This message was self-deleted by its author

[Nanjing to Seoul]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Nanjing to Seoul) on Sat Jan 25, 2014, 03:13 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[fishwax]

1. you're asking if the man has some right to order her to bear a child?

Is that what you mean by "if the roles are reversed"?

But my question is simple. If a woman wants the child and the man doesn't, the man has no right to order her to have an abortion. IF the roles are reversed, how much say does a man, husband and father have if he wants a child and the mother doesn't?

If a man wants a child, they should find a partner who also wants a child. A man has no right to "order her" either way.

[Ilsa]

2. Bottom line: none.

It will always be her final decision on when to be pregnant.

Why would a partner want otherwise? Women who want the pregnancy are more likely to take better care of themselves.

But in a marriage, it is best if both partners want to have a baby.

[Javaman]

77. +1 nt

[Egnever]

122. Didn't have to read any farther

nailed it right there.

Oddly enough I was somewhat on the other side of this. My wife wanted kids and i really didn't. I love my wife and want her to be happy though so i gave in. Three monsters later we are finally done having kids . The funny thing about it is i love my kids and at this point am glad she talked me into it.

[Warpy]

160. Pregnancy is risky and uncomfortable. Labor is agony. And women bear the brunt of the work

of raising a child no matter how involved a father might be. That fact is reflected in both her paychecks and career path. Look up "mommy track" to find out the particulars of that.

She says she is not ready to face all that. Take her at her word. Just because you want to be a father doesn't mean she is equipped right now to bear such a heavy burden.

Good things are worth waiting for.

[kelliekat44]

188. Not to mention who will bear the brunt of the childcare. nt

[Eleanors38]

279. If she wants a baby and he doesn't, what then?

[Ilsa]

295. You're asking me to solve this problem?

How about couples therapy? How about she waits until he's on board with being a father? As I said, But in a marriage, it is best if both partners want to have a baby.

[Eleanors38]

330. No. Just getting some opinions, OK?

[PassingFair]

318. My guess is he shouldn't ejaculate into her.

Yes?

[TroglodyteScholar]

334. Yep.

It's something we men must, MUST come to accept.

[demmiblue]

3. None whatsoever (regarding your question in the third paragraph).

[gaspee]

4. When a man

Can have a uterus implanted and carry a child, then he can decide when to have a child himself.

It is best if both partners want children - and to be honest with each other about it. Not now sometimes does mean not now and sometimes it does mean not ever.

Two of my very good friends - high school sweethearts married 15 years - divorced over this issue. He wanted kids, she didn't and never would. They got divorced and within two years he was remarried an his new wife was pregnant. I think in the end it worked out better for them both. They are both happy now.

I think one partner wanting children and one not wanting children is an irreconcilable difference.

[ReasonableToo]

108. Exactly the phrase that came to my mind - irreconcilable difference

You can discuss some things and try to talk the other person into your way of thinking but in the end, there are some things that can't be agreed on by both people. Sometimes there is no common ground.

[MrMickeysMom]

337. That…there...^^^^^

Yeah-UP!

[BlueMTexpat]

5. Whose body will bear this hypothetical child?

That's the bottom line.

Period.

[shenmue]

6. I wish I could tell you

That is a puzzler. Sorry.

I hope the two of you can decide and it works out.

[Shankapotomus]

8. If you're ready to climb Mt. Everest

and your wife isn't does that give you a right to compel her to climb Mt. Everest with you? If it were such a deal breaker not to have a wife who climbs mountains with you, you are with the wrong person. That applies to any activity someone feels they and their spouse or significant other should be doing together. You can't force your wife to collect stamps either.

[PeaceNikki]

9. Exactly. Very well put.

Thank you.

[Shankapotomus]

13. I think the OP is confusing

an incompatibility in a personal activity preference with an abridgment of freedom. The man does have a choice the same as a woman. His choice is to find someone willing to participate jointly in his activity of preference.

[cinnabonbon]

49. Yes. Pretty much this.

[PeaceNikki]

10. The final decision is ALWAYS the woman. Always. No exception.

If that makes you or any man feel oppressed, tough fucking shit. Until you can carry and deliver your own baby, it's just how it is.

[Logical]

75. Tough fucking shit? Classy! Nice civil response! LOL, angry a lot? nt

[PeaceNikki]

76. Nope, but thanks for your concern!!

[11 Bravo]

107. There are individuals here with a vested interest in ensuring that NO discussion of this nature ...

remains civil.

[Logical]

113. Good point! nt

[PeaceNikki]

124. Super cute how you 2 hone in on one response in the whole thread.

And not my only one.

And by cute, I mean fucked up.

Way to be civil!

[Aerows]

230. It's the truth, though

If a woman isn't ready to have a child, bear it for 9 months and the associated health issues and labor pains, it's up to her to decide for herself. It may be that it is better for them to part ways if he is that anxious to be a father and find a woman that wants to bear children. Many women just plain do not. I don't and never will be interested in being a mother.

I'd rather say that up front than be unhappy and have children I don't want. Children should be wanted, cared for and loved - they should never be looked upon as a burden.

[bravenak]

240. This is a great comment.

My sister feels the same way you do. She does not ever want to have a child, never ever. She will break up with someone if they start in on talking about using her to manufacture their children for them. She will babysit my kids for a few hours, but she is so happy to give them back to me and take a nap.

[adigal]

139. But that child is genetically the father's also

I wonder about this a lot. What if one of son's girlfriends got pregnant and wanted an abortion, and he wanted the child? Legally, does he have recourse? I know that there have been court cases over this.

[Squinch]

140. And you'd be for forcing her to have the child? Okey dokey.

[adigal]

146. Say the man doesn't want a child?

You'd be forcing him to support that child for 18 years? Okey dokey.

You can't have it both ways. Either he has a say or not, he's responsible or not. That he has no say if he wants the child, and is legally responsible if he doesn't is absurd and illogical.

And I am a pro-choice woman. But I think both the mother and father should have a choice. Actions have consequences.

[Squinch]

151. What makes you think I'd be forcing him to support the child?

He has no say what the woman does with her own body.

And yes, actions have consequences. He shouldn't get a woman pregnant till they are in agreement. If he does, the consequence is that he has no choice about what she does with the pregnancy.

[Scout]

153. huzzah!

"And yes, actions have consequences. He shouldn't get a woman pregnant till they are in agreement. If he does, the consequence is that he has no choice about what she does with the pregnancy."

[kcr]

158. I'ts absurd and illogical to hold a child responsible for actions he/she had no control over

Why should the child suffer?

[TBF]

195. If the man doesn't want a child he shouldn't have one -

period.

His choice is to not have sexual relations. Actions have consequences.

[Niceguy1]

253. now , in the spirit of the discussion

apply your response to women. If women don't want to have babies they shouldn't have intercourse. Do you agree with that? Somehow I think you don't.

[TBF]

272. Right -

I do think contraceptives should be safe, legal, and available at low or no cost (sliding scale based upon income) to whomever wants them. Widely available, good health classes in every middle school. Education and good health care can do a lot to help in this area.

I do think that if a man or woman is so sure they don't want a child, or do want a child they should consider that with potential sexual partners. I wasn't making a big philosophical statement - I think that is just common sense.

But, yes, in the end I do believe that the choice of whether to carry a fetus to term rests with the person who has to carry that fetus in their body.

[kcr]

321. To be fair

I don't think women should be able to walk away from their children and not support them either. See the problem is you're using your argument as an example the context of the argument against abortion. It is true, if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant, she can not have sex. But that's still not a reason to ban abortion because women have autonomy over their own bodies. But neither men nor women can walk away from their children and their obligation to support them. The children didn't decide for their parents to have sex. The children didn't decide to be born. They shouldn't be punished for it.

[notadmblnd]

278. If a man doesn't want a child, then the man needs to keep it in his pants

or find an effective means of birth control for himself. It's not like men don't know that engaging in sexual intercourse can result in pregnancies, so I think that anytime a man has unprotected sex with a woman, he is consenting to becomming a father.

[JustAnotherGen]

197. This was alerted on

I never post when I'm on a jury but this one I had to . . . I'm juror number 4. This Post should not have been alerted on. If one wishes to have a list of "words we will edit or hide" that includes swear words put it up in Ask The Admin. now I'm a founding member, former Admin and current moderator at a site for women in a specific space and place in life. We actually call and verify your identity prior to your approval at our site, we do not allow ANY posts about political or social commentary events and ideas - and we have a list of words we will edit. The word twat is on tat list as well as he phrase white trash (took me years to get everyone to agree and see the light on that one). Be very careful what you ask for . . .


*******************************
On Thu Jan 23, 2014, 06:01 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

The final decision is ALWAYS the woman. Always. No exception.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4376082

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This person cannot control herself from cursing at other posters. Inappropriate.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jan 23, 2014, 06:08 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: cursing is not prohibited on DU
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alerter needs to grow a thicker skin if he wants to participate in Internet discussions. "Tough fucking shit" is crude language but it's not directed at another poster and it's hardly bad enough to warrant an attack of the vapors.


Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: With as many F bombs as we all hear on a daily basis if this woman who did not swear at anyone in particular wrote these words: fucking and shit has caused distress then the Internet is not for you. Yesterday evening someone posted A thread about not allowing your parrot to watch porn - for your reference: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024374235
It received more than 800 views.
13 recs
15 Responses

If that did not get alerted on (my husband and I were in tears laughing at it) then this must stand.

We also do not have a concise list of words we will edit.

If the alerter wishes to have such a list they should reach out to the admin of the site and have those two words added.

Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: PeaceNikki?

Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No reason for the rudeness

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[PeaceNikki]

199. lol, thanks!

I love when people act like having "peace" in my name is in conflict with getting pissed or cursing.

[JustAnotherGen]

200. I can't believe

Folks believe we need to edit those words. It's a waste of a good jury serve. But - if they feel strongly enough about it - then I expect to see a thread in Ask The Admin or whatever the procedures forum is at DU.

We have a TOS here that allows for free thought and free form language that allows for many different walks of life. The "Trash" button exists for a reason.

[PeaceNikki]

201. Ignore also works if my foul-mouth offends one's delicate sensibilities.

Yeah, I am a passionate person, especially so on the topic of women's reproductive freedom. And I come from a long line of foul-mouths. The word "Fuck" is on our family crest.

Curse words are fun and don't offend me. There's a great documentary called "Fuck". I highly recommend that the alerter watch it: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486585/

[Iggo]

349. Yep.

Tough.Fucking.Shit.

[Heidi]

11. Why would you want to have a child with someone who is not ready to parent?

My suggestion is that you go ahead and start your family with someone who is ready to be a parent.

[justiceischeap]

12. Um, but divorce the current wife, yes? nt

[Heidi]

14. Clearly, yes.

My point is that his wife isn't keeping him from having the family he wants.

Furthermore, no one should be compelled to have a child, and I can't imagine that the situation described in the OP would be anything approaching a healthy start for a child.

[justiceischeap]

15. I totally agree

The question he's asking shouldn't be "should a woman be compelled to have a child when the man wants one" but should be, should the man have asked these questions before getting married instead of assuming the woman would bend to his wishes or desires when he was ready. I can't believe someone would get married without having first discussed this. I also can't believe some men have the audacity to think it's their place to tell women when to have (or not have) children. It's not their bodies that the alien grows in and changes.

Might I suggest to the OP, that he discuss with his wife fostering children? There are many options out there for people who want children without forcing women to carry them.

[Heidi]

16. Well, he says, "She is not ready to be a mother."

That seems to me to involve not only carrying the child, but all of the other stuff that goes into being a parent.

It seems to me that the OP is skewed, because it implies that his wife is keeping him from having a child (re: "role reversal&quot and she's not.

[PeaceNikki]

19. Exactly.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

20. No. Don't pass judgement. I respect her decision and am waiting until she is ready to pursue a

family.

This is different than men in China who will force the child on their wives.

[PeaceNikki]

21. I didn't read Heidi's response as passing judgement, but stating facts.

I understand it's probably emotional for you, but the facts are still the facts.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

22. It is, but I accept. I just turned 35. I can wait a little longer if she wants to wait.

I want to be a father, but I am not pressuring her. And "divorce" is completely out of the question. Culturally, I might as well just kill her because it would be the same thing.

Chinese culture is very specific on marriage and divorce.

[PeaceNikki]

25. I (sort of) understand.

But from a purely factual perspective, she's not denying you your right to be a father. With her? maybe. And if it's a dealbreaker for you, you need to do what you need to do for yourself and her. If not, just love her enough to work through it. I just hope cultural norms don't make either or both of you miserable.

All the best.

[2naSalit]

81. Perhaps a pet?

Sorry but maybe you could find other pursuits that will require similar time, commitment and passion but not include bringing another human into it. I suspect that, maybe, being ready to be a parent could be a passing desire that cannot be undone if the desire passes after the fact. Maybe you could ask yourself what it is that makes you feel that you are ready to be a parent and how you plan to deal with unexpected/unforeseen issues (birth defects/political or environmental upheavals that make being responsible for others extremely difficult) that would make being a parent a major detriment to your life and happiness with your wife... aside from her lack of desire to be the bearer of children - remember, if something happens to you, she ends up having to take sole responsibility and that's a pretty tough sentence even in first world countries.

Personally, I wonder how people can even consider bringing another person into this world in which we now exist, it's not like the child has a choice, you would be responsible for bringing them here into a world of turmoil and continuously declining availability of basic needs like clean air, potable water, nutritious food, shelter, safety... you can no longer guarantee those things, even for you and your wife over the course of your lifetime. Maybe she feels this way and doesn't want the karma that goes with making such decisions for another person and then be responsible for them as well (and that's aside from all the physical issues of child-bearing).

