On White, Male, Privledge...

[WillyT]

(Full disclosure: I'm a 58 year old white male.)

But several decades ago, I'm watch either Phil or Oprah, and there's some whiny white dude on the panel trying to argue for the poor picked-on, downtrodden white-male...

On the "panel", were a variety of white males...

From Father's rights advocates, to out and out racist assholes.

And as I listened to their whining... I got furious, and started shouting at the TV...

"Ask THIS Question, ask THIS Question... ASK THIS FUCKING QUESTION !!!"

(I realize that when you yell at the TV, they cannot hear you, but I was pissed.)

The Question: If it were possible to push a magical button that would change you from white to black, or from male to female, or BOTH, BECAUSE OF THE INHERENT ADVANTAGES OF BEING A FEMALE, OR A MINORITY. Would YOU push that button???

Although it never got asked on that TV show, when I asked it every now and again at a bar when a similar situation came up... not one white male raised their hands.

Just sayin...

[Kurska]

1. I know a lot of people that would probably push the button to turns them from a male into a female.

It would save them a lot of time and a lot of surgery.

Granted it isn't for reasons of social advancement, but I think you get my point.

[WillyT]

2. LOL !!!

I knew that was coming... but nonetheless... great point.

[loli phabay]

26. a back and forth switch would be interesting

[M0rpheus]

3. I don't have anything to add to this. So... I'll give you a kick.

[arcane1]

4. Their only complaint is having to now watch what they say and do around people.

The idiots who complain that black people are still "allowed" to say the n-word, for example, but they themselves are "oppressed" because people don't like them saying it.

Dumb-asses.

[BainsBane]

5. Someone was just saying something similar about the b word

That it's on TV so it can't be sexist.

[brewens]

152. It's kind of like my saying, "hell, I think drunken Irishman jokes are funny", being a drinking

man of Irish heritage. So why can't I tell "n!&&er" jokes? Now, although there was a time when the Irish were looked upon a subhuman, it's been like at least 100 years before I was born. Not the same thing.

[Major Nikon]

6. Have you ever asked that question where the roles were reversed?

[VanillaRhapsody]

54. are you serious?

[Major Nikon]

69. Do you think the original question was serious?

[hfojvt]

7. what do you think the answer would be

if the question was asked of blacks, females, and black females. Are they gonna want to push a button that makes them white and/or male?

I am guessing that most people like who they are even if they don't like the way the world treats them.

I would never say there are inherent advantages to being a minority. Maybe for being female, but there are some minuses to that as well.

Also, at this point, I have been male for 51 years. So switching now would be tough. Let me go back from the beginning though and live life as a female and I am sure I would have had a better life. All I have to do is look at my three sisters for proof. All three have done much better than my brother and certainly than myself.

Oh, and here's another button. A button that switches me from me, a white male to Michelle Obama, a black female. I'd certainly take THAT switch. Any chance Michelle is gonna want to push the button and trade places with THIS white male with all the privileges that come from being me?

[BainsBane]

8. Yeah, you could have the advantage of knowing you had a 1 in 3 chance

of being raped or physically assaulted by a loved one or family member if you were female. You would also have the advantage of being paid less for the same work.

The disadvantages to being African American should be obvious, but then maintaining privilege hinges on denying reality.

[Bonobo]

11. Do you happen to know how many men died in wars in the 20th century?

Must be over a hundred million easy.

Let me repeat that.

100 million + men died in wars in the 20th century.

[BainsBane]

12. Way more Americans die from gun violence at home

since 1968 than in all the wars in the entire history of the US. African Americans are at a disproportionate risk of being shot, while the numbers of female victims are close to men, yet they comprise only 14% of killers.

[Bonobo]

13. Yes, I agree.

So more men are killed by guns domestically AND in wars. In fact in the millions in the US.

Doesn't sound like such a great thing for men. Especially when you throw in the fact that you will live less years.

[VanillaRhapsody]

56. and WHO sent them TO war?

[El_Johns]

64. Margaret Thatcher, for one.

[VanillaRhapsody]

67. One of HOW MANY?????

when you look at the big picture and not look for one tiny exception....thinking that changes the rule.

thats called throwing the baby out with the bathwater...

[El_Johns]

89. Hilary Clinton is no dove. I think there are a number of female congresspeople who voted for

Bush's war.

Women in power don't particularly vote peacenik, especially the higher they go.

Your contention that it's only men who send other men (and now women) to war is just baloney.

[VanillaRhapsody]

91. She is not President yet....keep trying...the exceptions do not negate the rule....sorry.

Its overwhelmingly MEN that send other men to war historically since time immemorial (though now men and women are side by side).

[hfojvt]

33. "paid less for the same work"

Yeah, in 35 years of work, I have NEVER seen that. In fact, have seen the opposite. And all my sisters make more money than I do, for less physical work.

And every woman that I am close to seems to have avoided that 1 in 3 chance - mother, 3 sisters, sister-in-law, 5 cousins and two aunts on my dad's side, 7 cousins on my mom's side. And none were raped that I know of.

Physically assaulted? Yeah, we all physically assaulted each other, but we all just got together for dad's 80th birthday with apparently no hard feelings.

I don't think I am either denying any reality, NOR maintaining any privilege.

[BainsBane]

37. There is data easily available on all of this

which has been presented to you many, many times. The problem is you just don't give a shit.
Yes, it's all about poor beleaguered you. No women are raped. No African Americans are oppressed. Slavery never existed. It is all a conspiracy to oppress you and you alone.
Boo fucking hoo.

[hfojvt]

75. oh, I very much give a shit

I have torn the data apart and found it to be lacking.

I think the nonsense about "women are paid less for the same work" is mostly nonsense, and maybe happens to "highly paid women". The problem is not that "I don't give a crap". The problem is that I disagree with something that some people are heavily in to promoting.



