot of DU or not doesn't matter. One doesn't even have to spend a whole lot of time on DU if they're following a particular topic of interest. One can choose which threads to click on, they don't just randomly appear on your screen. If it's a subject one cares about on DU, then they've been following it and they wouldn't miss it.

[redqueen]

37. I'm gonna stop cause this is TOO FUCKING EASY!

Not even halfway down the list of examples there

[boston bean]

38. I know... I was like wow... many of the things I've read right here on DU.

[davidn3600]

128. OK....let's look at this a bit...

First off, right wingers saying misogynistic things is as much breaking news is that water is wet. It's not exactly hard to find teabaggers making misogynistic comments. You can't turn on Fox News without hearing something misogynistic, homophobic, or racist.

Next, a person here or elsewhere that is critical about something feminists do or say does not automatically make that person a misogynist nor does it suggest they are against equality. Feminists frequently display a "my way or the highway" attitude about these issues and won't even hear criticisms or alternative viewpoints without going on the offensive. It becomes very off-putting. So ultimately, many people simply bail on the discussion and refer to you as "angry women."

A lot of it though is a failure to communicate. Some people are religious traditionalists and simply won't accept gender equality no matter what because it's part of their religion or whatever. But those people are in a small (although vocal) minority. The vast majority of Americans want gender equality. The vast majority of men will never sexually assault a woman. The vast majority of men will not have a problem with a female boss. The vast majority of men would have no problem voting for a female president. It is not feminists against the world. You have the majority that could be on your side but you constantly push them away with divisive politicking where it seems your main goal is to get people angry at each other.

As bad as feminists think women have it in this country, men also have problems and issues and legitimate concerns that deserve just as much attention as women's issues. To sit here and argue hour after hour over who has it worse and what issues are more important is futile since neither one of us can fully understand what it's like to live in the other's shoes. So the best solution is work together, listen and understand each other, and find ways for both men and women to move forward. I agree men (here on DU and elsewhere) do need to listen more to concerns women have. But feminists also need to listen to men too. Remember, there is only one Earth. We have to learn how to share it.

[boston bean]

133. When I hear the same things coming from people on DU

that right wing misogynists use against feminists, you will have to excuse me for pointing that out.

There is absolutely no failure to communicate from me. I'm pretty straight forward, and really am not rude nor do I name call. I point out what I see is wrong with that particular point of view. If it's a misogynist or sexist POV in my opinion, I have every right to say it. Same thing for racism and homophobia.

Of course everyone has problems. Women have particular issues that stem from a system of oppression that we do care to discuss sometimes without being called man haters for daring to discuss. The discussion is not an automatic put down of men or their issues. However, if they wish to blame feminism for their problems, you will probably see a vociferous back and forth. Feminism addresses mens issues as well as womans issues. In fact, feminists are mens allies in their issues. They focus on the problems from a female centric point of view, but if there was success, ie gender roles loosening, men would see a benefit to many of the problems the patriarchy creates for them as well. The two are not mutually exclusive.

However, most of the time when feminists are having hotly debated threads with some, we are speaking to people who do not believe the patriarchy exists or that women have any real structural limitations placed on them, and that feminism is the reason for their problems.

Hope that helps clear things up for you.

[xulamaude]

137. "men also have problems and issues and legitimate concerns"

I'm sure that they do, however it is far too often that men's concerns happen to show up in threads which women have posted to elucidate their concerns about the state of women world-wide (and are often ridiculed and have our sanity and motives called into question) and only then and there do we hear about these concerns and most often in a way that comes off like men's needs are being ignored or ridiculed.

Now, if you will, name off a few of the problems, issues and legitimate concerns men have.

