Isn't it weird how Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren support Obama

[Pretzel_Warrior]

On a wide range of issues and have registered their support of Hillary Clinton but many of their nationwide fan base are almost always attacking Obama and looking for ways to undermine Hillary?

I sure find it interesting.

[1StrongBlackMan]

1. Suggests something, doesn't it? n/t

[delrem]

4. yup. plenty of innuendo. no substance, tho'. nt

[ConservativeDemocrat]

85. Much like the "innuendo" that birthers are racist...

...some things don't exactly require explaining.

It isn't exactly news that there are handfuls of noisy frustrated Communists in the U.S. who only support Democrats as the least of what they consider evil, and who laud outspoken of liberal Democrats as the most acceptable form of capitalist evil. That these Democrats are, however, still far more constructive and effective in their advocacy for the pendulum to swing back, than Communists are for ridding the world of free trade entirely, also isn't exactly news.

Go to revleft.com, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[delrem]

112. "communists"? Red baiting? Jeez, is this the 1950's???

[NuclearDem]

114. The 1950s called, they want their red baiting back.

[TBF]

115. lol - count your piles of $$$ now

because if we ever gain power it is going to be redistributed widely. In fact we may just do away with currency completely and have a resource based economy.

Here's some interesting reading to really blow your "reality based" mind -- http://www.thevenusproject.com/

Only a "handful" indeed.

[orpupilofnature57]

98. +1000 !!!!

[Armstead]

2. Weird? They agree with him when they agree, they disagree when they disagree

Not very mysterious at all.

The world isn't always either/or.

[tblue]

8. Lotta people think you have to swallow someone whole

Not sure why, but a lot of people think that way. I hope I never do. I can't imagine it.

[ZombieHorde]

47. Mystery solved in two posts!

Awesome.

[Scuba]

68. +1

[Rex]

87. For some people, everything is binary and the people that don't

live in a black and white world like themselves are their enemy. I know, sounds stupid but that is how they view it. Thankfully those types are easy to spot.

[immoderate]

3. In a sense, it's that "excluded middle."

Yes there is some overlap, but the Clintons and Obama lean on the same DLC retreads. As superior to any Republican as Hillary is, that doesn't mean I trust her.

--imm

[arely staircase]

5. no

not in the real world

[ForgoTheConsequence]

6. You know what's really weird?

When you take a poop and then look in the toilet to find nothing there.

Ghost poops.

[tblue]

9. TMI

Eeew!

[morningfog]

10. What a perfect metaphor for the OP.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

11. I'm ba-aaaaaack!!! Muahahahahaha!!!

And after only a 10 day break. I see you contributed to the elevated debate while I was gone.

[morningfog]

13. I have no idea what you are yammering about, but

welcome back. Enjoy your stay.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

17. I was referring to your posts leading up to my break

Where you indicated DU would be transformed into a peaceful repository of uplifting dialogue during my absence.

I read the board during those days and didn't notice an appreciable change in tone on DU.

Perhaps you should just put me on ignore and I'll be on permanent vaycay in your perception.

[morningfog]

21. Ah, that is why the air felt cleaner recently.

I don't put people on ignore when I know they will provide me with good alertable material.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

23. I figured you were one

Of them. Thanks for admitting to it. You have so much to offer. Why don't you start OP's on your worldview rather than merely lying in wait to alert on people who rub you the wrong way?

[morningfog]

26. You mean flame bait OP's like yours?

Sad worldview you have. And, don't flatter yourself. There is no rubbing from you. This is a community board with community enforced standards. Don't blame the community because you are unable to adhere to the very minimal standards that there are. When I see people who are here solely to flame bait and stir shit, I happily participate in the community enforcement, whether by serving on a jury or alerting when a post clearly crosses a line.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

30. 2 out of my last 5 alerts crossed no lines

I was attacked for
Having a point of view and juries chose to err on the side of "why not? He's not progressive enough so let's just show him a thing or two".

Don't pretend you have an impartial stance toward me and are merely "upholding community standards". Otherwise you wouldn't have congratulated the toilet humor one of the posters replied with.

My post posed a serious challenge to those who bash Obama >90% of the time. The fact that you chose to see it as flame bait says more about you than me.

[HangOnKids]

50. Good fucking GAWD!

Juries thought your posts were worthy of a hide but you are the victim? Get a grip, nobody attacked you.

[morningfog]

64. Did the juries say that? I doubt it.

Don't use try to use your non-progressivism to cover your violations of community standards. I don't know because I want the alerter on those posts.

Posters don't get posts hidden because they are centrists or party liners. They get posts hidden for rudeness, being over the top and personal attacks.

