Pope With the Humble Touch Is Firm in Reshaping the Vatican
By JASON HOROWITZ and JIM YARDLEY
JAN. 13, 2014
VATICAN CITY — Less than a year into his papacy, Pope Francis has raised expectations among the world’s one billion Roman Catholics that change is coming. He has already transformed the tone of the papacy, confessing himself a sinner, declaring “Who am I to judge?” when asked about gays, and kneeling to wash the feet of inmates, including Muslims.
Less apparent, if equally significant for the future of the church, is how Francis has taken on a Vatican bureaucracy so plagued by intrigue and inertia that it contributed, numerous church officials now believe, to the historic resignation of his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, last February.
Francis’ reign may not ultimately affect centuries-old church doctrine, but it is already reshaping the way the church is run and who is running it. Francis is steadily replacing traditionalists with moderates as the church prepares for a debate about the role of far-flung bishops in Vatican decision-making and a broad discussion on the family that could touch on delicate issues such as homosexuality and divorce.
...........
Four days earlier, Francis met with the Curia in the Sala Clementina, the 16th-century reception hall in the Apostolic Palace, to deliver one of the most important papal speeches of the year. Benedict used his last such Christmas address to denounce same-sex marriage. Francis used his first to castigate his own colleagues in the Curia.
He warned the men in red and purple skullcaps and black cassocks arrayed around him that the Curia risked drifting “downwards towards mediocrity” and becoming “a ponderous, bureaucratic customhouse.” He also called on the prelates to be “conscientious objectors” to gossip.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/14/world/europe/pope-with-the-humble-touch-is-firm-in-reshaping-the-vatican.html?_r=0
Pope Francis is redefining the role of the Catholic Church and attempting to bring a new transparency to the Vatican. If he succeeds, he'll be one of the most consequential Popes in decades.
= new reply since forum marked as read
He's trying to change a behemoth in a short time. It's like a little dinghy trying to pull a battle ship loaded with mines. One wrong move and poof!!!
I hope that those who do support him have his back. I don't trust the Curia.
I've seen other posts about the Pope on GD.
Sid
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1259&pid=4401Pope threads in GD…
Seriously, why are they being allowed in GD?
Skinner: Because the pope is big news. (nt)
and
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12594423
Skinner: (snip) "But it seems obvious to me that this pope is big news. It surprises me that anyone on DU would want the discussion censored. And if they really do want it to go away they could add the word "pope" to their trash can."
You want to argue with Skinner, go to "Ask the Admin" and explain to him why Pope threads you don't like don't belong in GD, and why you shouldn't have to follow his suggestion to add the word "pope" to your trash can. I look forward to his response.
Good luck!
In fact, it seems to me that a lot of folks are here just to GET pissed off!
But obviously, there are going to be some "trigger" things for people, whether that be rape, guns, dead children, abused animals, pedophile priests, the pope, the environment, pit bulls, breast feeding, Olive, Garden or fill-in-the-blank. (And I am not going to judge/minimize any of them because sometimes, it just depends on the day whether I am going to lose it over something other people may consider trivial.)
So blessed-be-the-admins, there is the "trash thread" feature, and rather than stifling discussion among those who *want* to have it, the "trigger folk" can use the tools given to make sure they are *safe*.
It is a good system.
Meanwhile, those of us who want to see changes in a very old system, or who believe that being aware of what "those opposed" think/say/do is important, who believe that CHANGE *has to happen* are going to continue to discuss these things.
I hated George W. as President, and firmly believed he damaged my country and its people, but I still paid attention to what that worthless pile of crap did. I believe the Church has had people in it who both damaged and benefited the world at various times in its history. I *hope* the current holder of the highest office in that organization, who is saying things that need to be said as steps on that path - "who am I to judge the sins of others, when we are all sinners?" as opposed to "STONE THEM!" - is going to help the cause of civil and human rights.
It is a start, and it could be a scam. In the meantime, it is news, and it is interesting, and it is important.
But if it offends or triggers, use the tools on this discussion board to "stay safe."
That is my opinion. Yours may vary.
So, YES, REALLY, pope threads are (currently) acceptable in GD.
If you don't like it, follow the Admin advice and add the word "Pope" to your trash threads.
Hope this helps.
Kindly note I am not disputing your opinion of the Pope - simply your attempt to play "purity police" on this discussion board.
I think you should feel free to voice your opinion of the Pope as much as you want; if you sound foolish, your opinion will be discounted as not-worth-listening-to, which is how discussion boards work.