[seabeyond]

139. hey david, i am all over the mens issues and standing up for men about 90% more than you men.

mens issues? you betcha. lets start with our boys. a passion of mine that i harp on continuously. standing up for our boys, taking care of our boys, loving our boys. so, why dont you? why arent you men all over this issue taking care of our boys? why is you main purpose and other men on attack going after feminists and not standing with us feminists as we speak out for our boys?

why isnt this in the mens group? why are you not having a serious discussion and promoting for people to watch?

it has been in GD and sunk. we have it in the feminist forum and only had some discussion, but a hell of a lot more than GD and certainly more than the mens group. you know, the men standing up for our boys.

look at these boys. look at those faces. listen to what THEY say. why the hell are you and every man not discussing these boys?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125533248

when i see that i hands down bring up boys issues and defend men more than men, only for those men to say i hate men, then it is total hypocrisy.

THIS is what feminists are doing. while you men attack us, we stand for women AND our men.

[xulamaude]

143. No kidding, sea

if there is anybody standing up for boys and young men around here it'd be you.

FFS.

[The Straight Story]

150. "You men" "you betcha" "why aren't men taking care of boys"

No...there is no communication problem there at all.

"why isnt this in the mens group?" Why doesn't HOF have many posts about History? Seems like many are complaining about DU, like a Meta Lite.

"it has been in GD and sunk."

So has this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024222933

" you know, the men standing up for our boys. "

Again with the 'you men'.

BTW what is up with you women and saying things like "THIS is what feminists are doing. while you men attack us, we stand for women AND our men." Do you mean all feminists? Just the ones in HOF? Are you standing up for them here on DU against the men of DU? Does that video not being posted in some men's group mean they don't care or does it mean those folks are already practicing such things and don't need to go over it?

"look at these boys. look at those faces. listen to what THEY say. why the hell are you and every man not discussing these boys? "

'You women' think we aren't discussing such things because you don't see it here. We don't follow your rules that you make up so suddenly we don't care. Kind of like how you women think when we look at a woman we are undressing her and want sex.

You asked in one of your threads: "men... why the hell are YOU not perpetually outraged."

I don't speak for all men, but I am outraged on many issues: economy, wars, spying, killing people with drones, police brutality, treatment of the poor (men, women, and children btw - I try not to separate them out), slave labor, trade relations with countries from Lethoso to china, a slew of rw bs I encounter each week, and so much more.

I fill a 3 hour radio program a week talking about issues, and am adding a new show at the station in February. I cover up to 40 news stories a week that outrage me. Just because I don't pander to your threads and issues does not mean I don't care - I generally feel that people have special interests that they work on, divide and conquer since we all can't be glued to all the issues at once.

I have spent my time calling police departments, public officials, emailing, interviewing, etc and cover as many as I possibly can (and as far as feminists issues I am sure the group the double clicks will have some to say on that next month when I interview them).

It's phrases like some of those above that put people off from having discussions with some people here on the issues.

It is not that folks don't care, they just don't care to have everything be a misogyny mine field followed by an avalanche of accusations against them when they see things in a different light on some details - even when in the broad sense they absolutely agree with the premise.

[seabeyond]

153. An example of going after a feminist rather than talking about the boys. Good job

[NuclearDem]

151. "men also have problems and issues and legitimate concerns"

Of course! Who said we didn't?

I'm tired of my only socially acceptable emotional expression to be toughness and anger, being told to "sack up" and "take it like a man." It's not emotionally or psychologically healthy.

I'm tired of being assumed to be a pervert or a sex-crazed beast, while women are accepted as being restrained and in control.

I'm tired of not being able to take care of my physical appearance or enjoy a musical or romantic comedy for risk of being called "girly" or some homophobic slur.

I'm tired of seeing good fathers lose their children in custody battles because the legal system assumes the mother, by virtue of simply being a woman, is a better caretaker.

And you know who hates that too? Fucking feminists. When feminism beats back the patriarchy, men are freed from it too.

[seabeyond]

155. sing it brother... i stand behind you on all that righteous rant.

[xulamaude]

39. Because only RW Fundie Whacknuts

are misogynists - The Real Misogynists.

Be grateful, women of DU, that you don't have to wear burkas and stay at home unless it is suggested here by DU men that you do!