And almost without exception, your OPs are flame bait, this one inclueded. It seeks to divide and attack DUers who have criticized the president's positions, but have been supportive of the two more liberal senators. It offers nothing of substance.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

72. Thanks for your OPINION on my op. others disagree

With your assessment.

[morningfog]

77. And others agree.

We ALL know the what the reality is.

[Rex]

89. "Enjoy your stay."

You are too kind.

[NuclearDem]

116. And yet you seem determined to go on another break.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

118. Other than expressing my opinions without hesitation

What about my posting leads you to believe that? I'm keeping it about the issues, not calling people out, etc. so what do you mean?

[progressoid]

34. OMG, you are so right.

[Egalitarian Thug]

58. Oh sure, but take a big, deep whiff.

It still smells like what it is.

[markpkessinger]

7. Sanders has also been very critical of Obama on many issues . . .

. . .most recently, he blasted both parties, and by extension President Obama, over Obama's pet project, the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement, and while he has credited the President's proposed NSA reforms as being "a start," he clearly believes, as do many here, that the proposed reforms don't go nearly far enough in addressing the constitutional concerns.

Further, I think you will find that those of us who are big supporters of Sanders also support the President on some issues. Your attempt to characterize Sanders and Warren supporters as being reflexively anti-Obama is fundamentally dishonest.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

12. I only judge it based on what my own eyes see and my

Own eyes hear. I am not alone in noticing certain trends.

[BlueCaliDem]

31. Nope. You're not alone at all. eom

[Luminous Animal]

14. Isn't it weird how they also criticize some of his policy directions and decisions.

[polichick]

53. Yeah, sort of like the posters that worked for him, voted for him...

and still criticize some of his policy directions and decisions. Wow, weird!

[freshwest]

15. Not weird, neither was it when Kucinich did. Different job titles. Respect all of them.

Obama brought Warren to Washington, D.C.:



Elizabeth Warren's Full DNC Speech - Elections 2012

More from Warren on Obama:

MISS THIS? Last Week, Obama Endorsed Bernie Sanders’ Citizens United Overhaul (from 2012)



...Of the many questions he answered, perhaps most intriguing to progressives was his endorsement of Sen. Bernie Sanders’ Saving Democracy Amendment, a constitutional amendment that tackles campaign finance reform and specifically overturns the Supreme Court’s Citizens United v. FEC decision.

Although he admitted there is only a small chance that the amendment would pass, it does give a boost to a conversation about dark money and it’s place in the American political spectrum. Answering a participant’s question, Obama stated:

“Money has always been a factor in politics, but we are seeing something new in the no-holds barred flow of seven and eight figure checks, most undisclosed, into super-PACs; they fundamentally threaten to overwhelm the political process over the long run and drown out the voices of ordinary citizens. We need to start with passing the Disclose Act that is already written and been sponsored in Congress – to at least force disclosure of who is giving to who. We should also pass legislation prohibiting the bundling of campaign contributions from lobbyists. Over the longer term, I think we need to seriously consider mobilizing a constitutional amendment process to overturn Citizens United (assuming the Supreme Court doesn’t revisit it). Even if the amendment process falls short, it can shine a spotlight of the super-PAC phenomenon and help apply pressure for change...”

Sen. Sanders Saving Democracy Amendment states:

SECTION 1. The rights protected by the Constitution of the United States are the rights of natural persons and do not extend to for-profit corporations, limited liability companies, or other private entities established for business purposes or to promote business interests under the laws of any state, the United States, or any foreign state.

SECTION 2. Such corporate and other private entities established under law are subject to regulation by the people through the legislative process so long as such regulations are consistent with the powers of Congress and the States and do not limit the freedom of the press.

SECTION 3. Such corporate and other private entities shall be prohibited from making contributions or expenditures in any election of any candidate for public office or the vote upon any ballot measure submitted to the people.

SECTION 4. Congress and the States shall have the power to regulate and set limits on all election contributions and expenditures, including a candidate’s own spending, and to authorize the establishment of political committees to receive, spend, and publicly disclose the sources of those contributions and expenditures.

http://wepartypatriots.com/wp/2012/09/03/miss-this-last-week-obama-endorsed-bernie-sanders-citizens-united-overhaul/

Obama spoke on United Citizens the year it was decided by the USSC, and supported the Disclose Act which was filibustered. Obama said a Constitutional Amendment would be very hard to pass, but could help mobilize the public.

We saw the effects in 2010 as the dark money took over all the elections in the states and congress. We are still living with the fallout, and it has not let up one bit since that year. It was another coup by the conservative court.

I've seen Kucinich personally stand up for Obama, saying he is a progressive and has a different job than his. That he would do his, just like Obama does his.



Kucinich Asks Supporters To Back Obama As Second Choice In Iowa



03/28/08

Dennis Kucinich advised his supporters Tuesday that if he failed to garner enough backers in the first round of the Iowa caucuses, they should throw their support behind Sen. Barack Obama...