It is certainly NOT all about me. It is even more about the 30% of male households who have less than $5,000 in net worth. I happen to be a long way from that group. It's about men who are so privileged they get killed or severely disabled on the job.

Okay, I actually am in that group. I was killed on the job in 2007.

But really, this zombie life is not all that bad.

It's just not privileged.

Nor, thank you very much, for implying it, did I ever say those things. That women are never raped. That slavery never existed. Or that African Americans are never oppressed.

I never said any of that.

In fact, I said quite clearly that they are right here in post #7 which you presumably read "I would never say there are inherent advantages to being a minority."

See what I said there? I said, basically, "it kinda sucks to be a minority".

and just in case you still want to deny it or pretend I said the opposite. I will say it again.

It kinda sucks to be a minority.

But that does NOT mean that low income white people are more privileged than high income black people.

[VanillaRhapsody]

86. Much like the data that Teabaggers discount on Climate

no matter how many studies prove you wrong...you refuse to accept it....perferring your own personal anecdotal evidence to actual SCIENCE!

[hfojvt]

108. no, I prefer actual science to bad science

and as for anecdotal evidence. Well, if women actually WERE paid less for the SAME work, then I should have been able to see it at SOME of my jobs. Shouldn't I?

Or am I just supposed to accept in on faith, in spite of having seen it contradicted at EVERY job I have ever worked?

It's like the luminiferous ether or neutrinos. You can't see it, or feel it, but physicists will tell you it exists.

At least before Michelson-Morley.

[VanillaRhapsody]

110. its NOT bad science...that is exactly what the climate deniers call the ACTUAL science...

in the face of ALL evidence of EXPERTS....they rely on the fact that the Polar Vortex just went through town!

Its not in "faith" its every study out there say women make 19% less than men on average....that is just the facts...you can deny it all you want...

It's not LESS true.

[VanillaRhapsody]

87. do you know how FEW "high income Black people" there are????

OMG dude....that's the whole freaking point!

[hfojvt]

107. I can look it up

In 2011, there were 1.06 MILLION black households with income over $100,000.

At the same time, there were 9.1 million white households privileged to have income under $15,000.

Last time I checked, 1 million was a lot of households and even more people.

Not as many as 9 million, but still quite a few.

[VanillaRhapsody]

111. and compare that to how many WHITE Rich households!

....this about percentages...compared to White families...its damn FEW!

[VanillaRhapsody]

112. If the Bears and the Saints are in the Superbowl....and the Saints come into the game with 3 to 1

odds in their favor....


Who has the "advantage"? Who is MOST likely to win? Who is the odds on favorite?

[VanillaRhapsody]

57. so "physical work" is more important so therefore more valuable in your mind?

[hfojvt]

83. ah no

what physical work is, it is LESS privileged than non-physical work.

I, unlike my sisters, get to come home from work in pain. My feet hurt. My knees hurt. My wrist hurts. My back even hurts.

I load 16 tons, and what do I get?

Okay, I only load three or four tons even on the busiest day.

But it's generally considered a privilege to make more money while somebody ELSE works up a sweat.

But that's okay. The stuff I do is NOT nearly so important as what higher paid people do. Just ask them. They'll tell you. And, of course, my work could be done by a trained gorilla. It takes a 2nd grade education to do what I do.

Thank goodness I have a master's degree.

[VanillaRhapsody]

85. apparently so...you seem to think "naturally physical labor gets paid more"

I am degreed myself...but I come from the Blue Collar world.

[lumberjack_jeff]

118. Of what practical benefit is "not-physical work" to your daily life?

Without implementation, it's all navel-gazing. One can *think* about planting crops, and *imagine* what it must be like to harvest it, and *contemplate* the logistics of moving it to your plate, but absent the physical and often dangerous work required to make it happen, it's just an empty plate.

Yes, physical work is more valuable.

[VanillaRhapsody]

121. What? In this world no it isn't....

So is "nursing" physical labor? How about childcare? Is waiting tables physical labor...how about being a Janitor?

Since when has just being "physical labor" always been more valuable?

[lumberjack_jeff]

124. Tangible labor is physical labor. n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

125. baloney...physical labor is physical labor...

just because they are traditionally mens jobs do not mean they are more "valuable".

[1StrongBlackMan]

27. Has it ever occurred to you ...

that your three sisters excelled DESPITE the B.S., that comes with their gender, rather than because of their gender.

Oh, and here's another button. A button that switches me from me, a white male to Michelle Obama, a black female. I'd certainly take THAT switch. Any chance Michelle is gonna want to push the button and trade places with THIS white male with all the privileges that come from being me?

So white, male privilege doesn't exist because you can point to a Michelle Obama?

Well, then, surely you will agree that there is no economic mobility problem in the U.S. because once every 2 months, or so, someone, somewhere, wins the PowerBall, Mega Million, or some state lottery, making them millionaires

[hfojvt]

32. in three out of three cases and two of two?

Not only that, but I would say my brother's wife if better off than my brother.

Seems pretty clear to me that male privilege is therefore not worth much more than 32 pennies in a ragu jar.

The argument from the privilege people is that whites are privileged and males are privileged. so yeah, an example of some black females who are far more privileged DOES kinda negate that.

As for the lottery example it seems to me the privilege people are kinda saying that because SOME people are millionaires and because SOME people win the lottery that makes EVERYBODY rich.

[1StrongBlackMan]

35. wow ...

Do you intentionally miss points. Point 1: because some is doing better than you doesn't mean they have some advantage ... it means they're doing (and maybe, ARE) better than you. And if the women around you (and your brother) are doing better than you (and your brother) than maybe, just maybe it's not about them ... maybe it says more about the males in your family.

Regarding my lottery example ... you have that backwards, as you present exactly the privilege mentality. Because they can identify one exception, the rule doesn't exist.

[hfojvt]

97. and there it is

Why on earth would I think this concept of white male privilege is so insulting?

