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Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:42 AM

I Look Down on Young Women With Husbands and Kids and I'm Not Sorry

Apparently, this blog post is whipping up a shitstorm. Here are just a few snippets:

Amy Glass: Do people really think that a stay at home mom is really on equal footing with a woman who works and takes care of herself? Thereís no way those two things are the same. Itís hard for me to believe itís not just verbally placating these people so they donít get in trouble with the mommy bloggers.

Having kids and getting married are considered life milestones. We have baby showers and wedding parties as if itís a huge accomplishment and cause for celebration to be able to get knocked up or find someone to walk down the aisle with. These arenít accomplishments, they are actually super easy tasks, literally anyone can do them. They are the most common thing, ever, in the history of the world. They are, by definition, average. And hereís the thing, why on earth are we settling for average?

...

You will never have the time, energy, freedom or mobility to be exceptional if you have a husband and kids.

...

Women will be equal with men when we stop demanding that it be considered equally important to do housework and real work. They are not equal. Doing laundry will never be as important as being a doctor or an engineer or building a business. This word play is holding us back.


http://thoughtcatalog.com/amy-glass/2014/01/i-look-down-on-young-women-with-husbands-and-kids-and-im-not-sorry/



Wow. That's pretty blunt.

What do you think? Is Amy Glass right? Is motherhood an inferior lifestyle? Is my wife a really lame person for staying home much of the first fifteen years of our marriage? Is she wrong for having loved it?

I don't for a second think that all women should choose stay-at-home motherhood. But for those who do, they don't deserve to be scorned or mocked for that choice, any more than men who choose to be stay-at-home fathers.

I'm curious to see what DU thinks.

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Reply I Look Down on Young Women With Husbands and Kids and I'm Not Sorry (Original post)
Common Sense Party Jan 2014 OP
pnwmom Jan 2014 #1
Common Sense Party Jan 2014 #4
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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:49 AM

1. Who says that everyone should be trying to be exceptional?

Maybe some people just want to have a decent job and a decent life, with people to care about.

Most men aren't exceptional. Why is that something all women need to (fruitlessly) aim for?

"You will never have the time, energy, freedom or mobility to be exceptional if you have a husband and kids."

If that is the choice (which I don't believe), I'd be on the side of human relationships any day.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:54 AM

4. To my children, my wife IS pretty exceptional.

And now that they're getting older, moving out of the house, they are realizing they were damn lucky to have her--and to have her there.

And for some blogger to say that what she did was no big deal, nothing noteworthy, ho hum, she's not as important as someone in an office job...it's disgusting, frankly.

But, stupid opinions are a dime a dozen on the internets.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #4)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:01 PM

142. Saying something is not exceptional is very different from saying something is not important.

I have a career. To the wider world it probably seems small. I help a limited number of people a very great deal. It is certainly not exceptional but to me and to those people, it is very important.

I think that is the distinction pnwmom is making. To your children she may be exceptional, but her choice of career, like mine, is truly not particularly exceptional. But that certainly does not mean it is not meaningful, and it does not mean it is not important. In my opinion, a teacher or a parent, or a doctor or a librarian is doing much more important work than, say, a stock analyst, though the stock analyst is seen as more exceptional in our society.

Who I look down on are those men and women who feel it is up to them to decree the relative importance of others' career choices. It is no different from those who castigated women in the past for NOT having children.

I think the person who wrote that article must be very young and ignorant.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #142)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:10 PM

146. It depends on the definition of 'exceptional.'

: not usual : unusual or uncommon

: unusually good : much better than average


Some people (the blogger) think that 'exceptional' ONLY means the exception to the norm, not common.

I believe (and Webser's agrees) it also means unusually good.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #146)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:23 PM

149. Of course there are the semantics, but I think pnwmom's point is also an interesting one:

Are we all really so childish that we all need to be king of the hill, and we can only respect the king of the hill? That we must have the attention of others to feel worthy? That we must have outside approval to have a decent self-image, and can't see the value of quiet work that benefits all of us?

I think that is what the writer of the article is revealing about herself. That she needs other-approval to feel worthy, and she can't understand the motivations of those whose pursuits don't include attention and trappings of status.

I think that is a lot of what is wrong in our culture. Only certain flashy life choices are respected and rewarded, and the number of choices that qualify for this respect is dwindling. But at the same time, the pursuit of the approval of others as the foundation of self-image is a guarantee of unhappiness. This is where this money-hoarding mentality that's ruining us is coming from.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:05 AM

10. History strongly suggests this blog poster will die and be forgotten.

That is the fate of 99.99% of us, and it's fine.

Don't waste your life worrying about being "exceptional", focus on fulfillment, wisdom and kindness.

That's how I see it, anyway.

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #10)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 08:42 AM

91. over a long enough timeline

the survival rate is zero.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:06 AM

54. she's basically saying that career is more important

than family.

Okay, so being a doctor is more significant than being a mother.

Or is it?

What if one of that mother's children becomes a doctor? Or an engineer? Or a kindergarten teacher?

My mom has two sisters who never married, and both had careers. Were they more exceptional that she is? Mom has five kids, who have five careers. Doesn't FIVE beat a mere ONE any day of the week? Mom has nine grandkids who will likely have nine careers. Now the score, if we are keeping score, is 14 to 1.

I'd say mom wins, even by this bloggers twisted measuring stick.

And what about dad's career? Wasn't his family a big part of his reason for working, and for advancing? Wasn't mom there as a partner for dad, providing both support and services and encouragement? Ask him, and he'd tell you.

And as far as getting somebody to marry you. That's probably easier for women, but I know lots of men, myself included, who have not been able to manage it. It's not THAT easy.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #54)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:53 AM

129. learning to read class language

 

what she is trying to convey is that if you are not rich and famous, or exceptional in the american context where she is, you are not worthy.

more proof that class warfare lives strongly within america? you betcha.