But you are FACTUALLY INCORRECT, per the ADMINS of this site, when you say "Pope threads in GD belong on the religious forum," so attempting to bully people into silence because you are either MISTAKEN or LYING is not something I am personally going to ignore.
I hope you are simply mistaken; this is a busy board, and if you were basing your opinion on November information, I hope that by providing you with December data, you know there has been a clarification of policy. This is January - things might be different again soon.
In the meantime, I hope you have a good day.
The Vatican has chosen the first ever Argentinean Pope. So once again, a bunch of old white guys got a Hispanic to do a job they didn't want to do.
–Conan O’Brien
That is freaking BRILLIANT!
organization that oppresses women and gays and supports poverty and disease by opposing birth control joins your freakish lovefests to remind you what a disgusting organization you adore.
And truthfully, I do kind of "adore" this guy because he is standing up to a huge bureaucratic organization, and I'm hoping his David can beat the big bad Goliath who has been perpetrating the problems you are mentioning.
Only time will tell. And I am an eternal optimist.
which you might know if you were reading the articles, which is why he is the (one man) "David" to the (large entrenched bureaucratic organization) "Goliath" in the analogy. It may have been too obscure.
<-- intending to denote sarcasm at either of us being that unaware of a long standing cultural reference
My smilies are intended to show I am not taking discussion points as personal attacks, which probably irritated you when you were making the BLATANT (should we even pretend it was passive?) aggressive comment "your freakish love-fests to remind you what a disgusting organization you adore." I did the "roll on the floor" laughing guy, because I'm not Catholic, so it was funny in a "swing-and-a-miss" way. Again, since you were probably trying to insult me, I can understand why my amusement bothered you.
Bottom line, I'll give your opinion of the "creepy" smilies available to all posters on DU all of the consideration its due.
<-- intending to denote amusement that your opinion on "passive aggressive" matters
Either way, have a good day. You've made me smile, and sometimes, that is the best a person can do.
<-- intended to say good-bye, I won't take your hostility personally, and I wish you a good day
We'll see how he proceeds.
Sid
He's doing a lot more than talking.
I don't know if we'll ever find out what led to Benedict's resignation, but I always thought that there was a lot more to the story than his failing health. I think that he was coaxed to resign.
I hope that Francis is indeed able to make the changes that he wants to make before his time is up. He's vigorous, but a tad older than the average newly elected Popes of the past.
Do you think he was a "controllable" Pope (by the Curia) since he was so invested in the cover-up? Good at following orders, I mean? And if so, *who* was giving the orders behind the scenes?
Francis seems much more independent; obviously that could be a cover-up, but....?
I think that he's trying to make significant changes and I'm willing to wait and see what he can get accomplished.
Pope threads in GD…
Seriously, why are they being allowed in GD?
Skinner: Because the pope is big news. (nt)
and
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12594423
Skinner: (snip) "But it seems obvious to me that this pope is big news. It surprises me that anyone on DU would want the discussion censored. And if they really do want it to go away they could add the word "pope" to their trash can."
I look forward to the Pope (who is putting moderates in positions of power and has said "who am I to judge?" about gay people) CHANGING the standards of an institution that has traditionally been used to abuse people in the LGBT community. It is a slow process, but it looks like "baby steps" so we are extremely excited because before, there was only *backward* movement.
I might simply be optimistic. I hope I am right. Either way, we will continue to support civil rights for everyone.
If both the Right AND the Left hate someone, then they must represent the average person.
I am very interested in this "progressive Pope" but realistically, there is A LOT of cleaning up to be done, and I understand the cynicism many here exhibit. Hopefully as he starts addressing some of the corruption scandals that have made the church such an anathema to so many (booting pedophiles is a GREAT start), things will get better.
Keep posting!
Besides, no one is forcing anyone to read this post.
Because there are a lot of people expressing interest in this thread, and only a few who say they want to stay ignorant of events at the Vatican.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12594423
SKINNER: (snip) "But it seems obvious to me that this pope is big news. It surprises me that anyone on DU would want the discussion censored. And if they really do want it to go away they could add the word "pope" to their trash can."
So MY question: Why do you think YOUR opinion of the reading of the SOP is "better" than that of the GUY WHO WROTE IT?
