Why are almost all TV comedy "idiots, buffoons and dumbasses" male?

[Bennyboy]

Jim Ignatowski?

Norton?

Ted Baxter?

Homer Simpson and all the even dumber do0ods in Springfield?

Frank Burns?

Gilligan?

Lumpy, Ralph Malph?

Coach, Woody?

Kelso and Leo?

Tim Taylor?

Mark? (Roseanne)

Frank Baronnne?

Mel Cooley?

Han (the guy who owns the restaurant that everyone works in, all of whom are portrayed as 100 times smarter than he, THE OWNER that everyone works for?)

This year there seems to be a whole bunch of male idiots on TV.... Most of the new comedies have a glut of inept males, and now they are senior males. (Alzheimer's jokes!!!?) On one show (The Millers) THAT IS THE PLOT! Senior guy gets divorced, is an idiot, can't wash his clothes, burns water, and the ex wife and two entire families need to do everything for him. The classic male idiot.

Not something new though, the dumb do0o0od. Even Gracie Allen and George Burns. George played the easily flummoxed male that required Gracie's help in every situation due to his ineptitude that was a direct result of him being male.

Almost every comedy has one, the odd looking male d00o0od that is so stereotypically male. The Lummox or the character that is out of it completely.....Often a beer drinking, chick checking, dumb as box o rocks with single dimension personality that is as deep as bottle cap. Usually a stoner element to them nowadays (Tommy Chong, Kelso, the girl from M&M) as well....

I can think of one show on now that has a dumb chick, Mike and Molly, (and she is a huge stoner) but other than that I am finding it hard to find STUPID women on TV. FOX (not really the) NEWS excluded.

And of course, Betty White's Rose was the benchmark for female idiots. Even then though, Stanley Zbornak, played by Herb Edelman (who made his career playing the buffoon) was portrayed as far dumber than Rose....Roseanne's Mom was a pretty dumb female portrayal as well. (Alzheimer's jokes!)..

Reba had Melissa Peterson who's portrayal of Barbara Jean was classic dumb broad.... But in that show there are two really dumb male portrayals as well.

[MrScorpio]

1. Which is why no one ever takes men seriously, right? nt

[shenmue]

2. Let's go back to the 50s, when men could joke about punching their wives

You know, the Honeymooners.





Get the stick out of your ass. It may help.

[jmowreader]

32. Ralph and Norton were also portrayed as fools

This probably led to Ralph's propensity for wanting to punch his wife in the mouth.

I'm going to add to your list: comic strips. In every comic that has a male-female pair, the female is smart and the male stupid. Peanuts revolved around this joke: Charlie Brown and Linus were either less smart than the female character in today's strip or were bullied into thinking they were.

Then there's Blondie: Dagwood is dumber than every other character in the strip. Same deal with...well, most of them. Even the beloved Calvin and Hobbes fell into this trap: mom was smart, dad a buffoon.

This is why I'm starting to like Stone Soup: with no male characters, there's no opportunity for stupid-man jokes.

[Whisp]

53. If men are portrayed as generally stupid then they can get away with doing stupid things.

Oh you big dumb galoot, you cheated on your wife, you cheated on your taxes or you did something that a woman couldn't get away with quite the same way.

Ah, those boys, feet of clay. Gotta love them and forgive them. Boys will be boys. Sugar and spice marination. Society has this great need for the great divide in so many ways.

[Voice for Peace]

57. that's exactly what I was thinking. Stupid (and usually very physically unfit) becomes the norm.

expect less, accept more. it's ok to be stupid and uninformed, guys.

[jmowreader]

59. Approach this from a different angle

There has been exactly one female lead who started out stupid: Lucille Ball. George and Gracie started out with George stupid.

If you were to create a show right now where the female lead wasn't the smart one you'd have to shoot it on a GoPro and post it on YouTube because no sponsor would buy it, no network would show it and no women's group would fail to protest it. The closest you can get is Zooey's "adorkable" act.

[Atman]

153. Because women do the shopping.

That's why advertisers shy away from shows portraying women as dumb. In most households, outside of big-screen tv's, tires, and tools, it is the woman who makes the purchasing decisions. So advertise the big tv's on sports programs or SciFy channel, and advertise food and home goods on sitcoms and prime time dramas. Nothing sexist about, sorry Outrage Brigade. It's just the way the ad industry works.

[Voice for Peace]

60. also the portrayal of smart attractive women who for some reason love them,

and become a kind of role model: the smart
babe of a wife who stands by her idiotic
husband.

disclaimer, I haven't watched many shows from the
last many many years.

[Whisp]

81. messages are pretty clear...

and the Number One message is:

The woman has to be thin and younger and submissive (even if she does call him down, stand up for herself - it's usually in a comedic sense and sooner or later all the cliches and old wives tales come to the forefront). In the end he usually always wins or lets it Appear that she won (because he can't look like he's weaker than his wife to his buds who are equally stupid and dumb but at least they are Lords over their womens, they have That power in common. nudge nudge wink wink

The guy can be a snorting slob but he owns that something special called Lordship to overcome His shortcomings and it could be that men are treated as dumb overgrown babies so slim beautiful mom can treat him like a kid instead of an adult and let them just play and goof around like boys.

[oberliner]

140. King of Queens falls into that model

Honeymooners would be an earlier example.

[lunamagica]

77. I don't know...IMO Linus was the smartest one. Wise even

while his sister was a mean-spirited big mouthed fool.

In fact, i was noticing that only the boys in the Peanuts gang are likeable. All the girls are mean littte bitches

[caraher]

86. I think Marcie is likable

So is Peppermint Patty.