"I hope Iowans will caucus for me as their first choice this Thursday, Kucinich said in a statement to the press. "But in those caucus locations where my support doesn't reach the necessary threshold, I strongly encourage all of my supporters to make Barack Obama their second choice. Sen. Obama and I have one thing in common: Change..."

In a statement emailed out to reporters, Obama thanked the veteran Ohio Congressman for his support.

"I have a lot of respect for Congressman Kucinich, and I'm honored that he has done this because we both believe deeply in the need for fundamental change," said Senator Obama.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/01/kucinich-asks-supporters-_n_79088.html

The desire to present any of these people as enemies is a big fail, or just ignorant. There is no daylight between them on things that matter. They know the big picture and are doing their part.

Media is working to divide Democrats for the GOP. Thank goodness our elected officials are not fooled and are each doing their part and working in their own way.

Cheers for all these united Democrats.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

16. These are great! Thanks for adding them

[freshwest]

18. Don't let the media divide us. We must be united! n/t

[Pretzel_Warrior]

20. I agree! I'm a great supporter of Sanders, Warren, Wyden, Obama,

Clinton, Franken, Leahy and so many terrific Democrats.

[JDPriestly]

37. We are Americans. We don't have to walk in lock-step with any leader.

We are Americans. We are free -- to dissent, to criticize and to support only when we think our leadership is right.

I support Obama on many things, but I disagree with him on many other things. Were Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren in the White House, I would probably also disagree with them on many things. That would not change the fact that I would support many of their proposals.

At this time, I agree more with Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren than with Obama on a number of issues. That is OK. That is the American way of government.

For me, the mystery is that any American would be puzzled by my point of view on this issue. My point of view on loyalty and on my freedom to agree with a leader on some issues and prefer someone else's view on those same issues is absolutely normal for any thinking American, especially for any thoughtful and intelligent American.

What I do not understand is how anyone can agree with another person on all issues or profess to do so. That is humanly impossible. And if you don't agree with a leader on all issues, you have a responsibility to consider why you do not agree and express your opinion. Democracy does not end at the ballot box. Democracy is a way of life every day all the time. Democracy means that we are responsible for the policies that our nation implements. We are partners in our government although our roles are less direct than those of our elected officials. But we are fulfilling our civic duties when we express our opinions on issues of public policy.

[Jamaal510]

25. +1

[Cha]

52. Brilliant post, freshwest.. thank you!

[redqueen]

102. This would make a fantastic OP.

Hint, hint.

Kudos from this Kucitizen.

[freshwest]

103. Give me a good title and I'll try for it. n/t

[sheshe2]

119. Excellent!

[WorseBeforeBetter]

19. "Fan base"?

Tiger Beat, ba-by!

[pscot]

22. Politics makes strange bedfellows

I think that's from Poor Richard's AAlmanac.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

24. And Tip O'Neal Rodriguez who said

All politics is loco.

[Thinkingabout]

27. Elizabeth Warren is a Democrat and Bernie Sanders is registered Independent but votes mostly

Democrat I do not find it weird they are on the same page as Obama and Hillary.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

28. That was only the first part of my statement

The first part I don't find weird.

[Jamaal510]

29. They all

are ultimately supportive of many progressive causes and are deeply loathed by the Right. Considering freshwest's post about how well they collaborate with and support each other, it's unbelievable to me that there seems to be this much of a rift between all their supporters on DU and elsewhere.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

32. Agreed!

[Number23]

33. The "rift" is as imagined as it ever was.

Want to start a shit storm in this forum? Post the president's approval rating among Democrats, particularly liberal ones. The folks that do absolutely nothing but trash this man on every move that he makes on the basis that they "represent" the "left" and the president is not "left" enough will absolutely SEETHE. Ripping off the sheet they've tried so hard to put over everyone's heads is a surefire way to invoke their impotent ire.

I strongly support this president. I don't know all that much about Warren but what I've seen of her so far seems quite good. Very passionate about regulation and protecting the most vulnerable which is always good to me. And Bernie Sanders is on my list of good guys in Congress as well. I've not heard too many instances where he said something that I disagree with. In all of this, I represent probably the vast majority of Democrats and the folks that SHOULD be posting on this web site. Instead, we see relentless attempts by bored... whatever these folks are to divide. It's really pitiful.

[freshwest]

38. I don't think Democrats are sowing division or are afflicted with ODS. Both would be illogical.

To continously deride and allege evil intent of the leader of one's group, shows one is not trying to convince a person to support that group.

An example I gave once was like a waiter telling everyone how horrible the cook at the restaurant is, then expect the customer to gladly make an order. It will not work, why should it work in politics?