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Response to brisas2k (Reply #129)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 12:12 AM

252. I noticed that also.

Who the hell is she to look down on anyone? Her post came across as very anti average and working class. She blames other women for not being treated with respect, almost as if sexism is all our fault. Yet another woman attacking women for their personal choices, it's just more victim-blaming in a way.

Someone should point out to her that while doctors may save lives, mothers create life.

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Response to brisas2k (Reply #129)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 12:33 AM

255. Excellent point -- class snark. "Only MDs or PhDs count"

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:09 AM

102. exactly.

 

I don't "look down" on people who don't "choose" to be doctors, lawyers or indian chiefs.

I don't "look down" on people who choose to have a simpler life.

I also don't "bow down" to them.

I do, however, envy women who get to be "stay at home" moms. I'm practically counting the days to retirement so I can be "stay at home" too. I want it so badly I'm afraid I'll break a leg jumping toward it when I reach the end of the count down. If it ever arrives...

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:51 AM

2. staying home

to give your kids an awesome childhood can be a very exceptional thing to do. What a buffoon.

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Response to cvoogt (Reply #2)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:13 AM

118. I will argue that staying home more than a few years is pretty unwise in this era...

 

... women need to be able to support themselves if needs be.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #118)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 11:32 AM

137. True

But it's possible to stay home and still earn a living too, though it's not easy

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #118)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 08:13 AM

260. I was a "stay at home" mom for our three daughters from 1985 through 1999.

During that time (from 1994 through 1999) I went back to school to earn my second Bachelor's degree and my Master's and have been working full-time since then.

I love my current job (speech-language pathologist), but was happy to be at home while our girls were little. My husband and I made lots of sacrifices for me to be home (our kids are still pissed off that we never took them to Disney, and we drove our cars until they croaked while others got new ones every few years), and I did do some very small part-time work during that time (babysat a neighbor's kids, worked at the YMCA teaching a "Mommy & Me" class) but nothing in the work world compares to the amount of work I put in raising our girls. The payoff is nothing less than spectacular.

Not everyone can afford to do this now, but my husband and I weren't rich and I feel fortunate that I was able to be home when I was.

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Response to phylny (Reply #260)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 09:09 AM

262. Congratulations...

 

On your degrees/career and daughters! They both sound awesome! It sounds to me like you made the best devision for you. But I do want to point out that a lot of folks don't go that route and also raise great kids. For example, my daughter started part time daycare at 6 months, and she is a great kid. We were far from rich at the tine, but we're fortunate enough to find good, affordable daycare/pre-school. I think a lot depends on how you interact with the kids when you are with them.

I think my wife would have preferred to stay home with her longer (for her, not so much for my daughter), but she was in a spot in her career where that was very hard. It was a big of logistical nightmare, though, because she was breastfeeding....

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #262)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 12:57 PM

268. No need for congratulations, it's just my story. I do know & agree that there are lots of scenarios

and what works for some can't and won't work for others. Some people don't want to stay at home, some can't. I think it was a lot easier to do it in the 80s and 90s than it is today. I commented to point out that there's no harm or shame in doing what you want and what works best for your family, and I was as busy at home as I am at work - I just had more flexibility at home!

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:51 AM

3. Oh boy ...

 

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:59 AM

5. I hate being a stay at home mom.

 

Longest four years of my life.
This is the last year, thank science for birth control. Some women aren't into babies and weddings and homemaking. I'm not. I hate it.
When I see somebody who enjoys it I feel guilty, like I'm missing something that they were born with. I don't down them, I do ask them for advise on how to manage households. It's haaaard.
I can manage a payroll department, but I can't handle staying at home.

Amy Glass is an asshole. Marriage is hard. Pregnancy is haaaard! I suck at it.

Your wife is awesome, probably pretty patient, and I'm sure she's a great multi tasker. She has to be to handle managing a household for all those years.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:03 AM

9. "Some women aren't into babies and weddings and homemaking. I'm not. I hate it."

 

Then why did you do it?

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #9)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:15 AM

19. Didn't get married. No wedding. Still resisting that one.

 

Didn't know how much work babies were. My bad.
I love cooking so I cook. I hate cleaning so I let him do it, and he has to do the laundry too.
My daughter is autistic so I had to take time off from work to take care of her. I ended up losing my job.

Sometimes you don't know you don't like something until you try it. Like with food.

I love my kids, but I don't want any more ever. Too much work. Not enough money to give them what I want them to have.

I miss being with adults. I've been working from age 15 to 29 nonstop. I thought I'd enjoy being a stay at home mom. I didn't, time to get back to work.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:24 AM

24. Our oldest is autistic, non-verbal. 20 years old now.

I think I understand why you want to get back to work.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:29 AM

31. It's very hard.

 

She's 8, but speaks at a 3 year old level. I feel so lucky that she starting to let me in. I'm glad you understand.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #24)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:30 AM

35. may I ask

is he completely non-verbal or does he do limited verbal communication.....I ask because I have a severely autistic brother

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Response to Skittles (Reply #35)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:32 AM

37. Pretty much non-verbal.

If he's in the mood, he'll mumble repeat one word for something he wants.

"Do you want raisins?"

"Rrrss."

He never initiates any communication, though.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #37)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:37 AM

41. whenever I look at childhood photos of me and my brothers

Randy never seems to be looking at the camera

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Response to Skittles (Reply #41)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:47 AM

49. Yeah, family photos are always a treat.

We just tell the photog, "If he's looking anywhere in the general vicinity of the camera, go for it."

