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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNYT Editorial Board Calls For CLEMENCY For Snowden
The New York Times called on President Barack Obama to offer former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden some sort of plea or clemency deal allowing him to return to the United States in an editorial published Wednesday. Since June, documents leaked by Snowden to journalists have disclosed a flood of information about the NSA's surveillance programs and revealed the extent of the agency's intelligence-gathering activities both at home and abroad. The disclosures have prompted debate about the legality of the programs, and last month one federal judge ruled that the NSA's phone records collection program was likely unconstitutional.
From the editorial:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/02/opinion/edward-snowden-whistle-blower.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=1&
Obama has repeatedly said that Snowden should return home to face charges of espionage and theft of government property, as well as suggested there were avenues available for the fugitive contractor to express his concerns about the extent of NSA surveillance other than leaking information to the press.
But the newspaper's editorial board argued that Snowden "was clearly justified in believing that the only way to blow the whistle on this kind of intelligence-gathering was to expose it to the public and let the resulting furor do the work his superiors would not."
cont'
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/nyt_editorial_snowden_clemency
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FarPoint
(14,765 posts)He needs to face charges and go through the legal process. To "hit-n-run" diminishes his goal...if it was an honest goal.
Titonwan
(785 posts)But I never really expected much from this fake after he caved on the new FISA law. Then he fills his cabinets with corporatists and gave Hillary the SOS job to keep her from wrecking the DNC.
Edward Snowden exposed just how very little Obama is from Bush when it comes to surveillance and secrecy (Actually Obama is worse in many aspects).
The NSA learned a valuable lesson from J. Edgar and I wouldn't be surprised in the least that they have dirt on most everyone in Washington. And will use it (remember Eliot Spitzer? He was making inroads to the corruption of the banks and Wall St. and then he's exposed as a whoremonger [Coincidence? Methinks not).
Claptrap and Alexander need the steel bracelets- not Mr. Snowden.
FarPoint
(14,765 posts)I don't disagree with you on the corporatist. Obama has chosen poorly! Only regarding Snowden do we disagree...
Titonwan
(785 posts)Yes, he did and does. Continually. Backing the banks, indefinite detention, assassination of U.S. citizens without 'due process', refusal to indict Cheney et al for war crimes, caved on FISA filibuster, invaded Libya for oil interests, defends a lying to congress NIA official (Crapper), pushing a terrible trade agreement (TPPP- just much worse than Slick Willy's NAFTA scam)...
Yeah, I'd say yer right.
And I'm supposed to believe this weasel over Ed? Not happenin'.
FarPoint
(14,765 posts)You have unrealistic expectations. You address issues of concern...change is always painstaking.
Titonwan
(785 posts)I served in Viet Nam and then came home and got bloodier protesting in the streets. I know what 'painstaking' is. Now? It's becoming quite clear that protesting is getting less and less effective. This police state is getting worse and I don't see a peaceable way to change that.
The 1st, 4th and 5th Amendments are being shredded and I have 'unrealistic expectations'? Gee, what country is this, anyway?
G_j
(40,569 posts)it appears that on this, the NYT editorial board is to the left of many here .. who would have thunk it?
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023285237
ACLU: Snowden is a whistleblower.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023391996
DU Poll: Snowden more Daniel Ellsberg or Benedict Arnold?http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023138437
The reliable dispensers of corporate talking points post smears well out of proportion to their presence in this community...by design.
States that build surveillance machines also build propaganda machines.
G_j
(40,569 posts)
iandhr
(6,852 posts)I think its a little more complicated then that,
The NY Times editorial is nuanced.
"It is time for the United States to offer Mr. Snowden a plea bargain or some form of clemency that would allow him to return home, face at least substantially reduced punishment in light of his role as a whistle-blower."
Clemency and "reduced punishment" is far different a pardon.
Titonwan
(785 posts)BTW, you are a great contributor. If I could 'fan' you, I would.
freedom fighter jh
(1,784 posts)Seems to me it's on rights issues that left and right agree most often. And the outrage that Snowden's revelations sparked is mostly about violation of Fourth Amendment rights. I've not heard about where Snowden considers himself to be politically -- whether left or right.