We've got a constant choir in media paid by the GOP or Koches, to drag down our ideals and ideas. The current is constant and negative. And there are likely those who support other parties that have their own idea of what a liberal is, such as libertarians. This site is not exclusive to Democrats, obviously.

Trashing Obama and Democrats is a learned thing from media. People know instinctively that it's the faux majority in this country that never give Obama or the Democrats the benefit of the doubt. They won't flex their minds or hearts to consider that the man may be doing the right thing, or that he is working for us, or that he is moral or competent, so they ascribe all the worst motive to thim. So they reflect that here, to curry favor among those who listen to the same.

I see this in public places, It is hard to speak with enthusiasm about Obama, as one expects to be attacked. so support is often qualified with 'buts' or apologies. There is nothing to apologize for, but it's like meeting with Flat Earthers. You can tell they have been brainwashed and don't like to have that belief questioned.

The one they got from thousands of hours of television, radio, magazines, papers and online. Every subliminal technique has been used to make people ashamed of liking Obama. Or the Democrats. From ugly pictures and repeated polls online that suggest that Obama has done a heinous thing or is planning to do something, it takes a toll.

I'm as proud of this President as anyone could be, because I actually listen to what he actually has to say, what he means, and not the second-hand gossip that infects online message boards, and I know I am going to sneered at - all for no good reason, just the pack doesn't want to hear anything that deviates from what they think is normal.

It's not all that smart to stop thinking and analyzing. For me, I understand that life and people, like theatre, requires one try to look at things with an open mind and heart, or in the case of fiction or movies, a 'suspension of belief.'

This is something I've done repeatedly to get to how a person thinks to work with them on various projects. I'll stick with a theatrical exmaple. When one watches science fiction, one suspends belief often. Star Trek has many consructs that one had to accept to follow that reality: People and things can be converted into energy and transported across deadly space or great distance and survive. That people could travel beyond the speed of light, that weaponry and force fields were technologically possible and also practical. That's a leap of imagination.

So I go with the person, get to know them and accept their beliefs, work with those beliefs and see if they make any sense. then make my decision on 'who's kidding who' later. Like following CT, which often says Obama is out to get us all for no reason that' proveable, but part of the mythology.

Many believe this as firmly as some do Creationism, the Second Coming or the Virgin Birth of Christ. It's a new cult of belief, all data is put through that filter.

EarlG made a good image on a subject we'd tried with research and reasoning to get through to some who could not believe that Obama was doing the right thing on Syria, or Libya, or Afghanistan. Many were all fixated on conclusions that did not match up with the facts:



Remember that spell here? It always goes in currents, sometimes like tidal waves and other times just annoying, mosquito nipping and water dripping.

That may not make a lot of sense to you. But I've got to get to bed. Take care, Number 23.

[JDPriestly]

40. You say

"I'm as proud of this President as anyone could be, because I actually listen to what he actually has to say, what he means, and not the second-hand gossip that infects online message boards, and I know I am going to sneered at - all for no good reason, just the pack doesn't want to hear anything that deviates from what they think is normal."

I listen to what this President says, but I also watch what he does. I remember when he said in the final weeks before the text of the ACA bill was presented that he wanted a public option. Shortly after that, the ACA bill was published. There was no public option. There still is no public option.

Obama talks beautifully, but his actions and his efforts to realize the policies he talks about too often fall far short.

That is the problem with Obama. Agreeing with what he says is easy. But agreeing with what he does after he talks his talk is challenging.

Granted he has a difficult Congress to deal with, but still he should fight much harder for the good policies that he proposes. Of course, many of his speeches discuss some sort of vague proposal that is worded so that each listener can hear what he or she wants to hear.

[Number23]

42. Oh, I remember that image. It was bang on correct and set the usual suspects howling

And I completely agree with you. I don't think it's Democrats sowing the division either.

[joshcryer]

46. Those considered ODS = right wing infiltrators.

I do not consider one of them honest in their criticisms, since I can prove that they have lied to DU on many occasions. Each poster has downright lied. Not from ignorance, not from being misled, they have actually perpetuated a right wing lie to push their agenda. I don't have a physical list but it's mentally ingrained, and I can evoke it when necessary. Those posters are either here for drama and trolling (basically to tweak anyone who doesn't follow their perceived 'progressive' view) or they are infiltrators, intended to fuck with DU as a whole. It's probably 50/50. We know that the CC has moles here fucking shit up for their own enjoyment, as they have openly admitted it and have had their moles / socks banned.

[Fumesucker]

51. Go ahead and post your *list* Josh

If you don't you are just blowing smoke.

[joshcryer]

54. I can only name a few off the top of my head.

My favorite is the great Emmanuel Goldstein which franksolich is likely conjuring. Connect the dots, it's pretty obvious.

