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Sat Mar 17, 2012, 06:29 PM

Why I think Mitt Romney is running for President.

He has no particularly strong policy positions.

He waffles on both sides.

He is not comfortable with celebrity who dislikes personal questions and hates to be interviewed. When off script he cringes and reveals that he doesn't really like 'the crowd'.

So why is Mitt Romney running for President, especially when he is so poor at it and it inflicts such painful criticism of him before his family.

There are two possible explanations. The first is that he is trying to exceed his father's legacy. His father was a very nice man who was at ease in public and had a pretty good chance of becoming President except for a single interview where he told the truth about the Vietnam war and his experience on a junket there.

The second is completely anecdotal and I have no proof, just speculation, it goes back 40 years to growing up with cousins of Mitt. In a nutshell I believe that Mitt Romney's drive has to do with becoming the 4th most important person in the history of the Mormon Church. There have been three important bridges in Mormon history. The bridge of revelation (Smith), the bridge to Mormon Migration and Mormon Territory (Young), the bridge to Modernity and Conformity (Grant). The fourth bridge will be the person that brings Mormonism into complete and total acceptance of the American Christian community.

In 1968 George Romney was ahead of Nixon in the polls and was much better liked. He had a warm personality and great success story as CEO and Governor of Michigan. He was candid and relaxed and that led to his stating that he was for the Vietnam war before and during a trip he made there but when he returned he began to realize that the diplomatic and military people in Vietnam were very insulated and that he had been 'brainwashed' by their briefings and enthusiasm for the war but upon reflection began to see the conflict differently. The use of the word 'brainwashed' a year before in an obscure radio interview was unearthed and played over and over again and effectively ended his political career.

At that time I was 14 years old and was the direct descendent of (along with hundreds of others including Senator Bennett of Utah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells-Bennett-Grant_Family#Jedediah_Morgan_Grant ) of Jedidiah Morgan Grant (the first mayor of Salt Lake City) and his son Heber J Grant (the second longest serving President of the Mormon Church 1919 - 1945). HJG had three major impact on the Church a) He started a 'Good Neighbor Pollicy' that removed revenge of anti Mormon 'persecution' and replaced it with a 'Good Neighbor' b) When the Depression hit the LDS church was seriously overleveraged and on the brink of insolvency he instituted internal reforms (see c) and went to New York and successfully negotiated refinance and kept the Church solvent and c) He moved the LDS Church from a wink and nod approach to polygamy (which he was found guilty of earlier) to starting to excommunicate Mormons that still practiced and pomoted it.

Heber J Grant was also the last living member of the Council of Fifty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Fifty)

The Council of Fifty was designed to take over the administration of government when in a post apocalyptic world all other governments collapsed. It was active in Joseph Smiths campaign for President in 1844.

With that background I had a number of interesting exchanges with one Rick Romney in the 8th grade. Rick was George's nephew and Mitt's first cousin. Even at that age I had a lot of interest in politics and would talk about the campaign with Rick. I also let it slip that I was a descendent of Heber J and Jedidiah Morgan Grant.

Rick was in absolute awe. He was more impressed with my distant relatives (with whom we had no real contact beyond the occassional Uncle visit). I would dribble out little tidbits from time to time. What was particularly fascinating was Ricks' reaction that we were no longer Mormons. It was incomprehensible to him. I explained that virtually no one in our immeidiate family bar one uncle that was a true insider, stayed up with it and I would dismissively mock the goofy things I had heard from my father about Mormon beliefs.

Rick wasn't surprised that we didn't buy it all but couldn't understand why we just didn't pass that stuff by and build on the fantastic network of relations that our family would have had.

I couldn't understand how he would accept the mumbo jumbo of Mormonism and he couldn't accept why I would be so concerned with any particular doctrine and turn away from such a vaulted family history.

He viewed my antecedents as being close to the Matthew, Mark or Luke and I viewed them as earlier forms of the three stooges.

Now I am also sure that Rick was a lot nicer about it than me and that I was probably pretty shitty about it way back then.

But seeing how Mormons see Smith/Young and Grant and how they still sting at being outside the realm of what is considered acceptable and respectable intellectual thought I see Mitt Romney's campaign as an effort to achieve what Joseph Smith attempted in 1844 but never achieved, election as President would put a permanent 'Good Housekeeping Seal of approval' on the LDS Church as being American as apple pie.

From their point of view even a successful nomination of a major party, even if it is defeated in a general election will provide massive and permanent 'certification' as Mormons being considered normal.