Why would anybody think it is insulting to be told "you are in the bottom 20% because 80% of the country is better than you"? And that's even WITH all the fucking privileges I supposedly have and I am STILL the biggest loser.

And so stupid, that I find this fact insulting.

Is that the point you were trying to make? I hope I didn't miss it.

Well, one exception might not negate a rule, but how about 18 million exceptions? Is that enough?

The one is mentioned because it is a fairly obvious exception. That doesn't mean there are not more of them. I thought THAT would be obvious.

[1StrongBlackMan]

154. I've spent a couple days thinking about this response ...

(and your posts with respect to Affirmative Action) and came to a question: Is it not the definition of gender/racial supremacy to believe that those that fair better than you have done so BECAUSE their race/gender has given them some unearned advantage; while your faring better than others is BECAUSE your earned efforts?

That seems to be what you are saying.

[VanillaRhapsody]

58. because YOU know 3 women that make more money than men...

well that just BLOWS all the studies and statics to the contrary out of the water then huh?

[hfojvt]

100. uh no

that would be comparing apples to oranges

then again, that's what most of the studies do too.

Economics happens to be my field of graduate study. So I think I know a thing or two about studies, and some of the flaws therein.

I could be wrong though.

It happens.

The last time was in 1978, if memory serves.

But it's not my fault.

I was only sixteen. Only sixteen.

I was too young to fall in love.

[VanillaRhapsody]

55. What ARE these female "advantages" I have?

[hfojvt]

92. What?

You mean it annoys you when somebody tells you that you are privileged?

I feel your pain.

But let me see if I can explain. I will jump in the wayback machine to 1994, almost the last year I had a date. It's Valentine's day. I bought my "girlfriend" a dozen roses. Cost me about forty bucks, IIRC. At the time I was making $5.40 an hour. So I had to work over 8 hours to pay for those roses. What did I get from her?

Can you guess?

It starts with an N and ends with a G and it has seven letters.

Maybe it would have been different if she actually liked me.

[VanillaRhapsody]

93. No idea....please tell me what MY advantages are...

Poor you....you bought a girl some flowers....would you trade YOUR privileges for a few flowers? This is actually pretty freaking pathetic.....


GMAFB!!!

[VanillaRhapsody]

94. YOU decided to "gift" this girl flowers...and because YOU didn't "get anything" for it...

THIS is your major malfunction? THIS is what you see as a major advantage? ARE you freaking kidding me? Compared to YOUR privileges? You got rejected by a woman.....wow...they are soooo privileged to have the ability to reject you...that is SOOOO much power in the whole world!

[hfojvt]

106. it's more power than I have

What exactly are MY privileges supposed to be again?

I get to be poor.
I get to be single.
I get to work low status, low paid jobs.
I get to not have kids.
I get to not have grandkids.
I get to die alone.

But it's all good. At least I get to play ping pong twice a week with Bill Gates at the white-males only club.

I usually beat him too.

21-15, 21-12 and 21-8 last Thursday.


In your face, Gates!!!


Come see me Tuesday for another a$$-whupping.

[1StrongBlackMan]

142. Your Privilege is ...

Knowing that none of these things are due to your being a white male.

[VanillaRhapsody]

95. Why I am so upset by this revelation...I am turning in my woman card and relinquishing my

5 extra years!

[Sheldon Cooper]

115. ...

[BainsBane]

9. Perhaps the best question would be how would you want your children to grow up?

Would you choose to randomly have them grow up in an African American family? Would you choose to randomly have your son transform into being a girl? Do you think either scenario would improve the child's options in life? And no, I don't mean you get to be Michelle Obama or Beyoncé, just an average African American or woman of any race.

[Scuba]

31. +1

[VanillaRhapsody]

59. PERFECT!

exactly what I have been saying for 2 days now!

[Lost_Count]

10. Is that what it comes down to?

Who is, quantitatively, the most down trodden upon?

If one is not the most put upon does that mean that they can't have a legitimate complaint?

[NoOneMan]

14. I just learned how to push buttons to trash DU threads

So another button? Slow down now. Im not an early adopter

[WillyT]

15. It's A Fanciful, Yet Rather Easy Question...

If you believe that women and minorities have some unfair advantage, would you want to trade places ???

Most white guys I know, including me, would say no.

If we are honest. We KNOW the advantages we've had.

[NoOneMan]

16. Is the button blue or red?

Is it like on of those "easy" buttons? I just don't get what you're asking

If we are honest. We KNOW the advantages we've had.

It depends on where you are from and how you are judging advantage. Growing up among all white people (seriously, 99.whatever+%), being white didn't mean dick. Now, I was also incredibly poor and that's what determined the game around there mostly. Though I looked nice, was athletic and remain a genuis so that was all helpful. Hold that against me if you wish. But as far as my race was concerned, it didn't mean dick. I know this isn't true for everyone. So broadbrushes are just that. Its probably more important to just look at stats and talk about unemployment and intergenerational mobility, and what policies we can promote to change those trends.

[WillyT]

18. Would It Have Been Easier If You Were Female, Or Black ???

Because this OP started out with white males feeling persecuted.

[NoOneMan]

20. It would of been easier if I was rich

Black or female or male. But when you're on the bottom of the heap in a place like that, you're on the bottom. If you're rich, you're not.


My wife was from the same general area. She was not rich but her advantage(s) scored her a full ride to university with an athletic scholarship.

Because this OP started out with white males feeling persecuted.

I didn't see that. I just see some annoyance at being the target of a lecture on DU's condescending war de jour.

[WillyT]

22. I'm Sorry Your Honor... Non-Responsive.

[Skittles]

24. it's called total denial, WillyT

yes INDEED

[1StrongBlackMan]

28. It's more than denial. n/t

[WillyT]

78. Oh Skittles... The Denial Is So Heavy Here...

[VanillaRhapsody]

61. Her advantages were...she is smart and took the opportunities afforded her

or are you diminishing her success by claiming that she succeeded BECAUSE she is a woman...???