But I agree that for the most part, the girls in Peanuts tend to be conniving, vain and/or self-sbsorbed.

[lunamagica]

100. Oh, yeah, forgot about them. They were added later, right?

Last edited Tue Dec 31, 2013, 12:45 AM - Edit history (1)

And they are not really part of the gang... but yea, they are likeable

[caraher]

129. I guess I'm just young enough that they were always part of the crew in my mind

Apparently Peppermint Patty first appeared in 1966 and Marcie in 1971, the latter date being about the time I would have started reading comics. But you're right that they are both later additions...

[oberliner]

138. Linus was pretty gullible

The whole Great Pumpkin debacle for example.

He also fell for a lot of made up things that Lucy told him.

[Liberal_in_LA]

72. didnt dezi actually spank lucy in one ep. she was the chikd in the relationship

[3catwoman3]

83. There have, over he years, been...

...plenty of airhead female leads.

I never did like I Love Lucy, or any of the many sequel/spinoff shows. I'm 61, and even as a little girl, I found it offensive if woman had to act stupid in order to be successful. At about age 7, after bedtime prayers, I asked my mom why we couldn't say "Ah-ladies" at the end, instead of "Amen." (Early feminist, I guess)

I didn't like The Honeymooners. I couldn't stand Golden Girls

This is an interesting question. Equal opportunity buffoonery many years later, perhaps?

[Squinch]

110. Many times. It was a recurring bit.

[Vashta Nerada]

95. This thread isn't even about that.

[Squinch]

151. Actually, it isn't unrelated. That was once considered funny. As was Desi spanking Lucy.

Male stock comedy characters and the things that are acceptable from them have changed over the years in ways that are very interesting. And they are usually written by men, and the shows we are discussing are the shows that become popular.

They tell us something about our culture, but what?

[Starry Messenger]

3. Why indeed?

http://www.wga.org/uploadedFiles/who_we_are/HWR09.pdf

"The 2009 Hollywood Writers Report updates an all-too-familiar story about the
challenges faced by diverse writers on the employment and earnings fronts.

The previous report -- released in 2007 by the Writers Guild of America, West
(WGAW) -- found that business-as–usual industry practices resulted in virtually no
progress for women and minority writers. Indeed, these writers had actually gone
backwards in some areas relative to their male and white counterparts since the Guild’s
2005 report. The 2007 report thus called for “rethinking business as usual” in the
industry, which would include establishing “clear goals, reasonable timetables and
effective mechanisms” for diversifying access to writing opportunities.

Despite this clarion call, the present report finds little if any improvement in the
employment and earnings of diverse writers in the Hollywood industry. White males
continue to dominate in both the film and television sectors. Women remain stuck at 28
percent of television employment and 18 percent of film employment. The minority
share of film employment has been frozen at 6 percent since 1999, while the group’s
share of television employment actually declined to 9 percent since the last report.
Although women and minorities closed the earnings gaps with white men in television a
bit, the earnings gaps in film grew."

I guess you'd better ask the dudes who write those characters.

[On the Road]

18. That is a Good Demonstration

that these stereotypes do not drive public attitudes.

So what is the legitimate reason that the stereotypes referenced in the OP exist?

[pipi_k]

39. Maybe it started

as sort of an accidental answer to the John Wayne stereotype that just caught on for some reason.

I dunno. Maybe it's just me, but I sorta like buffoon-y type guys.

Not dumb.

Intelligent, but...all too human, I guess.

Not threatening. Vulnerable.

[liberal_at_heart]

62. exactly. Whether male or female it is their humanity that makes comedy.

All the characters on Big Bang Theory are hilarious. They are intelligent. It is their flaws that make each of them so funny.

[PassingFair]

139. So the male viewers can feel superior to them?

Notice that the fat dullards usually manage to have much younger, hot wives.

So hope is held out to the male viewers.

[Squinch]

145. That's another thing!

The hot wife with the oaf-y husband.

[Bennyboy]

152. Yeah that NEVER Goes the other way......

Like Mike and Molly for example. She is not TV attractive in the normal sense, but her husband is no babe either. If it were the other way (According to Jim for example) she is hot as balls. With a hotter sister. Both of whom have a brother who is the idiot and not very good looking. (even though Andy was not really the idiot in the sense I am talking about)

[Squinch]

154. But they are still written so the rest of us can feel superior to them.

(Yes, I know this is in the realm of "rip this comedy up and squeeze every ounce of humor out of it by taking it way too seriously" but bear with me)

In those with the dopey husband and the hot wife, is it that we are meant to feel superior to the husband, but the hot wife elevates him so we can feel even more superior?

Or is it "he has a hot wife, so there must be something redeeming about him that she sees and we don't?"

And I'm talking about unconscious reactions here, not actual thoughts that run through our heads.

And as I say, I don't watch a lot of TV Sitcoms, so is the wife's part written with a personality, or is she usually just written as a foil to the husband?

[bloom]

176. There is that

I think it probably is more about the effect on men than the idea of making women feel superior - to the 'stupid' men - as some seem to worry about.

I think it is from a privileged position that men can be brought down in a comedic fashion - but not a serious one - not without having a hero (or several heroes) to balance.

[redqueen]

31. When women write the comedy it often goes the other way

[Kali]

88. OMG

that is great! OK one notch off my hate teevee bias!

[redqueen]

102. Isn't she great?

I love that she's got her own show now. I first saw her on Not Going Out.

[Starry Messenger]

93. OMG, I love that.

I just started watching Call The Midwife and didn't know anything else about that actress.

[redqueen]

103. I'm glad you found out more about her!

I'm also glad you mentioned this other show, I've never seen it but I'll be watching for it now.

