the biggest problem for women in america

[arely staircase]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

The rape of the entire working class.

[arely staircase]

1. thanks for the rec

I think we miss the forrest for the trees

[NoOneMan]

2. So many social ills stem from disparity

[arely staircase]

4. class inequality is the greatest threat to america

[NoOneMan]

5. I think climate change is the greatest threat to America and the rest of the globe

And its going to make all the other problems, like disparity, bite far harder

But that takes 2nd to me.

[BainsBane]

13. Amazingly, this isn't the 19th century

People can actually think about complex interactions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

Now tell me how class exploitation explains the fact that 1 in 3 women are victims of violence or sexual assault by a partner or family member?

What you really mean to say is that the only issues that matter are those than concern you. Not only do our concerns not matter, you have the nerve to think you have the right to tell others what they should care about. I can't even imagine having the sense of entitlement that I would think others experiences so trivial that I would insist on invalidating them and telling them they should only care about me. That is really what you're saying: My concerns are important; Yours are meaningless. Then there is the fact it's a completely facile point of view. Who cares if 1/3 of American women are beaten and raped. It's not like our lives are worth anything compared to the more important issue of your pocket book.

[El_Johns]

43. People could think about complex interactions in the 19th century; intersectionality is old wine

in new bottles.

[arely staircase]

46. exploitation of workers is not meaningless

Ask the women in garment sweat shops or who lose their jobs because they have a sick child at home and nobody to sit with them. Orbwho have to take a low paid job and try to find child care because there husband has been laid off or for that matter the woman who does the same job as a man for less pay. They are all being raped by the system. Male workers are as well. Men and women both began making progress through the new deal and up through the great society. The powers that be in this country began dismantling those schemes under Reagan and have been raping the American worker ever since # the exeptions being a lessening or even slight reversal under Democratic administrations. The ACA is one example.

Yes I believe the systemic rape of the American working class by the wealthy and their corporations is the biggest problem facing American women today. You disagree. Fine. But someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean anyone is trying to tell you what to think.

[bettyellen]

49. No one said they were, that's ridiculous.

What was said that - this post implies women's issues should be secondary. Women and babies suffer the highest rates of poverty in America, right here, right now. Excuse us if we address some of the inequities and repression that cause this.

[BainsBane]

3. Another man telling me what I'm supposed to care about

How novel.

[arely staircase]

6. care or not

your choice your future.

[theHandpuppet]

14. Silly woman

Don't fret your little mind over the big stuff. Here's a man who will tell you what to think and when to think it. Goodness knows we're just not built to grasp the "big picture".

[Gravitycollapse]

7. Systemic actual rape of women has absolutely nil to do with unfair wages.

[arely staircase]

9. I disagree

The shitting upon of the working class creates poverty and its pathologies.

[Gravitycollapse]

10. Power is the root of all struggle, not money.

Money is simply a proxy.

[arely staircase]

21. and economic power is

THE POWER in America today. As the upper class marginalizes the working class women willbget the shittiest end of the stick. Worker solidairity and demand for fair wages is the ultimate humanist goal.

[Gravitycollapse]

23. Power manifests itself in many ways. To understand that is to be multitalented.

Money is an exceptional means of power but it is far from the only one. And to say money is the answer to all problems is to ignore the fact that money is, for the most part, a means to an end. Of what desire is money born and to what end is it used?

It is born of a desire for power and it is used to obtain said power. The grand schema of the human condition revolves around the need to manipulate many things. As a result of an immense chain of events, there is a severe conflict between socially constructed gender identities which necessarily aligns itself along a dichotomy of dominance and subordination. This at its core has absolutely nothing to do with money as money is not so transcendental.

[arely staircase]

24. it still boils down to control of resourses

That definition has expanded even as traditional natural resources have shrunk. The more power and control for the average working class woman and man is the paramount issue for women because the make up the greatest swath of the economically oppressed - raped by the malafactors of great wealth

[Gravitycollapse]

27. As I stated first, actual rape of women has nothing to do with the pay gap.

It has everything to do with the need to subordinate women.

