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[JI7]

1. this is some fucked up shit

[msanthrope]

8. It's a level of Godwin heretofore unreached. nt

[treestar]

12. +1

If only they'd had an Edvard Snowenbergen.

[markpkessinger]

30. And then there are those who misapply Godwin n/t

[Electric Monk]

45. Here's a nice little article discussing just that

"The first person to mention Hitler in a debate automatically loses!"

Oh dear. Firstly, anyone you catch using this expression and claiming it to be an invocation of "Godwin's Law" is already a buffoon. Godwin's so-called Law actually only states that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1." At no point does the "Law" even suggest that the comparison would be in some way invalid (the link above contains much useful elaboration on this point), far less that it automatically implies the intellectual loss of the argument by the side making the comparison. Add in the fact that the "Law" is in any event accompanied by a corollary ("Quirk's exception&quot stating that anyone who specifically invokes it to that end negates their own purpose, and such use of it in debate becomes even more idiotic.

But there's a much more important issue at stake here than geek semantics. Because those who would (incorrectly) invoke "Godwin's Law" are actively seeking to obliterate from memory not only some of the core building-blocks of civilisation and language, but also some of humanity's most important, and most painfully-learned, lessons.

(snip)

As these words are being written, in the summer of 2005, these lessons have never been more applicable, yet there are people who would wilfully and knowingly dismiss them because the lessons - by obvious necessity - refer to the terrible events which caused them to be learned in the first place. To attempt to render an analogy invalid specifically because its accuracy is powerful, shocking and compelling, is bizarre to say the least.

Viewed in this light, the most widespread invocation of "Godwin's Law" resembles nothing so much as a deliberate attempt by those doing the invoking to pretend that these terrible events never happened, to lobotomise and regress not only themselves, but the whole of humanity, to some kind of primitive animal state. Specifically, the state of fucking idiocy.

more at the link

[markpkessinger]

85. Thank you for sharing this!

I wish more here would read, mark and inwardly digest it!

The reflexive invocation of Godwin has, in my view, all too often been used as a lazy means of shutting down discourse without engaging the substance of an issue. The effect of doing that is that it fosters the notion that something like the Holocaust could never happen again, that it was such a one-off in human history that we need not even entertain the possibility that it could ever happen again. Habnnah Arendt must surely be rolling over in her grave at such a suggestion. Instead of invoking some Internet "law" in a way it was never intended to be invoked, if we think someone has drawn a parallel to something from the Nazi era that is unfair or inappropioate, why not have the discussion as to why, exactly, it is unfair or inappropriate?

[AgingAmerican]

50. It's also a fair question

nt

[grasswire]

2. I've been saying for years now...

....when dissent becomes criminalized, the databanks of various kinds will be the end of liberty on the planet.

[treestar]

3. Back in those days, people lived in neighborhoods

Jewish people lived in known neighborhoods. Sheesh. There was no metadata then. Sheesh what is next, FEMA camps?

[Jesus Malverde]

5. Thats mostly true.

There was also some crazy ass data based eugenics going on... looking at peoples family trees.

I think if this points to anything, mundane records like birth records can be used for evil, we need to keep that in check.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics

The Law for Simplification of the Health System of July 1934 created Information Centers for Genetic and Racial Hygenie, as well as Health Offices. The law also described procedures for 'denunciation' and 'evaluation' of people, who were then sent to a Genetic Health Court where sterilization was decided.

Information to determine who was considered 'genetically sick' was gathered from routine information supplied by people to doctor's offices and welfare departments. Standardized questionnaires had been designed by Nazi officials with the help of Dehomag (a subsidiary of IBM in the 1930s), so that the information could be encoded easily onto Hollerith punch cards for fast sorting and counting.

In Hamburg, doctors gave information into a Central Health Passport Archive (circa 1934), under something called the 'Health-Related Total Observation of Life'. This file was to contain reports from doctors, but also courts, insurance companies, sports clubs, the Hitler Youth, the military, the labor service, colleges, etc. Any institution that gave information would get information back in return. In 1940, the Reich Interior Ministry tried to impose a Hamburg-style system on the whole Reich.