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #49)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:56 AM

52. I think here my brother made him look at the camera


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Response to Skittles (Reply #52)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:05 PM

145. That is an insanely cute bunch.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:25 AM

25. Good luck to to.

 

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #25)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:29 AM

32. Thank you.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:26 PM

196. Hey, it's not for everyone!

Just because one set of humans is equipped with fetal containers and another set isn't - doesn't always mean, iron-clad, that the container class is locked into that. I love my kids, too. And I stepped away from a rather carnivorous career to be able to take care of them. But shit! I wouldn't have any more! I found two to be PLENTY enough, and it was hard work, and it was as demanding on a 24-hour basis as my career in news (which is also a round-the-clock responsibility). I've spent quite a bit of time recently - contemplating the concept of "woman as container." Sort of the next step leading from "woman as property." Both utterly revolting to me, but unfortunately still embraced by the likes of FAR too many huckabees and santorums of the world.

I find myself noticing other women with kids or pushing strollers or whatever - and I'm glad I'm not there anymore. Glad my inner works are all old and dried up, so I don't even have the option anymore. Glad I'm done. Glad I did it, but also very glad I'm done. I love the bejeezuss outa them. I'm proud of the two kids I raised. Well, spousal-unit did help and provide backup, but it was mainly on me. And it was HARD! My job was hard, too. But it's a different hard.

And some women are just not there. Regardless of their bodies being able to do it. You need your mind and your muscles and your intellect and all that other stuff too, besides just ovaries. Motherhood is NOT for every woman on the planet. It's not every woman's destiny. Some are better at it than others. Some are better at rolling with the punches than others. That's just how the cards are dealt.

And I'm glad there's a choice. I'm glad we have choices, and options, and MANY directions we can pursue. Our horizons are unlimited rather than single-directed. As they should be. I once saw a movie called "First Monday in October" - a 1981 release starring the late Jill Clayburgh (WUNNNNderful actress) as the first woman Supreme Court Justice. Her character was married but childless, brilliant and extraordinarily accomplished before being tapped for the job by her President. During her confirmation hearings, that came up. Inevitably there were those knuckle-dragger Senator characters who questioned her worthiness for this nomination because, of all her accomplishments, she hadn't had children, so she was somehow devalued. Somehow less. A lesser person. And one of her lines in response (that just absolutely tattooed onto my brain) was "my ideas are my children" - regarding her rulings, her writings, her interpretations of the law on the lower bench. That's the legacy she wished to build and leave as a judge - and then, eventually also, as a judge empaneled on the highest court in the land. That just burned into my psyche. "My ideas are my children." With some women, that IS how it is. And until I finally decided maybe it was time for me to have children, I felt that way. Strongly. I felt that way for years. I STILL feel that way. What women build as a legacy certainly includes family and children, the offspring who will grow and impact the Earth and society and civilization as we know it (hopefully in a positive way). But women are capable of building and bequeathing to the world so much more than only that! Why some elements of society wish to limit us is really troublesome to me. It's one of the biggest beefs I have with my church - and yes, with my new Pope. He's light years more open and progressive than his predecessors on many counts - except, unfortunately, this one.

We were endowed with BRAINS, too, dammit! Not just ovaries. I never saw a "woman" walking around as two ovaries and a uterus on a pair of legs. There are also arms and shoulders and muscles and guts and hands and a heart and a large cerebral cortex filled with reason and logic and compassion and discernment - and a voice - as well. I think there's probably a reason for that...

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Response to calimary (Reply #196)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:01 PM

209. This is the best post I have read today.

 

I'm done feeling guilty about wanting my kids and wanting to work. And being better at working than raising kids is fine with me. I got my IUD at my six week check up after having my youngest and I'm scheduled for another in 2019. I'm glad I have the ability to make the right choices for me. Some women are not so lucky.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:05 AM

11. Thanks,

and best of luck.

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Response to elleng (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:17 AM

20. Your welcome.

 

And thank you.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:19 AM

21. Don't feel guilty. Everyone has different strengths, different talents.

I was in sales for more years than I should have been. I suck at it. I'd look at other successful sales people and beat myself up for not being just like them, schmoozy and slick. But that's not me. I have other skills that they don't have.

I think learning from others, as you say, is a great idea. I always tried to improve myself when I could, but tried not to define myself by my weaknesses.

Yes, my wife is a great multi-tasker and she was amazing to be able to raise our special needs son and our two daughters while I was absent more than I would have liked. Now that she has gone back to work and is running her HR/payroll department, those multitasking skills are getting a workout. And the patience she learned over the first 15 years definitely helps her now in the workplace.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:27 AM

27. I look forward to aquiring that patience like your wife.

 

Funny, she and I do similar work. Maybe I'll get better at this as I get older.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #27)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:28 AM

30. I like to think I'm responsible. She had to develop patience to not kill me

before the kids came along.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #30)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:31 AM

36. Good one!

 

Using it on my SO in the next whose more awesome contest.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:55 AM

51. Why did you have children then? If I felt that way the solution is simple, don't have any children.

I can't think of anything more satisfying than not slaving away to make someone else rich and staying home to raise a family, to be there, as my mom was, what an exceptional woman, to experience every step they take towards becoming exceptional human beings themselves. I would not trust that most important job to any stranger who is just doing it for the money. Love is a powerful thing.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #51)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:08 AM

56. I love having children. I don't love feeling trapped at home.

 

It's exhausting. I decided to give staying at home a try four years ago, Sabrina. I'm not good at it.
My daughter is Autistic. She needs extensive therapy, physical, occupational, educational, and lots of self care support.
Just don't have children is a stupid thing to say to a woman with two children. Should I get in my time machine and have an abortion? I guess I just wasn't born psychic enough to know she'd have these extensive problems. I'll tell her to pull herself up by her bootstraps so that I can get some rest, since my job never ends and I'd like a few minutes to myself a few times a day just to plan the rest of my day.