It would also explain why Romney always seems to be trying to get everyone's approval, he wants to be known as the fourth great Mormon, the one that finally brought Mormonism inside of the American establishment.

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Arrow 85 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why I think Mitt Romney is running for President. (Original post)
grantcart Mar 2012 OP
malaise Mar 2012 #1
grantcart Mar 2012 #5
Post removed Mar 2012 #29
Hawkowl Mar 2012 #30
immoderate Mar 2012 #35
radiclib Mar 2012 #47
madaboutharry Mar 2012 #2
postulater Mar 2012 #3
Wellstone ruled Mar 2012 #4
Diclotican Mar 2012 #7
Diclotican Mar 2012 #6
eridani Mar 2012 #8
excuse not to write Mar 2012 #9
craigmatic Mar 2012 #10
highplainsdem Mar 2012 #11
grantcart Mar 2012 #13
Ruby the Liberal Mar 2012 #36
Lone_Star_Dem Mar 2012 #54
pnwest Mar 2012 #12
Guy Whitey Corngood Mar 2012 #14
BlueMTexpat Mar 2012 #15
davidpdx Mar 2012 #16
grantcart Mar 2012 #18
malaise Mar 2012 #23
davidpdx Mar 2012 #67
Aerows Mar 2012 #17
Nayajja Mar 2012 #19
uppityperson Mar 2012 #31
grantcart Mar 2012 #44
grantcart Mar 2012 #34
Ruby the Liberal Mar 2012 #37
grantcart Mar 2012 #38
LiberalLovinLug Mar 2012 #50
MADem Mar 2012 #76
grantcart Mar 2012 #79
MADem Mar 2012 #80
grantcart Mar 2012 #81
MADem Mar 2012 #82
mackattack Mar 2012 #77
hfojvt Mar 2012 #20
notadmblnd Mar 2012 #21
grantcart Mar 2012 #43
PatSeg Mar 2012 #22
RevStPatrick Mar 2012 #24
Post removed Mar 2012 #25
tkmorris Mar 2012 #28
JL Fuller Mar 2012 #26
Hawkowl Mar 2012 #32
uppityperson Mar 2012 #33
grantcart Mar 2012 #41
uppityperson Mar 2012 #45
grantcart Mar 2012 #46
uppityperson Mar 2012 #48
highplainsdem Mar 2012 #49
grantcart Mar 2012 #51
grantcart Mar 2012 #40
Hawkowl Mar 2012 #53
grantcart Mar 2012 #39
Post removed Mar 2012 #27
usrname Mar 2012 #42
LiberalLovinLug Mar 2012 #52
Lone_Star_Dem Mar 2012 #55
grantcart Mar 2012 #57
sulphurdunn Mar 2012 #56
baguioboy Mar 2012 #58
La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2012 #60
baguioboy Mar 2012 #68
TBF Mar 2012 #69
Ian David Mar 2012 #73
La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2012 #78
Guy Whitey Corngood Mar 2012 #59
hootinholler Mar 2012 #61
Guy Whitey Corngood Mar 2012 #62
Tuesday Afternoon Mar 2012 #63
BlueIris Mar 2012 #64
grantcart Mar 2012 #85
oldhippydude Mar 2012 #65
grantcart Mar 2012 #66
TBF Mar 2012 #70
grantcart Mar 2012 #72
The Straight Story Mar 2012 #71
grantcart Mar 2012 #75
Kali Mar 2012 #74
DippyDem Mar 2012 #83
grantcart Mar 2012 #84

Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 06:32 PM

1. In other words his religion is all that matters

and it matters more than all his lies and all the destruction he wrought on others to acquire his wealth.


Great reasons to keep him away from power.

Excellent post

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Response to malaise (Reply #1)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 08:24 PM

5. thanks

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Response to malaise (Reply #1)


Response to Post removed (Reply #29)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:30 PM

30. I think he supported his analysis very well

 

If you had any first hand knowledge of the Mormon church, it would ring true to you. What do you want? A signed affidavit from Romney listing his motives for running?

Go to Utah and ask them how the feel about Mitt running. That should help your comprehension.

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Response to Post removed (Reply #29)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:16 PM

35. I would welcome some action by Obama that is "socialist or latent Communist"...

 

And his Christianity does not appeal to me any more than Islam would.

You have a better explanation for Romney pursuing a livelihood he is so bad at?

And enjoy your stay!