Otherwise I can't make the argument, because the true trolls cover their tracks impressively. Just give it time. Like "Better Believe It" their true form will be seen. 2016 will be awesome.

It's more intuition than a physical list. I don't make lists of suspects like some more devious people might. Most of the trolls are irrelevant to me as they can't make a persuasive argument if their life depended on it. It's about dividing DUers and I lose interest quick.

[Fumesucker]

56. Jealousy is a very destructive emotion

Manny points out where reality and rhetoric don't coincide and it's clear that drives some posters here right around the bend.

Sometimes I try to drop the defensive attitude and communicate more candidly with posters I disagree with a lot, my efforts seldom get dignified with so much as a reply.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4350076

Trust me, I have been here long enough to learn how to write an OP that will disappear like it fell into a black hole.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024353051

[BainsBane]

71. I have to confess

wondering about that myself, but I wouldn't go so far as to make an accusation. It's so easy to be wrong.

[pintobean]

100. Not here, anyway.

But, wrong is wrong, no matter where the accusations are made.

[Autumn]

76. franksolich? Are you saying Manny is a mole at the Cave?

[pintobean]

79. That's much more likely

than the other way around. Frank isn't that sharp.

[Autumn]

82. Well it's not Manny, because Manny is very sharp, and Manny has one

hell of a sense of humor. Something sadly lacking over there, and with a couple of posters that have been posting there.

[pintobean]

84. Yeah, Manny would really have to

dumb down to pull that off.

[Autumn]

113. He would have to do more than dumb down.

That's for sure.

[MannyGoldstein]

88. Hmmm... thanks for putting *Goldstein* in italics

It helped me finally realize... Manny's probably a Jew. Just intuition, but that would really connect the dots, eh?

Regards,

Two-can-play-that-game Manny

[JDPriestly]

39. Criticizing some of the President's policies does not constitute a "rift" between us and the

President. Some of his policies are weak. He has not appointed nearly enough solidly progressive individuals during his presidency. He has even unfairly fired people that the press claimed were too far to the left. I am proud to say that I criticize Obama when I think he is wrong.

Democrats work together and need to work together, but I like Bernie Sanders' and Elizabeth Warren's points of view on many issues such as the economy, the banks, Wall Street, Social Security and many other issues. I do not agree with President Obama on some of those issues. He is sometimes soft on bankers and too ready to "cooperate" with Republicans especially on fiscal and intelligence issues, translate give in to Republicans without getting much in return.

I hope this clarifies the issue raised in the OP.

[NancyDL]

48. I strongly agree with everything you've written in this post.

We libs have good strategists and good brains, but our political behavior is often both illogical and destructive to the objectives we claim to be working toward. Thanks.

[Number23]

105. Thanks Nancy. And I agree with every word that you've written

But I don't know what so many of the people around here are. "Liberal" is certainly not the word I would use to describe them though I couldn't agree more with the "illogical" and "destructive" comments in your post.

I don't think people that immediately crap over every thing this president does, pine for the "Good Old Days" when people of color and women were often viciously subjugated, and openly long for chaos under the pretense that America will be "rebuilt" after it's been destroyed can in any way shape or form be considered liberals. A poster here used the term "nihilists of the left" and alot of folks agreed with him.

[freshwest]

107. That second paragraph says it all! Thanks. n/t

[JI7]

61. you wont see most Obama supporters criticizing those, even if they are critical of Obama as Sanders

has been at times.

the problem i see is that some who claim to support people like Warren don't really support her. they only use her as an attack on other Democrats. there is never anything that is just pro warren from them and actually trying to get support for her. it's always just used as n attack on a democrat.

i see these dems as totally different from greenwald, snowden and the sleazy assange. i have no respect for these .

[JDPriestly]

35. Maybe Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are not really hero worshipers and maybe they

don't dislike Obama. Maybe they just want the best for our country and believe that Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren would be the best among the choices we might have in 2016.

As for Hillary, oh dear, I for one hope we get a better candidate than Hillary.

[joshcryer]

45. They're politicians. Sanders is probably against the NSA.

But he can't state so publicly because he's a ... politician.

So he's all "let's reform the NSA" and even "violating secrecy oaths is bad." That's totally against what most DUers would believe in the end.

[JDPriestly]

60. He remembers the cold war and WWII unlike many DUers who are too young to remember that

time really.

I doubt that he hates the NSA. Like me, he would just like to see the NSA comply with, obey and follow the Constitution. They aren't right now.

Here is the recording of the press conference held by the mature and experienced NSA whistleblowers that followed the Obama speech on the NSA changes.

These guys are mature and know the technical aspects of what they are talking about.