I'm glad your mother enjoyed raising her children and would rather be home taking care of them than working.
Having a disabled child at home who you know will be living with you and needing your care until the day you die is a daunting task and may be different than what she faced. Try it, walk a few days in my shoes and then tell me how you're going to do that and save for the future at the same time.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #56)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:00 PM

180. Thanks for being totally honest about your experiences, especialy in the face of such unsympatheitc

 

and cruel judgement. Some people are so wrapped up in defending their own choices- invested in being "right" , they can't imagine that they aren't right for many others. It's obvious that the reality of what you have been facing flew right over their heads. It ain't the fifties anymore, it's not easy to stay at home- even with healthy kids. So sorry to see the lack of empathy displayed here.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #180)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:21 PM

213. Judging without experience is for conservatives.

 

When people do that I feel sorry for them, I feel pity. The truth is usually uncomfortable, and I like it that way. Life's not a cool party where if you make the right choice you end up having a fun a free time. You can make the right choices and still be stressed out, tired and miserable.

So people saying just don't have kids then, make me laugh. I mean I know mothers are awesome as hell, but we don't have time machines. Can't go back, we can only move forward.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #213)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:59 PM

217. very well said- and looking fwd to hearing about your next chapter!

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #180)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:49 PM

243. Thank you, bettyellen. You spared me from having to say something myself

and I try really hard to avoid certain "people" around here.

Some people are so wrapped up in defending their own choices- invested in being "right" , they can't imagine that they aren't right for many others.

Well said.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #243)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:29 PM

249. you are welcome. I absolutely get why you hesitate to engage some here.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #56)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:18 PM

189. Hugs

My son is on the spectrum, although in the past he would have simply been labeled as "retarded." He's fairly capable of self-care, but he probably will be living with us his entire life.

Some people simply don't understand how difficult parenting can be, even with neurotypical kids. Special needs children are EXHAUSTING.

Sending lots of hugs. You did not deserve that judgmental response.

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Response to Stargazer09 (Reply #189)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:15 PM

212. Thank you.

 

For understanding. I know it's hard for you cause it's hard for me. And yes I get so exhausted having to re teach the same things day after day. I cry sometimes. But I think it's getting better and I am getting better at it.

I don't mind being judged, it helps me in a way. I like to know what people are going to say to me or think about me. Better to meet them head on than to start feeling bad about myself.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #51)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 08:10 AM

87. Do you say the same to men who don't want to be stay at home parents?

"If you don't want to stay at home, dad, why did you have kids?"

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Response to gollygee (Reply #87)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:03 PM

183. Exactly. I feel like it's 1950 up in here, LOL. That is some regressive BS, right there. Simple is

 

right, although not in the way I believe it was intended.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #51)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 11:13 AM

133. Sabrina, you can have children and not be a stay at home mom... did you mean to ask this question?

tia

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #133)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:23 PM

191. very sad to see that needs to be pointed out- and here of all places. Shameful.

 

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Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 06:53 AM

78. We're all so different, brave.. built to

excel in different things. We shouldn't feel guilty if we're not as adept as other mothers and homemakers who were born for it.

My daughter is one of those.. she has a Masters in Ed but it worked out the best for their family that she kept their home, hearth, and kids running smoothly for 18 years so far. Yes, "multi tasker" is the word. Their oldest is a freshman in college now. It's been a full time job with enormous rewards.

But, it's not for everyone. One more year, huh? Hang in there and enjoy it the best you can.

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Response to Cha (Reply #78)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 07:06 AM

81. I will and I have been enjoying just being with my kids.

 

My youngest starts pre k in the fall and then I know I'll be missing being at home with her. Taking care of my kids and home is the hardest thing I've ever done. I always say I need an Alice like on the Brady bunch if I want it to be easy.
I promised I'd stay until the baby was in school, and now she's reading and writing and internet surfing I think I've done what I said I was going to do. Daddy can take his turn now, he's going to work nights so I can work days.
Some people try to pretend that it's just so easy and natural to be a mother and they're just wrong. I'd have many more kids if I had somebody who knew what they were doing helping me out ( doing it for me).

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Response to bravenak (Reply #81)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 07:13 AM

82. It's such a huge responsibility!

Little lives, hearts, and minds are in our hands.

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Response to Cha (Reply #82)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 07:17 AM

83. Not for the faint of heart.

 

They trust you and depend on you. It feels good and scary at the same time. Thank you off understanding where I'm coming from.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #83)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:51 PM

244. You are wonderful. Your daughter is lucky to have you.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #244)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:55 PM

245. Thank you.

 

She really likes me a lot. I do my best.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #81)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:22 PM

166. Honey, NObody knows what they're doing.......

......when it comes to raising kids. Every single kid is different -- what works with one will completely fail with another.

Some friends of mine (new'ish parents -- their daughter just turned one) cracked me up with postings they made to their Facebook pages on her first birthday -- it wasn't the typical chatter about how blessed they felt to have their beautiful little girl in their lives or how much they love her (which, trust me, they do -- they are amazing parents) -- they were, basically, high-fiving each other over the fact that they had managed to keep another human being alive for a WHOLE year. It just reminded me that when it comes to raising children, everyone is flying by the seat of their pants, and trying to figure out the best way to handle things, day-to-day -- sometimes moment-to-moment.

My own children are grown (probably not much younger than you), and I'm still flying by the seat of my pants. There is always some new hurdle to cross or upset to recover from, and while my role has changed from one of active involvement to more of a consultant, I'm still hard-pressed at times to know "what" to do / say. Like the old cliche says, life doesn't come with instructions.

Hang in there. You're doing a great a job -- maybe not a perfect job, but, trust me, NObody is doing it perfectly. NOBODY.