I doubt SHE would agree with you.

[NoOneMan]

70. Her major advantage at the time compared to peers was her athletic prowess

or are you diminishing her success by claiming that she succeeded BECAUSE she is a woman

No, rather I am pointed out that she succeeded despite being a women (which is a purported fatal disadvantage here). And that's because we aren't just men or women. We aren't just black or white. We aren't just rich or poor. Everyone has a unique set of advantages and disadvantages, and unique circumstances that they are born in. To state that being a woman or being black is some fatal achilles heal is also a gross misrepresentation of reality. Some people have Athletic Advantage that overweighs all other "disadvantages". Some people have ugly or dumb disadvantages that screw them no matter what else they are. Some people, even whites, have poor disadvantage that will keep them down regardless. Life is a lot more complicated than just picking out your 3 most hated Advantages and lecturing everyone that falls in those circles (like 'white' and 'men'). Such segments are further segmented in myriad ways that make these condescending lectures moot, pointless and tiresome. But by all means, carry on.

[VanillaRhapsody]

77. She's SMART! Why are you insulting that by claiming HER being a woman favored it?

she succeeded DESPITE that fact.

[NoOneMan]

81. Why are you claiming that I am claiming something I am not?

Welcome to ignore....blowing every time you move your mouth. Don't bother

[VanillaRhapsody]

84. You are the one saying that her being a woman HELPED her succeed it didn't

hinder her...well let me tell you something as a successful woman.....SHE worked harder for it than men....She didn't succeed because she was a woman...she succeeded in spite of it. THOSE men she had to work harder than...had the advantage!

[VanillaRhapsody]

90. If the Bears and the Saints are in the Superbowl...and the Saint's go in with a 3 to 1 odds to win

who has the "advantage"?

[VanillaRhapsody]

60. No its quite easy....YOU wouldn't trade your life for a Black guys or a Woman.

it is THAT simple.

[NoOneMan]

63. I like my life

I wouldn't trade it for Elon Musk's either. Race and gender have nothing to do with why I like my life

[VanillaRhapsody]

68. YOU BET you do....its nice at the top of the heap.

[NoOneMan]

71. The Kochs, Warren Buffet and Elon Musk are among the top of the heap

And its outrageous that 99% are dividing themselves up with petty arguments when they are all being simultaneously shitted upon

[VanillaRhapsody]

76. White men have all the best chances of BECOMING them!

sorry if you personally didn't make it to that level of advantage! However you will also not likely be afraid to leave your house at night nor will you likely be shot by someone like George Zimmerman!

You deny your advantages all you want...they are still their...if YOU aren't being sexually or racially oppressed...YOU have THAT advantage

[NoOneMan]

80. White people don't just up and *become* rich. The rich are born rich.

Intergenerational mobility is the keyword, and in the US it blows.

You deny your advantages all you want

I'm not denying any advantages here. But I will firmly tell you (and since you don't know me, you have zero grounds or evidence for refutation), that growing up in a completely white area, my looks and superb academic performance were my primary advantages, whereas my race was nil (as everyone was white). But this issue isn't about me or you.

if YOU aren't being sexually or racially oppressed...YOU have THAT advantage

Likewise, there are a multitude of advantages that a black person or a woman can have, depending upon the social setting, that would vastly outweigh any disadvantages associated with their gender and ethnicity (especially depending on the area). That is a fact. We are all losing some and winning some. As a general rule, 99% are losing most of those battles more often. If you want to talk about broadbrushes and generalizations you can back up with facts, start researching intergenerational mobility and focus on the real advantage that is causing class stratification: being born rich.

[VanillaRhapsody]

82. Yes 75% ARE BUT....if you are a White male....you are the MOST likely to be one of the other

25% who BECOME rich!

If you are a woman or a Black person....very very unlikely!

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. White-male privilege is analagous to Rich-ugly privilege.

Hell yes, it's awesome to be rich and it can mitigate many of the problems with being ugly.

Ask me when I'm 80. I'd push the "female" button for a do-over.

[VanillaRhapsody]

79. We are talking about average people here...

YOU WOULD not trade your entire life for that of a female...0
No one said When you are 80 as a "do over" We are talking about right Now...and forever! Hell no you wouldn't.

[lumberjack_jeff]

117. It'd extend my life by 5 years and preclude ever again having to climb a tall ladder.

The question as framed is too mixed up with "But what about my family?" and other considerations.

The privilege that women enjoy is the result of a lifetime of preferential treatment. A simple sex change operation can't duplicate that.

A better question is; "If offered the opportunity to choose the gender of your child. Which would you choose?"

Interestingly, that isn't hypothetical. By a 4:1 ratio parents in the west choose girls.

[VanillaRhapsody]

122. what the hell does that have to do with anything? In China and India...girl babies

are routinely killed!

If offered the opportunity...to trade YOUR life for that of an average woman...YOU sir would NOT! Nor would you trade it for an average Black person's. It would be stupid...you would be giving up your advantage White male advantage.

FACT!

This concept is very easy to understand Jeff...here this should help you...

If the Saints and the Bears were in the Superbowl and the Saints were favored 3 to 1...

the odds are in the Saints favor....they are the odds on favorite to win....the Saints have the advantage.

Now the odds might not be the same...but in this analogy...YOU are the Saints.

[lumberjack_jeff]

128. Yet, you're writing this and I'm reading it... in english.

People place bets based on the perceived odds. In society, some of those "bets" are more money for medical care, more money for education and better treatment of female criminals. Now some of the people placing the bets are beginning to realize that they know who the winner is going to be, and that's why they want girl children.

Oh, and FWIW, the Saints lost yesterday.

