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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsExecuted Killer Dennis McGuire Gasped And Snorted For 15 Minutes Under New Lethal Drug Combo
Executed Killer Dennis McGuire Gasped And Snorted For 15 Minutes Under New Lethal Drug ComboBy ANDREW WELSH-HUGGINS - AP/HuffPo
01/16/14 11:07 AM ET EST
<snip>
LUCASVILLE, Ohio (AP) A condemned Ohio killer appeared to gasp several times during his prolonged execution with the first use of lethal injection process never before tried in the U.S.
Death row inmate Dennis McGuire made several loud snorting or snoring sounds during the more than 15 minutes it appeared to take him to die.
It was one of the longest executions since Ohio resumed capital punishment in 1999.
McGuire's stomach rose and fell several times as he repeatedly opened and shut his mouth.
McGuire's adult children sobbed a few feet away in a witness room as they watched him die.
<snip>
Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/16/dennis-mcguire-execution_n_4610582.html
TroglodyteScholar
(5,477 posts)Murder is ugly, especially when the state is the murderer. Maybe someday more people will come to see that we shouldn't be killing each other in the name of justice.
Amaril
(1,267 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)sick individuals eventually have to get put down because they are a danger to their own kind, themselves and every other creature around them.
Nobody ever said the death penalty was a delightful thing. Nobody ever said any jury thought it was a good way to rule. I think everybody, though, thinks there are crimes that nobody should be allowed to perpetrate, no matter what, on the society around them. That includes the jails they are housed in. Suppose you were serving a marijuana sentence with something like that? Do you want him to get loose to your side of the prison?
frylock
(34,825 posts)rather than continuing with state-sponsored murder.
William769
(55,146 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)see how easy that was?
William769
(55,146 posts)I'll even do one better do away with using these drugs to kill & go back to old sparky.
So I guess you know where I stand on this issue.
frylock
(34,825 posts)hold your head high with pride.
William769
(55,146 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)William769
(55,146 posts)Good for you!
ETA: You really need to sharpen that skill tough.
frylock
(34,825 posts)you support capital punishment, even knowing that innocent people have been, and will continue to be murdered by the state. there really is no grey area here.
William769
(55,146 posts)Have a nice day.
frylock
(34,825 posts)rationalize it in any way you like.
nobodyspecial
(2,286 posts)WTF?!?!? That is your response to innocent people being killed by the state?
As long as it's not you or one of yours, who cares, right? Disposable humans!
William769
(55,146 posts)The need. Yes it's not perfect, that doesn't mean we can't strive to make it perfect.
But like anything, we work with what we have. Given the process & the appeals stages, we are headed in the right direction.
I know there are many on here that disagree with me about the death penalty & thats fine, we will just have to agree to disagree.
kcr
(15,315 posts)We have the death penalty? Innocent people will die. It's not worth it. Yeah, agree to disagree, whatever, but the death penalty is one of those opinions I'm appalled by. I can't understand being okay with innocents dying. And the only progress getting made with the DP is that there is less and less of it.
BuddhaGirl
(3,605 posts)therefore innocents will continue to be subjected to state-sponsored murder.
Nice to know that some who advocate for equality are perfectly fine with our country being lumped together with the likes of North Korea, China, Saudi Arabia, Iran...etc. etc.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)look around the world.
countries that treat those in prison the worst, tend to treat all other minorities worse too.
it's not an accident.
William769
(55,146 posts)And the victims that were murdered had those rights taken from them in the most inhumane way.
You might as well be talking to a wall when talking to me because I will speak for those who can't speak for themselves anymore. You fight for who you want to and I'll fight for who I want to.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)I'd support doing things that do truly help a victim in a meaningful and positive way.
Money to them or loved ones, especially where the crime has harmed their income or been financially injurious.
Money to them or loved ones also for what they've gone through.
Supporting efforts to reduce crime in ways that work, and the death penalty, costly as it is, invests in something that ultimately doesn't do anything more than life imprisonment to stop crime.
It equates justice with death, which is actually something our society's murder rate shows we should be moving away from, rather than having the state sanction it.
The lowest crime rates are precisely where death is not a penalty.