ETA - and then be grateful that it was liberal misogynists who suggested it.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

60. Nah....

You have to remember, the folks you are addressing aren't political people. Some of them probably even like Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachmann for being "plucky" and find criticism of them "problematic because it's likely rooted in misogyny", of course ignoring the fact that similar idiots like Rand Paul and Ted Cruz are ripped daily here.

[intaglio]

63. By this logic there can be no criticism of the President or Democratic Congress people.

Or of any other person who claims to be a Democrat. Do you really think that this should be the case?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

69. nope. just bringing fresh perspective to what we're really fighting against

and it is not really about the degree to which one is offended by how another looks at a woman. Although that is an interesting topic, there is some serious shit going down regarding women's health issues where women are clearly under attack by Republicans with forced ultrasounds, reduction of abortion options, attempts to repeal Obamacare which provides insurance raites that are gender neutral..on and on and on.

But no. I can see how discussing how the way a particular male on DU responds to a rather opaque and subjective discussion about "male gaze" is far more important and worthy of DEFCON1

[intaglio]

102. Unfortunately your fresh perspective is about maintaining the status quo

There have been many posts where Democratic Underground members have assumed that women have no reason to complain. Those who have complained have been accused of "man hating" or being "oversensitive".

The prime cause of the current blow-up was a remarkably good PSA from India which highlighted how objectionable the gaze of males can be. This opened a can of worms with the usual suspects (who typically are members of the Men's Group) accused the women concerned with misappropriating a term used elsewhere, denying that women on DU might feel threatened by the actions of men and making light of the PSA itself.

There have also been the usual attempts to alert multiple posts of certain female posters and recently comparisons of female posters with the Nazis.

The status quo is not good enough.

[Matariki]

138. thank you.

that was a well written post

[NuclearDem]

148. Alright, you clearly do not get it.

If you think objectification of women and harassment culture aren't as scary or detrimental to women as forced ultrasounds or roll back of abortion rights, then you haven't done your homework on the matter.

Where do you think Republicans get the confidence to run their anti-woman agenda? It's a culture that teaches that women are inferior to men and are meant to be controlled by them. Guy on the street thinks he has the right to get a smile or a positive response from a woman, a frat boy thinks he has the right to have sex with a woman because she dressed a certain way and drank with him, GOP congressman thinks he has the right to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her own body.

It's the same damn thing. One is not less important than the other.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

70. just because there is blatant racism somewhere, doesn't excuse less overt racism on DU

same thing with sexism

[Pretzel_Warrior]

75. agreed. I have asked people to point out what was said specifically

that they viewed as truly misognynistic...so far...just some links to threads about unequal pay for women from over a year ago and then apologies that any links to such misogyny will be viewed as "call outs".

[La Lioness Priyanka]

94. i find denial of sexism to be 'truly misogynistic'.

i think when you dont want to see something, you dont see it.

for instance there are people on DU who will claim there is no racism here either. Ofcourse there is, and if you don't want to see it or acknowledge it, that's your issue. I don't find a huge need to go out of my way to point it out to you.

[redgreenandblue]

125. I'm kind of worried about the circular reasoning this leads to.

If claiming that something isn't misogynistic means that it is (or that the person saying so is), then absence of misogyny becomes a logical impossibility....

[NaturalHigh]

130. I think that's the point.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

156. claiming a prejudice that is well established and experienced by its victims

does not exist, is prejudice

look at other places on the internet where people claim racism does not exist, and you'll see what i mean.

[etherealtruth]

114. Certainly examples of unveiled misogyny

The fact that these "views" were expressed on major "news" and entertainment outlets certainly highlights cultural misogyny. It does not diminish the more subtle forms that permeate society and DU, but this certainly points to the acceptance of blatant sexism by many.

I am not sure what the point of your OP is? Hoping it is that this points to a society that needs to do alot more work in advancing equality for all.

[orpupilofnature57]

152. Marbles in my mouth Limbaugh is a Misanthrope, thank God

he doesn't count .