G_j
(40,569 posts)really just going on what my lefty friends feel about it. They all support Snowden.
Of course, there are others who do also.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)This is an issue for all Americans.
Titonwan
(785 posts)I give two hot shits about what his affiliation is- he's done a great service to this country. I lurk constantly at red sites and there's plenty of people there that see this as an affront to their privacy/freedom. True, I don't agree with their religious and economic philosophies, but that doesn't mean I can't agree with their civil rights concerns.
Edward Snowden is truly a patriot in my book. History will agree.
freedom fighter jh
(1,784 posts)I don't care what his political affiliation is either. I agree that Snowden has done a great service to this country.
My point is that the value of his deeds does not depend on his political affiliation.
Titonwan
(785 posts)This is WAAAAY above political parties. This is a concern all Americans should heed.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)mother earth
(6,002 posts)with the downfall of whistleblower protection.
We cannot abandon every principle of our Constitution & still make claims to democracy.
911 paved the way for an almost total upheaval of all rights once fought so dearly for, the same we so eagerly give up in the name of anti-terrorism, which is really the terrorism against ourselves is it not?
Where exactly are the lines of democracy vs. fascism to be drawn? When does surveillance become simply tyranny, the gray area is widening and some here defend that growing scope.
When exactly are we safe from terrorism, when the last bit of freedom has died?
Have we learned nothing from the past?
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]
mother earth
(6,002 posts)Obama on Friday: "I signed an executive order well before Mr. Snowden leaked this information that provided whistleblower protection to the intelligence community for the first time."
True -- he signed an executive order in October of 2012 that protects intelligence community whistleblowers. The Intelligence community is exempted from other whistleblower protections he signed into law in 2012.
Read the executive order
But that protection does not appear to do much for someone like Snowden, who wanted to blow the whistle to public on a classified program.
The order states that classified information should be protected. It also adjudicates through the intelligence committee, which is already complicit and agrees with the program that he disclosed.
In other words, Snowden would have been protected in blowing the whistle up to the director of National Intelligence. Currently, that's James Clapper, who has had to apologize for misleading Congress about the existence of the programs.
In any case, he already knew about the programs. So that does seem like a bit of a Catch-22. But it is part of a larger debate about whether Americans trust their government to have secret programs. If so, they have to trust the branches of government to do the checking and balancing.
Intel chief admits 'erroneous statements' to Congress
http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/12/politics/obama-snowden-whistleblower/index.html
randome
(34,845 posts)All so he could 'reveal' to us a legal warrant pertaining to third-party business records. Oh, and the fact that the NSA spies on other countries.
Congress is the only institution that can hold Clapper accountable and they don't seem to care so that's a moot point. Clapper was sworn not to answer the question he was asked in public and he fudged and answered it poorly. Big deal.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]
mother earth
(6,002 posts)holding the intelligence community accountable. The safeguard of the "whistleblower protection" you wave in argument is compromised, severely. The legal way is corrupt in other words. This is why all of us are wary, and understand why Snowden acted as he did.
If our gov't functioned as intended we might not be even having this debate.
The petulance is in believing that our gov't is acting on behalf of any whistleblower at this point.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]
mother earth
(6,002 posts)written into law are up for grabs, there is no longer law, and by that standard there is no whistleblower protection at least for the intelligence community.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)Congress isn't doing it's job, you agree with that. So the Whistleblower chain is non functional. You can report it to the Intelligence Subcommittee's, but they can't tell anyone else, and can't tell other members of congress the problem, even if they were so inclined to do so. Thus, the inmates are in charge of the asylum.
Snowden took the only option available, and that was to release the information, and flee for his life.
You're coming around, slowly and by microscopic degrees, but you're coming around to the side of the majority of Americans on the issue.
randome
(34,845 posts)And if one thinks Congress isn't doing its job, the solution isn't to steal classified documents, run to other countries and then start reading them.