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Response to Amaril (Reply #166)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:31 PM

170. You made me laugh so hard!!

 

My mom says I must have carpal tunnel from pattin myself on the back for just keeping the family fed. I always call her and say ' okay I fed the kids, I'm done for the day', whenever I'm done cooking. She always asks me if I'm going to put them in a box and play with them tomorrow. I have to remind her that my gramma raised us until I was 6 so she never did this part by herself. More food gives on the floor than into my kids. I feel like I accomplished something big when I get the little one to eat half of her food.

I'll keep trying to figure it out until they tell me to stop bothering them.

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Response to Amaril (Reply #166)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:00 PM

246. I love this post. And as a mother of two myself, I couldn't agree more

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Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 07:25 AM

85. I'm a full time stay at home dad.

Fuck this lady.

e: meant to be a reply to the OP, sorry.

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Response to davepc (Reply #85)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 07:27 AM

86. Right on.

 

She don't know jack.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 08:56 AM

98. staying home isn't for everyone.

It doesn't make anyone less or more being a stay at home or working parent. I think society tries to pit us against each other. When you are working you feel guilty that you are not home with the kids, when you stay home you feel guilty that you aren't contributing. Nothing could be further from the truth. As a stay at home mom I am here and when my friends or my sister need someone to watch or pick up their kids, they know I am here to help. Imagine what we could do if we banded together.... that's why some want there to be a war. Because as women no matter what we do we are either selfish or lazy or something that is negative. Instead of accepting our strengths and showing THAT to our kids and being happy with who we are and what we are doing. I believe that regardless whether we are working or staying home, that our mindset and being happy with who we are is the most exceptional thing we can do for ourselves and everyone around us.

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Response to ejpoeta (Reply #98)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:49 AM

113. You are so spot on.

 

I have a friend who is retiring this year from teaching pre school in Texas. She will be moving back home in a couple of months to live with me and help me with the kids while I work. Already bought the plane ticket for a good price, and she's giving away her stuff. She's 52 and her body can't take all that running and jumping all day anymore, and the pay sucks for a preschool teacher in Texas. She's like my second mother and she's good with kids loved staying at home with her children before her divorce.
She works full time and can't afford to live without accepting housing assistance, but everytime she makes an extra dollar they raise her rent. She said if I'll work she'll mind the kids for me, since she needs surgery on her foot but can't afford to take the time off if she wants a place to live and to eat everyday.

It's like this society makes it doubly hard on a woman on purpose. She raised her kids, worked when she was able, and gets no respect for all the hard work and dedication. All she gets is sore feet and no Obamacare. The last thing we women need is for another woman who never lived our lives to stand In judgement over us. We get enough of that from men already.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #113)

Tue Feb 4, 2014, 06:38 AM

269. You do what you are supposed to, work, take care of yourself and the kids

and they screw you any way they can. there is no american dream. There is no having it all. It's all a sham. All we have is each other.... help each other out and do the best we can. It's so great that you can help each other out like that. It shouldn't be necessary, but it helps.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #5)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:15 AM

120. So don't be home!

 

My daughter benefited tremendously from an engaging preschool/daycare experience. In fact she formed some friendships she still maintains even now that she's 11.

Of course, if you don't have affordable, quality care near there, that may be a problem.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #120)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:19 AM

122. I live in alaska.

 

Daycare is a grand a month.
I won't be home soon. I'm starting back working within a few months, I believe I indicated that before. It's been a long four years.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #122)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:28 AM

123. Good Luck! ...

 

... I work from home most of the time ( I do some travel, or used to, before budget cuts). Even without my daughter here, I know I can feel trapped after a week of it. My wife sometimes wonders why I want to eat out so much. It's because I. HAVE. TO. GET. OUT. OF. HERE!!!!

Best wishes to you!

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #123)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:42 AM

127. Thank you!!

 

I go to the A&W almost everyday for the same reason. Cabin fever.

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Response to Adrahil (Reply #123)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:23 PM

193. The local fast food places

All of the local fast food places recognize me now. I go out to lunch simply to see that I'm not the only adult left on the planet. (Hubby is overseas, so it's just me and the kids right now.)

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Response to bravenak (Reply #122)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:22 PM

190. I wish you the best.

 

I hope you really enjoy it. Would that our workplaces were filled with people who wanted to be there, life would be 1000% easier.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #190)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:50 PM

205. Thank you!

 

I'm going to do a job that I want to do next time with flexibility.

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Response to bravenak (Reply #205)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:01 PM

207. Flexibity is key to feeling like you are treated as a human being. I have flextime situation right

 

now and it brings out the best in people. Am really scared of having to go back to the 9-6 world, which might be happening, unfortunately.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #207)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:05 PM

210. The workday hours don't always work.

 

I'm glad I'm young enough to make a career change, I can decide what I want to do and where I want to work. I will never feel owned by a job again like I was in the past, I am more confident in my abilities than I was before I took the time to be at home with my kids. I've done more real work in the last few years than I had ever done before.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:59 AM

6. Motherhood is not for every woman..

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Response to HipChick (Reply #6)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:34 AM

39. No, of course it isn't. But it's not a lesser choice for those who want to pursue it. nt

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Response to HipChick (Reply #6)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 12:11 PM

265. Of course its not ...

I question looking down on women for which it is a high priority.

This is one of those things I look at as personal choice ... i am neutral on what another woman chooses to do. If it is right for her ... then it is the right decision!

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:00 AM

7. An inferior lifestyle is a life spent not doing what you want.

That goes for men as well as women.

I don't care what is or is not equal "work", the goal should be fulfillment.

Want to get married? Fine. Have kids? Fine. Not have kids? Fine too. Work? Not work? Stay home with the kids?