[Starry Messenger]

106. I think you will appreciate it.

Very feminist and also heartwarming. Two other DU women insisted offsite that I watch it and I binged on it this month on Netflix!

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. Probably a lot of truth in that.

Self deprecation is the basis for some of the best humor.

Female comics (i.e. Roseanne "if the kids are still alive when dad gets home from work, I've done my part&quot included.

[Eleanors38]

156. White males dominate NFL tight end positions.

[Bluenorthwest]

4. First off, it's easy to make a list of women's roles on the dizt list for the same reason men are on

it. In comedy 'idiot' is the word for 'best part'. Men often get to craft the show, and they create the best parts for men. Getting laughs is the game in a comedy, your list includes some of the finest roles any performer has had on television, several sent the actor to long term stardom.
You seem to think that comic performers want to play the straight parts, hand the laughs to someone else in a funky-do quest for dignity or something.
Men get the best parts because men usually get the best parts because men are usually in charge.

[alcibiades_mystery]

7. Thread's over, and the OP utterly destroyed

Well done.

[Bennyboy]

22. I don't think "Ditz" is the equivalent

at least in most cases....Rose Nyland, yeah. And I agree, that all of these roles are incredible. But Lumpy Rutherford is hardly a critical character, and as Cheers proved, neither was Coach. Add Don knotts to the list as well.

I ma really trying to think of other women fools and even the worst of the worst, Mrs Oliver Douglas, on Green Acres was surrounded by even stupider men.

But you know when asking the question, I did not even think of the patriarchal world of entertainment and how it relates to it all.. And female writers, now that I think aobut it, have made that for women. Thinking about designing Women and Alice Ghostly being the twit, although that was not a main role, but a recurring character....

[Bluenorthwest]

43. Don Knotts had the best part, an Emmy every year for Don.

Lisa Douglas was actually the only person whose intelligence matched the culture she found herself in, and that is smarts. It was Oliver who was the buffoon. The joke was indeed on him.
Talking Lumpy Rutherford seems a stretch too far for anyone but Lumpy's Mom. I don't really recall his nuances like I do those of Mr Haskell.
More diverse writing pools is essential, but more important still is having more women and other minorities as 'show runners' executive producers in charge. She who calls the shots gets the last laugh, and the last one is the best one because it comes when depositing that ridiculously large check.

[Bennyboy]

84. Yeah it seems that female writers

Tend to not have the doofus character or make that one female. On the Golden Girls and the Bloodworth shows.....The Suzy Greenburg comedies, there isn't really a dumb character (Seinfeld for example) at all in the show.

[pipi_k]

48. Good point...

George Burns and Gracie Allen. Who got the better part? I like being the funny one, myself.

Another one...Lucy and Ricky.

Lucy was the ditz, but we all loved her for it.

[Shrike47]

5. I think you've got George Burns and Gracie Allen totally wrong.

She was the ditz and he was the straight man in their act.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. Gracie was pure genius. George was not bad himself.

George Burns: "All I had to do was say, 'Gracie, how's your brother?' and she talked for 38 years. And sometimes I didn't even have to remember to say 'Gracie, how's your brother?'"

[pipi_k]

49. Uh, oh...

I posted just above before I read this.

Well...just goes to show...

[Bennyboy]

68. Yeah thinking of another team there...

Who was it around the same time?

[Lost_Count]

6. No one with a decent advocacy group would let it pass...

[Taitertots]

8. Corporate media cares about one thing, keeping your butt glued to your couch

Negative portrayals of a women's intelligence isn't keeping butts glued to chairs.

If you don't like it, I suggest you take the only rational recourse and stop watching corporate media sources.

[FSogol]

10. Your portrayal of George Burns/Gracie Allen's routines is completely wrong.

Gracie was the bubbleheaded female airhead and Allen played the straight-man. On the vaudeville circuit, they started with Gracie as the straight-man, but she got more laughs, so they reversed the roles for radio and later tv.

As for your OP? There were more male comedians in those times. They had to play the silly character. The females in the early days of comedy ususally played airheads (Lucille Ball, Molly (from Fibber MacGee, etc)

[pscot]

11. Men are just better at conspicuous stupidity

And inclined to be proud of it.

[FSogol]

12. Present company included?

[pscot]

14. I certainly don't exempt myself.

As Red Green says. we're all in this together.

[Shankapotomus]

13. Perhaps because men, primarily,

are given most parts as it is?

[former9thward]

28. Guess you don't watch TV much.

Or maybe you have a non-standard definition of "most".

[redqueen]

34. No, research backs this up.

http://www.seejane.org/research/

[former9thward]

40. Well this research disagrees.

It says women have between 41% and 43% of roles. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/23/entertainment/la-et-women-in-tv-20110823

[redqueen]

45. Wow, that's bad.

The study, which the center has been doing since the 1995-96 season, is based on surveying one randomly selected episode from each network series during the season. "Statistically speaking, the randomization of the choice of episodes — across many series — should yield an accurate picture of the season of network shows because biases or idiosyncrasies are minimized," said Martha Lauzen, executive director of the center.

This is particularly amusing?

The number of female characters varied widely by network, ...

GEE IMAGINE THAT


Yeah, no. I'll stick with the better data thanks.

[former9thward]

67. Its not better data.

It just fits what you want it to fit.

[Scootaloo]

127. Wouldn't that leave 59-57% of roles to males? Isn't that "most"?

[laundry_queen]

136. No kidding. That's what I was thinking. nt

[Scootaloo]

137. I'm loving the sound of crickets

After so long in the northwest, I forgot how nice that chirping can be.