Just a thought.

[bettyellen]

92. why would you follow some parts of the culture (staying together if miserable) and not others...

(forcing her to have kids). go for it, do what you want- the culture is already fucked up according to you.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

263. Nice ethnocentric attitude. Culture is already fucked up according to me

Fantastic. No wonder every country I've been to thinks Americans are crass, classless pigs.

[bettyellen]

290. Bullshit- you're doing a cafeteria version of the Chinese culture, so no reason to feel bound to it.

And why are you pretending to be polite when you are the one insulting everyone here?
Pigs? Maybe it's you giving everybody the idea Americans are crass. You have been rude as fuck to anyone who gives you a polite answer you don't like.

[MADem]

106. Is this a change of heart? Did you discuss this before you married?

If you can't divorce, and she doesn't change her mind, you'll be a textbook example of "Marry in haste, repent at leisure" perhaps...?

[amuse bouche]

236. "Chinese culture is very specific on marriage and divorce"

Awesome excuse to be a sheep and not use common sense, and respect for the woman

BTW... you should have discussed the whole 'need to be a daddy' before marriage

"I might as well just kill her"--nice cult...er culture you belong to

If I knew her, I would advise her to run for her life and never look back

[Nanjing to Seoul]

257. Screw you, buddy. You have no idea what you are talking about

Piss off. And if this gets blocked and deleted so be it. I asked for a respectful answer to a discussion and you're broadcasting your ignorance.

"Chinese culture is very specific on marriage and divorce." Not sheep. . .cultural understanding. Divorce is simply out of the question in her mind. Vows to traditional Chinese girls are not taken lightly.

We did discuss. I knew the story before. I was asking a question for input from people. Nice to see you're a jerk.

"Nice cult. . .er" ARe you normally a racist, bigotted, snarky, crass and ignorant to people from other countries. I'm American, slappy.

"If you knew her." Her email is [e-mail]. Her name is Wei Huan. Email my wife and tell her to run from me and next look back. Make sure it's in Mandarin. She can't read English.

[JTFrog]

305. I'd be pissed if my husband posted my real name and email address online on some forum.

This whole thread is a fucking train wreck. You'd be wise to just self delete the OP and a few of your replies.

Just my two coppers.

[Niceguy1]

254. if you sre in the US

Then I would reconsider, especially if this is a post marriage development. having children is perfectly normaland she never mentioned it prior to not have them before the marriage then that for me would be a dealbreaker.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

258. I'm not in the US. I'm in China.

[Niceguy1]

262. oh that makes sense then

sorry I missed that. Thanks for the interesting thread. you're right about Asian women on dating one right now and by far she is the best woman I've ever dated.

[Heidi]

24. I'm not passing judgment. You asked the question

and based on your OP, I shared my views. I'm glad you are respecting your wife's position, and hope the two you have many, many years of happiness together.

As for people in any culture who impose their will on their partners: :shudder:

[boston bean]

37. So.... what is your opinion?

having any say that would make a woman a have a baby is forcing, no?

[bettyellen]

91. will you respect it if she chooses never to bear a child? she may expect to be ready someday...

but that day might not come. How will you feel about that? At least, unlike a woman, you don't have a timetable at all- just a preference for when. Be grateful, and find another mate if being childless will make you miserable.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

192. Yes. . .I will. However, knowing Chinese culture and the overwhelming desire for

girls here to be mothers (especially with the opportunity to have a 眼娃娃, saying she will never want children is the height of Chinese culturally ignorance.

[bettyellen]

202. No, it's the height of ignorance to assume every woman wants to bear children….

Even in the USA, many people over the years told me they were certain I would change my mind and want kids someday. They were all wrong. So, it could happen to you too.

Many people tend to put off things again and again stalling until it turns out- they never do it- especially if there is pressure to be "polite" about it- and not state your own wishes. Sad her own desires might be repressed by all that cultural ignorance- as if she is just a "girl" who doesn't know better. Sad to hear it, if that is how it is.

What is 眼娃娃 - and what is go great about it? BTW, here in the USA, we generally call women- when we are discussing them) women, you might try to be a bit culturally sensitive- because it comes off as insulting. They are not your wife, we're talking about adults here, we are not in China.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

212. Okay. . .buddy. I am an American. If I call my wife a "girl," she will scream she is not

You know nothing about Chinese culture, Chinese people or Chinese life. I do. I've lived here for six years.

洋娃娃 (my apologies on the first character. I wrote it wrong) is "yang wa wa," a Chinese euphemism for a "mixed blood baby." The desire to have one is high because (and I will quote) "洋娃娃非常可爱 (Mixed blood babies are extremely cute)."

Again, thanks for the judgmental response to my question. . .it was the style of answer I asked in the OP not to be subjected to.

I will just repeat. . .I am in China. I will use the language use the language they use here. Try to develop a little cultural understanding of different cultures. Not everyone is American.

[kcr]

222. Well aren't you just the boss of DU

And you think you imagine you know it all about everything, too. No one else could possibly know anything about China, here. You've married someone from China and moved there, so that makes you the expert!

[Nanjing to Seoul]

260. When you live here as long as I have, talk to me.

Until then, what westerners don't know about this place would fill books.

[kcr]

274. Given what I've seen of your expertise in this thread

I'd definitely go to other sources for knowledge about China.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

284. Whatever makes your jiggle wiggle.

[kcr]

299. I'll admit, I'm no expert myself

But somehow, I'm very skeptical of your claims in this thread that men in China force women to have babies, except women all want to have babies so how that jives with your claims of men forcing them, I don't know. And the women all want to be called girls. Which you contradict by saying your wife will get angry if you call her a girl because the women in China don't like that! I sense confusion, maybe.

[bettyellen]

312. I love the part about how he loves her because she totally spoils him, as if solicitous servicing

from your partner is what matters most. Nothing else about her is notable. Kind of sounds like a person who could not hack a modern marriage in the US. And reminiscent of those who purchase overseas brides.

[kcr]

313. I thought the same thing

He sounds just like the men who give the reasons why they go overseas for mail order brides.

[bettyellen]

315. and WTF with all the- "I'm just posing a question" about a repulsive idea- not that I have ANY skin

in this game at a all, or support for the idea. And then it's about forced reproduction, LOL. Okay…

There seems to be a lot of posters bringing in bizarre and inflammatory hypotheticals and pretending they are not leaving big fat ugly racist or sexist turds in GD. Very odd stuff.

[kcr]

317. I know. So transparent.

It's the trolling equivalent of "I'm asking for a friend"

[bettyellen]

319. the funny twist is- "I am so assimilated into this backward culture it is not my fault…"

just considering goose-stepping along with the human rights violations that occur around me, not my fault at all, LOL.

Because liberals are supposed to accept cultural differences, no matter what. Yeah, not happening.

[kcr]

323. Did you see the post

where he gave out his wife's email and phone number?

I hope it's not real.

[bettyellen]

338. and the weird comment- go ahead and contact her- it's futile! Bwaaah ha ha ha *twirls mustache*

[Nanjing to Seoul]

356. QQ numbers are not phone numbers. God in heaven, I am so glad I left the States if this

is the level of tolerance and respect people have for each other.

I am glad I am in Asia.

[kcr]

357. Oh, excuse me, QQ number. That's different

For a minute there I thought you were giving out your wife's personal contact info... Oh, wait! You are!

[Nanjing to Seoul]

359. You made the assumption I am mistreating her and saying "if you could, you'd tell her to run

and not look back."

Have at it, hoss. She's expecting your email.

但是，她不知道和不会英文，所以你需要发给她在中文。 她只可以明白中文。 谢谢你

[kcr]

361. Again

Oh, excuse me, QQ number. That's different... In other words, I'd say my assumptions are dead on.

Have at it? You wouldn't mind if total strangers you're arguing with on a message board contact your wife? What a lucky girl she is. No, I'm not going to contact your wife. Good lord.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

362. It's called "calling a bluff." Good God, they give out their QQ numbers to complete strangers

all the time here. Guess what. . .NOTHING bad happens.

Sad when a people assume the worst about others and think they are always right.

Now, since you have convinced yourself I am a rotten person, please don't respond.

[kcr]

364. In all of China? Wow!

That's amazing. They don't mind when people give out their personal info? And get contacted by total strangers? Magical place is China.

Too bad, Boss of DU. I responded to your post anyway. I don't live in China.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

363. They also do selective abortions, which is why there are more boys than girls in China

Traditional Chinese thought is to have sons.

Again, you claim you're no expert then tell someone one the ground here he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Please don't respond. Your ignorance has you on ignore.

[kcr]

365. I have actually heard about the more boys than girls in China

I think that is true.

[bettyellen]

288. Ah, you are American, which explains why you do not try to respect the culture of those you're

addressing. The Chinese I work with usually do try to not use insulting words, and would feel awful if it was explained they had committed a faux pas- they would be grateful to know so they didn't continue to be rude. You have no such qualms, LOL. Isn't that special- taking the worst from both cultures!
BTW, when you ask for someone's opinion, you are going to get a judgement.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

358. I live in China. How can I not respect their culture?

Chinese people use insulting words in their language, assuming the foreigner doesn't understand or speak the language.

I do both. You know how many times I've heard black people referred to as 黑鬼 and white people referred to as 鬼佬. Or Koreans referred to as 棒子. Let's not go into the insulting words directed at the Japanese or Southeast Asians.

Hell, the Taiwanese call the mainlanders 共匪, which means "Communist Bandit."

Honestly, the ignorance is deafening coming from people who HAVE NEVER LIVED IN CHINA!!!

[bettyellen]

368. I was noting you hand't picked up the Asian extra polite style of interaction, and instead insult

people here at DU for merely answering your question honestly. You enjoy insulting people too much to seem to have assimilated much.
And, so now you respect the "better dead than divorced" and already asked us all to consider "forcing" people to have children? Worst of both worlds right there! Yikes!

[bettyellen]

369. why did you post all these racial slurs here? you are not ignorant of American culture as to think

that this could possibly be okay. This is ugly to see.

[kcr]

370. We're just a bunch of dumb old Americans

It isn't possible that anyone here will understand. And even if that's the case, we couldn't possibly know how to use a translator. Only he is special enough to move to China and learn all about it.

[Aerows]

232. Not every woman

in ANY culture wants to have children. You may IMAGINE that they do, since you want to be a father, but there are many women who have no desire to. I think you are projecting your desire to be a father on "every woman".

[gollygee]

277. Women are human beings

they are their own individual human beings first and foremost, just like men.

[amuse bouche]

281. "This is different than men in China who will force the child on their wives"

You deserve a medal for not being a typical rapist. What a guy

[Chan790]

51. You can't count on people to remain where they were before marriage either.

One of my college friends was very vocal upfront that he was never ever going to contemplate having children starting years before marriage; he hates children. His wife said "I don't want them either." This lasted until her friends started having babies, then she wanted a baby. After enough cajoling he began to suspect that she'd stopped taking her birth control despite knowing he never wanted kids and she'd agreed to it; so he went and got a vasectomy. Now all they do is bicker about how he robbed her of "her right to motherhood."

They're Catholic enough that divorce is not an option. Apparently lifelong mutual misery is.

[catbyte]

109. Refusal to have kids is a justifiable reason for divorce according to the Church

Just sayin'

[WinkyDink]

127. That might be for an annulment, but never a divorce.

[ReasonableToo]

111. Apart from an unhappy marriage, it sounds like he made the right call...

...and exercised his rights over his body. He doesn't want kids and now he won't.

For a man who wants kids, I think your only valid option is to find someone who is genuinely agreeable. Could be current wife in time. Could be next wife.

[laundry_queen]

267. So true. And sometimes a spouse will lie beforehand.

My now-ex told me he wanted many children. I wanted at least 5 kids, and I wanted to be young when I started and I was very upfront about wanting a big family. I talked about it constantly. He knew exactly what he was getting in to and always told me he wanted the same thing, at least 5 kids and he wanted to start while we were young because he had older parents that weren't very involved and he wanted to be involved.

I found out later, after we had 4 children, after he left me for another woman that what he told me about wanting kids was a lie. He never wanted so many kids. He said he never really enjoyed family life and that he just said that he wanted lots of kids because, and I quote, "I was young, I would've said anything to get you in bed." (found out later he's likely a sociopath or a malignant narcissist)

I'm currently raising those 4 kids on my own. My ex sees them 1 weekend a month. Luckily, he has no issues paying for them, but he's not involved at all. Had I known the truth, I never would've stayed with him and had children with him. I feel like those years were totally wasted. I only had children with him because he told me he wanted the same things and that he valued family life etc. So sometimes, even when you do discuss this stuff beforehand, you can get burned as you have shown with your college friend. Why they wouldn't get a divorce is beyond me. Now that I know the truth, how my whole relationship with my ex was a lie, I cannot imagine still being with him. I don't get why anyone would want to live with that. ugh.

[marions ghost]

303. That is true

people do lie about whether they want kids or not. I saw it happen with a friend who now has a child and it is apparent the father will never be the father he promised to be.

But I just wonder how you could have had four? Did he give no signs? Were you believing in him right up to the fourth? If so, he was a great actor.

It is irresponsible, even maybe masochistic on his part to father four when he never wanted them.
He sure is screwed up--narcissist is a good possibility.

Glad he finally left and you are better off.