Follow-up: And if it bothers you so much, why don't you just follow his advice and add "pope" to your trash can?
the Pope is more "political news" than religion, which makes sense to me. In a similar vein, I would have assumed threads about Mother Theresa would have been fine in GD, too, since they would have been about children and poverty and not about "why would anyone use their religious beliefs to try to fight those things FOR FREE"?
Seriously, not being sarcastic, why don't you go to "Ask the Admin" and get a clarification that makes sense to you? Ask him to spell out the difference between "Pope, Guns, Israel-Palestine and Conspiracy Theories" in his mind, since his opinion is the guiding force behind the enforcement of the rules. You can even reference him to this thread and my quoting him repeatedly.
Personally, I agree with him - the Pope is a world wide recognized figure, and he in charge of the "Papal State/Holy See." His opinions and that of the organization he runs influence the opinions of a billion people. Putting our fingers in our ears and chanting "la-la-la-I-can't-HEAR-you!" seems like foolishness to me.
I think the organization of the RCC is a big deal, just like management changes in other large corporations (to use an analogy) are a big deal because they impact the direction the company ends up going. And I *love* to read about him counseling on things like "who am I to judge" when asked about the "sin" ( 
) of homosexuality, or "greed versus poverty"; religious beliefs really impact the opinions of many people on issues of social justice.
But if you want Skinner to clarify, I once more abjure thee: Get Thee to Ask the Admin! At the end of the day, your opinion AND MINE are not the ones that count.
Talk to you later!
on a bigger scale, do you really want to never know about the folks who oppose equal rights?
Don't expect me to agree with everything the man says, Bluenorthwest. I'm not Catholic, I don't think anyone is "infallible", and I have different views on a lot of issues.
With that being said, there is *some* movement happening. Is it enough? NO! Is it a start? I hope so. Is it news? YES.
If you need to trash the thread because it just puts you in an understand rage, that is okay. Talking about different viewpoints doesn't mean people agree or support them. You can read any "Zimmerman" thread for proof of that - the people who talked about him were (mostly) not supporting his right to kill unarmed teenagers - and being interested in what the Pope is doing doesn't mean the people reading support all of his viewpoints, either.
We have a bunch of evangelicals who just made homosexuality a death sentence in one country, and we ALSO have the first "softening" of the Catholic church's position, with a hoped for "changing of the guard" in the people who come up with the opinions that will influence the next generation. Are we interested? Hell, yes! Does ANYONE on this board support policies that hurt the LGBT community? The answer had better be (per the admins and all decent people here) HELL, NO!
I don't like the fact this is such a slow, painful process, but it is going to happen. Baby steps....
I will be following your thread!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12594665
But I think the "8 posters" (and I'm not going to bother counting, so I trust your numbers) who are scolding at a thread with nearly a hundred replies and a thousand views are mistaken about whether it is interesting to the GD population, because it obviously *IS*, otherwise it would be dropping like a rock.
The original poster obeyed the rules put forth by the Admins (see the links in other posts). In my opinion, squawking about the fact you don't like someone obeying the rules *CLEARLY* spelled out by the Admins is rude and inappropriate.
If you want to discuss how Skinner runs this board, I suggest you take it up with him in "Ask the Admin." Now, if you want to join in the discussion and comment on the Pope pro or con, I personally support your participation 100%, and look forward to your insights. (I've read other stuff you wrote, Vashta, so I know you are capable and frequently interesting.)
What I don't support is criticizing the original poster because someone doesn't like how the Admins run the board. It just reeks of meta.
Use the trash or ignore feature if you need to; they are there for a reason. If the Pope pisses you off, one click and your day is better.
Mine is actually going well. Talk to you later!
progressive majority - like many of us do - They are against it
http://www.advocate.com/year-review/2013/12/16/advocates-person-year-pope-francis
that the Vatican conducts business. I thought that it was an interesting article. After all, the Catholic Church has over a billion members and some of them are members of DU.
The are certain things that will never change because they are dogma. The Church's stance on abortion is one, but I'm hoping that in time they will loosen their position on birth control.
Baby steps.
As for me, I was raised Catholic but have attended a Lutheran church for years. We are currently on our 4th woman pastor.
Response to Beacool (Original post)
That was actually not my intention. The Pope may be a religious leader, but he is also the head of an independent state know as the Vatican. As such, articles on the Pope's proposed fundamental changes to the running of the Vatican, could be arguably considered current events.
As for locks, alerts and ignores; what is the point of being on a discussion board if some seek censorship of posts that they disapprove?