As long as you can support yourself/family and provide a good environment for whatever beings you bring into this world, no one has any right to judge you.

That's my opinion anyway.

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:08 AM

13. I think that's a great way of putting it..."a life spent not doing what you want"

I will opine that that doesn't mean that every second of every day we are doing exactly what we want to be doing.

There were many moments when my wife didn't want to be cleaning up puke or poop. There were many moments over the last decade that I didn't want to be on the road, traveling, spending nights away from my family.

We all sacrifice, we all have to do things we don't like from time to time--in order to achieve the life we want to achieve.

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:25 AM

58. Yes and what drives these hyper-competitive types?..Why do they need to be "better"

than others, to rank them as "unequal", especially when their standards

seem based strictly on external trappings of "success". ?

Psychologists say there's no such thing as a "superiority" complex..It's

all a compensation for feelings of inferiority.


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Response to whathehell (Reply #58)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:11 PM

211. it is an unfortunate world view- the zero sum game. and as many Moms have that attitude as coworkers

 

at least around here. but instead of accomplishing things, it's about buying them. YIKES!

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #211)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 12:03 PM

264. It's most unfortunate..I'm an old hippie from the '60s and

I am SO glad that I experienced something far better and held onto those values.

It seems many did not or that those values were ignored and/or replaced

by the shitty, selfish values of the post-Reagan era.

It IS encouraging, however, to see many of the Millennials embrace the

the wiser, more humane values of earlier times.

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #7)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:31 PM

151. + eleventy thousand.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:01 AM

8. She's a fool.

'Do people really think that a stay at home mom is really on equal footing with a woman who works and takes care of herself? Thereís no way those two things are the same.'

Who the hell ever said 'those two things are the same?'

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:08 AM

12. A choice is a choice is a choice

Some women really enjoy raising kids. Nothing wrong with that.

Raising the next generation IS important work, laundry and all.

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Response to LadyHawkAZ (Reply #12)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:20 AM

105. That IS the whole point--thank you

Women need to stop beating each other up over exercising different choices. Our fights shouldn't be against each other but instead against a world that would limit our choices and opportunities.

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Response to MissMillie (Reply #105)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 08:52 PM

241. Preach it, sister!

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:09 AM

14. There's so much wrong with that, it's hard to know where to begin

So I'll just list a few things:

(1) No, Amy Glass, whoever you are: having kids, and raising them, is NOT a "super easy task." In fact, I'd say that it's about a billion times harder and takes more intellectual rigor than writing a stupid blog.

(2) Why do there seem to be only two classes that exist in your universe? Childless women who are apparently all doctors or engineers or "business builders" ... and breeders who stay home and iron socks. It's simply not true. Most women who have children are perfectly capable of doing both, either at the same time or serially (I had a postgraduate degree but stayed home until my youngest was in school, then returned to work.)

(3) Your argument is so outdated it doesn't even make sense any more. Ask my gay nephew and his husband about having babies and child-rearing. They seem to do it really well without getting criticized. And they do all kinds of stupid little kid stuff, like making omelets in the shape of teddy bears for breakfast, and jumping around yelling "poopy head." Oh, and all the while being respected professionals. Is it because they're men?

(4) Amy, you sound kind of not so smart. I hate to say that, but it seems true. I hope your scorn for other people's children doesn't come back to bite you later in life: say, when some other's woman's kid is your doctor and decides to misdiagnose you, just for kicks; or when you're old and decrepit and need to have some other woman's kid come make your dinner and change your Depends. Cause they just may be out for some payback. With an attitude like yours, I'd be a bit careful, because other people's kids are going to be the ones running your life at some point.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #14)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 08:40 AM

90. Right on.

She sounds like an insufferable, holier-than-thou creature.

I'm a mom and I'm also a professional and a business owner. I say the "Mom" part was definitely the harder, more demanding task.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:09 AM

15. She's being too provocative.

 

And is just as inflammatory and stupid as those people that write books telling women they should submit to their husbands.

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Response to TheMathieu (Reply #15)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 08:22 AM

88. Agreed

She sounds like part of the "divide and conquer" strategy usually used by Republicons. When I lurked over at the Freeper board some many years ago, it was interesting to see the Mommies vs. Working Women fights. Each side felt that in order to consider themselves valuable, they had to slam the other side's lifestyle.

I hope we're smarter and more compassionate than that.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:12 AM

16. Everybody criticizes her because she spoke against an accepted social

norm. But her attitude is no different than the scores of women and men who feel like if you are not married or a parent

you're life amounts to nothing, especially if you're female. Live your life according to who you are, have the courage to find out, and plan

your life accordingly. Society is not an expert at anything.

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Response to trublu992 (Reply #16)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:43 AM

46. Good post

 

You seem very grounded

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Response to trublu992 (Reply #16)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:46 AM

48. live your life according to who you are and be kind enough not to judge someone who made

different choices. Just because someone made different choices doesn't mean they are lesser for it. I'm a stay at home mom. I don't judge others who don't get married or don't have children. I would hope that people who make different choices would extend me the same courtesy.

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Response to trublu992 (Reply #16)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:41 AM

126. Amen trublu992

Marriage and kids are not the be all and end all. They are new beginnings on a journey - not a brass ring to be sought.

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Response to trublu992 (Reply #16)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 11:12 AM

132. Of course live your life--but don't criticize how others live theirs

Especially don't insult people's intelligence, as this blogger did (and not in a very smart way).

Let's be clear: no one thinks every woman should have a child or want to have a child. Many of my friends never did. (I'm envious of them; they're envious of me.)

The point is: don't judge others and don't proselytize. We live in a society today where every single kind of lifestyle is acceptable. So knock the chip off the shoulder.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:13 AM

17. It's based off a false premise.

Do people really think that a stay at home mom is really on equal footing with a woman who works and takes care of herself? Thereís no way those two things are the same.