[former9thward]

158. Not everyone waits breathlessly by the computer for a reply.

Some of us have a life. In the context of what I was replying to I do not regard something less than 60% as "most". And I doubt most people would either. From that poster you would think almost every role was done by a male. I suppose if it was 51% you would be shouting -- see it is the most!

[Scootaloo]

161. So the goal is whatever arbitrary number happens to support your premise

Literally, one number higher than the number so presented.

So you're using your own completely arbitrary and previously undeclared standards, to claim that the poorly-performed study you have seized upon, says what you want it to say, but not what it actually says in order for your argument to be correct.

You know, it's a whole lot easier to just admit to being wrong, than to invent all this shit in a very poor effort to convince yourself that you're correct.

[former9thward]

163. Every single sentence of yours was arbitrary.

And you accuse me of that.

[mathematic]

167. Maybe you have a non-standard definition of "arbitrary"

Haha, I couldn't resist.

But seriously, English needs a word for the quantity between "most" and "nearly all" because a lot of people use "most" to mean that when it really means "more than any other" (which needs not be anything more than half plus one).

[former9thward]

168. Yes, you are correct.

When I use words I try to look at the context of what I am replying to. So for me I did not think it meant "most" as I and I think most people would apply in that context. Others may differ.

[Shankapotomus]

74. Whatever the stats

If an actor getting a role is a bad thing, how should women feel about the preponderance of actresses getting roles as murdered prostitutes?

[former9thward]

85. Not sure what you mean.

Who should play the role of a murdered prostitute? I don't think someone getting a role is a bad thing. But there is a message being sent by tv shows that men are incompetent fools who go through life being rescued by women. That is not reality in my world.

[mstinamotorcity2]

15. This is not a man I don't think??

Three's a crowd http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/37994/si/Suzanne

[DinahMoeHum]

16. They're 2-legged pigs at heart, and they like it that way.

4-legged pigs are smart animals, in contrast.

[LanternWaste]

17. A rather apt illustration of the divisiveness through disingenuity being discussed, one might think.

A rather apt illustration of the divisiveness through disingenuity being discussed on other threads, one might think.

[Rex]

19. Because that is the stereotype their demographics show men want to see?

Are you seriously being seriously?

[rrneck]

47. Surely you can't be serious. nt

[11 Bravo]

56. He is, and don't call him Shirley. (Hey, somebody had to say it!)

[SummerSnow]

101. aww man, I wanted to say it first...

[Squinch]

113. Yeah. It never seems to work when you pick comedy apart to try and see why

it's funny. And the post about the bumbler being the good role seems sensible to me.

But it is an interesting question. Why do we find that particular thing - the bumbling man - funny? Is it that this is a person we all, men and women, are less threatened by? That we know the situations they are in are ones we would never get into, so we can relax and enjoy?

Your choice of Leslie Nielson is a good one. His stupidity in that movie is a scream. Is that just us all feeling superior?

[Rex]

117. I doubt Chevy Chase fell down the stairs to make journeyman bumbler.

He was just funny when the fell down on SNL. As a kid I laughed at him and the Carol Burnett Show would leave me laying on the floor.

Tim Conway is the master bumbler imo.

[Squinch]

119. Me too. I agree. I just never before wondered why it was funny.

[Rex]

171. Me either, it made me laugh. Therefore it was funny.

nt.

[cheyanne]

20. Why is it funny when a man wears a dress but not when a woman wears trousers?

It's the same reason that lots of comedy is built around men bumbling around.

It's funny because a man is socially of a higher level than a woman; he innately has more power. When a lower-class woman dons mens' clothing it's not funny because there is nothing funny about a lower class person imitating an upper-class person: that's normal human behavior.

But for a man to don the social signifier of a woman is an inversion of human behavior. It's funny because a higher-class person can never really lose their innate power.

A lot of humor is built around is about this inversion: in the middle ages the would be one day a year (I forget which) when the peasants would take the persona of the clergy and nobles. It was considered funny then and it's considered funny today.

Hint: we'll know that we have gender equality when these man inversion jokes are no longer funny.

[pipi_k]

58. I think the main reason

men in dresses is so funny is that they always manage to look so clumsy in them.

But if you've ever seen the movie, "To Wong Foo, Thanks For Everything - Julie Newmar" you would note that is not the case. In fact, Patrick Swayze is downright glorious in some of the dresses he wears. Not an object of ridicule at all.

[bloom]

177. Exactly so. +++

Best reply so far, IMO.

[Capt. Obvious]

21. I have bigger fish to fry

Why is that the husbands are always dumb in household product commercials?

"Duh, I don't know how to run a washing machine to get this ring around the collar out."

WE CAN DO DISHES AND LAUNDRY JUST AS GOOD AS OUR WIVES!

[Rex]

25. Something else - why are there no commercials for chainsaws featuring women!?

Kinda like why have I NEVER seen a commercial about light beer and it is a group of women sitting at a bar or table drinking and having a blast!? Not that I endorse using a chainsaw while drinking beer.

Why is it in milk ads, that they don't talk about titanium?

[Capt. Obvious]

27. Or women drinking crappy beer?

[Rex]

29. Yes! There are like a zillion brands of crappy beer!

Also, why are all the people I see on TVEE - much uglier and less fit then I am?

[jmowreader]

36. Have you seen the Tide Mr. Mom spots?

[Squinch]

114. This is JUST beginning to change. I've seen four or five commercials lately

where men are talking about housekeeping and childcare as people who are involved in housekeeping and childcare.

I bet that picks up steam in the next 5 years. Three years ago, someone posed that same question to me, and we were only able to come up with one commercial EVER, which was about a kid being agitated that the "Santa" cookies being eaten, and the father being able to solve the problem by making more cookies.