--imm

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Response to Post removed (Reply #29)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:45 PM

47. "You democrats"?

I hope you enjoyed your stay. Buh-bye, now.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 07:01 PM

2. This is indeed an excellent post.

I think that you have examined a very interesting theory and it is very sound.

He is therefore using the office of the Presidency for a personal reason rather than to serve the nation.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 07:04 PM

3. Interesting insight

And scary enough to make me distrust him even more.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 08:01 PM

4. Great post



Threw this idea out there a couple weeks ago. Thanks for the same,but much fuller thought and details. Someone posted this on another site to the fact that if Romney lost,he would become Monsons replacement as the head of his church.

Ancestor worship at it's finest.

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Response to Wellstone ruled (Reply #4)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 10:06 PM

7. Wellstone ruled

Wellstone ruled

Wel - Im not sure he would be elected president of the Church.. As I understood things, it is not just to tell a "prophet" to step down and then be elected... Mr Monson have to die first, and he look sharp and in good health for the moment... Even tho he is of age

Diclotican

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 10:03 PM

6. grantcart

grantcart

I hope Mr Romney dosen't get elected as president - mostly becouse about what I know of him - who are not good at all.. To me he looks like a person who are willing to do allmoust everything to play ball with the extreme right. Even destroy the country he want to be elected to serve... And the whole person looks little fishy to me...

And no, it is not becouse of his faith - I have the same faith - even tho I hope I am mutch more liberal in my wiew than he is... To me he looks little dangrous and not a man to have in the White House...

I hope mr Obama wil get another 4 year in the White House, and now is able to pass better legesation than before, and also to get passed some laws, that wil make life for ordinary americans better....

The GOP need to be loocked out of power, for at least two decades to others try to fix what is destroyed the last decade or so... And the GOP also need to get their sanity back as it stand today the GOP is overtaken by extremist, who would not do less than destroy the whole consept of USA in the prosess.. They are really a danger to the United States of America....

Diclotican

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 11:10 PM

8. Now you made me think of my old Rambler American

First (and only) new car I ever bought. Had it for 12 years until it got stolen in Boston. George Romney made money by being CEO of a company that made real products. Mitt Romney made even more by destroying businesses and selling the remaining shreds. And that's the difference between America then and America now.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 11:18 PM

9. Lust for Power

 

Simple as that.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 11:24 PM

10. Yeah the religious thing doesn't get enough scrutiny from the press.

 

I mean they said that African Americans got that way because they were in league with the devil. Then there's the polygamy thing. It seems like the soda companies would toss a few more dollars Obama's way because mormons don't drink soda. They looked at Obama's church it's about time they gave willard the same treatment.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sat Mar 17, 2012, 11:59 PM

11. This seems to mesh pretty well with a Salon column on Romney and the White Horse prophecy:

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Response to highplainsdem (Reply #11)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:39 AM

13. She is extremely well informed about inner Mormon ambitions.

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Response to highplainsdem (Reply #11)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:17 PM

36. I wish more people knew about this

It has been posted here a few times, but seems to sink. Too long?

At the end of the day - it is about dominionism. The belief that the LDS will take over the leadership of the US (while the COnstitution is in 'tatters') and this will be their first step in the religion exercising 'dominion' over the land.

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Response to highplainsdem (Reply #11)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 05:53 PM

54. That is an excellent article.

Well worth the time it takes to read.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:42 AM

12. thats the most plausible answer to the question

that I have seen. Well done.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:44 AM

14. This is fascintating and frightening. He really doesn't seem to give a fuck about

anyone other than his family (not including the dog).

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 04:32 AM

15. Thanks very much for this insight! eom

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 05:03 AM

16. This is something that you should write about on blogs as well

The background history is very fascinating and so is your connection with the Romney family. Hearing about Romney's father kind of makes me think of the comparison of George HW Bush to George W. Bush. While George HW Bush's policies weren't great, they were no where near as disastrous as his sons. His son also had twice as long to carry out his damage on the country.

I had no idea about the three bridges. If Mitt wants a bridge named after him, I think we should just take up a collection and build one for him. A nice small wooden bridge in the countryside he can visit. It would be a hell of a lot better then having him as our president.

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #16)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 10:29 AM

18. It literally is a bridge to nowhere.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #18)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 11:45 AM

23. Kick for the morning crowd n/t

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Response to grantcart (Reply #18)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 07:41 AM

67. If the world were flat and there was an edge...

That would be the place to build it. We could just tell all the Republicans that a better place exists on the other side of the bridge. Problem solved.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 09:55 AM

17. Good information K & R n/t

 

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 11:11 AM

19. Psycho-historical fantasy

Interesting post, simply because of the familial reminiscences.

