Keene, N.H., is where I wouldn't want to live right now

[jmowreader]

There is a "sovereign citizen" group called Free Keene that's currently infesting the local judicial system...they go out and commit fairly minor offenses then spend hours upon hours in court.

For instance, here's a guy who spent over an hour in court arguing the constitutionality of a traffic stop with the cop who pulled him over, joined the Air Force after the stop, and had to be transported back to testify against him.

The same guy spent 30 minutes arguing the jurisdiction of Keene's parking meter ordinance.

Apparently the rest of town is getting sick of their shit; it's costing thousands upon thousands of dollars to deal with their court filings and crap like convening full-scale trials to deal with the kinds of tickets normal people either (1) don't get because they obey the law in the first place, or (2) throw five bucks in an envelope and be done with it if they do get them.

[Boom Sound 416]

1. And?

Did they win any of the trials at least?

[NYC_SKP]

3. Ever heard of Posse Comitatus?

Sovereign Citizens only recognize local law... FBI calls them domestic terrorists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

The Keene group has a webpage: http://freekeene.com/

I don't know if they win or lose, and I don't know if they even care!

[jmowreader]

7. There's a better one, from Montana

This asshole was nailed for fishing without a license because the "natural law" says he has the right to forage for food. If the courts were to recognize the "natural law" rather than the "statute law" society would come to an end because natural law basically comes down to "I can do whatever the hell I want and fuck you if you don't like it."

We have a codified set of laws we are required to live by because the natural tendency of any person is to act in his or her own self-interest, regardless of whether that self-interest collides with someone else's. (The old libertarian saying "your right to throw a punch ends at the tip of my nose" applies here.) Society would inevitably collapse if laws were all revoked, as the sovereigns seem to wish, because perhaps 1 in 1000 people would survive in an environment where no punishment for wrongdoing existed. And the first batch of people who would perish would be the sovereigns. Notice: the sovereign citizen shows exactly zero propensity for responsible action if left to his own devices, as witnessed by this "Ian Freeman" moran in Keene who spends all his time fucking up so he can go to court and hassle meter maids. Seriously, guys: a man who needs no laws follows an innate moral code that keeps him from afflicting his fellow human. Freeman needs laws desperately because all he seems to want to do is to piss on society.

[Renew Deal]

15. These are crazy people.

The laws of the United States do not end at the "constitution of 1789." They begin there.

[jmowreader]

17. They seem to pick and choose the exact laws they like

Another entertaining one: the Free Keene people have started their own nation, called the Shire.

It is at http://shiresociety.com.

Now, the Shire happens to be within the corporate boundaries of the State of New Hampshire, so according to Article IV, Section 3 of the document they claim to love so the Shire is illegal (you can't chop pieces out of a state without the consent of both the state being chopped and Congress) but that's neither here nor there. What is both here and there, is they're issuing license plates and claiming international law allows them to display these plates.

[jmowreader]

5. Seems like about half, which the prosecution basically gives up on

Sovereigns love to write these massive briefs full of spaghetti-like legalese in them, and a lot of the time the authorities just say "the hell with it, this isn't all that big a crime in the first place..."

When they DO get fined, they always say they "can't" pay fines.

They should be real glad I never went to law school; I would put in for a job as a judge and start throwing Free Keeners straight in jail. "You can't pay fines? All right by me, because you can go to the slammer for as long as I say you will." Isn't it one dollar in fines equals one day in jail?

[leftyohiolib]

2. raise court costs to 1 million dollars

[alcibiades_mystery]

4. Dude's an asshole

Humans have a right to travel, so speeding laws are unconstitutional.

Selfish shithead.

[jmowreader]

8. Humans do not, however, have a right to take out innocent bystanders with their cars

Therefore speeding laws are highly constitutional because they help protect against people driving past the limits of a road, going out of control and taking out a bus stop.

[alcibiades_mystery]

9. To be fair, he spent a good deal of time demonstrating that he was not "endangering anyone"

which remained beside the point, since he wasn't being charged with reckless driving. The only element that needed to be proved was that he was exceeding the speed limit. His argument was that speed limits themselves are unconstitutional.

Either way, dude's an asshole.

[Renew Deal]

14. That's not the nature of the argument

They are arguing that there are no laws that apply to them. It's the same type of people that claim that they don't have to pay taxes. Also the same type of people that don't vaccinate their kids.

[Shrike47]

13. Humans have a right to travel and he's got feet. Everything else is subject to regulation.

I'm not sure I want him using our roads, either.

[aikoaiko]

6. Even with that, Keene is still a great NH town. 2nd only to Portsmouth.

Arguably.

[jaysunb]

10. I was in Keene working for Howard Dean 10 years ago

this past week. They seem to be some pretty nice folks with some pretty diverse opinions, but all fiercely loyal to their town.
....I'm getting a chill just remembering how cold it was.

[matt819]

11. Keene area great place to live

The free staters started coming here - NH - about ten years ago. Apart from their antics in Keene, I don't really follow them or know what impact they have had. As far as i cantell, they are a nuisance, kind of like libertarians generally.

I think the free staters, or other ad hoc libertarians,are behind the robin hood movement, in whichtey follow and harass parking officers and go ahead of them putting coins in expired meters to deprive Keene of finer ensue. I'm all for that, though the harassment and vebalabuse is uncalled for. I can't stand parking fines, but The parking people are just doing their jobs. The robin holders case was dismissed because they were deemed to be exercising their first amendment rights.

All of that aside, and forgetting for a moment that i hate winters in the northeast, this is a good place to live. The monadnock region is beautiful, the politics generally liberal. More to recommend it, of course. No need to tar and feather us because of these clowns.

[bluestate10]

12. Bro, if you don't like Northeast winters there is s solution. It's called moving to warmer

places I mean, you don't love the winters that enhances our moments of Introspection? I love northeast winters because they are times for self assessment and renewal, plus they make me enjoy the other seasons more than I would if not for the winters in these parts.

[matt819]

19. I know, I know

On balance, I couldn't live anywhere else. But self assessment and renewal? I just want to get through them. You can self assess and renew on my behalf.

[Riftaxe]

16. Don't forget the wide variety of colorful

drunken college students in the area....

I had a brother that lived in Keene, it's a nice place and I always enjoyed the drive south on the back roads to it in the fall.

[matt819]

20. Yes, we have our share of those

But what college town doesn't, sadly.

I haven't looked at statistics, but my impression is that there's been an increase in violent crime, but that could just be a visceral response to newspaper headlines.

Hey, the area isn't perfect. What place is? But, as I just posted in response to another comment, on balance I don't think I'd want to live anywhere else.

[Drunken Irishman]

18. If they lose, have 'em pay back the court costs. That'll shut 'em up fast.

[Jersey Devil]

21. NJ courts have a way to deal with this crap effectively and NH might consider doing the same

In NJ you cannot argue the constitutionality (or jurisdiction in most cases) of a law in a local municipal court, so constitutional arguments against traffic laws, etc., would be cut short immediately. These are almost all part time courts that meet a few times a month and can't be burdened with this baloney.

If you want to challenge the constitutionality of a law you must file a motion with the Superior Court in your county. There a full time judge will be assigned to the case and he/she can order that legal arguments be confined to written briefs with no oral argument. NH should deal with it the same way in my opinion.