[NoOneMan]

23. Phoebe from Friends?

Except the show wasn't really slapstick.

[liberal_at_heart]

66. Melissa McCarthy does a lot of slapstick comedy. She's funny.

[Steerpike]

24. Becouse you have to have a "Fool" in the context of Comedy....

And Men star in Comedies and so they portray the fool. If it were an Adventure then a man would portray the hero.

[NCTraveler]

26. Should have thought this one through a little more.

Another minute or two and you would have been debating yourself on if your thoughts are accurate or inaccurate. Five minutes into the debate you would have given up against yourself and realized your original self was way off base. In other words, you could have figured out this was wrong with a little time.

[Squinch]

115. What do you think is wrong with it? I think it is an interesting question.

[Bennyboy]

141. except for the "gotcha, you dumb son of a bitch" posts

like the one above, this thread has been excellent. Some great responses that has made me look at TV and the whole thing in a new light.

I thought it was a good question... I was watching that Show

The Millers

and asked that question myself and posted it here..... For a while, I was hard pressed to think of a female buffoon at all outside of Rose Nyland.

[Squinch]

143. I had never considered the question before.

It says something about the TV (and movie) comedy watching demographic, but I don't know what it is.

Now I am trying to figure out when the obiquitous "all knowing dad" changed to the buffoon dad. Was Archie Bunker the first one?

And then, as people have pointed out, the TV Ad dad is another level of this entirely. That one, I think, was to make housework seem like very important work to women who, in their bones, knew better. Now ads seems to be focusing on "this gets the job done fastest so you can get on with your life," and some of these are beginning to be aimed at men.

ETA: I am remembering The Donna Reed Show (yes, I am old enough that I watched it in reruns!) In that one, which was quite early, she was the brains of the operation, even though her husband was a successful doctor. Kind of a "dream 50's husband."

[NCTraveler]

159. It is innaccurate at face value.

They left out many women on current shows that are shown in the same light. They see what they want to see, ignoring reality.

[Squinch]

173. Sigh.

[snooper2]

30. It's called catching up...

The same reason on the Gieco commercials it's a white man cutting down the tree branch that falls on the black man's car.

In a couple thousand years we will all be Gliddon SandStone Beach in color so it won't matter then

[sufrommich]

33. Because there are more men than women in

sitcoms? The more your gender is represented,the less chance that one single representation will result in a harmful stereotype.

[Dash87]

35. Because it's a cliche and perceived as funny.

Look at commercials as well - there's always the dumb guy. If there's kids, the kids are always the sensible ones.

[pipi_k]

37. I disagree on a small part

of your list.

Kelso and Leo, specifically.


Well, OK...Kelso was a buffoon.


But Leo...Leo was COOL!

[Coyotl]

38. Why are almost all "idiots, buffoons and dumbasses" male?

[Rex]

52. You know, I read it that way at first.

[Coyotl]

73. I should add, I'm not trying to fuel the gender wars, but

facts are facts

[hughee99]

41. Sexism...

Many of these shows COULD have hired women to play "dumb" roles, but they're a bunch of sexists.

Penny on The Big Bang Theory is a "dumb" role (in some ways). Phoebe on Friends, Lindsey on "Arrested development", and Dee on "It's always Sunny..." (although to be honest, most of the people on AD and It's Always Sunny played "dumb&quot . Perhaps the number of male vs. female fools is just a result of the proportion of male vs. female roles.

On edit: I was being sarcastic with my calls of sexism, but apparently others below are making the same claim without the sarcasm.

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. Don't be hating on Reverend Jim.

WWRJD

[bonzaga]

44. I don't know about you...

But I don't think I'd have watched a show meant to be funny if, say, Tim Taylor wasn't a bumbling buffoon. And how funny would Frank Barone have been if he was some kind of serious, grandfatherly, intellectual type? Am I missing something here? Isn't the point of these shows to be funny? And it's not like Marie, Frank's wife, was some rocket scientist.

[bettyellen]

46. You're right, women should be getting these roles too! Tina Fey had a lot to say about

What a bunch of sexist idiots producers and casting directors in Hollywood are. She had a really hard time at SNL for a while too. Damned shame- all that wasted talent.

[Bennyboy]

169. BUT, on 30 Rock the Buffoon was Kenneth...

So even Tina Fey went with the stereotype...

Of course Kenneth made the buffoon the smartest guy (like Rose Nyland did) in the show, but still the bumpkin was his role there....

[bettyellen]

178. I think Alec Baldwin is a Buffon too... And Jane K...

They're all pretty bent on that show.
More funny women that you usually see, too.

[Brigid]

50. 'Tis not always thus.

I offer into evidence Dan Conner on "Roseanne," Cliff Huxtable on "The Cosby Show," and James Evans on "Good Times."

[Bennyboy]

97. The fool cannot carry a show....

It is always a character in a show...

[rrneck]

51. I think this discussion can't be had

without a tally of dumb blondes in the media.

[Jesus Malverde]

54. Interrupt this thread to bring you this ad...From the height of the housing bubble

When people were buying way more than they could afford...

[el_bryanto]

61. I think this has been successfully taken apart- but what about slapstick?

Obviously there have been some great female slapstick artists - Lucille Ball for example, but it seems to have petered out - are people as comfortable seeing women knocking themselves around?

Bryant

[Squinch]

150. I don't watch a lot of sitcom TV, but my impression is that male slapstick has petered out too.

Is that the case?

Which would be another interesting question: is that form of humor just fading away? If so, what's that about?

[JustAnotherGen]

63. Turn off network tv

You want a great sitcom?

It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia on FX. Sweet Dee, Artemis, and the Waitress are all just as idiotic and politically incorrect as the male characters. It's one big " The Gang".