The problem with killing to solve killing is that it tends to make the rest of us more like the criminal, not less.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)link(s) please
if there were a calendar with pages being ripped away to indicate the passage of much time smiley, I would have used it here, because I'm sure we'll see much time lapse before a post with legit links from CD appears
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)You I will not.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Thank you for acknowledging that.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Tommy_Carcetti
(43,181 posts)"The problem with killing to solve killing is that it tends to make the rest of us more like the criminal, not less."
TroglodyteScholar
(5,477 posts)...you will be the last person I want speaking out on my behalf.
I'm betting some share of murder victims were against capital punishment when they were living.
So maybe if you have respect for victims, as you truly seem to, you'll recognize that you can't speak for them any more than they can speak for themselves.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)innocent people turn me into what s/he is. I am better than that, which means being able to control emotions that lead people to commit these heinous crimes.
There's a reason why we are the only so-called civilized country on the planet that still views 'justice' as 'revenge'. Justice should never be tainted with revenge. Remove that person from society forever, state sanctioned murder is still murder. If you shot him on the street, regardless of his crimes, you would be charged with murder. I fail to see how having the stamp of approval of any government, makes it less of a crime. The DP is a Right Wing policy, brought to us by the 'law and order' far right Republicans who have basically been wrong about everything.
Fortunately there is less and less support for it since we learned how many innocent people have been wrongfully convicted.
Some day, hopefully soon, we will join the rest of the civilized world and end this barbaric practice.
get the red out
(13,462 posts)You are not alone. Psychopaths need to be put down, I have no pity for people who do the things this man did.
lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)suffering, and those that relish in that have issues I think.
What I do not understand is why didn't they just administer morphine. This whole situation was badly handled for sure, and definitely not humane
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)it's just designed to make us feel better.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)I believe the pursuit of "drug war" participants weakens our ability to stop actual crime. I'd rather have someone stop a rape, a murder or a bank robbery than arresting someone smoking pot. The smoking pot is much more simple of an arrest, though, isn't it?
littlewolf
(3,813 posts)TroglodyteScholar
(5,477 posts)This is precisely what we're doing, and have been since the beginning of "civilization," and I suppose even before. It sucks out loud, and we should be past it. Trying to fix violence with violence is fucking madness. Full stop.
I'll leave you to ponder your own hypotheticals. I don't really have any wiggle room in my opinion.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,181 posts)Instead, they'll be thinking, "Well his victim suffered and died so he should suffer and die too." And totally miss the irony of that type of thinking.
We live in an irony-deficient society.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Seems like a textbook definition of "cruel and unusual." Punishes the family of the perpetrator, too--as well as anyone watching from the sidelines.
Beheading or a firing squad would be more humane.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)well said. Distancing yourself from the inhumanity of eliminating a human parasite, which this guy was, does no good for society. I'm no fan of brutality, but there are some things that people do that deserve being put down like a sick animal gets put down. It isn't justice, it is kindness.
markpkessinger
(8,395 posts)But then, our society's objection to those methods has never really been about whether they were "humane" or not. Although people may couch their objections to methods like the firing squad or guillotine in terms of being concerned about executing people in a "humane" way, their real objection is that these methods make it harder for society to deny the violence of the act it is carrying out.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I do not deny it.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)markpkessinger
(8,395 posts). . . but I would say that capital punishment in general is barbaric, regardless of the method used.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)TERROR AT KNOWING YOU ARE LITERALLY GOING TO LOSE YOUR HEAD IS BEYOND CRUEL.
Hayabusa
(2,135 posts)for about 12 seconds? Not so quick if that is indeed true.
warrant46
(2,205 posts)Only not as long
Some say it should be a public spectacle as a deterrent.
Then it was called lynching on the Court House steps. Still popular in Indiana in the 1930s
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and being locked up with that. Not saying you will, but there is a chance. Now do you have a different point of view?