The recording is long, but every word of it is enlightening and worth listening to.

http://new.livestream.com/accuracy/nsa-rebuttal/videos/39824993

Interestingly they say that Obama keeps referring to the 'program,' but point out that the NSA has many programs. They say that the NSA is definitely capturing not just metadata but also the content of our calls and communications, a fact they claim is proved by the size of the building being constructed in Utah to house the data they are collecting. It is too large, much too large to just be intended for holding metadata without all of the content, they say.

It is extremely interesting.

[joshcryer]

62. If he really is a socialist, he'd be against the NSA.

That I truly believe.

The NSA is reading metadata, but they are literally storing all plaintext form posts on the internet. This post and your reply and our discussion is 100% being stored by the NSA at this very moment. Whether it leads to the NSA causing a warrant to be issued on either of us remains to be seen.

[JDPriestly]

67. Yes.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

69. That's just nonsense.

Attitudes to distribution of wealth and taxation/public spending, and attitudes to the extend of the surveillance powers of security and intelligence organisations, have nothing to do with one another - they're wholly orthogonal issues.

Come to that, if anything historically there's been a positive correlation between being a socialist state in the original meaning of the term, and having intelligence agencies with extremely wide and intrusive powers.

I think what you mean is "if he agreed with me, he'd be against the NSA" - or possibly, more charitably, "if he were really a liberal, he'd be against the NSA".

[woo me with science]

74. Thank you.

[ProSense]

95. You're questioning whether Senator Sanders is a socialist? n/t

[woo me with science]

97. Appreciating the acknowledgement that NSA is sweeping up everything possible.

There's a lot of lying propaganda around trying to obscure how vast and ugly and predatory and utterly incompatible with the Constitution the surveillance machine really is.

I disagree with joshcryer on many things, but I very much appreciate his honesty on this issue.

[Bluenorthwest]

70. Here is his statement post Obama's speech, Bernie's actual position

U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) issued the following statement after President Barack Obama announced new measures on the oversight of government surveillance programs.

“I appreciate the president’s willingness to examine this important issue but I think that his remarks did not go far enough. There is no question in my mind that the collection of data on every phone call made in the United States is unconstitutional and a violation of the Fourth Amendment and that the government has engaged in massive violations of civil liberties and privacy rights.

“I am concerned about the chilling effect such wholesale surveillance has on Americans’ everyday activities. I do not want writers, students and even our children worried that the books they read, the Internet sites they visit, the petitions they sign will be conceived by the government as anti-American or dangerous.

“Let me be clear: In my view terrorist acts against the United States and other countries remain a serious threat and we have to do everything we can to protect our safety, but I am convinced we can do that without undermining the privacy rights of the American people.

“We need a strong national conversation on this issue and I am delighted that on Feb. 1 I will be bringing to Montpelier, Vt., some of the leading civil liberties experts in the country for a town meeting with Vermonters to discuss this issue.
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-statement-on-obamas-review-of-intelligence-gathering


His 'support' includes saying Obama's plan is not enough, unconstitutional and chilling to American's everyday lives.
It is possible to say 'I agree with the President fully' but that's sure not what he said.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

99. If disagreements about the NSA here on DU we're as reasoned and polite as Sanders

Comments, I don't think many would quibble. In fact, there are many here who haven't been sucked in to the Snowden/Greenwald fan base who are also greatly troubled by NSA programs and who are happy this is being addressed in the light of day.

[Bluenorthwest]

110. I have no idea what you are saying in this post, but your OP does not mesh with Sanders' own

words. He says the President's policy is insufficient, unconstitutional and chilling to everyday life in America. That's not polite, it's damning.
You just got back from a vaycay having to do with your own interpersonal communications skills so your ideas about who is polite or what constitutes politeness might not be considered the sterling standard by discerning shoppers right about now. Sputtering about individuals who are not part of the OP and are not related to Mr Sanders does not help your case, nor does it seam reasoned, nor polite. It seems rude and nonsensical. Dragging in other items when you don't like the evidence given you.
Your stance in the OP does not jibe well with Senator Sander's actual words and statements, so I posted his actual words . You, all politeness and reason, sputter about Snowden and Greenwald, out of nowhere and for no good reason other than your not wanting to directly address the words of Sanders, whom your OP misuses.
Plus, this seems like yet another Meta Escapee Thread.
Shall we do some Elizabeth Warren quotes now?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

111. The world does not revolve around DU. My post was

Targeting ALL Sanders and Warren fans both online and offline who seem to have lost rational objectivity when judging our president's performance.

Your critique of my posting skills are an added bonus. I will consider the source as I seek ways to apply your sterling words of wisdom.