However, it strikes me as idle speculation and worse, as totally missing the mark. Having been immersed my whole life in Mormonism, I have never once heard anyone speak of your "bridges." It is true that the first three could be chapter titles for three historical eras in the Mormon Church's history, but there are many other eras one could also talk about. The idea that Mormons seek "complete and total acceptance of the American Christian community" is naive at best. Our very existence is based on a belief that we *are* different from traditional Christianity in fundamental ways. What befuddles us is how other Christians can claim we are not followers of Christ.

If Romney's goal were what you claim, he would be running his campaign much more like Santorum is, emphasizing his religious beliefs and using them for political gain, and yes, even compromising or shading them to make himself more appealing to the evangelicals who are prone to demonize him.

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Response to Nayajja (Reply #19)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:31 PM

31. Whom are you supporting? Thank you for answering.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #31)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:38 PM

44. you forgot to welcome him to DU!

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Response to Nayajja (Reply #19)


Response to Nayajja (Reply #19)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:19 PM

37. Until the day comes where LDS is as accepted as the RCC

it would be political suicide for Romney to run on the White Horse platform.

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Response to Nayajja (Reply #19)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:28 PM

38. You wouldn't have heard the term 'bridges' unless you talked with me

I used that term to express to non Mormons how Mormons see the particular importance of their early leaders.

The identification of Heber J Grant as an important figure is not for us a matter of pride and we are stunned that he is seen as such a venerable figure, and many older Mormons have told me through the years that they consider him just below Brigham Young in their estimation of Mormon leaders (which I find ironic because of Young's involvement in the circumstances around the Meadow Mountain Massacre should be a matter of shame and not pride).

You are the naive one in Church history.

I did graduate work at Princeton Theological Seminary and know its history very well.

Mormons are "What befuddlbefuddled by "how other Christians can claim we are not followers of Christ" because their understanding of Church history is non-existent and their use of the Bible infantile. Mormons don't have professionally trained clergy and it is in the training of clergy that you learn that words matter. 'Christian' and 'followers of Christ' are two completely different things with explicit understandings. Mormons, or anyone, who claim to be inspired by the teachings of the 'Christ' can be considered followers of Christ.

1) The historical understanding of the word 'Christian'.

In the four centuries after the death of Jesus there was considerable confusion over what the future entailed. As Paul writes in many epistles many thought that the end of the world was near and that they need not prepare for a long future. Eventually the oral sayings were written down and used to interpet the events of Jesus life in Mark, Matthew, Luke and one other lost document. Other books were written like the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of Philip. Literally dozens of 'gospels' were written about Jesus at about the same time.

Different schools of thought developed and they were based on two competing Christologies, the Trinitarians, and the Gnostics. These two schools competed for acceptance. Most 'followers of Christ' at the time found comfort in the Christology found in the Apostles Creed. Ultimately a line was drawn in the sand when a Council of Bishops gathered in 325 in Nicene, Bythnia (modern Turkey) and agreed on what has become the orthodox interpretation of the Holy Trinity in the Nicene Creed.

Supporters of the minority position were convinced or eventually wore down until there were only two Bishops that did not agree and eventually they too accepted the Nicene position.

The Emperor then enforced this decision and any who did not accept the Nicene Creed were excommunicated from the Church. Those that accepted the Nicene Creed were the orthodox Christians and those that did not were Gnostic Christians who eventually faded away.

So from 325 the word Christian has meant those that accept the specifically defined Christology and Holy Trinity that was universally accepted at that time. From that branch the Christian Church based on the Apostles Creed and defined in the Nicene Creed has diversified as follows;



Ninety-Five percent of the 'followers of Christ' in the world follow this understanding of orthodox Christianity by agreeing on a Christology that has been well established and universally agreed upon for 1700 years. Mormons have a completely different Christology that was 'discovered' in upstate New York in 1823 along with golden plates as well as other artifacts, including a breastplate and a set of silver spectacles with lenses composed of seer stones . Unfortunately while these important artifacts are no longer with us Smith's inventive Christology still is.

Here is an LDS writer who explains the divergence well from their point of view


http://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2009/09/18/lds-christology-trinitarian-christology-a-comparison/

LDS of course disagree with that idea. We instead envision God and man to be the same essential “order of being.” We are two of the same species, but on different ends of a spectrum or continuum of maturity and glory.