[LWolf]

64. Those are the choice parts in a comedy.

More men than women are writing them and handing them out. Whose careers go further? I don't really know, but I'm thinking that some of those guys in your list were pretty successful AFTER the stoopid character. Kelso, for example. I've seen more of him than any of the LESS stupid 70s show characters.

Also, in my admittedly limited experience, more men seem to enjoy that kind of comedy than women. I'm thinking back to high school, when Saturday night was not complete without a couple of the guys rolling around on the floor, lighting their farts, and laughing hysterically. I'm thinking about my middle school students. You know, none of the girls ever get to school and can't wait to tell me how they crashed the tractor, blew up the barn, sat up in a tree and peed on their brothers as they passed, unknowing, underneath, took the new guy snipe hunting, rode their bicycle off the roof, etc., etc., etc...

[Douglas Carpenter]

65. Obviously it is an effort by the liberal Hollywood elites to emasculate the American male in full

full view of their children undermining all respect for authority while creating a generation of people who never knew what it meant to admire the father figure. The purpose of this of course which is transparent to all but completely brainwashed and the willfully blind is the undermining of the patriarchy - the foundation of all our proud national life, our family life as well as our religious and moral traditions. It will only take one or two generations of this brainwashing to manufacture a society completely dominated by pathetic psychological eunuchs who grovel at the feet of their Socialist-Islamist masters. This is the true agenda behind the smirking Lisa Simpson and the cowed, beaten and defeated common working man known as Homer.

They love our milk and honey while they talk about another way of living - running down a way of life fighting men fought and died to keep -- Merle Haggard.

[Squinch]

118. Ah! Of course! A conspiracy! How did we miss that?

And yeah. Tim Taylor totally undermined my religious and moral traditions. How could he not?

[nolabear]

69. Oldest rule of comedy: Punch up.

It's a sure indication of where the power lies. It's what Twelfth Night is all about. Making fun of the oppressed is playing to actual pain. Making fun of the powerful is not likely to damage already struggling persons. And it relieves frustration.

This isn't just my opinion. It's a thing.

[Liberal_in_LA]

71. yes, same reason it's considered hilarious for males to dress as females but not the reverse

Higher status person (male) mocking the behavior of lower status(female) is considered hilarious

[nolabear]

90. I don't think that's where the humor lies. It's not mocking, it's overblown caricature.

At least, if it's successful. Anything can be done badly.

I suppose response is in the mind of the beholder, but I've never thought the joke there was on the women, but on the men trying, and humorously failing, to do what women do easily. Good, elegant drag is beautiful and remarkable. Bad drag is funny because it's bad, not because it's drag per se.

As for women dressing like men, it exists in comedy but men don't have the liberty to be varied and flamboyant and to work with all the great props that women do.

[hughee99]

92. I never understood why that, in itself, is considered funny. n/t

[treestar]

112. This is it

IMO that explains it.

[Squinch]

122. I think so too.

[unblock]

70. hey, jim ignatowski went to harvard!

[mathematic]

75. TV Tropes has the answer

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BumblingDad

"he's a deliberate subversion of the Standard '50s Father. Now so ubiquitous the older trope is nearly forgotten."

" Back in the day, fathers were assumed to be wise and in charge, and the Bumbling Dad was something fresh and unusual. Today, sitcoms have made Bumbling Dad an Undead Horse Trope, and consistently competent fathers are a comparative rarity. "

[Blue_In_AK]

94. Yes, I remember the sit-com dads from my youth...

Father Knows Best, Donna Reed, Leave it to Beaver -- they were all so serious and unfunny. The moms weren't very funny either. Back then it was the kids who were silly.

[gaspee]

76. Maybe you could ask the writers

Who are overwhelmingly male - as are producers, directors and casting directors.

[Happyhippychick]

78. Superman? Harry Potter? Tom Sawyer? Sherlock Holmes? King Arthur? Jesus? Bugs Bunny?

We could play thus ridiculous game all day long, couldn't we?

[Shandris]

79. I'm not sure I'm reading the responses to this thread right...

...but a common refrain seems to be "Because its men writing them and they get the best parts."

So...with that in mind...what you're saying is that we need more dumb and bumbling women portrayed on television (because, again, those are the best parts)? Is this -really- what I'm hearing?

That sounds like a misogynist's wet dream imo.

[Squinch]

120. What is your explanation for it?

[Shandris]

125. I don't have one.

I was just saying that something seems off with that one, because it sounds more like a misogynist's wet dream than a solution. Maybe I'm wrong, but my initial impression makes that answer sound off.

I'm more inclined to go with the 'old trope/subversion of the knowing father' answer from TV Tropes. They're -usually- pretty decently accurate, at least in my experience.

[Squinch]

132. I thought the question posed was a very interesting one.

I thought the "writers are predominantly male and the buffoon role in a comedy is the one that gets the most laughs" is a plausible explanation. I also thought the "punch up" explanation seemed to make sense, and it's consistent with the all knowing father trope. The all knowing father trope, in that case, would be what is being "punched."

It would be great to be able to hear everyone's opinions without this thread degenerating into one of those where people walk away thinking "there go the feminists making ridiculous claims" when nothing of the sort has happened.

[Shandris]

175. I agree.

It is an interesting question, although it is -often- (not always, naturally) used as a lead-in to what you're talking about at the end of your post. I hope I didn't give off the impression that I thought responses were from crazy feminists though, because it wasn't anywhere near what I was saying. Also, I think the Punch Up explanation seems to make good sense in this, and most, instances, although I don't think that explanation is valid as an overall rule (a fact easily demonstrable imo in the amount of so-called 'tranny jokes' that are still pervasive). Or perhaps that's just one of the primary exceptions to an overall rule. I guess that's sort of a glass-half-full/empty argument there, though.