[laundry_queen]

304. He gave hints

but it was always in a joking manner. He sometimes would act stressed when I was pregnant and I'd ask him about it, but he always just said he was stressed about another mouth to feed and that all guys act that way when there's a baby on the way. Our last 2 weren't planned. I had a difficult time getting pregnant with the first 2, and have a condition that means I'm not very fertile so we never thought accidents were possible. My 3rd was due to a medication meant to control aforementioned condition (fertility is a side effect they recognized years after I took it) and my 4th was just us not being careful. After our 3rd he mentioned he thought he was done having kids and I told him if he didn't want anymore kids that it was a good time to get a vasectomy. I even made him the doctor appointment. He never went.

Until the 4th, he always acted like he wanted the kids. With the 4th pregnancy he treated me like shit. Later, after we split, I figured he was probably cheating during that time (he was cheating for years). I sensed he was upset about baby #4, because he wouldn't talk to me when I told him and so I offered to have an abortion if he was that upset about it, but he mellowed and said, no he didn't want that and that he just needed to get used to the fact, that a new baby was unexpected (she was born 4 years after #3) but that he was okay with it.

Funny (not haha funny) enough, some narcissists like having children because they see them as an extension of themselves. I think he saw that part as a bonus. But I think because we have all girls, he was always hoping for a boy with each new pregnancy - though he would never admit that. Having girls allows him to say things like, "that's your job, I know nothing about being a girl" if I ask him for help or advice with the kids - even before we were divorced.

He *is* a great actor. He told a lot of lies. He totally snowed a lot of people - me, his parents, his best friend & business partner (the one who came and told me about the cheating), my parents, our friends...no one saw it coming. He stole money from his parents and mine. He put us into bankruptcy, he lived a double life...oh I could go on. But none of those close to him even suspected a thing. All our couple friends told me he was the last person on earth they thought would do such a thing. A true sociopath.

[marions ghost]

309. You prove my suspicions correct

my NPD radar was up even before you elaborated...

Narcissists like having children "as an extension of themselves"--I think so but then when the kids grow older, if they're not submissive and constantly admiring, the kids get hated on. (Those kids usually have a good chance of escaping from it, because they see the pathology). Or, in some families the kids are trained to be narcissists also and don't see it as pathology--for example, Dubya. The whole Bu*h family is a mutually supportive den of Narcissists.

"always hoping for a boy" ...
Some men do take out their disappointment at having girls on the mother and the daughters--they should be ashamed. You rarely hear of a woman disappointed that she has only boys--she's usually OK with it. (Not asking him to "be a girl"--asking him to be a father to humans...duh) That statement alone tells a lot about him.

Others can learn from your story. You will raise those girls right Pretty safe to say you are lucky to be out of this marriage. I think you've got his number. Glad you have lots of support in this view. The worst is when others don't understand that life with a Narcissist /sociopath can be a living hell. They can make you feel like you're the crazy one. And they are often such good actors you can't tell what they're really thinking at all. Even after a long period of time they don't usually change all that much. The pattern is not very curable. The Narcissist usually refuses to recognize their affliction.

[laundry_queen]

322. oh yeah, I know all about NPD now

and through therapy we discovered I was raised by a couple of narcissists as well which explains why I didn't see any red flags with my ex. I'm pretty good at picking them out now, though. And through reading a ton, I can tell when my ex is lying - I know all his tells now. He hates it and therefore doesn't make my life hell, generally, because he hates it when I call him out (great way to deal with a narcissist - because they are so predictable tell them exactly what they are thinking and planning and watch the panic in their eyes. Narcissists never like to deal with people who have their number and will avoid at all costs.)

Anyway I agree with everything you've said and I SO agree with the Bushes. Although I think Dubya is more of a sociopath.

[msanthrope]

296. She has a great annulment case. nt

[eridani]

27. That's going to hurt if they love each other and are suited in other ways

Still, this basic incompatibility is going to erode their closemess over time. Better to bite the bullet and do what is necessary before that happens.

[randome]

17. Mother/Father Nature gave us weird bodies. But we're stuck with them.

Biology says mothers have the first and last say in the matter. That's just reality.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[Heidi]

18. She's not ordering you not to have a child.

So your "IF the roles are reversed" part is comparing apples to oranges, in my opinion.

[freedom fighter jh]

23. This is part of what makes abortion a difficult issue.

It's the woman that bears the child, but the child belongs in equal parts to both parents.

In a case where there is no accidental pregnancy, IMO, it's simpler: There should be no pregnancy unless both prospective parents agree. Getting a baby forced on you is not a good way to enter parenthood.

That said, if one person in a relationship has good reason to want a baby soon (one person getting older is usually the reason), the other one should take that into account. Continuing to function after sleepless nights is harder if you are older.

Bottom line for my opinion: Except in an accidental pregnancy, the two prospective parents matter equally.

[geek tragedy]

48. with all due respect:

1) a child does not 'belong' to parents--boys and girls are not property

2) it is simply not true that 'the two prospective parents matter equally'--it's the woman's body, and therefore the woman's choice. If she wants to see the pregnancy through to the end, that's the end of the discussion. If she wants to abort, that's the end of the discussion. One can argue on whether she should consult the man who impregnated her, but at the end of the day his role is not authority, but advisory.

[Javaman]

79. +1 nt

[redqueen]

95. +1

[PowerToThePeople]

104. At the end of the day his role is not authority, but advisory.

I agree with this completely. I have lived it first hand.

[lumberjack_jeff]

110. "The day" in question is childbirth, so I fully agree.

Parenting begins on that day. The day on which dad's role becomes more than advisory.

[freedom fighter jh]

123. We're not talking about abortion.

We're talking about getting pregnant deliberately.

Looks like you can't handle the nuances of the word "belong."

[adigal]

141. Genetically, and legally, that fetus is both parents

I'm looking for court cases, because I know there have been some.

Such black and white thinking on pregnancy and abortion is simplistic and absurd.

[geek tragedy]

145. Genetically, duh.

Legally, the father has no rights until the child is born.

[adigal]

148. So why does he have to pay support if he doesn't want the child?

Seems like you want it both ways.

[geek tragedy]

150. Because it's in the best interest of the child. He's not allowed to financially

blackmail the mother into getting an abortion. That money is for the benefit of the child, not the mother.

Duh redux. You get a woman pregnant, you're on the hook for at least two decades if she so chooses. You don't get to escape responsibility by demanding she get an abortion.

[adigal]

159. I love when people have to curse at others because they lose arguments.

How many people have you cursed at on this thread? You really are silly.

[geek tragedy]

164. I'm not the one lying about whether the law gives a man the

right to control a woman's body because he impregnates her.

[adigal]

166. If you grow up, and can act respectfully, I would discuss this further

But I'm not hopeful.

[geek tragedy]

168. heh, please proceed, please provide evidence for your assertion

that if a man gets a woman pregnant, he has a legal right to determine what her decisions regarding her own body.

[kcr]

171. And you want it all one way. No responsibility whatsoever for men.

But you call yourself pro-choice in another post if I'm not mistaken, which is laughable. Because women have the uterus, they have all the responsibility and men are totally off the hook? Boy, that would be a real great set up for them if that ever came to pass.

[adigal]

149. And why the "duh"? Are you incapable of having a discussion

Without being insulting? I'm a teacher and you would fail my class!

[geek tragedy]

152. Because everyone over the age of 9 knows how reproduction in

humans works.

[adigal]

156. Yes. You fool around, you get pregnant.

I can tell you are very young. Before 1973, when there was a case called "Roe v Wade," pregnant women mostly had their babies. Abortions were illegal, which means not legal, in the USA.

I hope you understand now.

[geek tragedy]

161. Abortion is legal in the United States now, just like women

now have the legal right to sue for sexual harassment, something that was not true pre-1973 either.

Pre-1973 America was really backwards and stupid on gender rights.

[Scout]

162. do you act like a condescending jerk with your students?

i feel sorry for them if so.

[adigal]

165. No, just with people who curse at me on the Internet

I respect my students and they act thoughtfully in return, not like this little twit who has cursed at numerous people on this thread alone.

Why you defending such a nasty fool?

[geek tragedy]

167. better question is why are you pushing anti-choice propaganda by claiming

a woman doesn't have the legal right to choose between abortion and giving birth, completely regardless of what the man who impregnated her wants?

Because, quite honestly, such rancid stupidity and dishonesty deserves more scorn than mere curse words can deliver.

[adigal]

170. Choice should be for both parents if the man is legally responsible

Simple logic.

[geek tragedy]

172. Your belief that a man should have control over a woman's body

if he gets her pregnant is something that we as a society should have outgrown centuries ago.

[adigal]

176. I believe a man should have some say, maybe not the final say,

in what happens to fetus/child that is from his semen. Otherwise, don't make him pay child support if he doesn't want the child. That is what sticks in my craw.

[geek tragedy]

177. he does have 50% of the say once there is a child and 50%

of the financial obligation, once there is a child.

When there is no child, he has no say.

What he does not get to choose is whether there will be a child if there's a pregnancy. Not fair? Boo hoo. Neither is the fact that the woman has to bear the child and all of the pain and financial and medical risks that come with pregnancy.

[Scout]

191. "some say"

but not the final say.

so how would that work out? he 50% says she should have the child, she says 50% she's going to have an abortion ... so she has the final say, and gets the abortion.

what was the point in him having any say? unless you meant he says 51% she has the child, she says 49% she's having the abortion ... so he gets to force into child birth??

help me out here, you're the one crying out for logical, etc. So how would it work??

[amuse bouche]

246. If the man doesn't want a child,

he shouldn't have sex.

[The Straight Story]

355. Same with a woman ? (nt)

[kcr]

360. Is it women who have to worry about the other partner getting pregnant

and then being the one that gets to make the decision whether or not to have the baby?

[uppityperson]

203. The man is financially responsible, not legally, for the child. Simple legalese.

[Scout]

169. not defending anything, asking a question

i guess in your world two wrongs make a right, eh? a "nasty fool" curses at you, so you act like a condescending jerk to them. (you agreed you do that.)

calling other DUers "little twit" and "nasty fool" is not appropriate, don't you think?

[adigal]

173. You know, this place is so uncivil and I don't like being cursed at

And if I ask her why she is cursing, and she curses some more, then she is a twit and a fool. Life is going to be very hard for her, indeed, if she doesn't learn to act civilly. Calling her a twit is going to be the least of her problems in life. I know. I've seen a few, not many, in my 25 years teaching. It doesn't end well.

[geek tragedy]

175. maybe you should head over to Free Republic where your fellow forced birthers and anti-choice

sexists would appreciate your stance more.

[adigal]

178. I was causing trouble for them over years ago!

Stop being a condescending nasty person. If you curse at people like you did oh this thread, and condescend to them, you are going to have a very miserable life. You certainly won't be ale to keep a job.

And that you call me a birther, etc., is so silly. Again, are you 12? I have a different opinion on this, that makes me a freeper? Lol! You are ridiculous.

[OwnedByCats]

224. I don't think you're a forced birther and you have a point

In my view, personally, I would not want to be forced to carry on with a pregnancy I did not want. Equally I would not want to be forced into terminating. I would give the man the chance to tell me his feelings on the matter. The decision still rests with me. However, if the man wanted the pregnancy to continue and would support me, that's one thing. If he did not, I would say my goodbyes and not seek child support. I would not force a man to participate, even financially, if it wasn't what he wanted. I know that many other women do not think like me in terms of forcing support and will seek it anyway. Seems a little hypocritical to me though. As far as terminating when the man wanted the pregnancy, it is sad when this happens, but unfortunately men cannot carry their own babies.

Just because it's my decision at the end of the day, it doesn't mean the man has to be treated with such dismissive disdain unless he is deserving of it. By just simply offering his feelings, it should be taken into consideration and talked about. But of course, it's still up to the woman ultimately.

[PotatoChip]

329. A child has a right to be supported by both parents

regardless how you or the father 'feel' about it.

However, if the man wanted the pregnancy to continue and would support me, that's one thing. If he did not, I would say my goodbyes and not seek child support. I would not force a man to participate, even financially, if it wasn't what he wanted

[OwnedByCats]

332. I'm just saying

If it were ME and only ME (although other woman have been known to do it on their own by choice), I would not seek support if he didn't want any part of it. I just don't like to force people to my will. If a woman wants to seek support, should she? Of course, it's just not something I personally would do. That's not a reflection of what ALL woman should do.

[PotatoChip]

341. That is an awfully selfish position to take, in my opinion.

Me, me, me...

I will reiterate. A child has a right to be supported by both parents regardless of how you and the father 'feel' about it. You both (hypothetically) made the child. You both need to support that child.

[OwnedByCats]

342. Selfish?

How is that selfish? If the man doesn't want to be involved, what kind of father do you think he'll be? One that only sends a check once in a while begrudgingly? The support is about the money. If he wanted to be a decent father, I couldn't give a shit less if he had no money to give. Him being a father is more important but if he can't do that, why should he be around just to be a shitty father??

If he decided later he wanted to be a good dad, that's entirely different and that would be what I would prefer. We don't always get what we prefer though, do we? We don't always get what our kids DESERVE. Of course all kids deserve both parents, but unfortunately, some people don't give a shit about that. If the man doesn't give a shit, I don't need him or his money until if and when he starts because if he doesn't give a shit, I will never be able to rely on him anyway. I would always leave the door open for him, but if he never comes through it, it's certainly not how I would like it to be and it's not fair, but unfortunately life isn't always fair.

[PotatoChip]

343. The child deserves to be financially supported by both parents. Period (nt)

[OwnedByCats]

344. But whether the father

complies, is another matter.

[Scout]

190. snort

oh wise one, thank you so much for sharing of your vast knowledge with we poor, young, inexperienced twits and fools.



perhaps, like you, she returns like for like.