Objectively speaking, there is no such thing as equal footing. We have modern social (imaginary) constructs of equality, but this tool wasn't constructed to put down people, it was constructed to help people. Amy Glass is basically complaining that her screwdriver isn't very good at driving nails into wood.

This is the kind of stuff we get when people take our myths as reality. Human rights, borders, authority, justice, etc. are all myths and useful tools. They shouldn't be our masters, or suddenly all sorts of absurdity is OK. There are many violent examples around the world. Madness.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #17)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:21 AM

22. Are there social anthropologist zombies?

 

Objectively speaking, I want to keep all my options open in the afterlife.

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Response to Rex (Reply #22)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:34 AM

40. Aren't all social anthroplogists zombies? nt

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #40)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:38 AM

42. I think they approach discovering the human brain

 

in different ways. At least dead vs. alive.

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Response to Rex (Reply #42)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:41 AM

45. Hehe. nt

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:15 AM

18. I guess it depends on who's DNA is more important ?

If you think, it's better for your children to have a parent at home (and the big if you can afford it) and because of that choice, my child's DNA was carried into the next generation and received any benefit. Then in this situation, the next generations DNA has an advantage. If you believe that working gives you more income to provide for your child, then again the DNA of the next generation gets some benefit. That is what all living things do.

If you don't want children, that is also fine. Take your income, do as you wish , when you wish and enjoy that sweet freedom.

I guess it depends on how you see life, period.

Maybe Ms. Glass should watch some more nature shows. Especially the ones with wild birds, and how and what they do for the next generation. It's not about "winning", it's about making decisions where and how you wish to live your life.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:23 AM

23. Thoughtcatalog is about anything but

That place is about nothing but generating clicks. It is shameless.

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Response to kcr (Reply #23)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:25 AM

26. I hadn't heard of it until I came across this.

Is this screed typical of their site?

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #26)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:30 AM

34. It just seems to be nothing but deliberately provocative trolling

For example, there will be an article written by a spoiled rich brat talking about how the check out girl gave her a dirty look and treated her badly for the designer bag she was carrying. It's just obviously meant to get a rise out of people and nothing more.

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Response to kcr (Reply #34)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:00 AM

65. Oh, yeah, I remember that one!

What a finely crafted crockpot full of troll au jus flambeit that was! C'est Magnifique!

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #26)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:39 AM

43. Yes. It hovers slightly below Delaware's Technical College newspaper.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:27 AM

28. Judging women for the choices they have made.

 

Seems more Huckabee than feminist.

One does not overcome the patriarchy by internalizing and emulating it.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:28 AM

29. she's wrong

career women trashing stay-at-home moms is as bad as the reverse. Both need to understand we have more in common than we do differences, especially in the fight for equality. Amy does a great disservice to all women, promoting this trash.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #29)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:30 AM

33. I think I need you to kick some life choice-trashing ass. nt

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:33 AM

38. I hear it's trendy to have it all for young women now

2-3 kids and a demanding creative job are the items one needs to shine amongst ones peers, at least in the grand metropolis.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #38)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:39 AM

44. Not here...

No kids....ever...

That's what my nephew and nieces are for...spoil them and then hand them back

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Response to HipChick (Reply #44)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:25 AM

107. why do we feel everyone HAS to want kids.

my sister doesn't have kids.... she has five siblings with kids. Not everyone needs to have kids. I am so glad we have a choice. That's what is important. Have kids, don't have kids.... work, stay home.... it's all about choice and we all have a right to be able to make that choice for ourselves.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #38)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:03 AM

66. I hope you are joking.

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Response to flamingdem (Reply #38)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 12:23 AM

254. That sounds like my definition of hell...

I am a big fan of sequenced adulthood -- I got myself a masters degree and a career, I did the full-time outside work thing, and then the be-home parent thing, and then the part-time outside work thing, and maybe someday when my youngest is older I'll be back at the full-time work thing. This has, so far and mostly, worked for me and for my family. I consider myself extraordinarily lucky to have been in a position to make those choices -- many parents don't have the luxury of choice when it comes to working in the world and raising kids at the same time.

I have always been very clear for myself that I do not want "it all" -- how would I keep up with it, and when would I sleep?

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:44 AM

47. Sounds like an judgmental person who doesn't know what it takes to raise a family.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:51 AM

50. 'The Hand That Rocks The Cradle Rules The World'!

What an idiot to so diminish the role of mothers in the raising of children who will one day be in charge of this country. I guess she thinks day care centers and paid baby sitters can do a better of job of preparing the future generation than a mother who has more of a vested interest, can do.

The most important job in the world is to raise the future generation.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #50)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:27 AM

68. "The most important job in the world is to raise the future generation. "

That's the fact. I had a career, then married and had kids. Now, after having had 20 some years of career time, I get to be a stay at home dad. My wife now has her career. As for me, I do the dishes, the floors, the laundry... yuk, it drives me crazy the repetitive stuff over and over. But then the kids need help with their homework, wow, I love it, I get to decide what to make for dinner and the kids help, I drive them to their activities and we talk the talk.. it's great and wonderful and awful and boring and repetitive and I wouldn't have it any other way.

One day, I'm folding clothes and come across a sweater that I have always enjoyed seeing my daughter wear but now it's too small. I look at it for a moment and just sit there... and I realize what an honor it is to be able to fold it for the last time before putting it away... because my daughter is growing up, and I have watched her and her brother, and have been able to influence them in ways only a stay at home can. There's a spiritual plain, existential joy of passing on my life to my children and their future.