[etherealtruth]

80. Simple answer ...sexism is rampant especially on televison sitcoms

There are overall biased portrayals of both sexes (in sitcoms neither are flattering) ... I guess this particular portrayal is considered funny (to some)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

82. Because it sells a lot of beer and cheetos to the "idiots, buffoons and dumbasses" that watch them.

[Warpy]

87. All sitcoms use basically the same formula of Lummox, clueless ingenue, long suffering Mama

All sitcoms deal with stereotypes, I suppose that keeps people from seeing them as human so they can laugh at them.

I've seen few that were actually funny. Most were simply mind numbing fare that sets people up to watch the commercials.

[doc03]

89. Because there is a much larger feild of idiots, buffoons and

dumbasses to draw from. Doesn't it seem like their are more male Teahadists than females? Obviously we are not that smart
on average.

[WinkyDink]

91. Humor? (P.S. You've never heard of the Ditzy Blonde? Or the Unattractive Secretary? The Nasty

Mother-In-Law? ETC.)

[Nye Bevan]

96. Mike Brady from "The Brady Bunch" is a counterexample.

A calm, level-headed, lesson-teaching, father figure.

[Squinch]

121. And he was seriously un-funny.

[Nye Bevan]

124. except in the movie:

[Squinch]

133. True. And HE had a truly great wardrobe. And hair.

[oberliner]

142. Until they got their variety show

Then he turned into a complete buffoon.

[Zorra]

98. This goes all the way back to the stone age.

[maced666]

99. Substitute 'black people' for men in many of these responses -

And I would hope most would see how ridiculous it is to broad brush individuals by sex.
Or race.
Or color.
Or religion.
Or....

[Squinch]

123. I don't think anyone is broadbrushing. I think the OP is asking why this situation exists, and

why do we find this funny?

[Bennyboy]

144. I know why I find it funny.....

Let's face it, the boob, the moron, the buffoon is the funniest character on most shows. Try to think of a favorite comedy that does not feature a male complete idiot and you would be very hard pressed.

Seinfeld comes to mind. Frasier. I think Big Bang Theory started with the premise that Penny was going to assume that role, but her character has grown out of that totally....(it is pretty hard to make a multiple PHD phycisist look like an idiot, so there is no idiot on that show)

The new show, MOM features a male sort of idiot in the ex husband, but he is not the stupidest male in the newer shows so not sure if he counts.. .(that show is funny, Allison Janney is so goooood)

[Squinch]

146. I haven't seen MOM but I do love Allison Janney.

And as to why it's funny, I agree, but what is the reason this particular character appeals to all of us? The appeal is kind of universal, and it is almost always male.

[Bennyboy]

155. You gotta watch it.

She is so funny as the former, and soon to be again, drug addled Mom of a former drug addled single Mom with a clueless ex husband and a very hot, yet pregnant, sixteen year old daughter, who has substituted drugs and alcohol with sex.

I like the cast a lot.

[PeteSelman]

104. Penny on Big Bang is the dumb blonde.

All the guys on there are/were socially awkward and inept but they're smart as hell.

I find that I don't care. Stupid people are funny and the big dopey guy is funnier than the dopey girl.

My favorite dopey guy is Ralph Kramden.

[Bennyboy]

147. Well you know, I think Penny

Was supposed to play that in the beginning, but her character has grown so much and she outwits Sheldon all the time. Now she is good for the slut, drinking, drugs jokes, but she has never really been the buffoon as say Jethro Bodine.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

180. But Penny's social awareness makes her the "straight man" of the show

The joke is the smart guys, especially Sheldon, are so clueless as to how to interact with "normal people", they basically look stupid/ arrogant most of the time.

[WillowTree]

105. Rose was an innocent, not an idiot. There's a difference.

Too bad you apparently don't know what that difference is.

[Romulox]

148. Sophia and Dorothy called her "idiot" all the time on the show.

Sophia Petrillo: Rose, let me gve you a few lessons in economics. Lesson one: quit being an idiot.

Rose Nylund: Ok.

Sophia Petrillo: Lesson number two: the law of supply and demand. Before you supply the sandwihes, you demand the money.

Rose Nylund: Ok.

Sophia Petrillo: Lesson number three: quit being an idiot.

Rose Nylund: Whatever happened to her?

Dorothy Petrillo Zbornak: [sarcastically] She colonized life on Venus. Rose, she was 94 when I was 6. She died, you idiot!

http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0027610/quotes

[notadmblnd]

107. I don't know, it's the one category where men truly are superior to women?

Seriously though.. There was Lucy, Gracie, Mrs. Thurstan Howel III. Oh and how about Chrissy from "Three's company? Lets not forget Edith from "All in the Family", Mrs Cunningham from "Happy Days", then there's Olive Oyle from Popeye... I'm sure I could go on.


I think that if you think about it a little more, you will discover that through the course of TV history, that the score of what gender is portray as stupid, pretty much evens out to a tie.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

182. I think Edith trumped Archie on AITF

She was somewhat dim, true, she almost had to be to put up with a major league bigot AND dummy like Archie. But she was portrayed as a caring loving person. I think she was smarter than Archie.

I don't remember Happy Days that much, but I never got the impression Mrs Cunningham was dumb, just that Mr Cunningham wasn't an idiot.

[kwassa]

108. Not on SNL, and various spinoffs like 30 Rock and Parks and Recreation

The women look like idiots, too.