[geek tragedy]

174. adigal is a forced birther and anti-choice--thinks that if a man gets a woman pregnant

he should have legal control over her body.

That's what this argument is about.

once you appreciate that, everything else about their behavior makes sense.

[adigal]

179. Who is "their"? Have I been promoted to the royal "we"?

I'm so excited.

[geek tragedy]

185. I do not know your gender, ergo the neutral term. It's a deficiency of the English language

that there is no gender-neutral singular pronoun for people.

[kcr]

184. Aw, she's starting to pick on your grammar.

You know you're doing well when your opponent is resorting to nit picking grammar and typos.

[Scout]

187. LOL

adigal thinks you're losing the argument if you use profanity, hahaha when she's losing she does this:
"You know you're doing well when your opponent is resorting to nit picking grammar and typos"

[kcr]

189. And she's not even entirely correct

[cynatnite]

125. Sorry, but in the end it's the woman's body and her decision...

The father's opinion only matters if she chooses to take it in consideration. The decision is ultimately hers. There is no getting around that no matter your opinion.

[freedom fighter jh]

128. She agreed to take his opinion into consideration when she married him. nt

[Squinch]

143. I am sure she is taking his opinion into consideration. She just isn't following it. As is her right

.

[uppityperson]

204. I had this problem with someone once, "you asked my opinion but didn't do what I advised". Well, yes

asking for an opinion, taking someone's opinion into consideration does NOT mean doing what they say. You still have a choice.

And I do not remember that part being in the marriage statutes I signed "parties shall take each other's opinions into consideration".

[freedom fighter jh]

242. I meant about having children, not generally.

Having children is still one of the main reasons people marry.

If one party wants to have a baby but the other does not, the two need to come to some kind of agreement. Coming to an agreement entails taking each other's opinions into consideration. Being unable to have children because your partner doesn't want any, or being forced to have children because your partner wants them while you don't, is pretty bad. People of both sexes suffer pretty much equally when either of these things happens, either not getting a chance to have a child or being pressed to be responsible for and raise a child that you really don't want.

it makes sense to make sure you're on the same page about these things as the person you marry about these things, and most people do that. The problem is that, especially if you've decided not to have children, people's wishes change. One member of a couple may come to want children while the other one does not.

Wanting or not wanting to have children is much more than advice. Having children determines where your life together goes.

Both members of the couple need to have equal parts in the decision.

In practice that can be tricky. I think what it means is that the person who feels more strongly is the one who gets his/her way.

[elehhhhna]

282. Look, chunkhead, you have no idea if it's your baby (if you're a man)

until it's born and a dna test can be done. So if you want a baby, find a woman who wants your baby, isn't going to get with other men, and have one already.

[freedom fighter jh]

291. What the f*** are you talking about? nt

[another_liberal]

26. Whose body is the fetus in?

Any man who is carrying a developing fetus in his womb has the right to decide whether or not to have an abortion and end his pregnancy.

[MrScorpio]

28. None whatsoever

Which emphasizes the point of picking a like minded partner from the git-go.

[sendero]

29. This one is too easy..

... to require much contemplation. The father has no rights in this situation whatsoever.

And there are very good reasons for that which I will eschew outlining right now.

[Shankapotomus]

30. I think I missed addressing

the dilemma posed in your question in my first response so I'm going to try to answer at a deeper level.

If I got this right, what I missed in addressing your question originally was that the man CONTRIBUTED to the process of making a baby so why doesn't he have a say, correct?

I think you may find what follows a more complete answer than my first. I'll keep it simple.

Suppose, just for argument's sake, it takes two people to bake a pie? Him and Her. Now in the first step of making the pie, both him and her contributed the ingredients and mixed them together. In other words, they both voluntarily PREPARED the pie for baking. But, as with any joint activities between people, for that activity to be complete there has to be an unbroken chain of voluntary participation by both parties throughout the process. If one of either party elects to bow out at any stage of the process, that is their right, and the process stops there. This applies to any joint activity between people. There's nothing that says just because someone started an activity with you or initiated a process that they must finish it. As with any transaction, a person may elect to cease participation at any time. As in the case of the pie, if the person who helped you mix the ingredients decides not to help you put the pie in the oven, the pie doesn't get baked.

So this goes back to my original answer, only slightly modified, regarding joint participation in any activity. If your wife doesn't want to FINISH an activity with you, she shouldn't be compelled to do so.

Looking at it from your side, if you agree to engage in intimacy with your wife, should you be compelled to follow that process through to conception? Not if you don't want to.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

31. Again, I will clarify. she wants a child. . .not now though. I accept.

My question was more abstract than just what is happening with me in Suzhou.

Please limit the snark. I asked a simple question because I wanted to see if had agreement in my idea, and I do.

Thank you.

BTW, I'm not divorcing her over this. I love this girl to death (yes, young women in China like being called girls and not women. I learned that fast in 2007 when I got my head bitten off) and am not leaving her. Asian woman spoil the shit out of men and it's amazing how men here take it for granted.

[kcr]

36. Is this thread going the way you thought it would?

Look at how nice everyone is being!

[Phentex]

41. Well, I get that. No one should ever be forced to have a child, not even you.

If she were ready to adopt and you were not, you should not be talked into adopting a child. There is more to this argument than who carries the child, in my opinion.

[mainer]

96. This is not abstract. I'm sorry people here are making it so.

Anyone who has ever wanted or deeply loved a child knows what you're going through, and you have my sympathies.

My own son is having this issue right now. He wants children; his partner does not. They love each other, are great together, but this is coming between them. He asked us recently, "do you know any older couples who disagreed about having children who are now happy together?"

We had to say, "No."

We know couples who couldn't have children, and are sad about it, but they are happy together because they simply had to accept what biology meted out to them.

We also know a couple who had different opinions about having children. The wife wanted a baby, her husband did not. They are now in their sixties, and the woman bitterly regrets never having had the chance.

[Ilsa]

98. THE PATIENCE YOU LEARN FROM WAITING WILL

SERVE YOU WELL AS A PARENT.

I capped it to make sure you see my post.

Good luck! It sounds like the two of you can make it if you remember your love for each other and be patient.

[eShirl]

32. She's not the only woman on earth, after all.

If a man wishes to be a father, he can find a woman who is willing to have children with him.

[B Calm]

34. My thoughts too.

[Inkfreak]

33. I understand how you would feel.

I can understand the desire to have that child. But you are simply going to have to wait till she is ready. Good luck with life tho, and if she is willing at some point, then when it happens you'll both be happy & blessed.

[riqster]

35. I think we can have a role, to offer our thoughts.

And that is all. The woman must bear the child, and so the decision is hers, and hers alone.

[bemildred]

38. I had my last son at 41.

I was a better father for it. But you can't keep up later on ...

In this case, you will have to choose. One ought never force parenting on anyone, it is not fair to the children.

[TransitJohn]

39. Go find a surrogate mother

Problem solved

[get the red out]

40. None, because it is her body

One would hope that important decisions like when to have children would be worked out within the relationship. But in the end it is her body that must endure the pregnancy, and no other person should be given a say in what someone does with their body.

[Bettie]

42. In a healthy relationship

A woman will discuss and consider the wishes of the father.

But, in the end, her body, her decision.

It has to be that way. If you can find a way to gestate a body in your (general you and your) body, then it will be your decision.

[MineralMan]

43. The decision to reproduce should always be a mutual one.

If either person is not ready, then it shouldn't happen. Seems simple enough to me.

[polichick]

90. It's only "simple" if the one wanting a child is okay with not having one...

Sometimes the mismatch leads to divorce and remarriage to someone who is on the same page about children.

[Cleita]

44. Husbands should be involved equally in family planning.

However, the form this family planning takes is the issue. If your wife does want children down the line, you must respect that this means not now. If she never wants children and you do, you probably will need to find another wife who wants children because you cannot force a woman to bear and raise children, who doesn't want them. Bottom line is why didn't you discuss this before you were married? Well, if you didn't, you need to discuss this now.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

46. again, the discussion happened. the answer is "not now. soon, but not now."

missing the point of my question. this is isn't about me. it's an in general question.

[Cleita]

47. Then you have your answer. She has consented to have children when she's ready, if she's being

honest with you. Only you know that. However, you can't force her to do it. What goes in and out of her body goes in and out only with her consent. I think you would feel the same about your body.

[get the red out]

283. I will say this much

That sounds like an answer that is going in the direction you are hoping for because I told my husband up front that the idea of having kids was a deal-breaker, I was never going to be a mother and my worst fear on earth was getting pregnant. I laid that out in no uncertain terms at all.

Just judging by my own feelings, and knowing that I absolutely would have never said "soon" about kids; she sounds like you guys aren't that far apart on the idea of children.

[geek tragedy]

45. men have absolute control over their sperm

once you surrender that, you're done making decisions

[jollyreaper2112]

50. There's two cases here

One, there's no pregnancy.
Two, there's a pregnancy.

When there's no pregnancy, I think either party has the right to dissent. If the decision is not unanimous, no baby. A divorce could follow which is within either party's right. If the man or woman doesn't want a child, they can find a partner who is more willing. And this really should have been discussed before marriage in the first place. If it was and an agreement was made and someone changed their mind, oh well.

If there is a pregnancy, I tend to default to the woman getting more of a say because it's her body. If she doesn't want the pregnancy, she shouldn't be forced to term. That's just basic human rights. If the man wants the baby and she does not, that's kind of horrific. Here's the baby he's always wanted and she's going to abort it. But you weigh that horror against the horror of denying her the right to control her own body. Not good. Put the other way around, she wants the baby and he's not ready for it and now he's on the hook for child support for the next 18 years. And there are women who will deliberately get pregnant to trap a guy into the relationship, deliberately stop birth control, just like there are guys who will punch their woman in the stomach repeatedly to force a miscarriage. There's enough horror stories from all sides here.

I don't have any answers but it sounds like you guys have some talking to do.

[adigal]

144. Men do get screwed either way

If the woman doesn't want his child, he has no say in the abortion.

If the man doesn't want his child, he has to support that child for 18 years.

As a woman, I find this ridiculous and offensive. We need to have in one way or the other. Either it is her body/her decision and no child support if he doesn't want it, or he gets a legal say in any abortion. I cannot believe people defend the current laws. Illogical and absurd.

[Scout]

180. what's ABSURD is your belief

that it's OK for a man to FORCE a woman to remain pregnant and give birth against her will.

very telling your use of HIS child, repeatedly ... HIS child.

there is no way to make this "logical" ... there just isn't ... you may as well just give it up.

So what laws do you propose that make it logical and not absurd, that don't force women to give up control of their bodies, hmmmmmmmm? Remember, women are people, not livestock, even once they're pregnant.

[adigal]

182. And it's absurd to,force a man who doesn't want a child to have to pay

Hey, it's her body. Her choice. He gets no say. Right?

[Scout]

194. then he should be more careful where he leaves his sperm.

he gets no say in forcing abortion or childbirth, correct. but that does relieve him of the responsibility for supporting the child he created. It's 50% his DNA, right?

he created it, and he gets no decision after he created it as it is not INSIDE his body, see?

have you answered my question yet?? oh wondrous educator with years of experience in life, what law would you change to make this situation logical, without of course violating the human rights of a woman?

[jeff47]

239. The man made his decision when his sperm left his body.

If a man doesn't want to risk paying child support, he has to not put his sperm in a woman.

[BlueCaliDem]

52. IMHO, since you and she are married, this is something you both need to discuss

together with mutual respect and open understanding - preferably over a nice dinner.

I know many people here will claim that your wife has the sole right to decide something as important and life-altering as having children, but in a marriage - a contract between two parties of equal standing (my belief) - this is something the two of you need to discuss, with all due respect, until you come to a mutual and agreeable solution for both parties.

But I don't agree that a man "has a right" to tell his wife to do anything, just as I believe a wife doesn't have a right to tell her husband what to do. That would upset the balance in a co-equal relationship, making one feel inferior to the other, and that's a recipe for disaster.

[Arkana]

53. You don't. You're not having the baby.

I say that as a straight male who wants to have a family himself one day. If your wife is carrying a pregnancy, it is entirely her decision. You are certainly allowed to try and present your argument, but she has the last word. Her body, her rules.

[1awake]

54. The man has the same right as the woman

To say no to having a child. Each also has the same right to find someone new who shares their desire for having, or not having children. A man can't force a woman into having a child the same way a woman can't force a man. One partner may bend to meet their partners wishes/desires/needs, but that is a choice they do not have to make.

If you are 11 years older and I assume you are feeling the "clock"... I suggest you first think long and hard about what you can and can not live without. If you decide you must have children, than approach your spouse/partner and be honest. Nobody wants to waste time on a sinking ship.

Good Luck... and there's nothing wrong with your question or how you might be feeling, but a woman's body is her own... as is yours. Make good choices.

[ananda]

55. It all depends on whether you hold to complete human rights.

And that would mean that each person owns their own body.

[snooper2]

56. Wait five years and adopt a five year old

problem solved

[Mira]

57. Skimming the responses there is one thing missing IMO

first of all, I am against anyone even considering having the right to order a woman to bear and birth a child, that is not what's missing in the discussion. It seems that universally the opinion is that it is the woman's body, and therefore it is her decision.

What's missing is that it is also the woman's LIFE - 18 years of it minimum - and the whole rest of it in reality, as a rule one never stops being a mother.
When I had my son within my marriage a long time ago he was a wanted child conceived and received with love.