Are you talking about ?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)The people in prison part, or the violence that occurs in communities part.
warrant46
(2,205 posts)I see no prison part
and the part about Indiana--- what about that ?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I just played along. Wasn't trying to be mean, just playing
warrant46
(2,205 posts)Sometimes it gets tense around here a little humor helps too
Here is the Indiana link
I Didn't post the photo
http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0309/lm18.html
Lynching 1930
A mob of 10,000 whites took sledgehammers to the county jailhouse doors to get at these two young blacks accused of raping a white girl; the girls uncle saved the life of a third by proclaiming the mans innocence. Although this was Marion, Ind., most of the nearly 5,000 lynchings documented between Reconstruction and the late 1960s were perpetrated in the South. (Hangings, beatings and mutilations were called the sentence of Judge Lynch.) Some lynching photos were made into postcards designed to boost white supremacy, but the tortured bodies and grotesquely happy crowds ended up revolting as many as they scared.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)a satirist that 10,000 white people bashed a black person. Good Job.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)No? I think we have the ability to tell our own stories.
MADem
(135,425 posts)In Iran, they like to hang people--often right before morning prayer. They don't bother to build the gallows anymore (years ago, they used to do this); instead, they use a drott crane, and they attach the rope to the crane hook and give a sharp yank upward. Very upsetting but quick.
In SA, they still are fans of beheading.
China executes an untold number of people ("thousands," but they don't release their figures); USA has been on a downward slide over the last decade or so in terms of using the option, which is an improvement, anyway. Still a ways to go, but we're pikers compared to some.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)I agree with a bullet or chopping - way more humane that this experimental Mengele chemical gawdwfulness.
So sickened and saddened.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Here is where we agree wholeheartedly, Whisp. Either kill them or don't, don't keep screwing around making people guinea pigs. Hanging, beheading and shoot people has always been a method that wasn't horrible. Hate the crime, execute the criminal, but no need to let it linger.
Mrdrboi
(110 posts)Supposedly when someone gets head choped off in a quick fashion the head is alive for few sec. There is a reason why beheading is no longer a method of execution.
MADem
(135,425 posts)be "alive for few sec."
If I had a choice, and they were killing me, I'd say "Off with my head." No contest.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)None of it is acceptable, of course, in a so-called civilized society.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)in the animal kingdom included, puts down sick animals. As humans, we just have sick animals that have more power than they should. It's injustice to let a rabid, sick animal die a painful death and take others with that animal, why is this any different?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Also, it's been proven that at times the person executed was innocent. To me, if there is a chance of this, we shouldn't do it by giving the benefit of the doubt.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)He confessed to this horrendous crime and the DNA evidence was overwhelming against him.
I'm anti DP, but it this case, I'm not going to lose any sleep or show any sympathy for him.
I will express sympathy for his family, who witnessed this execution.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)When a person goes to prison, society punishes the family as well.
Ranchemp.
(1,991 posts)Response to Ranchemp. (Reply #14)
frylock This message was self-deleted by its author.
Other than solitary confinement, which is also fairly evil. It also endangers prison officials. Sometimes there is no good answer.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)maximum security for those kind of inmates. They still are being punished because they have lost their freedom and their every minute is micro-managed so they have essentially lost their life while they still have to live it, but not the way they want to. It's not up to us as a society to physically and mentally harm them. When we punish or execute a person like this, it is done in our name as much as if we wielded the metaphorical ax ourselves. I don't want to share responsibility in this.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)because it is mercy.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)You have said so repeatedly.
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)In case you were wondering.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)I have always found that people who are ardent supporters of state murder, are cut from the same cloth as the people they would have executed.
LongTomH
(8,636 posts)......."Jeezus H. Keerist!!!!! They want to chop this poor bastard's head off!!!!"
I bet we'd get fewer people on death row!
Cleita
(75,480 posts)less painful death than beheading or hanging. However, those who witnessed it had to see the gruesome aftermath of blood and severed head. That could influence a jury especially if the law said they had to witness the execution.
RC
(25,592 posts)legcramp
(288 posts)I wonder how long pregnant Joy Stewart may have been gasping and suffering while he raped and fatally stabbed her.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)It's that mentality that makes us such a violent culture...
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Locking someone up for years while they are an imminent harm to society were they to get out, including to those in jail with them, seems like going out of the way to make certain that you are putting down the right criminal.
hard to muster much sympathy.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)her murder, when she was 8 months pregnant.
But shall we have our government give torture as punishment? No.
Response to legcramp (Reply #6)
Name removed Message auto-removed
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)At least when he was doing it he wasn't calling it justice and pretending to be righteous.
donco
(1,548 posts)the 22-year-old newly married woman who was 30 weeks pregnant can now rest in peace now that this creature has been put down.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)And you have no way of knowing whether she would have wanted this execution to occur.