[VanillaRhapsody]

130. So what...the concept is exactly the same...

if you are born a White male in the United States....YOU are BORN with the odds on favorite advantage...


YOU have the advantage....

[lumberjack_jeff]

131. Yes it is. Chinese parents choose boys for the same reason american ones choose girls.

It gives their offspring an advantage.

[VanillaRhapsody]

132. No it doesn't....Do the women all do better than men in that country for some reason?

You do realize China is communist right? And what that means?

NOW back to the U.S. if YOU are born a White Male in the United States....you are born with the Odds in your favor...

Just like the Saints in the previous analogy (it's an analogy...use your imagination). YOU are the Saints....you are born with the odds on favorite status..

anyone who is NOT born a White Male will tell you so....and many White males who are honest will tell you so too!

No amount of feigned victimhood changes that fact.

[lumberjack_jeff]

133. To the extent that it's not gibberish, that's not an argument, it's a contradiction.

[VanillaRhapsody]

134. Sorry Jeff but you would NOT trade your life for a woman or Black man...

first thing that would happen if you did choose to be a woman...you would lose 19% of your income...that means that if you make $50,000 a year...you would now make $40,500.

And that's just the beginning.

[VanillaRhapsody]

135. and here is my proof..

The statistic is used by government agencies and economists, and is gathered by the United States Census Bureau as part of the Current Population Survey.

In 2010 the median income of FTYR workers was $42,800 for men, compared to $34,700 for women. The female-to-male earnings ratio was 0.81, slightly higher than the 2008 ratio.[2] The female-to-male earnings ratio of 0.81 means that, in 2009, female FTYR workers earned 19% less than male FTYR workers. The statistic does not take into account differences in experience, skill, occupation, education or hours worked, as long as it qualifies as full-time work. However, in 2010, an economist testified to the U.S. Congress Joint Economic Committee that studies "always find that some portion of the wage gap is unexplained" even after controlling for measurable factors that are assumed to influence earnings. The unexplained portion of the wage gap is attributed by some to gender discrimination.[3]:80

The estimates for the discriminatory component of the gender pay gap include 5%[4]:2 and 7%[3] and in at least one study grow as men and women's careers progress.[3] 3 One economist testified to Congress that hundreds of studies have consistently found unexplained pay differences which potentially include discrimination.[3]:80 Another criticized these studies as insufficiently controlled, and opined that men and women would have equal pay if they made the same choices and had the same experience, education, etc.[4]: Other studies have found direct evidence of discrimination. For example, fewer replies to identical resumes with female names[3]:10 and more jobs went to women when orchestras moved to blind auditions.[4]

[VanillaRhapsody]

136. Denial is not a river in Egypt.

[lumberjack_jeff]

137. Speaking of denial...

you haven't yet responded to your slander of me in another thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4314041

If you're going to call out people by name in a thread in which they aren't even participating, at least have the basic humanity of not completely fabricating a story about them.

[VanillaRhapsody]

138. slander...hahahahahahahaha

I said you denied Male Privilege...and you continue to do so even now! The truth is NOT slander

[VanillaRhapsody]

141. Being White Male in America means you have the game on the lowest difficulty setting!

Dudes. Imagine life here in the US — or indeed, pretty much anywhere in the Western world — is a massive role playing game, like World of Warcraft except appallingly mundane, where most quests involve the acquisition of money, cell phones and donuts, although not always at the same time. Let’s call it The Real World. You have installed The Real World on your computer and are about to start playing, but first you go to the settings tab to bind your keys, fiddle with your defaults, and choose the difficulty setting for the game. Got it?

Okay: In the role playing game known as The Real World, “Straight White Male” is the lowest difficulty setting there is.

This means that the default behaviors for almost all the non-player characters in the game are easier on you than they would be otherwise. The default barriers for completions of quests are lower. Your leveling-up thresholds come more quickly. You automatically gain entry to some parts of the map that others have to work for. The game is easier to play, automatically, and when you need help, by default it’s easier to get.

Now, once you’ve selected the “Straight White Male” difficulty setting, you still have to create a character, and how many points you get to start — and how they are apportioned — will make a difference. Initially the computer will tell you how many points you get and how they are divided up. If you start with 25 points, and your dump stat is wealth, well, then you may be kind of screwed. If you start with 250 points and your dump stat is charisma, well, then you’re probably fine. Be aware the computer makes it difficult to start with more than 30 points; people on higher difficulty settings generally start with even fewer than that.

As the game progresses, your goal is to gain points, apportion them wisely, and level up. If you start with fewer points and fewer of them in critical stat categories, or choose poorly regarding the skills you decide to level up on, then the game will still be difficult for you. But because you’re playing on the “Straight White Male” setting, gaining points and leveling up will still by default be easier, all other things being equal, than for another player using a higher difficulty setting.

Likewise, it’s certainly possible someone playing at a higher difficulty setting is progressing more quickly than you are, because they had more points initially given to them by the computer and/or their highest stats are wealth, intelligence and constitution and/or simply because they play the game better than you do. It doesn’t change the fact you are still playing on the lowest difficulty setting.

You can lose playing on the lowest difficulty setting. The lowest difficulty setting is still the easiest setting to win on. The player who plays on the “Gay Minority Female” setting? Hardcore.

And maybe at this point you say, hey, I like a challenge, I want to change my difficulty setting! Well, here’s the thing: In The Real World, you don’t unlock any rewards or receive any benefit for playing on higher difficulty settings. The game is just harder, and potentially a lot less fun. And you say, okay, but what if I want to replay the game later on a higher difficulty setting, just to see what it’s like? Well, here’s the other thing about The Real World: You only get to play it once. So why make it more difficult than it has to be? Your goal is to win the game, not make it difficult.

Oh, and one other thing. Remember when I said that you could choose your difficulty setting in The Real World? Well, I lied. In fact, the computer chooses the difficulty setting for you. You don’t get a choice; you just get what gets given to you at the start of the game, and then you have to deal with it.