When I got divorced I had him to raise from age on. There were bitter fights over child support, and the father dropped out except for a few annual phone calls to his son, that lasted a few minutes each time. I never once even had a discussion with my son's father about anything involving his welfare or schooling.

Women have more to think about and more to commit to than just 9 months of gestation and a birth.
That's my point.

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. Is that not true for the dad as well?

Setting aside the medical issue which we all seem to agree with, fathers don't have a choice on whether to be a parent.

[Mira]

68. Right with the huge exception that they

more often walk away from the responsibilities than mothers, and abandon a choice they participated in.
Women must consider this when they decide to bring a child into this world. I never ever thought that abandonment of my child by his father would become an issue after divorce.

And in these times of so many children being born to unwed parents, that consideration is a huge one for women.
I in essence say if a woman is not prepared/ready/able to raise a child by herself she should think very hard and long about having one.

It's very very tough.

[pipi_k]

65. It's not just

18 years...

Your entire life changes forever

My kids are 41 and 43.


Granted, they're raised and on their own now, but a parent never stops being a parent no matter how old the kids get.

Much of my stress comes from worrying about them...the decisions they make...how they're doing financially, or health-wise (my poor son has an autoimmune disorder that often makes his life hell).

It's a fine line to walk, knowing that I can't get overly involved in their lives (which I don't) but when they end up telling me things, I often have sleepless nights over it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. Personally, I don't think that abortion is about parenting.

It's about medicine.

As such, it's her body and her medical choice.

The choice of becoming a parent is a different one, and suffice to say a male contraceptive is long overdue.

[rug]

60. It's her choice to become pregnant or not. It's your choice to stay or not.

These decisions are about shared lives.

[Lizzie Poppet]

61. It's entirely her call. However...

The decision for her to have a child is, ultimately, hers and hers alone. However, if she is adamant about this and her husband's desire to become a father is strong enough to become a greater priority than remaining married to her, then the divorce should be "no fault." That is to say, w/o alimony (although any community property laws would still apply).

[kcr]

67. That should not factor into it

Don't you think that should be something that's discussed before they get married? At any rate, factoring the type of divorce on such a decision makes it coercive. How is basing whether one wants to divorce their spouse based on this any different than any other aspect of the relationship they can't reconcile over?

[Lizzie Poppet]

70. Well,yeah, it _should_ be discussed in advance.

However, people enter into marriage w/o "due diligence" all the time. It often ends in tears...but it doesn't seem to stop people. =/

[kcr]

71. Human beings are funny that way

But they both entered into it without discussing it. One shouldn't then be able to use the ability to potentially garner more favorable divorce terms to coerce the other to do what they want.

[cinnabonbon]

62. As long as one body

has to be put through a ton of risks in other to carry that baby, I would say her concerns would have to be listened to most. It's dangerous to carry a child. It's not something you do for fun. But obviously, they should discuss this together honestly and as respectfully as they can with each other. They are trying to build a future together, so both needs to be listened to so that they can both be happy. I mean, the best way to come to an agreement would be to ask the woman why she doesn't want children. Is it because she's scared of pregnancy? Does she doubt that them as a couple can provide for the baby's needs? If it is a problem with a solution, then working towards reaching that solution might make her want to have children after all! And they will both be happy about it, because they worked together to reach that goal.

[msanthrope]

63. If your wife is saying "not now, soon," then I would suggest that you talk to her about

what she wants to do during the "soon." Lots of women don't want to have children until certain material needs are met, or until certain family or other emotional issues are dealt with. Heck--I wanted to wait until a particular bit of travel had taken place, and I wanted a house bought and painted. Find out what her 'soon' means--and this might be a way for you to fulfill some of her needs and desires, and a way to calm anxieties.

Also...in many cultures, the first child for a woman signals the end of her 'girlhood,' and the attendant freedoms. That's a lot to give up. If she's only 25--that's still pretty young!

[pipi_k]

64. IMO, if one party

wants a child and the other one doesn't, it's something that needs to be discussed between the two of them.

If neither one can change his/her mind...that is, if the one who doesn't want a child will possibly never want one...and the one who does want one can't live the rest of his/her life being childless, then there's a big problem.

Counselling, first.

If that doesn't work, then they should end the marriage/relationship so each can find someone with similar feelings on the subject.


PS...This is why it's important, at the very beginning of a serious relationship to get the major issues on the table. People foolishly think "Because we're in LOOOOOVVVVE!!!" will take care of everything, but it doesn't always work out that way.

IMO, "Because we're in LOOOOOVVVE!!!" is one of the stupidest reasons to get married.

[Orrex]

69. Maybe married couples could abduct and forcibly impregnate breeding-age women.

In short, if the man wants a child and his intended pregnancy-target doesn't, then he's out of luck.

[Beringia]

72. You said divorce is out of the question

that is too bad. I would think with such strict cultural norms, you should have discussed it before you got married. I think also with regard to "the man has no right to order her to have an abortion", a woman should also discuss this with the man before she gets pregnant, (do you want a child).

[Orrex]

74. That assumes that he knew his plans re: children prior to marriage

That's an unfair burden to place upon either party.

[fadedrose]

73. A man should make his wish known BEFORE he sleeps with a woman

or marries her. She may figure that she was being used to fulfill his life's dream to have a child, and all she wanted was perhaps her job and companionship.

If no such agreement has been made..it's her body and her life that will change. If she doesn't love you and doesn't want anything more than what she bargained for, she may not take to having a baby very lightly...

The key here is "family planning." Before the fact, not after.

If she goes through with having it in spite of not wanting it, consider it a great favor if she's that willing to make "you" happy. After she has it, like most woman, she will love it anyway, but there's no guarantee that she will be comfortable with being a "surrogate" mother.

Good luck no matter which way it goes. What you need to do is convince her that you love her regardless of whether or not she has the child, not if she has it. A lot of fancy talking needed here, and you could find out a lot about Yourself in doing it.

[Ikonoklast]

86. I was in the reverse of the OP's situation.

A few years after my divorce, I met a woman that was considerably younger than I who I had met through her involvement in one of my daughter's athletic teams.

She was smart, had a good job with a private investment firm, was very physically active, and loved kids.

When we first got serious about a relationship, I told her up front that I didn't want to be a father again, as I already was a single father with sole custody of three minor children, and didn't care to be the guy who was seventy years old with a child in high school.

She initially agreed with me and we spent three great years together, but as time went on and her biological clock was ticking I was given the choice to father another child with her, or we were heading to a serious relationship problem.

I reluctantly left her soon after. I felt like a shit for doing so, we were really good together, I loved her and she me, but I just wasn't ready to be a father again at my age.

I found out a couple of years later that she had found a partner much closer to her age, got married and they had a baby girl.

I was happy for them.

[Dorian Gray]

99. You did the right

and unselfish thing, even though I'm sure it was painful for you both.

[Ikonoklast]

100. It sucked, real hard. I'm still not certain I did the right thing.

I felt like a real jerk for a long time.

[Vashta Nerada]

78. Divorce your wife and get a woman who wants to have children.

That's your only option.

That is something that should have been discussed before you got married.

[cynatnite]

119. Wow, that was easy to say, wasn't it?

Why didn't you just tell him to go to Walmart and make his pick?'

Sometimes things change after marriage. Life can throw some loops. They may have had preconceived ideas and it changed later.

Telling someone that if they don't like the choice their wife is making at that moment, they should divorce them is pretty short-sighted and overly simplistic for something as complicated as a relationship in a marriage.

Very few in this thread have recognized that the OP stated she is not wanting children AT THIS TIME. Which means she will want them later.

Even fewer have suggested to keep the dialogue about this subject going. Things change. Feelings change.

The both of them could find a way to get what they want and be happy with each other without having to toss out a marriage as if it's yesterday's garbage because of this.

[Vashta Nerada]

120. So it's just better for him to resent her later?

No.

The decision to have kids is a big deal. Why should he have to be unhappy because she *may* want kids later? There's a difference between "may" and "definitely". One is a possibility while the other is a certainty.

[cynatnite]

121. It is a big deal, but to arbitrarily toss out a marriage...

over something that's as complicated as this isn't the way to go.

Relationships are about give and take. If he got to the point where he wants children and she was absolutely against the idea after a protracted amount of discussion, then I could see where divorce might be his only option.

From what the OP has said, it's not. He's admitted to being much older and that she wants to wait. Everything in that post indicates to me that this has been an ongoing discussion. Nowhere has he indicated that he is willing to dump the marriage.

Not only that, if she's pressured into having children before she's ready, she may be the one doing the resenting.

One more thing. I do agree that this was something they probably should have discussed at length before getting married. Hindsight is 20/20, too.

I also think this should be an ongoing discussion over time. Both her and his feelings may change and they may just find a way to compromise in a way they're both happy with.

[uppityperson]

205. "only option"? They can wait, see if minds are changed later. He can be involved with other children

not having bio-kids. There are plenty of people who do that.

"only option" is to get divorced. Good grief.

[Vashta Nerada]

206. Yeah, live a life of "maybe".

Make him wait months or years or never.

Great advice.

[uppityperson]

208. Since the OP said he is fine doing that, yes, it is great advice. Glad you agree.

[Vashta Nerada]

214. Yes, it's always nice to have a spouse you absolutely resent.

Sounds like a great marriage.

That sounds like a marriage I want to have. My wife doesn't want kids, but I do, but I'll hold out on the maybe and resent her for years. That's a great, healthy marriage.

[uppityperson]

215. Uh huh. He said he is fine waiting. So nice of you to be so concerned for others. Bless your little

heart.

[Vashta Nerada]

217. Yeah, then what happens 5, 10, 20 years down the road?

And he still has no kids?

This is something they should have really talked about before they were married.

[uppityperson]

219. And he has you to tell him whether to be happy and content. How sweet for you to take that on.

Not many people would be willing to take the task of telling strangers what they should and should not do or feel.

[Vashta Nerada]

225. Look, if people don't actually want to hear our opinions,

then they shouldn't be going online and asking us for them.

[uppityperson]

228. "I'm curious how much fathers and husbands matter in family planning"=advise him to get a divorce?

Uh huh. Clear as a bell you are.

[Vashta Nerada]

235. That wasn't his question.

He made it clear as day:

But my question is simple. If a woman wants the child and the man doesn't, the man has no right to order her to have an abortion. IF the roles are reversed, how much say does a man, husband and father have if he wants a child and the mother doesn't?

bold mine

Wife doesn't want a kid, he does. My answer seems pretty good compared to the unicorns and fairy and rainbow stuff everyone else posted.

[uppityperson]

243. "get a divorce" doesn'tanswer the question of "how much say does a man...have" at all. Nope.

The answer to "how much say..." is "a lot", "a little", "none", etc. Not "get a divorce.

[Vashta Nerada]

248. If he's not getting what he wants in the marriage, then yes, it's a great answer.

And since he's not, well...

[uppityperson]

249. And since he says he is fine with waiting, well, you MUST know best, after all! Right?

[Ikonoklast]

80. Hypothetical question.

Are you willing to comply if your spouse orders you to have a vasectomy?

[fadedrose]

82. Many have and had regret from both of the couple ....

[WinkyDink]

83. Then I guess the man better find a way to get pregnant and give birth.

[Common Sense Party]

84. You have to think about the child. If a woman is the least bit hesitant or reluctant

to become a mother, she should not do so, she should not be forced or pressured or cajoled into having a child.

That child deserves to be born into an environment where it will be loved unconditionally. It should not be resented. (And that's true if the father is not thrilled about the child either.)

[mainer]

85. Adding onto the discussion: as a grandparent, I'd mourn an aborted grandchild.

Yes, I agree it's the woman's decision as it's her body. But I do sympathize with the father who deeply wants an unborn child. I'm another step away from that, as a potential grandparent, yet I know how wrenching it would be to know that an unborn grandchild will never know life.

This is a complicated, emotional topic. You have a right to your feelings. Just as your wife has a right to hers. Either way, someone is going to suffer.

[WinkyDink]

126. Are most abortions announced to one's in-laws?

[mainer]

286. No, but if I discovered later that I'd lost a grandchild to abortion

I would be grieving. That is all.

[liberal_at_heart]

181. I had an abortion when I was 16. It hurt my father deeply, but it was what was best for me

given the circumstances. Life is not always easy or free from pain. Life is complicated and messy. Later, I fell in love, got married and had two children. My father has the two grandchildren from me and one from one of my brothers. He's a happy man.

[mainer]

87. Few of the responses take into account the deep and aching emotions

It's easy to coldly say, "not your body so back off." Or: "man, just divorce her".

As a mother and a grandmother, I can't imagine the pain of losing an unborn child or grandchild to an abortion. As supportive as I am of abortion rights, I feel the grief of the father who wants and loves that lost child. I may get harangued for this by feminists, but we're not just talking about shapeless masses of tissue. The decision to abort should be made with thought and deep reflection.

Luckily, you have a wife who is not opposed to being a mother; she just wants time. So this is not a closed door. I wish you both the best, and hope she'll come to agree with you. Being a parent is a tough job, but I have never, not one nanosecond of my life, ever regretted it.

[kcr]

116. It's not that they aren't taking it into account

They're simply stating the the facts. The OP has already laid out the situation so those considerations have already been taken into account. The reality is that women are the ones with the uterus. They shouldn't lose autonomy over their own bodies simply for that fact. He has to take that reality into account as well. It can't be ignored.

[TBF]

198. "the decision to abort should be made with thought and deep reflection"

What makes you think it wouldn't be?

[mainer]

287. When I was in medical school, I assisted at abortions

And we had one woman who was on her fourth abortion. She didn't bother with birth control, and this was her method. So no, not all abortions are made with deep reflection.