We could even go further than "power" as the ultimate source of conflict. We could dig into the many reasons why people seek to manipulate the environment and control others. I wrote a lengthy paper on a similar subject this semester. The ultimate source of the issue was pain and suffering which generated fear which then generated a desire to manipulate the environment in such a way to eliminate the pain and suffering.

At almost any cost, human beings need to silence the wringing in their ears. We lash out at others in all sorts of IMMENSELY stupid ways. Over time, these mechanisms snowball into movements and ideologies. One such ideology is woman-hating. How such a thing came to be is as immensely complicated as the mechanisms themselves. And it most certainly cannot be traced back to something as literal as money. To try and make such a connection is a fool's errand.

[arely staircase]

29. and I am talking about the daily rape of every woman and

man who works harder and harder every day to fall farther and farther behind to creditors and banks or bosses who take more and more of their labor through low wages. Women get it the worst. What can you not see about that?

[Gravitycollapse]

35. I understand what you're talking about and your argument is not new to me.

In fact, I hear quite often, mostly from anarchists, that economic oppression is the root of ALL problems. My opinion is that such a way of thinking is too monolithic.

I also take issue, as others have stated, with the idea that THE biggest problem women face is economic. Women face a very specific kind of discrimination that men do not and it's called misogyny. The need to abjectify and subordinate women is rooted in a fear and hatred of women that transcends money. Money may be used to enforce such a hatred but it is not the ultimate issue.

[arely staircase]

38. no argument then

I AM just saying that if working class people get behind women get the worst of it. Yes it is misogyny and male privilege. The only disagreement seems to where to fight the fight. And I believe it it is. Stopping the exploitation of all workers. Yes we can multitask but focusing on the gender roles ia putting cart beforevhorse

[cinnabonbon]

44. I think we can agree

that if we are to stop exploiting workers, then everyone needs to work together to create a system that is fair. What I see, when people bring gender issues into it, isn't to dispute that. They are simply making sure that people know that things aren't equal yet. If we are to create a fair system, we must first acknowledge the faults the old one had.

[xulamaude]

57. "daily rape"

Call it a peeve of mine but when 'wage slavery' or kicking someone's ass in a video game is characterized as "rape" I am offended.

I am offended for myself and for every other person who has ever actually been raped: The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.

The third definition of rape (plunder or pillage) refers to when women were property and where the intent of stealing 'another man's woman' was to literally rape her in an effort to either impregnate her or make her non-valuable to the man from whom she was 'stolen'.

Being a wage slave is NOT anything like "daily rape" unless you are a trafficked person/child.

I am asking as nicely as I can to please not use the word rape in this context.

[arely staircase]

58. met·a·phor

/ˈmetəˌfôr,-fər/
noun
noun: metaphor; plural noun: metaphors
1.
\a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable. "Chevron is raping Ecuador's Rain Forest"

The metaphor is applicable. It is perfectly in context.

[xulamaude]

59. And it's also offensive to victims of actual,

real life rape. Metaphors have their place but I think that this is not one of them.

My guess is that you have not been the direct victim of rape, otherwise you probably would not use the word in this context. Even metaphorically.

[arely staircase]

61. then we simply disagree

it is a perfect metaphor for what corporations and the politicians they buy are doing to American workers.

rape is an act of control and humiliation. keeping workers under control and in their place is precisely what the Koch Brothers have been doing in Wisconsin and other places. it is the general idea behind most of the legislation ALEC writes for the aforementioned bought politicians.

[xulamaude]

63. "rape is an act of control and humiliation"

A sexualized "act of control and humiliation".

Wage 'slavery' does not put one at immediate risk of pregnancy, fistula, cervical cancer, AIDS, syphilis, gonorrhea, etc.

[arely staircase]

64. immediate, no. nor directly

but poverty does lead to poor health conditions and social pathologies such real physical rape. my metaphorical use of the term regards the control and humiliation aspect.

[xulamaude]

65. And as I've said, your "metaphorical" use of the word rape

is offensive to victims of rape.

Beyond that, are you suggesting that rape (the real thing) is caused by poverty?