[silvershadow]

36. No, not at all.

I will continue to post my support of my preferred candidates, as they might emerge. I can't speak to your observation about any particular set or subset of supporters of Warren, Sanders, et al as "attacking" Obama, but if it has anything to do with my own post earlier, I call it as I see it, and our party needs help as badly as the Republican party. The so-called "professional left" has been marginalized in the media as the outliers, whilst the DLC types get pegged as "moderates". Truth is, those of us that now find ourselves on the so-called far left, are really just run-o-the mill pro-labor Democrats whom haven't budged over the decades that the party slid further and further to the right. As for undermining Hillary, that is what primaries are for. It is not a coronation (as much as some would hope). jmho

[TheKentuckian]

41. I think it is interesting that because one is in a fanbase, they assume everyone else is too.

This is the lens seen through, no wonder we all can't stop talking past each other. Often enough we aren't even on the same subject in any functional way no matter how many of the same words and subject lines are the same because some are really talking regardless of apparent subject matter is the personality that they are a fan of.

Quite interesting this was laid out so clearly.

[markpkessinger]

55. Spot on! n/t

[Pretzel_Warrior]

91. By their statements and embedded images you will know them

Plenty of Warren and Sanders "fans" who have not closely scrutinized their positions. They are useful totems in other peoples' attacks on this administration.

[Egalitarian Thug]

43. No not at all, but then again, we're not all afflicted with the same ailment that you suffer from.

[joshcryer]

44. Not really, they are politicians.

[NancyDL]

49. LOL

Funniest post I've read tonight. What's unfunny is that it's true. 8-)

[markpkessinger]

57. Not half as weird . . .

. . . as Democrats who give a pass to a Democratic President for things they would be screaming "Bloody murder!" about it the sitting President had an 'R' after his name. I mean, I'm sure there must be some guiding principle at work, but I've found it almost impossible to discern . . .

[cali]

59. Using Bernie. Using Bernie to try and burnish the President's liberal credentials

is laughable. silly.

Bernie's politics differ starkly from the President's. However, Bernie is a politician and he's aligned with the Democratic Party, so of course you'll never hear him harshly criticizing President Obama, but he does criticize him and he does publicly disagree with the President on a host of issues. Bernie strongly dislikes the corporate influence on the administration. He's hardly made a secret of his loathing for that shit

Bernie is really not a good person to use to try and demonstrate how liberal this President is.

GIANT FAIL to tall who try this transparent tactic.

[djean111]

63. It is laughable, indeed.

Also "funny" - the idea that we must all worship in lockstep, especially since we jeer at Freepers, for example, for doing that very same thing.
The constant push for unanimous praise for Obama has me puzzled - is he running again, somehow?

edited to add - Maybe the "weirdness" is because some have Obama himself as their main focus, and others are more interested in his policies. I am certainly not going to praise a policy that I would be critical of if the president was GOP.
Presidents come and go. The policies affect lives for quite a while.

[cali]

65. Yes, it's about focusing on personality over policy. It's for those who aren't too

er, capable of grasping policy. Oh, they may throw up a bunch of smoke and mirrors- and links, but it's nothing more than a cult of personality- politician as savior. There are so many examples of this mentality gone terribly wrong. and those directing it toward Obama are in poor company.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

90. You are missing the point Cali. Maybe purposefully maybe not

The point is one can disagree with this president, Hillary and other Dems without being disagreeable.

One can express concern about appointees without broad brushing Obama as a slave to corporate interests.

One can express dismay at Hilary's decision to vote yes on Bush's "use of force" authorization without labeling her a pro-Israel war monger.

[cali]

66. they don't support him on many, many issues and both have made that clear. furthermore

bernie does NOT support Hilary. He's thinking of running against her.

Revisionist history is the realm of deniers. You're in company with some repellant characters.

[ProSense]

73. This is nonsense. Sanders

"they don't support him on many, many issues and both have made that clear"

...and Warren are a member of the Democratic caucus and support the President on "many, many issues."

"Revisionist history is the realm of deniers. You're in company with some repellant characters."

Being anti-Obama doesn't give anyone carte blanche to deny reality.

[cali]

75. Sorry, my dear pro-sense, but the reality is that bernie's politics are far to the left of Obama's

yes, bernie is polite about his criticism he caucuses with the dems, but he's hardly made a secret of his sentiments regarding corporate influence and corruption.

[ProSense]

81. So? He's

"Sorry, my dear pro-sense, but the reality is that bernie's politics are far to the left of Obama's"

...still a member of the Democratic caucus, and has to deal with reality. "My dear, cali, that's the reality.

He supports progress, and agrees with the President on "many, many issues."