[TBF]

289. One example does not a trend make ...

nt

[mainer]

300. One example is enough to make my point.

You implied it ALWAYS is deeply thought out. I just said, not always. All it takes is one example to negate the word "always".

[TBF]

301. I didn't use the word "always" -

you made that up in your head to justify some "point" you felt the need to try to make. Fail.

[mainer]

302. You said: "what makes you think it WOULDN'T be thought out?"

And the example I cited gave me reason to say it might not be deeply thought out. That is all.

[bettyellen]

314. No... she very obviously did NOT want a baby for many years, and knew it.

it was birth control she did not "think out", not whether to have a baby.

[jeff47]

88. The man can make the call as soon as he gestates the fetus.

Biology means women get veto power on this subject. Is it fair? Nope. But there's tons of things in biology that are not fair.

ETA: You should discuss what it is she is waiting for. Specifically. Don't treat it like a checklist, but you'll get a better understanding of why she wants to wait, which may make it easier for you to wait.

[Arugula Latte]

94. It always seemed like a crazy system to me.

Starting at the age of 12 or so we get to endure a monthly nuisance and it doesn't end for, oh, 40 years or so. I reproduced in two of those years. The rest seems like a waste -- and unfair. Thanks a lot, Mother Nature!

[1000words]

89. I think we all know how this thread will go ...

[Dorian Gray]

93. I think in an ideal situation

people who love each other and plan a life together will discuss and come to some sort of agreement, even if it's a compromise of sorts.

In a non-ideal situation, i think it's up to the woman. It sucks, especially if a man is excited for a child. But she's the one who would have to carry the child, birth the child, feed the child, and be primary caretaker to the child.

[LiberalEsto]

97. The main reason I divorced my first husband

was that after 6 years of marriage, just as we were approaching age 30, he suddenly decided he wasn't ready to be a father.

After thinking it over, and knowing that the marriage wasn't a good one, I decided to split and look for someone else who WAS ready to start a family. That was 32 years ago and we have two grown daughters.

The ex then started seeing a woman who deliberately let herself get pregnant in order to trap him into a marriage.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

101. the use of another's body is not something we have rights over

i can't use your body to fulfill my dreams. it's really as simple as that.

just like i don't believe a woman can demand your semen or your kidney.

[LittleBlue]

102. It isn't very difficult to convince a woman to have a child

Most women want to have children in their lifetimes. The question is timing, and the issue is usually money, ie the ability to provide a comfortable home for the baby.

If your girlfriend/wife gets pregnant, usually the offer of marriage and the pledge to financially support her will be enough to convince her to keep the baby. She probably wants to anyway, but it's fear of having a baby on her own with no help that drives her to abortion. Having a reliable source of income and convincing her you'll be there is a big part of it.

You don't have a right as a father to order her one way or another, it is ultimately her body and her decision. Being the father you can, however, influence the outcome to a great extent. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to convince your spouse or girlfriend to have a baby; she'll have plenty of friends and family telling her what they think she should do, you might as well be honest with her. If you want to have a baby and she doesn't, maybe your aims in life are different and you're wasting time on a relationship that doomed. Best to be honest and upfront.

My honest question to you is, why do you think she isn't ready to have a child? Is it that she wants to avoid responsibility for a child until she's older? Or is it that she is uncertain of the financial future of your family? I guess my first step, were I in your shoes, would be to identify her reason for reluctance and find some way to assuage her uncertainties, whatever they are.

[WinkyDink]

131. I am 64 and deliberately childless, and none of your reasoning applies to me.

[LittleBlue]

132. Did I say that my reasoning applied to you? nt

[Scout]

134. defensive much? n/t

[LittleBlue]

137. You've replied twice and call me defensive

Projecting much?

I put "most" in the first sentence for a reason. Hopefully that lets people understand I'm not talking about everyone.

[Scout]

138. :shrug: i've got nothing to be defensive about

so not sure what point you think you are making.

i replied ONCE to you, and once to someone else ... 2 posts in one thread makes me defensive and projecting??

[LittleBlue]

142. You said you were irked by my reply

and then called me defensive in your irritation. You don't need to defend your decision not to have kids, I wasn't talking about you.

[Scout]

133. same here

just 10 years younger.

i just never wanted to be pregnant and have a child. just did not ever appeal to me ... finances or not, partner or not.

and i can't put my finger on it, but the whole tone of that post (that you replied to) just irked me.

[Texasgal]

210. Most women?

I deliberately decided against children because I believed I would not be a good mother. It had nothing to do with finances or relationship choices. I am a happily married woman of 15 years.

I know your comment does not apply to "me" specifically but "most" women is not a factual statement. Alot would be a better term.

[MADem]

103. The "vote"--if you will--is always Two to One in favor of the woman.

The male provides the sperm, but the woman provides both the egg and the "willing" (or otherwise) womb.

If the woman doesn't want her uterus occupied for nine months, and then go through the physical challenges of giving birth, that's her business. She owns the real estate and the means of production--the male does not.

[LanternWaste]

105. For my part, none. Although we can discuss it, the ultimate decision will always be hers and hers al

"how much say does a man, husband and father have if he wants a child and the mother doesn't? "

For my part, none. Although we can discuss it, the ultimate decision will always be hers and hers alone.

[Xyzse]

112. It seems like others have mentioned, paragraph 3 is the heart of the OP.

If the man wants a child and the mother doesn't, the man has no say in this matter at all.

When the woman is ready, it is her choice. I understand the desire to be a father, but it is the woman's choice in the end as it is her body and it is her who would carry a child to term.

In regards to the role of the fathers and husbands in family planning, their role is to be supportive.

[lumberjack_jeff]

114. Husbands don't matter in her decision to get pregnant and give birth.

But she's not the only one with choices of their own.

Her reasons for not having children are legitimate for her, starting with taking what she says at face value: she's not yet ready for pregnancy and/or being a parent.
Unfortunately, there are some possible "not face value" reasons that you should consider;
1) she doesn't want children... with you.
2) she doesn't want children, ever.

Only you are in a position to evaluate the possibility that those are the actual reasons, and only you are in a position to decide what to do in that case.

[ReasonableToo]

115. hopefully you've discussed the reasons that she's not ready to be a mother

some reasons have a "work around"

If a woman is freaked out about pregnancy there's always adoption. If she doesn't want to put children above career then ask yourself if you're ready to be "Mr. Mom"

As the discussions continue, finding opportunities to be around kids and babies might give her new experiences to consider. Just be careful that it doesn't come off as force-feeding you're opinions.

A husband and wife should have 50/50 influence on the family planning discussion but it's the woman's body so she has veto power on most decisions. An earlier post mentioned a husband getting a vasectomy - that's his veto power. (which obviously doesn't apply to OP)

Here's hoping that you both find a happy resolution.

[onpatrol98]

117. Good luck with such a tough issue...

My husband is almost 10 years older than I am. And, he was definitely ready to be a father before I was ready to become a mother. But, eventually, I was ready. We did have some tough moments about it. He couldn't put himself in my shoes...and I couldn't really put myself in his. Now, that I'm older I see it better. He was concerned that he would be too old to do the things a father wants to do with a young child. Now, that I'm older (LOL), that makes perfectly good sense to me. But, at the time, I felt like I had plenty of time and that he was rushing me. He was never argumentative about it. But, just knowing he was ready and I was not created tension.

I'm glad you're having this discussion with your wife. Honesty is key. Is she saying she doesn't ever want to be a mother...or simply that she's not ready. If she's not ready, then there's nothing more you can do but wait...but, I think you do have the right to ask her what her concerns are. For instance, if you work a lot, and a lot of the responsibility will be on her and her alone, perhaps she's anticipating problems. And, maybe right now, all she sees are problems and no solutions.

Although many fathers are great and active dads...I think many women still feel, the bulk of the responsibility for being a parent rests with us. While, some men, not all...still maintain quite a bit of freedom. She also has a right to know why this is so important to you, right now. And, how do the expectations of your extended families play into all of this?

My husband assured me, he was a hands on dad. He is. My own father was not. And, I brought a lot of that baggage with me, whenever we discussed having a family. The children were my mother's problem. My father was in the home and an absent father at the same time. Non committal and generally uninterested. You can try to alleviate any fears and concerns she may have. But, be honest. If she's not ready, at least she's being honest with you. I think that is to be commended. Otherwise, perhaps your children would suffer and she would be unhappy. That would make you unhappy as well. And, I know that's not what you want. But, if you continue talking, perhaps eventually you'll be at the same place. And, you'll all be happier for it.

Good Luck!!!

[cynatnite]

118. They matter as much as the relationship allows...

It all depends on the relationship with your loved one. If she doesn't want a child, you can't force it on her.

There is no getting around the fact that since it is her body, the decision is ultimately hers in the end. You can want her to have a baby to your heart's content, but if she does not want to be pregnant at this point in time, there is little you can do about it except be patient and keep an open dialogue about the subject.

Husband and I have been married nearly 25 years. We have three children. We always discussed family planning and he was more than happy to support the decisions I made regarding my reproductive health.

[defacto7]

129. The answer, hands down....

It will always be the woman's final decision, period. It's her pain, her body and her life in the balance... and her final decision. Those issues infinitely outweigh any mans wants, desires, wishes, hopes, age, health, or mental state. There's no argument.

I am a male, married and have children.

Be well.

[Deep13]

130. There will never be equal control over reproductive matters...

...because the burden falls exclusively on women. So, they get to decide everything except that if a woman wants to be pregnant a man may withhold the sperm to avoid it. Simply put, you may not rape your wife to force her to become pregnant.

Of course, it is still possible for you to become a father, but it would have to be with a different, willing woman, and that would likely wreck your marriage.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

135. Sounds more personal than philosophical.

You had the right to the discussion, it just didn't go the way you would have liked.

So, in your case the question you asked about "how much say does a man, a husband and father have if he wants a child and the mother doesn't?" is moot. Again, you did have the right to have your say.

[Motown_Johnny]

136. none. try adopting if you want a child

Nobody has any right to tell someone else what he or she must do with their own bodies

[liberal_at_heart]

147. After my second child, I just knew I couldn't handle anymore. I didn't realize how hard it would be

for me. I had severe fatigue and depression. My husband loves babies. He would have been happy with two or three more I'm sure. But he was very supportive when I told him two was it for me. Both partners should listen to the other and take the other's feelings seriously, but if one doesn't want a child, then a child should not be brought into that situation. This is bigger than just who wants what. It's about what is going to happen to that child when it comes into the world. Children should never be born into a situation where they are not 100% wanted. They can feel it and it can have a major effect on that child.

[Taitertots]

155. There is no practical way to make that work

It is effectively saying that a man can coerce a women to carry a fetus to birth.

The only real practical solution is not ejaculating inside of women that don't want to be mothers.

[Ohio Joe]

163. "Again, I am not one of these men's movement assholes" - Yet you want control over anothers body?

What do you call someone who wants total control of women?

[Nanjing to Seoul]

213. Someone not me, because if you read. . .I AM SUPPORTING HER DECISION

Christ, has reading comprehension gotten so damn bad in America?

[Ohio Joe]

218. oh... You just wanted to see if others here supported MRA bullshit...

What a strange way of bringing it up.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

220. No, it was a question. I am so glad I left the States seven years ago.

The snark, cynicism and arrogant hubris of the modern America got to me.

Please go away. All you have done is attack me. Please just leave this thread and bother someone else.

Go act aloof, haughty and superior on someone else.

[Ohio Joe]

221. Yeah... An interesting question...

Is it ok for you to control your wifes body... You just wanted to see if anyone would support you doing it... Pretty fucked up.

[OwnedByCats]

226. Hey, he said he supports his

wife's decision, no need to be so combative here. Nothing he said indicates he wants to control her body.

Good grief

[Ohio Joe]

231. Non-sense. The OP presented MRA bullshit as though it were a point worthy of debate

It's not.

Goo grief indeed

[OwnedByCats]

251. Nonsense back at you!

The guy has said nothing about wanting to force his wife into anything. You're reading into crap that's not even there!

[Ohio Joe]

255. Can you not read?

"I have a philosophical idea to pose to all of you. I hope it's debated honestly and respectfully"

OK... whats he want to "debate"?

"But my question is simple. If a woman wants the child and the man doesn't, the man has no right to order her to have an abortion. IF the roles are reversed, how much say does a man, husband and father have if he wants a child and the mother doesn't?"

This is what is up for "debate"... Does a man have the right to control a woman.

It's MRA bullshit... It is neither honest nor respectful and certainly not worthy of debate.

You go ahead and support it though

[OwnedByCats]

268. You obviously haven't read my responses in this thread

about whether a man has that right if you think I support the dumb ass idea that the man gets to choose. At the end of the day, I said it's down to the woman. That doesn't mean I think a man shouldn't express his feelings. For some women, the willingness or unwillingness makes a difference in their decision. For other women, it makes no difference. Depends totally on the woman.

He posed a question. Instead of having a calm debate, everybody has to jump to conclusions on what his intentions are, and even after he said he supported her, he's willing to wait, even after stating he doesn't share what maybe many men in China believe on the subject, you all still jump down his throat, as if you can't read! You can express an opinion objectively to him without being combative like that and not throwing accusations around. There has been no need for it.

[Ohio Joe]

270. So... You think ownership of another person is some philosophical idea with merit

Really?

Then I think I know what side of the debate you really come down on.