[RobertEarl]

14. Yep, the data was collected

http://www.IBMandtheHolocaust.com/

[Niceguy1]

7. the Germans did gather data

Incrementally...the were obsessed with data

[MannyGoldstein]

39. That's what got their leadership hanged

Meticulous records of their crimes against humanity. Meticulous.

[El_Johns]

32. They absolutely collected data, and data facilitated the persecution of jews. Yes, Jews lived

in "neighborhoods" -- like everyone else -- but they didn't always live in "Jewish" neighborhoods.


IBM and the Holocaust is the stunning story of IBM's strategic alliance with Nazi Germany -- beginning in 1933 in the first weeks that Hitler came to power and continuing well into World War II. As the Third Reich embarked upon its plan of conquest and genocide, IBM and its subsidiaries helped create enabling technologies, step-by-step, from the identification and cataloging programs of the 1930s to the selections of the 1940s.

Only after Jews were identified -- a massive and complex task that Hitler wanted done immediately -- could they be targeted for efficient asset confiscation, ghettoization, deportation, enslaved labor, and, ultimately, annihilation. It was a cross-tabulation and organizational challenge so monumental, it called for a computer. Of course, in the 1930s no computer existed.

But IBM's Hollerith punch card technology did exist. Aided by the company's custom-designed and constantly updated Hollerith systems, Hitler was able to automate his persecution of the Jews. Historians have always been amazed at the speed and accuracy with which the Nazis were able to identify and locate European Jewry. Until now, the pieces of this puzzle have never been fully assembled. The fact is, IBM technology was used to organize nearly everything in Germany and then Nazi Europe, from the identification of the Jews in censuses, registrations, and ancestral tracing programs to the running of railroads and organizing of concentration camp slave labor.

http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/

[Drew Richards]

34. This is an ignorant statement and shows a total lack of German history. The german governments

Starting with the prussian incursion started collecting "meta data" on the populous through various forms...including taxation, identification and what they called city management but I cant remember the word for it at the moment.

During ww1 they instituted the census, identification cards, along with taxation. Included in the census up to and including today is ethnicisty...hell their records are so good they dont need ancestry.com...at every library you can look up your family tree for generations the records for the most part are public record.

[treestar]

60. So a census is spying and can lead to genocide?

That has nothing to do with it. We have a census. It may include ethnicity. The Nazis misused all parts of government. That doesn't make them all useless and evil. Sheesh.

[RobertEarl]

87. We do have a census

And that census can not be used for any other reason than a census.

Which brings up a good point, the collection of our data is another form of a census. But not regulated as closely by any law.

[MannyGoldstein]

37. Not in Germany, for the most part

Jews were as integrated into German society then as we are in American society today. Germany was the most-tolerant country in Europe, before it wasn't.

A family friend, Jewish, was born in Köln in the late 1920s. Growing up, all of her friends were Jewish. Her father owned a butcher shop that specialized in pork sausages. Intermarriage rate was about 50%, as it is here today.

She was lucky - her father was one of the earlier Jews grabbed by the Nazis, he was roughed up and accused of poisoning his non-Jewish customers. He realized how fucked up things were and pulled his wife and children out, first to France then the US. His extended family told him he was making too big of a deal of things, that it would blow over.

Almost all perished in the camps.

[treestar]

63. But they had to spy on them and collect "metadata" on them

before they could figure out where they were in order to send them to the camps. Well golly gee, that's going to happen here too, because our government has "metadata" and census data. The government could easily get your address and send spies to any church or synagogue. Sheesh, you'd think the camps would be set up by now. I mean a government that has metadata is going to commit genocide, of course.

[msanthrope]

4. Dear sweet jeebus...does no one learn actual history anymore??? nt

[Orrex]

6. I just want to be able to come back to this thread after the train wreck

[LeftyMom]

9. I'm going to give you some free advice: Don't compare anything to the holocaust, rape or slavery.

Whatever you're comparing almost always looks piddly by comparison, and everybody will think you're a jackass.