So that’s “Straight White Male” for you in The Real World (and also, in the real world): The lowest difficulty setting there is. All things being equal, and even when they are not, if the computer — or life — assigns you the “Straight White Male” difficulty setting, then brother, you’ve caught a break.

[VanillaRhapsody]

140. Here is your answer

In many societies including India and China male offspring are privileged and favored over female children.[29][30][31][32] Some manifestations of son preference and the devaluation of women are eliminating unwanted daughters through neglect, maltreatment, abandonment, as well as female infanticide and feticide despite laws that prohibit infanticide and sex-selective pregnancy termination.[32][33][34] In India some of these practices have contributed to skewed sex ratios in favor of male children at birth and in the first five years.[30] Other examples of privileging male offspring are special "praying for a son" ceremonies during pregnancy, more ceremony and festivities following the birth of a boy, listing and introducing sons before daughters, and common felicitations that associate good fortune and well-being with the number of sons.[35]

Reasons given for preferring sons to daughters include sons' role in religious family rites, which daughters are not permitted to perform, and the belief that sons are permanent members of the birth family whereas daughters belong to their husband's family after marriage in accordance with patrilocal tradition. Other reasons include patrilineal customs whereby only sons can carry on the family name, the obligation to pay dowry to a daughter's husband or his family, and the expectation that sons will support their birth parents financially while it is regarded as undesirable or shameful to receive financial support from daughters.[32][33]

[Nye Bevan]

19. I would be very tempted to press the "female" button for the 5 extra years of life expectancy (nt)

[WillyT]

21. Me Too !!!

[VanillaRhapsody]

62. but would you push the Black male for 7 yrs less?

how's that for a disadvantage?

[davidn3600]

23. You are mixing things up here...

Are you asking that a person switches their gender or skin color but everything else (ie: family wealth) stays the same?

Family wealth will be by far the biggest factor. A kid today who has a wealthy family will likely grow up to live quite well regardless of race or gender. Where you start to see huge disparities is when you get into the poor. Whites dont have it easy being poor either. But minorities who are poor tend to really struggle to get by.

Privilege is less about race and gender and more about wealth, in my personal view. Money and greed is really all that seems to matter in life. Its pessimistic to think that way but look at our society. It's the truth. Rich people have better access to jobs, healthcare, luxuries, education, lawyers, etc.. Notice the rich don't go to jail that much, but the poor always do. Going forward, that's the biggest issue in America...wealth disparity. Gender and race issues are important, but right now there will be a far greater negative effect on society if the wealth disparity continues to increase.

[1StrongBlackMan]

30. Yes ...

for the experiment, every other characteristic of the person remains exactly the same.

[CFLDem]

25. As a white male

I would totally push the button just to see what it's like.

[VanillaRhapsody]

65. Permanently? You just want to see what its like....that doesn't sound like it at all

we are talking about permanent trade.

[CFLDem]

113. Oh, no,

It's very permanent.

[VanillaRhapsody]

126. You a (heterosexual White male?) would trade his life

for that of an average woman? Or average Black man?

[CFLDem]

127. Definitely

My first pick would be lesbian of color and my second pick would black male.

[99Forever]

29. How about a button...

... to change from a financially strapped, white male to a rich, female person of color?

I'd push that in a second.

False dichotomies are false.

[VanillaRhapsody]

66. How is it a false dichotomy...would you trade YOUR average life...

for that of an average Black woman? Yes or No?

[Major Nikon]

98. False dichotomy, AKA black and white thinking

Can you think of a better example?

[VanillaRhapsody]

99. Okay an average White woman's life....

[Major Nikon]

101. Does seem to be a better example

I'll give you that.

[VanillaRhapsody]

102. Okay bring it....will you trade your life for that of an average White woman?

waiting on baited breath for you answer...

[Major Nikon]

103. I have no desire to be a woman regardless of the advantages

I'm pretty sure most women would feel the same way and I suspect most black people. There's a lot more to changing race or gender than just privileges. That's why the question is ridiculous to begin with.

[VanillaRhapsody]

104. there are no advantages..YOU lose Advantage...that is why!

first thing that would happen...your salary would drop by an average of 19%! How do you like THOSE apples?

So if you were making $50,000 as a man....the first thing that would happen is suddenly now you are only making $40,500 a year!

POOOF!!!

[Major Nikon]

105. Living 5 years longer isn't an advantage?

And if you want to assume a 19% pay drop that also means I'd be more likely to spend more time with my family and less as a wage slave supporting other people. Doesn't sound like a bad deal to me.

The pay gap for childless people is 7%. Factoring out other issues of choice eliminates it entirely and may even cause it to go the other way. Childless unmarried women under 30 make more than men and considerably more in some markets.
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/reverse-gender-gap-study-young-childless-women-earn/story?id=11538401

[Demo_Chris]

34. One would hope most people LIKE who and what they are. nt

[RadleyJ]

36. If you were to ask a similar question to minorites or females

that if they could push a button and change from black to white, or female to male, do you think many (or any), would do so?

[WillyT]

38. I'd Like To Think...No... But Then...

they weren't on a nationally televised talk show complaining about the plight and suffering of being white and male in America.

Being white and male myself... it was downright embarrassing.

[Major Nikon]

43. If they answered no would that negate their complaining about a perceived injustice?

[WillyT]

44. Nope... It Would Be Standing Up Against The Injustice....

[Major Nikon]

46. There you go

Our society was built on the premise that no matter how privileged or unprivileged you are, standing up against injustice is a right we all have.

[RadleyJ]

51. "They weren't on a nationally televised talk show"

Neither were the bar patrons you posed the question to.

[Adam-Bomb]

39. No privilege here, Pal

Other than when I was in the service (no women in the Infantry) I have been
with folks of all colors and genders my whole life, going to the same public schools,
living in the same neighborhoods and working the same jobs with exactly the same pay.