Senator Bernie Sanders: “How many people will die if the Affordable Care Act is repealed?”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023835481

A Health Care Success Story

Sen. Bernie Sanders on Wednesday brought together leaders of community health centers from across Vermont where three new centers opening in January are part of a dramatic expansion of affordable primary care. A Sanders provision in the Affordable Care Act authorized $11 billion to build, expand, and operate community health centers throughout the United States. “This is a huge step forward,” said Sanders, chairman of a Senate subcommittee that oversees primary health care.

Sanders was joined at the news conference by representatives of the Battenkill Valley Health Center in Arlington, Vt., the Five Town Health Alliance in Bristol, Vt., and the Gifford Medical Center in Randolph, Vt. The Bennington, Addison and Orange county centers will become the newest in the state thanks to $2.4 million in federal funding released last month.

The eight current Federally Qualified Health Centers already provide primary and dental care along with mental health counseling and low-cost prescription drugs to more than 130,000 patients.

The three new centers will bring the total number of Vermonters served to about 163,000, more than one in four people in the state and one of the highest participation rates in the country. In addition, about 25,000 Vermonters now receive dental care at community health centers, a number which will also rise.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/recent-business/a-health-care-success-story

Senator Sanders: Welfare for Walmart?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024354098

[cali]

83. lol. here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024356791

He hardly hides his contempt for many of this administration's policies. I've heard him do it at town meetings.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

92. Revisionist history about the future? Interesting concept

[Coyotl]

78. No, not even a little bit weird, frankly. That's how politics works.

What is weird is how people ignore the practical aspects of life to their own detriment.

[orpupilofnature57]

80. Their Actually the only people accusing the 1% , cutting to the chase ?

[Rex]

86. Bingo. And the vocal few that always try and stir up shit

support the 1% almost as faithfully as they support the corporate controlled government 100% of the time. Funny how that works.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

94. So you're saying Barack Obama hasn't attacked banksters

And tax-avoiding companies? Talk about revisionist history.

[orpupilofnature57]

96. Talk about the TPP with this Government.. Mortgage, Insurance Bail- OUTS !!! Revisionist history !!!

Rose colored history ?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

93. Only for people utterly unfamiliar with the way American politics work

People also found it interesting that an arrow could go directly through Steve Martin's head. Until they knew better.

[freshwest]

101. I just had a thought. Will the Warren 2016 bumper stickers turn into Hillary 2016 if she wins the

Last edited Sun Jan 19, 2014, 04:21 PM - Edit history (1)

party's nomination in 2016?

It would be pretty interesting to watch. Warren said she supports Hillary. And if she endorses her in 2016 like she did Obama, that would be interesting.

There is a strong current of support for women's rights in the Democratic Party. The other parties, meh, not so much. Oh, who are we kidding?

There is none in the most popular of other parties. Women are going to vote Democrat keep ending up as whipping posts for Rand, Cruz, Ryan or whoever, forever.

How many present heroes will be tossed under the proverbial bus for not going along with the anti-Hillary meme then?

I'm not that much of a fan of Hillary, nor her herd of supporters who really did her a great disservice in 2008. Too many never got off their Obama-hating ways and I know a number who voted for Palin out of spite, then went hard right GOP, batshit CT or simply Christofascist.

They are of no use to the Democratic Party as their version of women's rights morphed into Palin. As if the outer package was all that mattered, not the ideals she espoused.

Hillary will have to come out and express her views to get support from mainstream Democrats, because she's been painted with a very bad brush since 2008.

[MannyGoldstein]

104. Elizabeth Warren said she supports Hillary?

Got a link?

Thanks in advance.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

106. Very well said

Yes, seeing the way some Clinton supporters refused to stop attacking Obama late in primary cycle when it was over and even once he was nominated was a sad thing to witness.

[freshwest]

108. And were not doing what Hillary wanted, either. Her support for Obama was obvious.

Those two videos of her campaigning for him on the road and endorsing him at the DNC that I posted, were not weak or qualified support. Her 'supporters' threw her under the bus for doing that, and some went GOP. We don't need them to come back, but those who can see past the packages to the ideals that motivate both candidates, can see the truth.

The others who are just sloganeering or going with a meme, suffering ODS or ABO and will never effect any changes in this country except to turn it over to the TeaPots and Libertarians by default.

With friends like those Hillary had, the expression of 'who needs enemies' comes to mind. These are fair-weather and petty people promoting discord as a knee-jerk reaction, ultimately a waste of time. Neither Hillary, Obama, Warren and Kucinich were and are not enemies, as it is not about them, but the ideals.

That realm is sadly lacking in the media era of tignorant visceral reaction. And as transient as such responses are, they never amount to lasting change, they cannot stand in the light of reality.

[AgingAmerican]

109. No

Their 'fan base' also supports Obama on a wide range of issues.

Welcome to politics.

[NCTraveler]

117. Black and white thinking.

Makes life easier for some.