[XemaSab]

24. That Muscovy I punted last month had it coming.

n/t

[Niceguy1]

10. you forgot to.mention

FOR.....

[aristocles]

11. Germany started requiring national identity cards after World War I

Ethnicity was one of the data elements.

[Jesus Malverde]

13. Pretty sure you meant goons, were it says gooks..nt

[RobertEarl]

19. Gooks and goons

The VP was the former head of the CIA. Then he became the President!!

[NuclearDem]

68. For the love of...

You mean spook.

G**k is a racist term for certain East Asian nationalities.

[Gravitycollapse]

78. Spook is also a racist term for a black person.

[NuclearDem]

82. That it is, which is why I generally prefer not to use it.

[Gravitycollapse]

75. I don't think you realize that gook is a pejorative for a vietnamese person.

[aikoaiko]

15. This is same rationale the NRA uses to fight gun registration.

I thought this pot could use a good stir.

[JI7]

16. do you oppose the Census ?

[RobertEarl]

38. Good point

IIRC, there are laws that keep census records from being used from purposes not solely connected to the census. Lets hope those laws hold, but we know there are lawbreakers in the government, eh?

[Coyotl]

17. Or, imagine if corporationas worked for our spy agency and had access

Of course, we would know better than to have personal information in the hands of a government contractor. That would never happen.

[Liberal Veteran]

33. You mean like Transunion, Experian, Equifax?

Pretty sure they already have that info available to them.


Like the Kinks sang:

Silly boy you got so much to live for
So much to aim for, so much to try for
You blowing it all with paranoia
You're so insecure you self-destroyer

[Coyotl]

67. I mean Snowden was working for a contractor, not the NSA.

The corporations have the keys to the NSA data kingdom, and we all know they are the most trustworthy servants of the highest principles imaginable, etc. etc.

[egduj]

18. I was with you until racism took over.

[RobertEarl]

23. You mean 'gooks'?

Used to be that was what we called those in the spy agencies; Gooks.

[William769]

36. Apparently you're not well versed in many aspect of history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gook

Some friendly advice know what you're talking about before posting.

[RobertEarl]

44. Pruneface did not employ many Vietnamese

And if they did they certainly were not part of the goons who did the dirty deeds. So, it should be obvious to even the most casual reader, that the OP had no intent to denigrate any Vietnamese people.

Back in the day we used the word 'gook' as a slang word for spies.

[William769]

47. Back in the Day "we" didn't.

And you have seen what the most casual reader has said so far about your OP (just read the responses).

That right there should tell you something.

[RobertEarl]

54. In my dictionary

It states two listings. One of the Vietnamese, and the other of a dirty dealer.

Spies, in my book, when they were spies like those in pruneface's employ, were just that: dirty dealers who injured the US.

I apologize that I have upset you and made you go off topic.

Next time, as the poster below suggests, I will use the word spook.

[William769]

61. I am not upset by people like you.

I just refuse to let you get away with what you post when it is inaccurate.

[Liberal Veteran]

48. Are you sure you aren't thinking of "spooks"? - nt

[LeftyMom]

49. Stop trying to justify your racist tourettes. Nobody used that word that way.

[Electric Monk]

52. Are you conflating the words spook and goon, perhaps? nt

[RobertEarl]

58. I may be. Not perfect here

Next time I will write spooks. Thanks.

[William769]

64. A decent person would edit their OP and use the correct term.

Just saying.

[NuclearDem]

69. No, you'll fucking edit it or delete it.

It's a horribly racist and hurtful term, not an "oopsie-poopsie"

[Gravitycollapse]

76. You should also know that spook is a pejorative for a black person.

[Eleanors38]

90. Some terms are misused or evolve. I don't use "Saturday Night Special,"

though a few do use the expression to describe a very cheap handgun. It has racial connotations as well.

[JVS]

46. I suspect a typo. k is one up and one over from n

[LeftyMom]

51. No, he's doubling down.

[JVS]

62. uffda

[Egnever]

57. Nope they confirmed it was intentional

but i am pretty sure they are getting gook mixed with spook.

[NightWatcher]

20. First one to say "Hitler" loses the argument.

It's Rule #1 on Teh Internets.