[OwnedByCats]

324. I didn't take it as is it ok

to have ownership over one's body. He did say that many men in China may have this attitude, but that he doesn't share it. I took it as a question, does the man have any say? I guess what I mean by say is an expression of their feelings on the matter but the ultimate answer is that the very last decision is with the woman. Whether it's about starting a family, whether it comes down to an actual pregnancy - terminating it or not. It is down to the woman ultimately. I just think there is nothing wrong with both parties discussing it first. Man can give input, whether he supports it or not, the woman must be the deciding factor here. Others take his question to mean "is it ok to force a woman to have a child?", which of course answer is no, but that's not how I took it.

I happen to be a woman so of course I would think it's the woman's decision, why would you presume otherwise? You and I took the debate differently. I was just trying to point out that he doesn't seem to think the way you think he does - that is all. You then have to come down on me as though I also believe ownership is right and you couldn't be more dead wrong.

It just comes down to how we both perceive the question, you took it differently. That's fine, but you shouldn't assume what others believe. I guess any and all discussions on whether men have any input on this subject should be banned because even though we explore deeper, not to mean the man has the final say, but should a man's feelings be taken into consideration by the woman? Depends on the woman and her circumstances, depends on the relationship and the man.

How many times have I heard men demand a woman should have an abortion when she doesn't want to? Many times! Is it still up to her? Hell yes, but there have been women who have done it anyway to please the man, which is just as bad as forcing her to have the baby. Comes down to controlling men who obviously need to learn they should not be allowed to call the shots. I don't think the OP is quite in that category, you do. Just agree to disagree.

[Ohio Joe]

326. Yet... You think it is a topic worthy of debate?

It has some type of merit? I should engage such non-sense?

Fuck that and fuck anyone that thinks it is a topic worthy of debate.

[OwnedByCats]

331. For God's sake

CONTROL - not worthy of debate

Taking the man's feelings into consideration - you can debate that but I think it depends on .... the woman, AGAIN.

It's the WOMAN's choice, whether she takes his feelings into consideration, is her prerogative only. You know, in a situation where the woman wants to have the child, but doesn't want to be a single mom, but man says he would love to do this with her and that sways her decision - a situation like that. If it's a case of her not wanting the child at all, her choice, who cares what the man says?

In whether to start a family, well she should only if and when she's ready. Still down to her and the man must live with it if he wants to be a good man.

So, give me a break - since I said I took the question differently, as I didn't take it to mean CONTROL, that should be enough for you to realize we aren't seeing this in the same light because you aren't talking about consideration of feelings, you're talking about CONTROL!! I am NOT!!!

I freaking apologize for taking it differently than you!! Ok now?? Go pick on someone who actually believes it's ok to order a woman around, make her have babies, make her do this or that because with me, you're barking up the wrong tree!!!

[Ohio Joe]

333. The question is simple... And very hard to misunderstand. I'll put it here again

"But my question is simple. If a woman wants the child and the man doesn't, the man has no right to order her to have an abortion. IF the roles are reversed, how much say does a man, husband and father have if he wants a child and the mother doesn't?"

Go ahead and read it again... As the OP says, the question is very simple...

How much say does the father have if he wants a child and the mother does not?

This is not about 'starting a family'... The woman is already pregnant and the OP wants to know, not 'IF' the father should have a say but rather 'HOW MUCH'...

You really misunderstanding this still?

You still think it is something worthy of debate?

It's MRA bullshit plain and simple. It's about a man wanting to force a woman to give birth regardless if she wants to or not.

[OwnedByCats]

339. I just said if I misunderstood his intent

that's my bad. His further posts seemed to point to a different attitude and my only crime here is giving him the benefit of the doubt. Yet I support all that MRA bullshit?? No, I took it differently based on his further responses, not just the wording of his original OP.

Again, I perhaps took it differently than it was meant - I already clarified that if he means control, it's not a debate. Consideration, though technically should not be a debate, just discussion because even then, it's her choice anyway.

So no debate either way! Are we done??

[kcr]

275. No need for it? I think the OP got exactly what he was after.

A philosophical question about controlling another pesons's body? Really? Why should anyone expect a calm debate when they ask a question like that? Why not ask some other equally ridiculous questions while we're at it and see what happens? "If you really want to have sex and no one is interested, is it okay to make someone have sex with you? I support the right for people to decide what to do with their bodies, of course, just a philosophical question, keep it civil, please! Calm, rational debate only"

[OwnedByCats]

327. I did not take it as a question about control

More about should a man's feelings be taken into consideration, which I think comes down to the woman -AGAIN in that situation too. If you want to talk about control, of course it's not ok. I just didn't get the impression he was asking if control was ok, even after he denied such. I honestly didn't think he was of that ilk. You disagree - that's fine.

[kcr]

328. If he wanted to ask how much should a man's feelings be taken into consideration

Then that's what he should have asked. But he didn't. He asked how much say he should have. That is about control. If you want to read one thing and interpret it as another, that's your choice I guess

[OwnedByCats]

335. Perhaps

but since he clarified his position in further posts, it didn't sound the same as wanting control.

If it's about control, it's clearly wrong. If it's about consideration, depends on the situation, but still ultimately is up to her.

We don't disagree on the premise, we just disagree on what we think the OP means. Only he really knows, maybe he should have worded it differently. Maybe he is back peddling because he really meant control. I do not know. I'm just going by his further clarifications. I could be wrong by giving him the benefit of the doubt, it still doesn't change my position that it's the woman's choice only at decision time.

[kcr]

340. For one thing, I don't' see where he clarified it

For another, it's pretty clear that it's about control. I think that's why he tries to pass it off as "just a philosophical question" Look at how he phrases it:

"But my question is simple. If a woman wants the child and the man doesn't, the man has no right to order her to have an abortion. IF the roles are reversed, how much say does a man, husband and father have if he wants a child and the mother doesn't?"

You can't force an abortion. Reverse the roles. He's asking how much can a man force a pregnancy.

[bettyellen]

292. Nonsense. There is no room for debate this "philosophical idea" of controlling women's reproduction

None. It is MRA style flame bait, and not worthy of discussion here.

[OwnedByCats]

325. Again

I took the question to mean something else entirely, not "is it ok to have ownership over one's body?" as I just explained.

You take it differently, fine. I just didn't think he was trying to pose that question. He clarified his position, though he's not believed.

If I thought I was going to be accused of MRA thinking, I wouldn't have bothered because being a woman I do believe it's her choice - ALWAYS

[OwnedByCats]

229. I understand what you mean

No chance for civil debate around here with the more highly strung members.

I understand what you were saying and you wanted some productive debate aside from accusations and foul language. Unfortunately that is the MO of some here.

They missed the part where you said you were supporting her choice, I see. That's also part of the MO, reading comprehension goes to crap.

[bettyellen]

347. did you miss the part where he said he "almost completely" agrees, LOL? there is no almost pregnant

also, the question he asked was if you switch roles- does someone have the right to control the other one.
so, of course, the answer was no. that he didn't like hearing this and felt attacked by many many polite people is his own issue.

[OwnedByCats]

352. Well I really hope he doesn't think that way

but without knowing him and his heart, it's hard to know for sure - except for the "almost" completely agrees part, which I agree is suspect at best.

[bettyellen]

353. he put a persons right for control of their own body up for debate- and is angry that he was

told that there was no debate to be had here. if he wanted support, he could have found it - among some people on the opposite end of the political spectrum.

[kcr]

223. Bingo

That is exactly what I think the OP is about, too.

[Ohio Joe]

237. "I hope it's debated honestly and respectfully"

That is how the OP wants to talk about controlling another human... WTF?

[kcr]

238. Of course.

Respectful, honest debate about controlling other people's bodies. But he respects his wife's decision. Obviously.

[adigal]

183. Sorry, this got a bit hijacked and less than civil

Because someone insisted on cursing at people.

[PeaceNikki]

186. someone cursed???!!!? on the INTERNET??? be still my heart.

What the fuck has the world come to??

[Sheldon Cooper]

193. lol

[Scout]

196. hmmmmm, seems to me you've been somewhat less than civil yourself

as you have a hidden post here as well LOL

[MadrasT]

211. No, it got hikacked by a forced birther

insisting that men have a right to deicde whether a woman produces a child.

Complete nonsense.

[uppityperson]

207. It isn't "fair" or equal, pregnancy, childbearing, child raising.

As far as child support dinging men who didn't want a child, it is being financially supportive of the child. And women are also financially responsible even if they do not have custody.

As far as making a woman be pregnant who doesn't wish to, nope. No one has a right to do that.

As far as making a woman have an abortion who doesn't wish to, nope. No one has a right to do that.

Fathers and husbands and male partners and males matter in family planning, but the ultimate decision is up to the woman as she is the one risking her life and health.

A cousin so wanted kids, his wife didn't. Turned out she did not want to risk her life and health so they adopted.

A friend did not want kids, was pregnant, the father got custody and she pays child support, being financially responsible for her child.

Life isn't fair, or equal as far as reproduction.

[WillyT]

209. One Would Think That This Would Be Discussed BEFORE Marraige...

Either way, until you can carry to term... you're input should be considered, hopefully lovingly, but in the end... you do not have a vote.

Sorry.

[Xithras]

216. When medical science figures out a way to extract a fetus without harming the mother, we get a voice

Until then, the choice is entirely on the mother.

If a man wants to have a child, he should find a woman who is willing to have that child with him. If the woman wants to abort and the man doesn't, then the man chose his mate poorly. His "choice" is to leave her and find another partner with goals more compatible with his own.

Bottom line: If you want a choice, it has to be made BEFORE the pregnancy occurs.

All bets are off if medical science figures out a way to remove fetuses without harming them or the mother, but that's a LONG way off.

[Aerows]

227. Honestly?

When you can carry the child yourself, have the health consequences having children can have and do it for 9 months, then go for it. Bear all the children you want!

[valerief]

233. Woman's body. Woman's choice. Period. nt

[Adrahil]

234. AS a a Dad myself, I get where you are coming from...

... but ultimately, you're not carrying the fetus. It's her body. But if my wife decided to abort a fetus I wanted (she'd NEVER do that, this is just a 'spose) we would be headed to divorce court toute suite.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

261. I understand that. Which is how I felt at the beginning. I just wanted to see if I wasn't alone.

But apparently, I sparked alot of venom for daring to ask.

[liberal_at_heart]

285. Everyone agreed that you had every right to divorce her if you wanted a kid, but daring to ask

if a man has any say in whether a woman has a baby or not is always going to spark venom because men don't have a say in whether a woman has a baby or not.

[DesertFlower]

241. did you discuss having children before you were married?

i had a son with my first husband. we divorced after 6 years. i knew i'd eventually re-marry, but hoped i would meet a man who had already had children or didn't want any. i was lucky. john had a daughter with his 1st wife and didn't want more.

we even discussed the possibility of my birth control failing and decided if i accidentally became pregnant i would have an abortion. fortunately that never happened.

[Hippo_Tron]

245. DesertFlower, can I ask you an un-related question...

How'd you know you'd re-marry? I'm not sure I'll ever find someone to marry he first time. I can't imagine coming out of a divorce knowing I'd eventually re-marry. How did you come out of a divorce with such a positive attitude like that?

[DesertFlower]

256. i guess you could call it a gut feeling.

my first husband was a POS. right after we separated i started to date and i found there were other men out there -- some really nice and some not so nice. my first husband was very controlling and did not appreciate me. one of the first men i dated took me to an extremely fancy restaurant on our first date. i had never been to a place like that. i remember saying to my mom the next day "i'm so happy i could dance on the roof".

i met my 2nd husband 3-1/2 years after separating from my 1st. we were together almost 41 years until he passed away 5/12 from an inoperable brain tumor. i miss him terribly. we were soul mates.

i hope you find the right one, but if you don't you can still find happiness. not everyone is meant to be married. my step daughter is almost 45 and has never been married. she would have liked to, but never met the right one. she finds fulfillment with her job, her pets, friends, etc.

i should also add that i broke up with my first in early '67. i married him when i was 19. it was the time of "make love -- not war" and i did. for 3-1/2 years i "sowed my wild oats". fortunately i had family who took care of my son so i never had to pay for child care or worry about him being with a stranger. when i met john i was a "wild hippie chick".

[Hippo_Tron]

244. Legally, absolutely none, and that's the way it ought to be...

Morally, assuming the man would be a decent father, I think that women should (and the vast majority would) take that under consideration. There's a whole host of other factors to consider, as well, no two situations are exactly alike.

[Bonobo]

247. "Honestly and respectfully"!

Ha! You've been in China too long.

Many people do not know how to stop being assholes.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

259. From the responses I've been getting, I tend to agree.

[bettyellen]

320. too bad he is not assimilated enough to shake off the rude combative attitude, ha ha.

he asks a question, and people give the *totally expected from progressive* answers and he calls that being attacked? No one called him names, they were just clear and emphatic in their responses. Not liking the answers is completely his own issue.

[Butterbean]

250. Having taken care of literally thousands of women during childbirth over the years...

I have to say that nothing, but NOTHING irritates and gets under my skin more than a man who says that he knows what the pain of labor is like because he had _______ (insert physical ailment/surgery here). Usually they say kidney stone or knee surgery.

No. No you DON'T know what the woman is feeling, TRUST ME. You DON'T. Plus, pregnancy is not just about the birthing of the child, it's about the carrying of the child, and all the complications that can come with that. I have taken care of women who were so swollen with pre-eclampsia that they couldn't bend their fingers or open their eyes. I have taken care of women who had to remain in trendelenburg position (lying on your back with the head of the bed tilted down and your feet tilted up) 24/7 in order to save their pregnancies. Try peeing in a bedpan when you're pregnant and in trendelenburg...anyway...