Mormons believe that God was once a man just like us, Christians do not:



Joseph Smith apparently wanted to set his followers straight when he proclaimed the following at the Mormon Church's General Conference in April, 1844:

I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. … It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us.... (“King Follett Discourse,” Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345-346, and History of the Church, vol. 6, 305-307, emphasis added)




Joseph Smith completely renounced the fundamental Christian understanding of who God is, what man is and who Christ is.

They may or may not be followers of Christ. They, like the Gnostics, Adoptionist, Arianists, Psilathropost, Modalists, Docetists, and dozens of others don't follow the Christology that the Christian Church carefully defined 1700 years ago.

To use the word 'Christian' to mean every group that holds Jesus to be the Christ then the word would really have little meaning. For example Bahai believe the following about Jesus;



The Baha'i Faith upholds all claims of Jesus Christ as to His Station, and His Revelation. The Baha'i Writings are filled with references to the words of Jesus and praise of Him. In His time, His Holiness Christ was the greatest Messenger of God yet to have walked the earth. Baha'is believe that the promises of Jesus, as well as those of all the other religions are fulfilled in the Baha'i Faith. For more detail see the following question. Top



The only reason that Mormons are befuddled about why they aren't considered as 'Christians' by the rest of Christianity is that they don't understand the history of the Church and how radical their own peculiar Christology is.


2) Biblical Basis for Christian scepticism of things like 'Mormonism'.



37And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed out His life.

38And the curtain [of the Holy of Holies] of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

39And when the centurion who stood facing Him saw Him expire this way, he said, [k]Really, this Man was God's Son!



Mark has spent his entire Gospel rushing to this point. It is the reason that he wrote the Gospel. Mark is setting an epistomological stage and he makes his point with two contrasting metaphors.

When Christ dies on the Christ all is revealed (in Mark's mind). He puts these two images together because he has an important point to make. For the Jew the essence of YHWH resided in the Holy of Holies where the High Priest would go once a year to commune.

Now, Mark is saying, history has brought the death of Jesus to the world stage. Both the Jew and the Roman (and everyone else) can look and see this was the Son of God. There will be no more secret revelations or anyone cut off from approaching Christ, even the Centurion who was part of the guard that enforced his murder is now able to see the truth.

This is the Biblical reason why Christianity has, for 2100 years walked by new revelations of Christianity, whether they be Joseph Smith or Rev. Moon.

I hope that you are a little less befuddled why Christians insist on a clear definition of terms between Christians and Mormons and other Christ oriented sects.






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Response to grantcart (Reply #38)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 03:03 PM

50. Wow, thankyou for that breakdown

Very informative.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #38)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 02:22 PM

76. Came here from META, but I just have to say...

I really like your "subway diagram" of the major branches w/in Christianity!

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Response to MADem (Reply #76)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:10 PM

79. was this thread referenced on META?

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Response to grantcart (Reply #79)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 09:40 PM

80. Yes it was...

Came for the comments in post 19, stayed for the diagram!

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Response to MADem (Reply #80)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 11:12 PM

81. what was the thread in HM?

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Response to Nayajja (Reply #19)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 02:50 PM

77. Welcome to DU

 

enjoy your stay

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 11:22 AM

20. I coulda sworn

that Marie Osmond already did that.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 11:31 AM

21. I heard once that the Mormon church had declare war on America

was that issue ever settled?

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Response to notadmblnd (Reply #21)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:37 PM

43. Well that was a very long time ago and a very involved issue


I think it would be more accurate that Young wanted to create an atmosphere of fear around the Utah Territory so that the US would leave them alone and they could develop by themselves.

This lead to tragic circumstances that resulted in the Meadow Mountain Massacre;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meadow_Mountain_Massacre

Which ironically has its own possible strange Romney tie in.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 11:36 AM

22. Very interesting and informative

I'd already determined that Mitt was trying to live up to his bigger than life father. Becoming the "fourth bridge" explains a lot. It makes him even more scary to me.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 11:53 AM

24. Fascinating...

 

Whatever his reason(s) for running, it is surely connected to some psycho-drama(s) or other.
As is the case with most people who run for president.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #25)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:21 PM

28. Did you read the ToS when you joined us?

One would think a lawyer would have a greater respect for such things. Of course if one is a Romney supporter they've already demonstrated a certain ability to forgo critical thinking skills so...