I AM privileged to have a great wife, fine sons and wonderful grandkids.

[WillyT]

40. And This Isn't About Anecdotes... There Are Many Fine White Males...

There are many white males who've also suffered greatly under our system of class distinction.

They are referred to as "White Trash". Usually... by other Whites.

That said, it's the same problem students at Universities faced when they atempted to form "White Student Unions".

Everybody laughed and got the creeps at the same time.



Plus... It wasn't until the 5th Grade that I went to school with Black students. 1965. I had a best friend in the 3rd Grade who was Japanese... but no Black student were to be found at my school until 2 years later.

After the Civil Rights Act passed.

[pink-o]

41. Okay for all the people who say white men are just as disadvantaged as women and minorities

But perhaps in different ways: listen up! Cuz this is the point. Acknowledging inequality, be it racial, income, gender et al, is the first step to breaking down ******ALL******* repressive social roles. Yes, it sucks for dudes who are supposed to be eternal strong and not show emotion, I'm sure they envy us our freedom to cry and hug someone else's kids. I'm sure it's annoying to watch Minorities who might have a leg up due to affirmative action. But the whole IDEA of working to change this perception means that white men gain something too. Happier wives, moms, sisters--that'll improve your life. African Americans you can meet and befriend withough anger, judgment or defensiveness.

So please. Quit kvetching, quit competing about who's got it worse and let's all work TOGETHER to ensure we all get what's best.

Jeez

[WillyT]

42. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!!

Thank you.

That's all I was trying to say.

However lamely.

[AverageJoe90]

144. My two cents.

. Okay for all the people who say white men are just as disadvantaged as women and minorities

I'm not convinced that anybody on DU made this exact argument, TBH.....though with that said,
I can certainly agree with everything else: you don't need to be a fan of the now terribly flawed "White Privilege" terminology to acknowledge that social(ethnic, gender, income), etc. disparities *do* still exist, and to support eliminating these disparities as much as humanly possible so we can build a better country. A truly better society.

So please. Quit kvetching, quit competing about who's got it worse and let's all work TOGETHER to ensure we all get what's best.

Amen to that.

[davidn3600]

45. Male privilege vs Female Privilege

Found on the internet....

Male Privilege:
1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.
2. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are.
3. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are insanely low.
4. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.
6. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.
7. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex.
8. I can have sex with as many women as I want and won't be shamed for it. In fact, I will be cheered on.
9. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or my gender conformity
10. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car.
11. As long as I have money, I dont have to be conventionally attractive to get attention from the opposite sex.
12. When I speak, chances are people will listen more carefully to my opinions than when a woman speaks.
13. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.
14. I will likely make more money over my lifetime than a woman who does the same jobs.
15. The vast majority of movies and books will have my gender as the strongest, deepest, and most meaningful characters.


Female Privilege:
1. I’m under less pressure than others to engage in risky, dangerous and unhealthy behaviors.
2. I can choose professions that are less lucrative, and not be called a loser or "failing to launch."
3. If I am arrested and convicted of a crime, I will likely serve less time in prison than a man would for the same crime.
4. Family courts will generally view me as the better, more capable parent regardless of any other factors. And my role as a parent is generally considered more important than the father's role.
5. I can spend time with children and not be viewed with suspicion that I would attack them.
6. In a dangerous situation, not only am I not expected to risk my life for others, but others are expected to risk their lives to save me.
7. I am permitted to cry and openly display my emotions without being insulted for it or viewed in a negative manner.
8. My income, either high or low, will likely never be a factor in my dating life and relationships.
9. If I choose to become a parent, people understand if I want to focus entirely on the personal, day-to-day care and nurturing of my children. It is the responsibility of my spouse to make sure I have this choice and support whatever choice I make.
10. I can expect to pay a significantly lower premium for car insurance than a man with a similar driving record would.
11. I am significantly more likely to graduate from college than I would be if I were a man.
12. As a woman, I am more likely to live longer than the average man.
13. I am significantly less likely to be injured on the job.
14. If I shy away from a fight, I will not be considered weak by my fellow peers.
15. My country will never force me to fight in a war I don't believe in.

[WillyT]

47. 16.) My Vagina Can Be Probed By Ultra-Sound By A "Christian Government"...

17.) I can be deemed a slut for daring to have sex outside of marriage.

18.) I can earn significantly less money for work equal and comparable to men because some shit-heads think I should be home tending to my children, even though said shit-heads fucked up and looted the economy so effectively that I, and my partner/husband, if I happen to BE SO BLESSED both have to work anyway to make ends meet, and then get ripped of a thousand or so per month for day-care for the honor of brown-nosing, dick-wads that have somehow managed to fail UPWARD, are total pricks/ who shorten our lives and make everyone around them god-damned miserable.

But hey... "I'm lucky to have a job."



Did I leave anything out ???

[Nye Bevan]

48. "In the event of a wartime draft, I am much less likely to be forced to serve in front-line combat".

"I am significantly more likely than a male to graduate from college".

"I have many more options available for clothes to wear".

[davidn3600]

49. The point is, it makes no difference....

The thing is.. very few people would change their gender. Very few people would change their race. Your gender and nationality is part of who you are as a person. You will never want to change those things regardless of your privilege or your status in the society.

No one has it easy in life. Men have advantages and disadvantages. Women have advantages and disadvantages. Arguing about who has it easier is pointless since neither has lived in the other's shoes.

Can we also ask if there are women out there who would rather be men? Why not ask that question? I imagine the number of women that would say yes they would rather be a man is quite small. Does that mean women are more privileged?

[WillyT]

53. And Ya Know What... That's A Fairly New Development...

Yeah... after the Suffragette Movement, the Civil War, Jim Crow, and the Civil Rights Movement, and because of all the suffering and struggle and progress we've made... people TODAY... probably wouldn't push any magical button to change who they are.