I have no problem changing my mind about any of this but so far Snowden looks to be an isolated loner who dreamed of being a superhero.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Rules are made to be broken. Including this one.[/center][/font][hr]
mother earth
(6,002 posts)Snowden. They absolutely know the choices that he had and the whittling away of whistleblower protection that has taken place.
Congress is not upholding their end of safeguarding whistleblowers in the intelligence community. If you agree with that, then you agree with the fact that Snowden had little choice. When NSA career men join Snowden in agreeing in the criminality of NSA tactics, that's very powerful opinion based on facts and protocol.
Titonwan
(785 posts)If Snowden had been able to reveal this during Bush Jr's term- you'd be popping forehead veins with rage. Now, not so much
randome
(34,845 posts)
[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]
That's a word that's worn the fuck out. When ever someone resorts to extreme rhetoric, it's just a logical fallacy. No, Obama isn't the devil but you've sincerely have to wonder what his motivation is for being a worm for big business.
Hmm... NSA anybody?
randome
(34,845 posts)And your calling Obama a 'weasel' doesn't exactly sell your point of view.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]
Titonwan
(785 posts)This isn't fuckin' RedNeckState where the moderators ban you for the slightest variance from the 'party line', you know. A patriot is critical of government and it doesn't matter one whit which party happens to be in office.
Glenn Greenwald is a perfect example of a consistent critic- he didn't like Bush's crimes as well as Obama's. The cheerleaders don't (or won't) see that.
randome
(34,845 posts)That goes along with the Libertarian mindset, as well.
'Criticism' doesn't mean stealing thousands of documents, running to other countries, then reading them and saying, 'Hey, I don't think I like this.'
Or do you think he read them before deciding to steal them?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]
on point
(2,506 posts)LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)Larkspur
(12,804 posts)Snowden showed that he made the correct decision in fleeing the USA and not trusting the US Government and our legal process. The Obama Admin has been harsher on whistle blowers than previous Admins.
By staying free, Snowden could influence the narrative about him and his cause; whereas, if he put himself at the mercy of the US Government and the Obama Admin, he and his cause would have been suppressed and the Obama Admin would have nearly complete control over the narrative.
randome
(34,845 posts)It was Obama who expanded whistleblower protections in his first term. The Obama Admin has, however, prosecuted leakers. There is a difference between those two terms.
And the reason we have more leakers now is likely the same reason Snowden decided to take the documents and run -there is a black man in office.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)But Obama is apparently Darth-Vader-ish in wanting to rule us all. If Snowden truly discovered something earth-shattering, where is it? Is it that legal warrant regarding metadata that we knew about since, what, 2005? Is it the fact that the NSA spies on other countries?
What did Snowden see that was so important he needed to abandon his girlfriend, cause international incidents and endanger field agents?
So my theory about 'blackness' is as good as any other absent some compelling reason for Snowden to act now.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]
a "theory" I admit there are plenty of stupid theories out there..
...jeez
Titonwan
(785 posts)... how insidious metadata really is. They don't have to read the actual message to learn about patterns. Patterns that can be exploited if chosen for any and all reasons (blackmail, silence, intimidation etc).
It's all about the dossiers being stored. Just like the Gestapo used to do.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)Especially when combined with other data, like internet searches and purchases and so forth. It all works together to create detailed profiles on everyone. And with advancing computer and software technology, the elites' control over the working class will increase dramatically. It's only a matter of time before every text message and email is recorded for future use against you should the 'need' arise. It should be obvious to anyone who understands power politics, that the sole purpose of this is to guard against reform and a departure from the political status quo in this country. The minuscule threat from terrorism, simply cannot rationalize the creation of dossiers on US citizens.
Titonwan
(785 posts)I used to be ashamed for 'conservatives' (kee!) when I read all of their protectionist rhetoric defending Bush's clearly corrupt ways only to read the same froth from cheerleaders of Obama. This country is infested with brainwashed fools.
Edward, you are the MAN.
Titonwan
(785 posts)It's futile trying to change a cheerleaders mind. (I think they're smoking their pom poms)
Romulox
(25,960 posts)
hootinholler
(26,451 posts)So Snowden did what he did because the President is black.
last1standing
(11,709 posts)That kind of reckless accusation belittles those who really do suffer from racism.