Nice to meet you. See you round.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:12 PM

26. Its Time To Do Some Reseach On Your Own

 

Given Mr. Grant has expressed his views based on what he remembers and understands about LDS theology, I feel sure he hasn't quite digested this next part or he would have included it in his calculus too. Mormons believe this nation was, in its nascent form, God's idea. The Constitution was His idea too. He set it all up and then gave it to us to run.

What that means is Mormons and Mitt Romney hold this nation as sacred just as Joseph Smith Jr did when he ran for president in 1844. All good Latter Day Saints living in this country have been raised on this idea. So when we Mormons perceive the nation to be in trouble it is our sacred duty to help fix it. The Constitution and the laws of the land set out how such repairs should be made. That is just what Mitt Romney said too. Don't read any more into the narrative than that. Mitt Romney along with many others see Barack Obama moving away from the Constitution and down a path Americans reject. Mitt says he can get us back on track. That is his reason for running.

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Response to JL Fuller (Reply #26)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:44 PM

32. Uh...No

 

Mormons emigrated from the US to form their own country, Deseret, aka, Utah. And Utah wasn't god's idea, it was where they stopped to recuperate after being driven out of the US for their straying from Christian orthodoxy and embracing polygamy and heresy. Ever since then, there has been a strong motivation to gain legitimacy as a "Christian faith" for whatever reason. I don't think Mormonism is any more or less ridiculous than most branches of Christianity--just younger. A few more hundred years and continued breeding like feral cats and you will have gained your acceptance into mainstream organized crime--er I mean religion.

Mitt just wants to be more important and a bigger success than daddy. That means being a bigger deal politician AND a bigger wheel in the Mormon money machine. What better way to achieve this goal than being the Republican nominee and US president?

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Response to Hawkowl (Reply #32)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:49 PM

33. He's ppr'd. We are getting an influx today here on this. Interesting.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #33)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:34 PM

41. Damn I wish I had got here in time to take him apart.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #41)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:39 PM

45. Sorry.

Did leave you 1 upthread and I imagine more will come.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #45)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:44 PM

46. another arrived down stream



This must be posted at some Mormon site somewhere.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #46)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:55 PM

48. That is the theory. Not sure why they like this thread, but there you go.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #46)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 03:01 PM

49. The Romney campaign is probably watching for threads like this.

I read an article months ago suggesting they intended to target any criticism or analysis of his religion as a factor in his campaign.

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Response to highplainsdem (Reply #49)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 03:07 PM

51. Yes well they are not really understanding how Google works apparently.


Now anybody asking the question will see this thread first.

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Response to Hawkowl (Reply #32)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:33 PM

40. Actually a great deal of Mormon migration was from outside the US


My great grandparents were part of huge Scandinavian migration where poor Scandinavians were promised free land in Utah if they joined the Mormon Church.

My Grandmother was on one of the last 'push cart' caravans that arrived in Utah with great calamity.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #40)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 03:59 PM

53. Ahhh

 

I didn't know that, but it explains a lot of the beautiful blue eyed blondes!

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Response to JL Fuller (Reply #26)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:31 PM

39. I studied at Princeton Seminary and learned to read the Bible in Greek and Hebrew


How much more research do I have to do?

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Response to grantcart (Original post)


Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:35 PM

42. Very interesting POV about Rmoney's campaign for presidency

 

As for "legitimizing" Mormonism, given the current 21st century and the way people are leaving various churches all across the world*, it seems like Mormonism is trying to crash a party that is just about to end.




*Not so much in the US, but even here, the mega-church concept is dying out and church attendance has been dropping slowly, but steadily.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 03:15 PM

52. Dum.. dum dum dum

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 05:58 PM

55. An intriguing point of view on the matter.

One which also appears to have upset several recently departed posters here. Interesting. You may be onto something.

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Response to Lone_Star_Dem (Reply #55)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 07:15 PM

57. It certainly has gotten under somebody's skin


They rushed over here to sign up so that they could all call it psycho babble.

Pretty interesting.

As you say it is pretty validating.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 06:00 PM

56. My mother was raised Mormon

 

in Salt Lake City in the 30s and a cousin of mine lived in Zion for awhile in the 70s. Both told the same story: Where Mormons rule, non-Mormons are second class citizens. I wonder if that has changed?

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 10:57 PM

58. Spam deleted by Ian David (MIR Team)

 

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Response to baguioboy (Reply #58)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 11:30 PM

60. just so we are clear, you're saying you want mitt to win over obama?