Friggin blood lust.
get the red out
(13,462 posts)This asshole will not be killing anyone else, Ohio took care of that.
neverforget
(9,436 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)Not yet resting in peace. Further, even if she was hanging around somewhere, who the fuck are you to presume that she shares your vengeful blood lust? Shame on you.
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)my compassion ends for that person....
840high
(17,196 posts)CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)Oh wait. No, I don't Hmmm, wonder what that was like being raped and stabbed. Dying in your mother's womb? I bet it was something terrible. I bet her husband and parents sobbed. I bet folks held vigils and decried the horrors of it all.
sendero
(28,552 posts)... for this maggot who not only did this crime (and how many others?) but tried to pin it on his brother in law. What a maggot.
I'm not sure why there is suddenly a problem getting the proper drugs to carry out executions but the only problem I have with the death penalty is the certainty of guilt. It was a certainty in this case so I'm not going to lose any poutrage over this.
jmowreader
(50,557 posts)Dash87
(3,220 posts)This sounds like the drugs failed and slowly suffocated him instead.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)no matter what they use. And each human beings physiology is different so the results will vary.
riqster
(13,986 posts)It had never been used anywhere in the world to execute someone, but somebody thought it maybe kinda sorta oughta work. And that is what happened.
If we are going to execute people, we should do it in a quick and clean manner.
Baitball Blogger
(46,703 posts)for some nefarious purpose.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)Period. Those who commit capital crimes should spend their lives in a high-security prison and be reminded daily of why they are there. That is my opinion.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)THAT's who I care about.
markpkessinger
(8,395 posts). . . manages to deal with these problems without resorting to state-sanctioned murder?
Look, I am 100% opposed to capital punishment, but I can't honestly say I lose a great deal of sleep over a case like this particular one. But here's the problem: although this case may seem to be cut-and-dried, and an "easy call" as it were, the fact of the matter is that many cases are NOT so easy. And there is no way to ensure that capital punishment will be used only in these "easy" cases. Trying to justify state-sanctioned killing by pointing only to the most egregious cases and cases in which there is virtually no doubt as to a defendant's guilt, without being able to justify it in those cases that aren't so easy or clear, is fundamentally morally dishonest, because there is no way to have one without the other.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)myself in the peculiar position of not giving a shit in certain beyond-doubt cases.
Like this one.
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)enlightenment
(8,830 posts)There is no wiggle room on this. You either oppose it or you support it.
MineralMan
(146,288 posts)I do not believe that the state should kill people convicted of crimes. There is too much chance of error, as has been demonstrated many times in the past. Lock up murderers and rapists, and the like for the remainder of their lives. Provide only the bare minimum needed to keep them alive and healthy, and remind them daily that they ruined their own lives and that they will spend the rest of their lives locked in a cage for their crimes.
I'm not anti-punishment. I'm only opposed death penalty.
TimeToEvolve
(303 posts)Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)No one expects you to have sympathy for him. But maybe we should have sympathy for ourselves that we feel the need to have the state carry out murder and brutality in our name.
HipChick
(25,485 posts)Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)HipChick
(25,485 posts)I think we need to execute more...what's the cost of keeping a prisoner on death row?
Arcanetrance
(2,670 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)so if that is your argument, life in prison is cheaper.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)I'm not arrogant enough to believe there's a 0% chance I could be executed for a crime I didn't commit. Given that I'm white and middle class, it's a slim chance, but I'd rather that chance be zero than slim.
Mrdrboi
(110 posts)He probably felt less pain than the victims did.
cinnabonbon
(860 posts)I feel really bad for his kids, who had to watch that. It's harder to muster sympathy for him, considering what he did... But ultimately, it's cases like this that makes me very anti-death-penalty.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)It seems to me that the act of killing someone, no matter what the method, is pretty cruel. How have the courts addressed that point, does anyone know? thanks.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)It can be cruel as long as not unusual. There has been slow chipping away at the death penalty in the US. For example, now mentally disabled defendants cannot be executed. Those who were juveniles at the time of the crime cannot be executed. And, only cases that resulted in death are eligible for execution.