[arely staircase]

68. Poverty and Sexual Violence

Poverty and Sexual Violence

Research shows an undeniable link between poverty and sexual violence. Sexual violence can jeopardize a person's economic wellbeing, often leading to homelessness, unemployment, interrupted education and health, mental health, and other daily stressors and struggles. In turn, living without one's basic needs met can increase a person's risk for sexual victimization. Perpetrators of sexual violence target individuals who seem vulnerable-whether due to gender, age, race, disability, sexual orientation, immigration status, income, or other reason; they exploit victims and survivors caught in Catch-22 situations created by poverty.

Poverty is among the root causes of sexual violence and has a daily presence in the lives of many victims and survivors. Therefore, the thread of economic advocacy must be woven throughout the fabric of all intervention and prevention efforts. Economic advocacy is a social justice issue and among the philosophical building blocks of the rape crisis movement. Many advocates already engage in economic advocacy-whether they call it that or not-because it has been an ongoing need of victims, survivors, and communities.

Economic advocacy is not a one-size-fits-all endeavor. There is no single model or technique that will work for every person or group. The voices and experiences of victims, survivors, and communities must guide the work every step of the way. Having said that, there are principles and critical questions that can help shape the work.

Statistics:
•Poverty increases people's vulnerabilities to sexual exploitation in the workplace, schools, and in prostitution, sex trafficking, and the drug trade (Jewkes, Sen, Garcia-Moreno, 2002).
•People with the lowest socioeconomic status are at greater risk for violence (Jewkes, Sen, Garcia-Moreno, 2002).
•Individual who lack sufficient economic resources to meet their basic needs may have to barter for essential goods with sex as a way to survive (Jewkes, Sen, Garcia-Moreno, 2002).


http://www.pcar.org/poverty-and-sexual-violence-0

[xulamaude]

69. Yeah, I'm familiar with all of that.

What I asked was: are you suggesting that poverty causes rape?

[arely staircase]

71. "Poverty is among the root causes of sexual violence and has a daily presence in the lives of many

many victims and survivors."

I am sure that is true.

[xulamaude]

73. You are not answering my specific question.

Your OP states that 'wage slavery' is THE biggest issue for women and liken that 'wage slavery' to rape. Then you give stats that say that ""poverty is among the root causes of sexual violence" to which I agree.

But, it says "among the root causes".

My question again: is poverty the cause of rape?

[arely staircase]

75. Is poverty the cause of rape? no

rapists are the cause of rape.

[xulamaude]

76. Thank you.

Now I'd like to address, again, that your usage of the word rape to signify the harms done by 'wage slavery' is offensive to victims of rape who by and large are women and who are more at risk of rape (no matter their income level) than men.

I have asked you to reconsider your usage of the word in this context and I am asking you again.

Would it be unduly difficult for you to change that particular wording in your OP (and your other posts in the thread) to something which is not offensive to rape victims?

[arely staircase]

77. I stand by the metaphor nt

[seabeyond]

78. would be an absolute dismissal of victims of rape. as long as you recognize what you stand by. nt

[arely staircase]

79. IYHO. nt

[seabeyond]

80. of course. yes. nt

[xulamaude]

81. Okay. I guess the rape victims here at DU

and all the others in the world-at-large will see that you have very little concern for the actual "daily rapes" if you choose to use the word rape "metaphorically".

In case you change your mind, "exploitation" seems to be a better word for what you are wanting to convey.

[Dr. Strange]

74. +1

And welcome to DU!

[xulamaude]

83. Thank you. nt

[madinmaryland]

8. Holy shit. Someone actually went there. nt

[Starry Messenger]

11. Frederick Engels "Within the family (man) is the bourgeois and the wife represents the proletariat."

You don't get to speak for women workers and the sexism that the class system creates. You just don't.

[LeftyMom]

12. Here's an idea: Why don't you let women tell you what women's problems are?

I won't tell you what it's like to get hit in the sack and you don't tell me what it's like to live under patriarchy. Deal?

PS If you're trying to concern troll women in a way that isn't completely obvious, try not to use "rape" to mean "something that isn't rape" because oddly enough, women tend to take offense. You know, because of actual rape.

[arely staircase]

15. I do nt

[niyad]

16. the biggest problem for women in america is men telling us what our biggest problem is, and whining

when we suggest that they don't know what the hell they are talking about.