 

or the GOP nomination.

given your churches hideous positions on gay rights, where do you stand?

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #60)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 11:37 AM

68. Spam deleted by Ian David (MIR Team)

 

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Response to baguioboy (Reply #68)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 11:49 AM

69. Only if you define "moderate" as completely opposed and reactionary

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Response to baguioboy (Reply #68)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 01:41 PM

73. It's so refreshing to find people who are only MODERATELY bigoted. n/t

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Response to Ian David (Reply #73)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 03:33 PM

78. love it. nt

 

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 11:11 PM

59. Holy magic underoos Batman! Reading some of these replies is like

watching moths flying into to the flame!

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Response to Guy Whitey Corngood (Reply #59)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 11:34 PM

61. pssst...

It's the other way around isn't it? Wouldn't the thread be the metaphorical flame?

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Response to hootinholler (Reply #61)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 11:43 PM

62. Hopefully it makes more sense now. nt

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sun Mar 18, 2012, 11:51 PM

63. interesting and insightful hypothesis. bkmrkd. thanks

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 01:59 AM

64. I think he's there to keep the campaign going until the real nominee shows up.

He's there to make the Democrats feel safe going forward without any changes because they believe it will be Romney.

I agree with those who say his objective is not to win, and even if it were, he won't win. Gulp. I hope.

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Response to BlueIris (Reply #64)

Wed Mar 28, 2012, 02:27 PM

85. That's what I thought but there are no whispers about it and they would have started the

whispering campaign by now.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 03:46 AM

65. thanks for your elequent explanations..

you took me back a number of years.. I was born in southern Idaho.. with the surname Ricks... and like you Grantcart, a direct decendant, of Mormons.. and also like you, our family had left the church.. when i would run across another with same surname, the question was not are you related, it was which wife?.. followed by the question what ward do you go to?

i too got incredulous remarks when teachers and classmates found out i was not one of them.. while i grew up with a profound prejudice concerning LDS people, in later life have become more accepting.. thats probably more a rejection of religion in general as acceptance of any belief system..

funny when you delineated the history.. i couldent help but think of the phenomonon of the "moonies".. as one sect moves toward acceptance, another seems to take its place..

thanks again for the trip down memory lane.. and the explanations..



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Response to oldhippydude (Reply #65)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 04:41 AM

66. thanks for your comment

I have no problems with individual Mormons.

I concede that many could well be better people than I am, better drivers, better chefs and even better parents. Statistically I am sure that its true.

Their epistomology (the HOW they acquired their metaphysical enlightment) remains an object of derision, much weirder than mainline Christianity and just south of Scientology, or in a technical Existential framework, they are "cuckoo as cocoa puffs" and they are about to get on the crazy train.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #66)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 12:34 PM

70. And even if you accept the "weirdness" - as any religion could probably be described as such

(and this is from someone who is agnostic - and wanting to believe there is something out there other than us or we are screwed!) ..

I just can't accept how they treat their women and children. Too many stories of abuse - and I am just referring to the ones I've heard personally from knowing a few and more importantly knowing their children who left the church as adults after suffering through it. It's just more control stuff from angry white men, primarily, and I've really had quite enough of that.

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Response to TBF (Reply #70)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 01:23 PM

72. If you accept the basic Existential proposition that Kierkegaard and other Christian Theologians


have accepted that all religious faith finally cannot be achieved by reason alone and involves a 'leap of faith' it doesn't then mean that you have to accept that all 'leaps' are equal.

A small creek requires someone to step over it but that doesn't put it in the same class as the Grand Canyon.

Ultimately this is what angers Evangelicals, even thoughtful liberal Evangelicals, about Joseph Smith and his followers. If you put all religions into the same basket of epistomological malpractice that the Mormons committ then it just undermines the public perception of their faith.

It's one thing to say that your religious faith cannot be ultimately proved by reason, it is an entirely different proposition to have a wild story that is hostile to reason.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 01:20 PM

71. You stole this from Mein Kampf and switched jews for mormons didn't you ?

(But think about this - if a Jewish candidate was running for prez and religion was brought into it - even if what was being said was true - how would that sound?)

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #71)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 02:15 PM

75. lol well that analogy might have been useful if Moses had voiced an interest in an official office

of Germany.


In this case Joseph Smith not only invisioned a theocracy but he actually was an independent candidate for President in 1844.

Joseph Smith advocated for a system called Theodemocracy



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodemocracy

He instituted the Council of Fifty as the group that was responsible for implementing it.