Maybe no squirrels were harmed in making your post, but it was still harmful.
randome
(34,845 posts)I wanted to counter the meme that Obama is more harsh on whistleblowers, which I find patently untrue. Perhaps I over-reached.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]
last1standing
(11,709 posts)If you want to counter the belief that Obama is more harsh than bush on whistleblowers, bring up facts, not racebait. When you accuse everyone you don't like of racism, it does little more than water down the rightful stigma attached to real racism.
randome
(34,845 posts)Snowden is a libertarian. Libertarians are often racists. So perhaps I over-reached in this particular thread but it's not that far-fetched a theory especially regarding Snowden saying leakers 'should be shot in the balls' when Bush was in office but apparently had an about-face when Obama came to office with virtually nothing changing in the NSA except for greater protections being put into place for both whistle-blowers and the FISA court.
Since Snowden doesn't seem fit to tell us what he meant when he claimed he 'saw things', the rest of us are free to speculate.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]
last1standing
(11,709 posts)You've tarred someone as being a racist with absolutely no proof other than his political affiliation. But since you believe you are "free to speculate" there's not much I can do other than remember that you post hateful comments that have no relation to the truth.
I seriously hope no one ever does to you what you are doing to others. Not even a poster who purposely spreads ignorance and hatred deserves that.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)He can never come back here. A place where they're all out to silence you is hardly "home", any more...
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)Since Greenwald has repeatedly said Snowden doesn't want, nor has he ever requested clemency...
And the NYT realizes Manning is presently rotting in prison, right? *That* is the one who could use a little love and support right now...
Titonwan
(785 posts)
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"...Since Greenwald has repeatedly said Snowden doesn't want, nor has he ever requested clemency... "
...it's exciting news. I mean, there are three diaries at Daily Kos:
BREAKING: NYTimes: Snowden Deserves Clemency, Clapper Lied to Congress
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/01/02/1266596/-NYTimes-Snowden-Deserves-Clemency-Clapper-Lied-to-Congress
NYT Editorial, Foreign Policy Mag Column Concur: Snowden’s Actions Justified, He Deserves Clemency
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/01/02/1266597/-NYT-Editorial-Foreign-Policy-Mag-Column-Concur-Snowden-s-Actions-Justified-He-Deserves-Clemency
New York Times Calls for Clemency: "Edward Snowden, Whistleblower."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/01/02/1266623/-New-York-Times-Calls-for-Clemency-for-Snowden
LOL!
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Unfortunately, the regime will stick with the spies.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/02/edward-snowden-clemency_n_4529563.html
The editorial boards of The New York Times and The Guardian published editorials on Wednesday, urging the Obama administration to treat Edward Snowden as a whistleblower and offer him some form of clemency.
Seven months ago, the former National Security Administration contractor stole as many as 1.7 million highly classified documents about the U.S. government's surveillance program and released the information to the press. The files revealed how the NSA forced American technology companies to reveal customer information, often without individual warrants, and how data from global phone and Internet networks was secretly intercepted.
While the release of these documents forced Snowden to flee the U.S. and move to Russia, it also alerted the American public -- and many U.S. allies -- of the government's intrusive, unethical and possibly unlawful spying efforts.
Beyond sparking public debate, Snowden's actions have prompted the American Civil Liberties Union to sue the NSA. The suit aims to force the U.S. government to disclose details of its electronic surveillance program and describe what protections it provides to Americans whose communic
ificandream
(11,837 posts)I approved of Daniel Ellsberg, but I think Snowden's a jerk. His complete trashing of government security caused much more harm than good. There's a big difference between a whistleblower and a traitor. Snowden is a traitor.
Titonwan
(785 posts)Gee, thanks.