[PeaceNikki]

17. Oh, how I long for "unrec".

[Ohio Joe]

18. And I thought I could focus on more then one thing at a time...

I guess women should just sit down and shut up?

LGBT? Should they also stop looking for equality?

What other issues should be put aside because of your inability to consider more then one issue at a time?

[BainsBane]

19. Yep, that's the message

"Be quiet, dearies. I'll tell you what to worry about."

[arely staircase]

47. quite the contrary. the adjective "most important" implies other problems

And it doesn't imply they aren't important. Only that IMO worker exploitation is the "most" important.

[Ohio Joe]

48. ahhh... But it's woman that need to shut the fuck up...

Why the need to focus your opinion only at what women are doing wrong?

[bettyellen]

51. Thank you- to write this OP about how women's concerns are always secondary ....

And play Pollyanna about it is crap. I'm not going to even get into the deliberate offense intended with the repeated use of the word rape here. It's flamebait.

[arely staircase]

53. your words, not mine

why the need to pretend I said something I didn't?

[Ohio Joe]

55. Your OP was not directed at women?

Really? You think anyone is going to buy that bullshit?

[arely staircase]

56. my op directed at anyone who wishes to read it

and it is about the biggest problem I believe is facing American women today which is the inequality of bargaining power between workers and the wealthy and their corporations. this applies to all works of all genders but hits women even harder.

If you think that is bullshit that is fine.

[Ohio Joe]

60. Yeah... I think it's bullshit

I think the whole innocent act of 'Why... I just gave my opinion' is complete bullshit. I think after all the anti-feminist posts of the last week it does not hold a drop of water.

Edit - I also think that when you go out of your way to point it at women and only women, it's even bigger bullshit.

[arely staircase]

62. Please direct me to one "anti-feminist" post I have written. nt

[Ohio Joe]

66. This one

Why is this directed at women and women only?

I think the purpose is clear.

[arely staircase]

67. As I have said. It is directed at whoever wishes to read it. nt

[Ohio Joe]

70. uh huh...

[Megahurtz]

82. Excuse Me But,

seriously? Women have way more problems in today's workplace than men do. I can personally testify to that. And now you have these Wingers that want to go back to days of the Constitution where women were property. Now they are using Phil Robertson as their role model. Yeah, women have problems alright!

[one_voice]

20. As a woman and a member of the working...

class I see where you were going with this thread and I agree with the point.

Without the middle/working class we're doomed as a country. That includes women. Women are the bread winners of many homes. So I get what you're saying and I agree. I'm not even offended that you used the term 'rape of the working class', because in my opinion it fits.

I think you're going to get push back with your subject line being a definitive 'biggest problem for women' maybe phrased one of the biggest problems would be better. Just my un-solicited .02.

k&r.

[arely staircase]

22. well put nt

[BainsBane]

25. If he had phrased it as about class exploitation as a central problem facing America

He would have gotten universal agreement. He could have even said it was the central problem. But that wasn't the point. The point was to tell women what they think is important just isn't.

[arely staircase]

26. I haven't yold anyone ehat to think

I gave my opinion and you didagree.

Fine

[BainsBane]

28. Why would you say the "biggest problem for women in America"?

When class exploitation is ubiquitous and not gender specific? Your point wasn't to highlight the importance of inequality. If that were your focus, there would have been no need to say "the biggest problem for women."

I wouldn't in a million years dream of declaring what the biggest problem for men, or African Americans, or LBGT Americans, or any other group is. In fact, I don't think I've even claimed to know what the biggest problem for all women is. At the very least, you should recognize there is a level of presumption in that statement that is off putting.

[arely staircase]

30. class exploitation is americas biggest problem

Women get it worse than men. The working class is raped daily.

[one_voice]

32. Wow, you got all that?

his point--was to tell women what they think is important just isn't.

I'm thinking that a shit load of households are headed by women, they're the bread winners--single mothers & married women. Wait--here are some numbers...

Mothers Are the Sole or Primary Provider in Four-in-Ten Households with Children; Public Conflicted about the Growing Trend

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/29/breadwinner-moms/

Now given that, I would think that yes this thread is pretty dang on important to women. He may not have used the right words but *I* think the intent was good and honest.