Some means are cruel and unusual. The state could not execute by dismemberment. It is really only a matter of time that te US joins the rest o te civilized world in an outright ban on executions. It's a shame that so many blood thirsty vengeful people still by into this archane practice still.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)...but yes, you're right. It clearly says cruel AND unusual.
thanks, morningfog.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)broadcast on live TV.
Make the people see what their government does. Injecting people with drugs, and doing it out of sight, only makes others feel more humane.
Personally I'd opt for beheading if I had to die, screw injections.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)but I think so too, and I'm as liberal as they come. End it soon.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)you know why they moved behind prison walls? They used to be public and popcorn was sold and all. Because people grew increasingly opposed to them. So yes, they should be public. That is the fastest way to the end of the death penalty indeed.
And I am as opposed to it as it comes. Zero effects on future crimes, and they are far more expensive to carry out than life in prison, and damn it, we do make mistakes and execute innocent people from time to time, or people who do not know what they did. (as in mentally challenged)
dionysus
(26,467 posts)high powered benzo and synthetic morphine...
MADem
(135,425 posts)People die of overdoses all the time, unintentionally. How hard would it be to kill them off with the stuff deliberately?
dionysus
(26,467 posts)to do so.
these guys were using a powerful benzodiazepine and synthetic morphine... all they had to do is crank up the dosage...
MADem
(135,425 posts)down, say, a horse.
pansypoo53219
(20,976 posts)meh.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)What is this eye for an eye, 400 BCE?
Lost_Count
(555 posts)lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)the victims? I take it you are for cruel and unusual punishment.
I am not making an argument for or against the execution, but if the execution is done it should be done with the least amount of suffering, otherwise we are no better than they are
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Crawl back to whatever sick hole you came from.
Response to morningfog (Reply #109)
Post removed
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Whatever people think about Capital Punishment, this is insanity. All this effort and pageantry that goes into executions to pretend they're clinical and humane is grotesque.
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)Murdering pigs.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Must have been horrible for the watchers, though the guy had to have been sound asleep & snored for a while.
Midazolam-Is used before surgery or certain medical tests to make you sleepy, drowsy, or relaxed.
Hydromorphone-Treats moderate to severe chronic pain. This medicine is a narcotic analgesic.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Let them personally walk headfirst into oblivion and then vanish into nothingness. It would be the method I would choose.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)End capital punishment nationwide.
mokawanis
(4,440 posts)The idea that it's ok to kill someone to make the point that killing is wrong, is barbaric and insane.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)that being said, years ago I worked on forensic psych unit and some of those folks were a danger to staff and required extended periods of time in a seclusion room or restraints.
I don't know what is more or less humane.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)That is not uncommon in natural deaths, I did hospice nursing for a few years and sat with several people who died, also family members, there's sometimes a period of cheyne-stokes breathing that could appear to be snoring/snorting with periods of apnea and agonal breathing. This does not mean the person is conscious or aware. I am not condoning the death penalty by the way.
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)...for those who haven't seen one. It should not be interpreted as him experiencing any pain or discomfort.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Barack_America
(28,876 posts)Even if people are loaded up on narcotics (hence, not feeling pain), they will do these agonal breaths. It's a natural thing and should not be interpreted as pain or discomfort. This is what the body does as it shuts down.
Hayabusa
(2,135 posts)we should make the death of the individual as humane as possible. This new combination clearly isn't.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)The old cocktail was often botched and left the condemned suffering for an hour or more in pain, but there were simply no symptoms because they had a paralysis drug in there. With animals they use a single drug and there's lots of violent movement but no pain.
I'm 100% against capital punishment in all circumstances, so I'm not defending this, just trying to get a better understanding.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)while, personally, I think there are cases requiring the DP, I can't support it as a policy because it's documented that innocent people get caught up in it.
hitler? sure. other than that...
NM_Birder
(1,591 posts)Fuck him......Fuck him right in both ears.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)They choke and gurgle and gasp for air, and it is most inhumane. I would be more interested in seeing a more humane method for these innocent people to die than to worry about what happens when the killer dies.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)of propofol and fentanyl drips, so she was out cold. still, it was the ugliest thing I have ever watched.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)from the way they pushed it on us. But it was so horrible.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)can only describe as a "death rattle" (my dad fairly collapsed and I almost puked, but held it together). i'll never be able to forget it, but I know she was in no pain.