You do know Daniel Ellsberg LOVES him some Edward Snowden and recommended him to NOT return to this police state? Dan admires Ed's courage and patriotism.
ificandream
(11,837 posts)But that doesn't mean I have to like Snowden. These are two vastly different situations.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)-Upton Sinclair
States that build surveillance machines also build propaganda machines:
The government figured out sockpuppet managment but not "persona management."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023358242
The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4159454
Seventeen techniques for truth suppression.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4249741
Just do some Googling on astroturfing - big organizations have some sophisticated tools.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1208351
The influx will continue
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4216987
The influx of corporate propaganda-spouting personas is steady and unnatural:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3189367
There's an important broader story here about the growing propaganda state.
As the corporate plutocracy has taken over our government and dismantled the free press of a democratic society, they have been creating a pervasive and relentless propaganda machine to replace it. From the purchased mainstream media to the incessant political astroturfing of the internet, the propaganda machine in this country has never been more manipulative, dishonest, non-transparent, relentless, and determinedly pervasive, systematically infiltrating even discussion boards like DU.
What is being done to this country is well beyond creepy and disturbing at this point. We have been overtaken by corporatists intent on corporate fascism, and we have *already* been stripped of major foundations of our free society, including our right to privacy, our right to free speech, our right to protest, and the free press that was our most important alarm for and protection against government abuse and tyranny.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4222551
They are not centrists. They are corporate fascists who have infiltrated and taken control of both political parties. They have trampled the Constitution, turned the United States of America into a surveillance state, militarized our police forces, and created a nascent police state. They persecute whistleblowers and criminalize dissent. They strangle investigative journalism and create a propaganda machine to take its place. They are subverting our democratic, representative government and our Constitution to serve the interests of the wealthy elite, and they are working to turn the rest of us into wage slaves. They are profiting from bloody, undeclared wars; surveillance systems; private prisons; exploitative control of our health care and education; and privatization of every resource we have.
They are a menace to our representative government, our Constitution, and our freedom. Pretending that they are part of the normal representative governmental process, merely "centrists," is to vastly euphemize the cancer they really are.
Titonwan
(785 posts)It sucks, but I'd prefer my life to have some truth in it. Ed wouldn't last a New York minute if he returned here. Powerful people despise being embarrassed.
Solly Mack
(96,943 posts)Titonwan
(785 posts)I've been here for years, but just how do you "K&R"? There's been many articles and commenters I'd like to commend but don't know how. Thanks, in advance.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)R = recommend, or click the DURec button in the OP
Titonwan
(785 posts)Solly Mack
(96,943 posts)K is for kick. To kick the thread up in position (back to the top of page 1). Just type in and post/reply 'K&R' in the subject line.
Posting a comment also 'kicks' the thread as well.
The more you reply and engage in a thread, the more it is kicked. Can only recommend it by vote once, however.
Titonwan
(785 posts)What a wonderful name!
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)<snip
"The Guardian has struck a partnership with the New York Times which will give the US paper access to some of the sensitive cache of documents leaked by the National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden.
The arrangement was made when the Guardian was faced with demands from the UK government to hand over the GCHQ files it had in its possession."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/23/guardian-news-york-times-partnership
Today:
Edward Snowden Clemency: The New York Times, The Guardian Urge Obama To Help NSA Whistleblower
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/02/edward-snowden-clemency_n_4529563.html
@#$% news fluffers... 
last1standing
(11,709 posts)I heard Time had Hitler on its cover awhile back. Does that mean they were sympathizers? 
Hosnon
(7,800 posts)any entity, including a government, to gather all the data the planet creates every second, much less analyze it.
Snowden blew that fantasy up and revealed the truth. He's damn close to earning "national hero" status.
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)Oops, it wasn't a shooting star.
It was just the readership of the NYT falling out of the sky like a burnt out rock.
*yawn*
Next!
BobUp
(347 posts)should allow Snowden back into the USA, invite him to the White House for a chat, and possibly then President Obama might find out some secrets the NSA knew about himself. Sounds like a great idea. Maybe for once and forever put the birthers to rest, and tell CONServatives what they're dying to know, did Barack really use cocaine. Snowden could probably even tell Barack some things he didn't know about Caribou Barbie and Mittens, that would be awesome. Barack could offer Eddy some of his homemade beer, to loosen him up a bit.