[Electric Monk]

65. As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Not: First one to say "Hitler" loses the argument.

[dilby]

21. Nazis would walk into Synagogues and ask for a list of members.

It was not the government that kept lists of Jews, the Jews kept the lists themselves and turned them over when asked. So just remember your membership information can be requested from anything you participate in where they have your name.

[JVS]

55. That's right, except that they could also check against public records.

In Germany even now it is legally required to report your place of residence to the local authorities. And one piece of information that is often included is your religious affiliation.

[Jenoch]

22. It appears the current US government

is doing much more spying and data collecting on US citizens than past US governments. Isn't technology great?

[JI7]

25. how did they find the japanese to for internment camps ?

[Egnever]

59. That should leave a mark

[Liberal Veteran]

26. Well, if you get right down to it, most people give up demographic data willingly.

How many times have you checked the ethnicity/race box on a form?

How many recruits in the armed services have their dog tags stamped with their religious preference?

File taxes? Are you married, single, disabled? Who lives in your household? Who gave you the w-2 you submitted? Did you donate to a specific charity and write off the deduction?

I rather think if we are talking about the dystopian future of rounding a certain population up, most of that information has been recorded for decades on end.

The fact that you called Katz's Deli for take out is fairly far down on the list of how people would get singled out.

[Agnosticsherbet]

27. One way was that IBM helped him do it.

IBM and the Holocaust
But IBM's Hollerith punch card technology did exist. Aided by the company's custom-designed and constantly updated Hollerith systems, Hitler was able to automate his persecution of the Jews. Historians have always been amazed at the speed and accuracy with which the Nazis were able to identify and locate European Jewry. Until now, the pieces of this puzzle have never been fully assembled. The fact is, IBM technology was used to organize nearly everything in Germany and then Nazi Europe, from the identification of the Jews in censuses, registrations, and ancestral tracing programs to the running of railroads and organizing of concentration camp slave labor.

Of course, this wasn't done with metadata, just good old fashioned punch cards and information taken by census gatherers.

[Agnosticsherbet]

35. Another big aid in identifying jews were collaborators. People did not hide their jewsih identity.

collaborators were more than happy to point out who was Jewish, where they worked, where they lived, their synagogues. This was not metadata, either.

[RobertEarl]

42. Point is

The info had to be made into data that could be accessed and used at the right time. That's where the punch cards came in good use. We've moved beyond that now, haven't we?

[Motown_Johnny]

28. Ever been to the Holocaust Museum in D.C.?

I didn't think so (actually I was damn sure).


Also, when you start comparing things to Hitler, you lose.


Epic Fail of a post.


If you have any self respect at all you will delete this garbage.

[zappaman]

29. Well done!

The most ridiculous post of the year!
Granted, it's only January...but this one will hard to top in offensiveness and sheer ignorance.

[Behind the Aegis]

73. It's up there, but there is one worse, IMO, but it has ZERO responses....

...so....I know nothing! NOTHING!

[William769]

83. I think I found it.

[GoneFishin]

31. I think it's a bullshit rule myself, because if the comparison it apt then it is not off limits.

I have heard some good and very smart people state that rule, but I disagree with it. The more prolific the use of propaganda and the aggressive use of wedge politics and zealotry to demonize and split religious and ethnic groups, the more important it is to not forget what horrible and unthinkable things history has taught us are, in fact, possible, even if thought to be improbable.

[Bobbie Jo]

41. Wow.

just wow.

[Purveyor]

43. I've read that in some villages, it came down to whether one was circumcised or not for the male

population.

Makes sense, actually.

[GoneFishin]

53. Well, at least today there is no way for them to determine our political leanings

and classify us as being supportive or antagonistic toward a right-wing or corporatist agenda.

So we got that goin' for us.

[Vashta Nerada]

56. Racism and Godwin's Law in one post.

[Cleita]

66. The old fashioned way. Turned their neighbors against them by telling them lies

about Jewish people and how they took what rightfully belonged to good Germans. I think there were some sordid stories aout baby sacrifices done by them as well. Then he made them illegal by not allowing them to live, shop or work in most places. After that it wasn't hard to get their own neighbors and former friends to turn them into the Gestapo for breaking the law if they were caught working, shopping or living where they weren't allowed to.