[LeftyMom]

109. I don't know. Why is almost all of the congress male? When can we get a lady president?

Tell you what, let's fix the economic and political injustices visited on women, and then we can all bug the male-dominated TV industry about why they insist on writing stupid sitcoms with the same half dozen stock characters, because it's certainly not because they're lazy and people watch that crap, it's because zomg misandry.

[bloom]

179. "Art" and social constructs can lead the way

Show people how things could be, more people might catch on. (I do agree with the person upthread who mentioned it doesn't make for comedy to have the under-privileged act under-privileged - the same as it does for the dominant gender).

I think we can bug the male-dominated TV industry AND be fixing the economic and political injustices. Perhaps get a Title something or other to have equal media time, and equal representation.

[Jamaal510]

116. This is a reason why I like Bob's Burgers and

King of the Hill. Both of these shows offer something fresh and unique for their time because the fathers (Bob and Hank) are actually the ones with the most common sense in the family. In contrast, many of today's shows follow the Homer Simpson Model, whether it's South Park with Stan's dad Randy Marsh, or Peter from Family Guy. I like all of those shows, but it does get overdone and excessively silly after a while with them all acting like drunken nuts.

[VanillaRhapsody]

126. Seriously? Men are the "real victims"?

GMAFB!

[Egalitarian Thug]

128. Type casting.

An unfortunately common trait amply demonstrated by these painfully transparent threads.

[sendero]

130. Don't forget..

.... the endless stream of wimpy, useless cowering husbands in commercials. If I were one of those guys I'd slit my own throat. Fortunately, they are mostly a stereotype to sell products to, hmmmm, women.

[Iggo]

131. 'Cause us dudes just can't catch a break.

The deck is stacked against us.

[oberliner]

134. The "male idiot" character seems even more prevelant today

Seems to be the thing to do to portray men as humorously clueless. Have a look, for example, at any of Seth MacFarlane's shows.

[Squinch]

135. And Will Ferrell has made a career of it too.

[mathematic]

164. I think that's only true of Family Guy

Stan from American Dad isn't an idiot, he's blinded by ideology. He's usually portrayed as competent and stories are driven by him becoming less clueless as his "real life" contradicts his ideology (like when the gay neighbors moved in). If you're including smaller, supporting characters, the stoner boyfriend is an idiot but his purpose is as a foil to Stan.

Cleveland from The Cleveland Show is a bit of a mixed bag. I don't think the writers on that show ever settled on any characterization for any of the characters. Cleveland is capable, reasonable, and "boring". The comedy was supposed to come from his family not respecting him because of his dullness. It didn't. So the writers tried all sorts of things to make The Cleveland Show funny. They pretty much cycled through every sitcom trope. None of it worked.

This was just a bit of an aside. I do agree with you that this type of character has been increasing in its acceptability since at least the 90s. So much so that established characterizations will occasionally get suspended to do an easy/lazy story where "dad is an idiot". Hey, 20+ episodes a year can be tough to fill.

[oberliner]

172. Maybe so

Stan and Cleveland seem pretty dumb to me, but I haven't watched those shows as much. Simpsons is clearly a good model, though - maybe even The Flintstones.

[B Calm]

149. Molly on Mike & Molly is no Einstein! 2 Broke Girls

is another!

[Eleanors38]

157. It's safe.

[erpowers]

160. Penny On "Big Bang Theory"

The character of Penny on the show "Big Brain Theory" is extremely stupid. In addition, she is surrounded by much smarter men.

Currently, and in the past there have been ample examples of stupid women on the big and small screen. There were the girls from "Clueless" and the lead character in the "Legally Blond" series. I do not think most people would say Julia Louis-Dryfuss' character in "The New Adventures Of Old Christine" was very bright. In addition, her(Dryfuss) character on Veep is/was stupid. The show "Suburatory" which will soon be returning to ABC features one to two stupid women. The show "Modern Family" features at least one stupid woman.

You pointed out that the men on Reba were stupid. However, I do believe the daughter on Reba was also stupid. So on that show there were two stupid men and two stupid women.

Stupid women are not hard to find on TV. Just about every show has at least one stupid woman.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

181. Penny is just not book smart....

....yet she has a zillion times more common sense than any of the guys with maybe the exception of Leonard. The joke of the show is that Sheldon thinks he's so superior to her, yet he's completely unable to function without either her or Leonard.

[Bennyboy]

162. Jethro Bodine.....

How could I forget the cipherin double knot agent.......

[Tom Ripley]

165. Because most TV protagonists are male?

[FatBuddy]

166. like everything else in Uhhhhmerican comedy

it probably has something originally to do with Vaudeville or the Borscht Belt/Catskills thing.

[Dash87]

170. This trope is also a stupid gimmick to explain the product or how well it works. It's like 'amnesia'

in story telling. Normal situation:

Dad: Durrrrr uhhhhhh I don't know how to do anything, but I have this macaroni and... erm... cheese here! Duhhhhh

Kid or Bossy Mom: Dad (or dumbass I married) put the cheese in the macaroni and it'll taste great

Dad: Duhhhh oh yeah! You make mac and cheese and me go smash rocks together. Durrrrr!


You would think they would find a better mechanic to explain their products, but they all use this cliche because it's easy. It's like storytellers using amnesia to tell the plot to the audience. Sure, it's easy to do, but it's also lazy and cliche as can be.

These commercials also often use the "Men can't keep house" cliche. There's no reason to, but they do it anyway because they think that it'll appeal to women. "See! Look at that stupid man trying to do YOUR job! Dur hur hur!" Not insulting at all, no really. It's not like people will be offended by either being called too stupid to do housework as a man or told that it's only your job to do housework if you're a woman.

[Orsino]

174. Because Misrule. n/t