A significant sign of progress.

Is the push for progress over ???

I ask you.

[davidn3600]

72. That list pretty much shows we still have a lot of progress to make

But at least in terms of gender...it goes both ways. With race it's still largely skewed towards whites. But with gender, it's a different problem.

[WillyT]

74. Maybe... Yet When Did Males Have The Government Coming After Their Reproductive Rights ???

Are you currently under pressure to have a vasectomy ???

[davidn3600]

88. Yet 45% of women voted for Mitt Romney

A great number of women have no problems accepting certain aspects of the patriarchy. 45% of women are still voting for Republicans even though Republicans are fighting tooth and nail to take away women's rights. Doesn't make sense, does it?

95% of blacks and 70% of hispanics vote Democrat because they know the GOP is a bunch of regressive white men and full of shit. Why don't we have 90% of women voting with us?

Women have the ability to completely change the entire political direction of this country and make us a progressive nation. They can completely dismantle the patriarchy. They have that ability. Yet nearly half of them vote for the Republicans. I guess they are content with the status quo.

[WillyT]

96. "I guess they are content with the status quo." - Or... Maybe Our Job Ain't Done Yet...

Divide and Conquer, relies on a whole bunch of propaganda.

And those that have succumbed to the old, and those who accept the new BS, are still among us.

We need to enlighten.

[lumberjack_jeff]

120. What reproductive rights? n/t

[WillyT]

143. You're Kidding, Right ???

[lumberjack_jeff]

145. Assume for the moment that I am not.

What do you consider your reproductive rights to be?

[WillyT]

146. For Reproduction... I Have NO Rights... Because I Cannot Carry A Fetus To Term...

Any rights granted to ME, would be an invasion of the private decisions of a woman.

Because I CANNOT CARRY A FETUS TO TERM.

[lumberjack_jeff]

147. Government isn't "coming for your reproductive rights" by virtue of the fact you have none to take?

Just clarifying what, to you, constitutes "male privilege".

[WillyT]

149. Wow... You Catch On Quick... Males Cannot Give Birth... Asshole Males That Want To...

Regulate Birth... Will Have To Deal With Forcing Women To Abandon Their Choices About Birth...

Are you OK with that ???

[lumberjack_jeff]

150. I'm fully supportive and protective of reproductive choice.

When you tell me that I'm privileged because they're not going after my reproductive rights...?

I push back because, "duh!".

[WillyT]

151. So Tell Me... What Are YOUR Reproductive Rights ???

[lumberjack_jeff]

153. I'd agree. Zero.

I'll leave it for another thread to debate whether this is "a problem" or "the ideal situation".

Nevertheless, it's definitely not a +1 on the privilege-ometer.

[Major Nikon]

50. The problem with such lists found on the internet

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

9 million more men are unemployed.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t01.htm

The shittier, or more dangerous the job is, the odds are skewed even more. See #1 under female privilege.

3. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are insanely low.

Yet overall they are about the same if not better.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2449454/More-men-raped-US-women-including-prison-sexual-abuse.html

6. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

Not applicable at all to 99.999% of the population.

7. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex.

Elected by a majority female electorate.

11. As long as I have money, I dont have to be conventionally attractive to get attention from the opposite sex.

Women have the same privilege except if they don't it won't count against them.

14. I will likely make more money over my lifetime than a woman who does the same jobs.

Which means men are expected to be wage slaves rather than having the option of taking off to support the family.

15. The vast majority of movies and books will have my gender as the strongest, deepest, and most meaningful characters.

Also true for the dumbest and shallowest.

[Gormy Cuss]

52. True confession time.

I have a DU ideological crush on you, WillyT.

[WillyT]

73. Aw Shucks...

[kalisto2010]

109. If I were given the choice to switch from Black to White..

I would do it in a heartbeat. As a Black person who grew up in a predominately White town I seen first hand how many privileges my White friends had that I didn't. Even the White guys I grew up with since grammar school never treated me as a true blue as they did the other White guys who grew up with us. With that being said I love to be Black, I just don't like the social disadvantages of being Black in a predominately White town. Also, I was a below average athlete, and let me tell you, when you're a below average Black athlete you're really f&cked! That's because everyone expects you to be, and when you're not that look at you and treat you like you're piece of crap. That's why I hated my childhood. Still depresses me to this day. In our society as Black child, every time I turned on the TV and saw a Black person chances were that he was an athlete or entertainer, so I spent my entire life pursuing both, only to find out in my 30's that my cognitive dexterity was my gift. I still remember my White friends laughing at me telling me that I had White mans disease. Oh boy I'm glad those years are over. If believe if I were White, I think would of be accepted for who I was instead of what I should of been in the eyes of those around me.

[MrScorpio]

114. Louis CK - Being White

[cinnabonbon]

116. Funny that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

119. Let's ask a real question. If you could choose the sex of your child, what would it be?

Four out of five americans seeking sex selection services choose female. Kind of an odd choice for parents who truly believe themselves to live in a patriarchal, misogynist, male-privileged society, isn't it?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

139. from the article:

Dr Hale says the anecdotal evidence means it's difficult to predict why girls are more popular.

"You'd need to have more research as to why more US people are choosing girls –– is it mainly coming from families with a boy and want to balance it with a girl or were there religious reasons?" he said.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

123. This thread needs to be seen by every White Male DUer:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024319591

[lumberjack_jeff]

129. It's a better example of female privilege.

"People are advised to be on the lookout for a suspicious man. The man is described as black."

The subject of the manhunt is even more scary because he's black.

Shitty example of male privilege.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

148. I'll clear this up for ya, Willy. The people in this thread who flat out lie and assert that they'd

trade places with me--a black female--are really full of shit. They'd do no such thing. They know it. You know it. And I know it.

That's it.

K&R!!