I'm not getting into a mud slinging match with you over this, I just don't see this as the slight you do. I've never seen this poster be mean spirited toward women so I'm not gonna hang that shingle around their neck.

Hope you enjoy your evening.

[BainsBane]

36. It's just a complete coincidence that it came in the midst of GD threads about rape culture

I've seen enough from him to get the point. The fact he refuses to address the issues of intersectionality, domestic violence or rape does nothing to convince me that his intent is anything other than I described. He didn't post the data you did. He simply declared what the biggest problem facing women is, amid several threads talking about rape. Maybe it's just me, but if I take my basic right to live pretty seriously. It's a basic hierarchy of needs. Without safety, the rest just isn't as important.

[Gravitycollapse]

37. I'm glad you brought up that last part because I was about to say...

There are different levels of need that must be met in order and if one is not met, the one's further along become somewhat less important.

Economic oppression is of little import to someone who faces the constant threat of physical violence. This is why society formed in order to meet the need to stop such a threat. Except, rather "miraculously," as if the rules were written by men, women do not reap the benefit of such social contracts in the same way men do.

But this is probably why so many men attest to the "fact" that economics and money are the root of all trouble because, to men, that is likely the biggest problem. The issue is we can't seem to consider reality outside of the male perspective.

[one_voice]

40. I usually don't wade into those...

threads either. Though, 'in the real world' I spend time with women & men of domestic violence as well as rape victims. I understand the need for safety and the crime of both rape and domestic violence. Having been a victim of both and growing up (for a while) in a home of with domestic violence.

And here I commented and rec'd this one. I thought I knew what the poster was saying. I guess I'm around women so much I knew how many were being crushed by the kick in the nuts to the middle class. That's not to take anything from the men who are hurting, I'm married to one of them. It's just this thread was about the women.

Again, I've not seen anything from this poster to suggest malice or 'shit stirring'.

We all take our basic right to live seriously, and I'm a little confused as to what that has to do with this thread. It's late for me so it could be I'm missing it cuz I'm tired.

[arely staircase]

41. my point is not to stir any shit

Other than the big stinky pile of class oppression that affects women more than men...period

[Megahurtz]

84. Why Isn't Anyone Else Getting This?

WTF?

[seabeyond]

86. while class issue is a big issue and hits us all, we also know within our class there are misogynist

issues. and though class issues has its own cross to bear, that even if that was addressed perfectly, womens roles would still be secondary within that Utopian resolution of class issues.

womens issues are separate for a reason than the whole. jsut as black adn gay issues are. they are not part of the whole, to endure. they are for the individual groups to endure.

fixing the whole is not addressing our individual group grievances.

we can all get appropriate pay and there will still be a societal/culture conditioning restricting women and our rights.

that is what we are addressing

we can fight for us as a whole. and we will continue to fight for our individual rights to be a part of that whole.

[lumberjack_jeff]

31. Coincidentally, it's also the biggest problem for men.

Common ground? Can't have that.

[one_voice]

33. Common ground?...

go sit in the corner for even suggesting that.

[arely staircase]

39. + 1 nt

[seabeyond]

72. or simply a dismissal of womens issues? can we find common gorund. absolutely. do we do it at the

expense of women? no

[Megahurtz]

85. But Not Equally.

Sorry, it just isn't. Not out there in the real world.

[Demo_Chris]

34. Seems the biggest problem is expressing an opinion without bouncing it off HOF first. lol

[El_Johns]

42. K&R

[MH1]

50. Disagree. Biggest problem for WOMEN is reproductive slavery.

In my opinion.

That's not to say that wage slavery isn't a problem ... but I look at Wal-Mart, and Vegas / Atlantic City, and other ridiculous schlock that people spend their money on, and I start to wonder who is enslaving whom, in most cases. (Yes there is a segment for whom that stuff isn't even relevant, but I'm not talking about the extremes... there's a bunch of other issues playing there.)

[bettyellen]

52. Huge problem, in addition to robbing women of self determination

Forced motherhood plunges way too many mothers and children into poverty. To pretend to care about women's economic plight and ignore that is disingenuous.

[arely staircase]

54. the regression of womens' reproductive rights is indeed one of the most important issues in American

IMHO