[mathematic]

70. The Nazis had pieces of flair that they made the Jews wear.

I learned that in a documentary about office work.

[Liberal Veteran]

74. PC load letter! What the fuck does that mean? - nt

[Electric Monk]

79. I think they were making a reference to the movie Office Space

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0151804/quotes

Joanna: I dunno, it just seems wrong.

Peter Gibbons: It's NOT wrong. INITECH is wrong. INITECH is an evil corporation, all right? Chochkies is wrong. Doesn't it bother you that you have to get up in the morning and you have to put on a bunch of pieces of flair?

Joanna: Yeah, but I'm not about to go in and start taking money from the register.

Peter Gibbons: Well, maybe you should. You know, the Nazis had pieces of flair that they made the Jews wear.

Joanna: What?

[NuclearDem]

80. Both of them were.

PC LOAD LETTER is from that movie too.

[Electric Monk]

84. Ah, yes, I suppose it's been awhile since I watched it so I missed that reference. nt

[Manifestor_of_Light]

89. Jennifer Aniston didn't change the covers on her TPS reports, either.

But then, she didn't work at Initech.

[NuclearDem]

71. This OP is just a spectacular level of fail.

[jeff47]

72. They were highlighted by time-traveling Fukushima radiation. (nt)

[NuclearDem]

77. Nope, try again. Just completely delete that word from your post.

No strike through, just gone entirely. It has zero purpose being there at all.

[LeftyMom]

81. You edited this insanely offensive post and didn't even remove the racial slur?

[Gravitycollapse]

86. 1209 views and 80+ responses with ZERO recs. That says it all.

On a site that is generally pretty liberal with the rec button, you've garnered only vitriol. Mostly for your blatant use of racial epithets. But I suspect the Nixonian level of paranoia hasn't helped either.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

88. Let me tell you what happened in two different synagogues.

Speaking of spies.

This happened twice in two large synagogues I visited during services in two different cities.

1)Nobody noticed I was visiting, or acknowledged my existence, or said hello or greeted me; and

2)The ONLY person who spoke to me, after much discussion, I figured out, was a Jew for Jesus!!!!



Those people believe in a contradiction. They are a front group to convert people to Christianity sponsored by the Southern Baptists.
Cite: www.jewsforjudaism.com

One was a man and one was a woman. The woman had a pendant of a gold star of David with a cross inside it which was an obvious clue if you looked.

The man was a creepy guy who looked like Malfoy in a black raincoat.

I think Jews have a problem they are not aware of. They should greet people and know about the traitors hanging out on the property talking to strangers.



I also had a congregation board reject me when I wanted to convert because I was unemployed. The rabbi was down with it, but the board was a bunch of rich doctors. Of course somebody could have employed me (I have an associate's degree, a BA and a JD and I can type like a fiend) but that would be unacceptable, I guess.

[Gravitycollapse]

91. Is this a joke or are you serious right now?

[JDPriestly]

92. Precisely.

We have a huge database of information that identifies each of us by number and links us to our church, the clubs we belong to, our correspondence about politics, our opinions on everything under the sun. Easy to separate people by their e-mail and other electronic collections. Easy to find who belongs to what religion, etc.

Let's just make it easy for the bigots and haters of the future. Every so many years, some extremist decides that the solution to the world's or at least his problems, the path to power is finding some group that he can use as a scapegoat.

And voila, you have an angry mob and take your pick, war, a Holocaust, genocide, maybe some new word for it, but it means lost life. I think that is immoral. Maybe the NSA doesn't. But it is one likely although not certain result of their I do believe well-meant effort to stop terrorism by placing virtually everyone under surveillance, conveniently organized and stored so as to make listing, classifying and sorting very easy for any future bigot who rises to a position of national or international leadership.

Think of it. Should some extremist group or individual or even a terrorist group gain control of the database . . . . too bad for the people that group or individual hate(s).