The Council of Fifty (also known as the Living Constitution, the Kingdom of God, or its name by revelation, The Kingdom of God and His Laws with the Keys and Power thereof, and Judgment in the Hands of His Servants, Ahman Christ)[1] was a Latter Day Saint organization established by Joseph Smith, Jr. in 1844 to symbolize and represent a future theocratic or theodemocratic "Kingdom of God" on the earth.[2] Smith and his successor Brigham Young hoped to create this Kingdom in preparation for the Millennium and the Second Coming of Jesus. The political Kingdom of God, organized around the Council of Fifty, was meant to be a force of peace and order in the midst of this chaos. According to Mormon teachings, while Jesus himself would be king of this new world government, its structure was in fact to be quasi-republican and multi-denominational; therefore, the early Council of Fifty included both Mormons and non-Mormons.[3] Although the Council played a significant role during the last few months of Joseph Smith's life, particularly in his campaign for President of the United States, the Council's role was mostly symbolic throughout the 19th century within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This was largely because the Council was primarily meant for a time when secular governments had ceased to function. Regular meetings of the Council ended in 1884, after the church publicly abandoned its theocratic aspirations. The organization was technically extinguished when its last member, Heber J. Grant, died in 1945.[4]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Fifty



My Great great great great grand uncle Heber J Grant was the last living member of that council.

Now do you still think that there are any real analogies to 'Jews' in Germany?

Do you still think that questions about how modern Mormons think about the political aspirations of their founder are beyond reasonable speculation.

The fact is that most people don't realize that from the begining the Mormon Church had a political agenda and arm.

If I had wanted to do a hit peace about Mormons I would have talked about their thugs, the Danites, and their involvment in mass murder at the Meadow Moutain Massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meadow_Mountain_Massacre

If it is unfair to ask Romney about his Mormon religion would it be fair to ask him about Joseph Smith's platform as President?

http://www.latterdayconservative.com/joseph-smith/general-smiths-views-of-the-power-and-policy-of-the-government/

Does he think that Congress should be reduced?

Does he think that all convicts should be pardoned "blessing them as they go, and saying to them, in the name of the Lord, go thy way and sin no more? . . Abolish the cruel custom of prisons (except in certain cases,) penitentiaries, and court martials for desertion."

Finally my ancestor quoting Joseph Smith



http://www.latterdayconservative.com/quote/tyler-350-quoted-by-jedediah-m-grant/

We are friendly to our country, and when we speak of the flag of our Union, we love it, and we love the rights the Constitution guarantees to every citizen. What did the Prophet Joseph say? When the Constitution shall be tottering we shall be the people to save it from the hand of the foe.




I think its fair to ask Romney if he thinks that HE is the one that Smith prophesized would be the one to save it from the hand of the foe.

Seems relevant to me, and not at all like anything from Mein Kempf.

If you don't think that the Mormons aren't aware of this and aren't talking about this among themselves then look at the very high views that this thread has gotten and the fact that at least three different Mormons have signed up for DU simply to get on this thread and try to label it as 'psycho babble'.

Most people just are not aware that political action has been at the core of Mormonism since Smith. Romney doesn't care about any of the policies that he happens to be quoting, he is trying to go down in Mormon history as the one that brought the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval to the Mormon Church.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 02:11 PM

74. interesting thread, thanks

I live in and visit some heavily Mormon areas (SE AZ and Casas Grandes, Chih), they certainly have a fascinating history.

I have a few LDS friends/acquaintances but have never really been close enough to discuss their religion personally (although my grandfather had closer friends and I am sure we are secret members because of them).

As an atheist I have trouble differentiating cults and religions anyway so the fact that LDS is so "new" and so expansive added to so much local history of the area I live makes it an interesting topic to think about.

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Response to grantcart (Original post)

Sat Mar 24, 2012, 11:18 AM

83. Grantcart... nice to meet you!

I got here via Duzy Awards and I just find this thread very interesting! I lived in SLC for 17 years and am non LDS. I do understand a lot of what you are saying. I'm now a Masshole. You bring some memories back. I'd like to add one thing. Maybe I'm wrong but deep down I just imagine that Mitt is trying to improve his standing via "good works" in the eyes of people on planet Kolob. Mitt is just trying to be #1 in his imaginary world. Thank you, grantcart.

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Response to DippyDem (Reply #83)

Sat Mar 24, 2012, 07:28 PM

84. thanks and welcome to DU

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