The point is, that it is the WOMAN'S body that is so permanently and profoundly altered, and that doesn't even begin to touch what goes on psychologically. To demand a woman go through a pregnancy when she is not ready and does not want to is just.....well.....barbaric.

Take care of a child rape victim whose mother doesn't believe in abortion, and witness forced birth at the behest of someone else's wishes and desires in action. I promise you, you will never, ever ask this question again.

[laundry_queen]

269. Agree with everything you say

every pregnancy of mine (4 total) caused massive changes in my body. I have a C-section scar that was poorly done and mutilated my stomach and has caused me a lot of grief and body issues. My bladder isn't the same. I had severe reactions to the IV a few times and my whole hand blistered and the skin peeled off (that's fun to deal with while trying to nurse a baby). Back and hip issues that never went away. The usual too...stretch marks everywhere, lots of swelling so that my feet and hands hurt to move, one pregnancy had 9 month long morning sickness. My first labor was so traumatic I was told I likely had PTSD from it. Then I had PPD with my second baby which caught me by surprise. That's not something that's easy to deal with. It was more difficult to deal with on a daily basis at the time than the PTSD, but I got over it more quickly. The PTSD still follows me around.

Even seemingly minor things add up. I have a really strong gag reflex now, something I never had until my first bout with morning sickness. I've talked to other women who had the same thing happen. After baby #3 I suddenly developed 13 cavities in my teeth. I was previously cavity free, had never had a single one in my life, always had straight teeth, no braces etc. I was horrified when the dentist asked me if I was bulimic. The mystery was solved with baby #4 when I felt like I always had acid in the back of my throat and I had even more morning sickness than baby#3 (the 9 months of sickness baby, lol). My doctor said it was likely GERD and gave me some meds. Never had another day of morning sickness after that. So pregnancy induced GERD caused massive decay in my teeth. I was also unable to regain my abdominal strength after my first C-section, which is a big deal for me because I have asthma and cough a lot, and get bronchitis a lot and now coughing is less efficient and needs more effort. I developed migraines with baby #2 that never did go away. There are just so many little things with each pregnancy that have impacted me in the long term.

Anyway, after what I went through with my first baby, how I was treated, the labor, botched c/s, ptsd, I agree forcing someone to go through that all when they don't want to is absolutely, without a doubt, barbaric. I'm lucky that I wanted my children very badly so I just dealt with what was thrown at me, because I knew I had signed up for it and it was worth it for me because I wanted children. I cannot, ever, imagine doing all that involuntarily. The very thought makes me ill.

[Butterbean]

310. Huge hugs to you.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Birthing the child is only one small part of being pregnant. The actual physiologic changes that happen to a woman's body during pregnancy to accommodate that growing baby are simply amazing, and quite frankly it's a flat out miracle to me that women's cardiovascular systems can handle the demands of pregnancy.

I really and truly have taken care of a child rape victim who gave birth because her mother didn't believe in abortion. It was as bad as you think it would be. The child had been reduced to the role of a vessel, not an actual human being. It was disgusting and highly disturbing.

Pregnancy permanently changes you, and sometimes, yes, it kills the woman. Even in 2014. To force someone to go through that because you want a baby is unfathomable to me. It really and truly is. It's treating a woman like a vessel, like she is a baby vending machine or something.

[riderinthestorm]

252. The woman faces the possibility of dying. You do not. Therefore the decision rests with her

SOLELY.

You may advise. But ultimately its her own body that confronts the possibility of dying in childbirth (or permanent disfigurement).

[Egalitarian Thug]

264. You married a woman 11 years younger than you. I'm sure there are good reasons for that, but

it's her decision and her timetable, period.

Unless you are proposing that some form of coercion is acceptable, there is no debate.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

265. I married a woman younger than me because most of the women I've met my age are either

married already (usually with a 10 year old kid). . .or they are divorced and feel shame and the face taken because (and I quote what I have been told many times) "divorced people only married divorced people and divorced men are bad men."

Thug. . .I'm not coercing her. I asked a question.

[Egalitarian Thug]

266. I didn't say you were, in fact I assumed that that is out of the question.

I just wanted to point out that since force is correctly not an option, there is nothing to debate.

The only position contrary to "it is her choice and hers alone" is some form of "no, it's not just her choice" and that necessitates the possibility of coercion in some form.

[bettyellen]

294. Thug, LOL? Are you attempting to pepper this conversation with the insults du jour at DU?

Hilarious.

[KittyWampus]

308. No, said DU'er is responding to another DU'er whose name is "Thug".

[bettyellen]

311. Oh, LOL. I had noticed that they picked up "buddy" from a post I wrote on another thread

(gosh I love it when people search your prior posts for "zingers&quot and that in general, these posts are peppered with some really odd flamebait- like the bit about "might as well kill her". It's interesting that most are trying to be polite, but any real disagreement is met with screams of "I am being attacked!!" Yeah, because asking for opinions and getting them is just so hurtful!

[Crunchy Frog]

271. If you want a child and your wife doesn't, then find someone else

or hire a surrogate.

No, you don't have any "say" in forcing your wife to gestate against her wishes.

[mfcorey1]

273. Simple, pair yourself with someone who wants the same things that you do. eom

[RedstDem]

276. Zero

a man has no providence over a women's body.

[LostOne4Ever]

293. It is about the right to one's own body

It's the woman's body and if she wants to carry a child to term she can do so if she wishes. If she does not want to share her body she has the right to get an abortion.

The father only gets a say when we find a way to get men pregnant

[Marr]

297. None, because it isn't your body.

Married or not, she's her own person and her body is hers.

[RobinA]

298. The Male Half

of the childbearing equation has as much say as the female half decides to give him. Sorry.

It saddens me to see otherwise good relationships hit the skids over child-bearing issues. The happiest couples I know are childless, usually not by choice. These people put their child-rearing energies into other things and seem to fare quite well in the long run. Certainly better than many couples with children, who let their own relationship lanquish for 18+ years and then end up after the children are grown wondering what hit them. Generalities, of course, but something I've noticed. Child-bearing should be a choice, not a societal obligation.

[JTFrog]

306. Honestly and respectfully?

Right. Taken with the same grain of salt as the rest of the rather Obvious post.

[kiranon]

307. Not a philosophical question. It's reality. She says "No" or it

could be he says "No". If one partner does not want children and, for the other it is a life necessity, both need to move on (child support is a separate issue - the child is here and needs to be supported). I've seen it happen many times and the parties were much happier afterwords. Most even remained friends and wished each other well. Anyone with a modicum of social skills can find another partner. Try on line dating - it works for many and this time put in your profile that you want to start a family and that not wanting children would be a deal breaker. Status: widowed with 2 children, married divorced man with no children and had 2 more children through adoption. Second husband also adopted my two children from first marriage. There are many kinds of family and parenting choices out there. Traditional is not the only way.

[hamsterjill]

316. The decision to endure childbirth is the woman's choice.

Until a man can go through pregnancy, labor and delivery - it will always be the woman's choice in my opinion.

[GreenEyedLefty]

336. NONE. The end.

[calimary]

345. I am rather ferociously pro-choice. My husband is, too.

We've been married almost since dinosaurs roamed the earth. But when we first got married, I did not want children. Actually, I didn't want them at all. On the other hand, my husband had nowhere near ruled it out. But because I didn't want children, and I also had a career that was going pretty great and was very demanding, he totally supported me. So for the first 13 years of our marriage, I pursued my career single-mindedly, and was very glad to do so. Besides, I was afraid that I might find myself someday resenting a child I'd had, who presumably might take me away from work and short-circuit my career and prevent me from building what I wanted to build.

And then I approached age 35 and had been knocked around (sometimes pretty hard) in various jobs, I started evolving. And circumstances combining the way they did, I hit age 35 and something snapped. All of a sudden, I decided that it was time, I wasn't getting any younger, I was in a job that provided some rather generous maternity leave advantages, and also I started realizing that it wasn't all about work for me anymore. I'd had plenty of time to build a career of which I was very proud, and I was getting older and feeling little twinges of awareness that the kinds of demands on my life, my energy, my time, my stress levels, etc. that my work required - just might be more suited to the younger professionals coming up behind me, who didn't mind fighting traffic, dealing with bullshit, standing on their feet all day and well into the evening covering a story and then yet again on their feet well into the wee hours editing tape, etc. My career, as it had evolved (I was a news reporter), began to be less and less what I got into the business to do and always wanted to do.

I was in broadcasting to BROADCAST. Unfortunately, soon enough, my job became mostly about office politics and driving miles through rush-hour traffic to cover some story or conduct some in-person interview, and knock myself out for people who didn't give a damn and weren't that interested in the product I was generating, or supervisors who were damn near un-pleasable, hyper-critical, and playing political power games all the time and cutting back on staff but piling that extra work on those of us who were still on staff, writing memos and answering this new development called an email and trying to figure out this new development called electronic editing when I'd always worked with reel-to-reel tape and a splicing block. I'd go cover some fancy event like the Oscars for which we were required to dress up - but since I wasn't allowed an engineer anymore, I was always down on my hands and knees crawling around under tables on filthy floors and in dirty corners with wire-strippers and stuff, searching in vain for phone-line inputs and other stuff, and in over my head on the electronics part which I was almost totally unfit to understand. My actual broadcast time withered down to maybe three percent of my average day. Office politics and other bullshit started to eat up a bigger and bigger share of this. It just wasn't fun anymore. What I loved about my job - was fast fading away. As that disenchantment grew, and I was falling out of love with my career, I started realizing that maybe this was the time I could shift gears in a more meaningful direction for my life. I figured if I was gonna do it at all, we better try for it now. This was also with a clear memory of Patti Frustaci and her absolute obsessive desperation to have more children so she took fertility drugs and went through a ridiculously arduous, extreme, and expensive ordeal and had the first set of septuplets.

http://archive.is/dUcvm

I didn't want to go through that. So we got started, and my husband was more than ready. No kidding about that, either! Much to my surprise, one baby and then two-and-a-half years later another, arrived - and rather swiftly, too. We didn't mess around! (Uh, well, I guess maybe we did mess around just enough... )

Longwinded way of saying - my husband and I were not on the same page for quite some time. And he waited until I was ready. It was totally my choice, my decision, and my call. Those kids are both grown now and pretty much gone, and my husband and I are still together and going strong.

[LWolf]

346. Fathers and husbands matter, BUT

men's choices are different. I am not a fervent pro-choice advocate; I'm pro-choice because the practical alternatives are worse.

Your question fits.

Men's acceptable choices: 1. Don't father children, or 2. If you want to father children, put it on the table before you get married, and don't marry someone who chooses differently.

There are other alternative choices, of course. Men can, and do, father children that they don't raise or support. Men can father children that they help raise as an absent parent. Men can parent other men's children. Men can adopt. But in your context, it's # 1 or 2. You can choose to divorce a woman that doesn't want children, but pressuring her into children she doesn't want is not okay. You can wait for her to change her mind, and possibly end up bitter, or you can accept her choice and stay with her, or you can move on.

[Iggo]

348. Zero.

[kestrel91316]

350. NO ONE has the right to force any woman to bear a child against her wishes.

PERIOD.

And if she doesn't want the child, and her husband wants to force her anyway, that marriage is irretrievably broken.

Men get to be in charge of their own bodies. So do women. No one owns any other person, marital status notwithstanding.

[kestrel91316]

351. I had a client who did NOT want children, but his wife did, and her

biological clock was ticking. They got this amazing thing called a DIVORCE, which they went about amicably, and she remarried and had kids.

He moved back to Canada, where he is living, childless, with his GF who also doesn't want children.

See, that was easy. NOBODY got forced into slavery.

[1monster]

354. If one parent wants a child and the other dosen't, then don't have the child. The parent who

doesn't may come around, but that parent may end up resnting the child and the spouse who pressured him/her into parenthood.

If there is not agreement or compromise acceptable to both, and the spouse who wants a child will have to determine what is most important to him/her, his/her spouse or the desire to have a child.

It the desire to have a child is more important than staying with the spouse, then the course is pretty obvious.

In your case, is it that your wife doesn't want children at all, or is it that she doesn't feel ready to have children? In the second case, give her some time. Many women put off having children until their 30s these days.

[booley]

366. Biology

The biological fact is pregnancy lays it all on the woman's body, not the mans.

So the most direct consequences always fall on the woman.

I think men should shave more say. BUT any decision has to account for this biological reality.

Maybe parents could come up with something like one signing away parental rights. Obviously however that's impossible when the "child" is still a part of your body.

[targetpractice]

367. You cannot force someone to be pregnant... Not for one day, not for nine months... Not at all.

Not your wife, not your daughter, not your constituent. Nobody, but yourself. Figure that out, or adopt, or find someone who's on your same page regarding children.

[BainsBane]

371. Now about we put control of your body up for political debate?

If I don't want a baby, should I be able to force a man to get a vasectomy? If he cheats, should I be able to force him to be castrated?
Why is it that women's bodies are treated as mere property for you to debate?

Common sense would tell you to find a partner who shares your goals for children. Everyone knows that much. It's basic. Since you didn't do that, you've decided to turn MY body into a political football. You think hacking me open and ripping out a fetus is a legitimate subject of discussion, which tells me you see me as without the most basic rights. That is worse than the right to lifers because they at least have a moral concern for human life. The men who want to force women to have abortions only care about saving a few dollars.

My body, my basic human rights, is a not a political game. I am a human being, and when someone treats basic control over my body and my life up for political discussion, he makes clear he refuses to conceive of women as human beings with full rights.

Whenever I think this is the 21st century and society is progressing, I only need to sign on to DU to see just how furiously some are working to turn the clock back.