Years before during my career, I would never have noticed.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #50)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:04 PM

144. +1000!! And anyone who says it's not "work" to stay at home and raise a family

has never done it.. This is such bullshit, it actually sounds like it might have been sarcastic. And it it wasn't then Amy glass is an idiot who has probably never done any actual labor in her life.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:04 AM

53. A follow-up post from Amy Glass (whoever she is)

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #53)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 05:01 AM

70. She sounds like

Someone who will probably never be able to sustain a long term relationship with anyone unless she eventually grows up.

A very superficial kind of life.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Reply #53)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 06:38 AM

77. She sounds very 'childfree'. nt

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Response to cinnabonbon (Reply #77)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:40 PM

154. I'm child free and would never spout the crap she is spouting. To me she just sounds

like an ignorant person.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #154)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:49 PM

156. Maybe I just meet the bad apples

The group I was familiar with was very into casual misogyny when it came to women having kids, among other things. It made me stay away. I'm glad to hear not everyone are like that, because the idea of remaining without kids isn't a bad one.

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Response to cinnabonbon (Reply #156)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:05 PM

160. And I have certainly been acquainted with groups that were very critical of

women who choose not to have kids, though of course I would never assume that everyone is like that.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #160)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:14 PM

163. I have met people who are very critical

indeed, when women don't conform to the ideas of what a 'proper' women should want. There are a lot of unpleasant stereotypes.

Would you happen to recommend some places on the net where there's a good childfree presence? I would love to get familiar with some places like that to listen and read more, so I can get past the misogyny-flavoured one in my past.

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Response to cinnabonbon (Reply #163)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:21 PM

165. It has never occurred to me to look for places on the net with a good child free presence, because

I don't even know what that means. So I can't help you there.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #165)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:31 PM

171. Fair enough.

I meant a message board (or similar, like a website) where childfree ideas are openly discussed, but where misogyny is not tolerated.

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Response to cinnabonbon (Reply #171)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:48 PM

176. Again, I don't know what "childfree ideas" are. I also don't see those women who

do look down on their childless peers as being misogynist. I see them as women who need to impose their view on others, or women who are not comfortable with their own decisions.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #176)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:05 PM

184. Again, fair enough.

But I don't know how you found the label without also seeing what issues were spoken a lot about.

When I talk about misogynistic ideas, I am not talking about just looking down on people. It's human to feel exasperated with how society treats people with children differently. Totally normal.

What I reacted to was about calling mothers "MOO"s, implying they are cows for having children. I was also disappointed in what I saw was dehumanizing kids with disabilities and mocking their parents for having them, being against public breastfeeding... They also thought that the main reason women had children was because they were lonely, and women were pretty worthless if they were stay-at-home mothers. I am not saying you believe any of these things, but the group who used your label certainly did, and they soured my first impression of it.

So that community of childfree people didn't feel very welcoming to me as a woman, despite most of the other members being women as well. It was incredibly disappointing, to be honest. I was really hoping to find a better place than that.

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Response to cinnabonbon (Reply #184)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:14 PM

187. And you assumed that all women who are child free think this way?

It isn't a label I found. Child free is what I am.

You seem to have found a group of loons and decided they represent those of us who are child free. I can't help you with that.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #187)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:24 PM

195. It seems that I did.

Which is partly why I asked you if you had recs so I could remedy that impression. I figured since you're CF you'd know where to go.

If they've co-opted the label and perverted it, then I definitely apologize for offending. I do not think that all childfree think like they do, but my experience CFdom is different than yours.

Would you say this woman doesn't sound like she's childfree?

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Response to cinnabonbon (Reply #195)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:36 PM

197. Seriously, I have no idea what you are talking about. "CFdom?" My not having children

means I should know of web sites that would undo your impressions of this group of loons that you found?

As I say, it seems to me that you have found some group that calls themselves "childfree." And now you seem to be thinking that those of us who are child free should be able to explain them to you.

Child free people are not part of a big organization. We are people who don't have children. I can't explain the group that you had problems with to you any more than you can explain to me why the Quiver-full mothers have dozens of kids.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #197)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:48 PM

203. Well yes, that is the point.

There are many groups and websites on the net that is used as gathering places for people who call themselves 'childfree'. They have slang within the group. They basically have their own culture. - But fair enough, I did assume something about you that wasn't true. I figured you had looked for childfree websites on the net, the way I look for things that affects me on the net.

I do know why the quiverful mothers have a lot of kids. I follow ex-quiverful women's blogs.

I am not asking you to explain yourself to me, though. I said that this woman in the OP sounded like she was childfree. That is because she reminded me of the culture I am familiar with, and I noticed warning signs. If you aren't part of that culture, then obliviously that doesn't apply to being child free as opposed to being childfree.

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Response to cinnabonbon (Reply #203)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:32 PM

227. I'm familiar with one

But their journey of how they arrived there - is a very sad one. Most of these couples are a minimum 100K in debt from their child free journey. The pain they have experienced - seriously cinna - you don't want to go there. And most of them would tell you - the biggest 'woo' (god I typed that with all of the back and forth over it lately :doh2: at DU) is the Fertility Industry. You could get familiar with it - but they tend to lock out people who have not ended up child free. Try googling - Childless By Choice - that would be better than child free - because most of those 'child free' communities are online support groups.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #197)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:01 PM

208. Anyway, more importantly

I appreciate your patience with me, Squinch. I know it's not easy when it's personal. I am not happy with being ignorant about this anymore than you are about having to spell things out for me. I don't like it, because when I am not as informed as I should be I end up hurting people's feelings.

But I honestly don't know where to begin, here. Some reading and reflection is in order, but what if I just end up falling into these dark pits again?

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:07 AM

55. Some need their 15 minutes of fame so badly ...

that they are willing to achieve it by taking a shit in public. This person is either trolling or has a personality problem, probably both. A pitying glance and walk on past.

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #55)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:35 AM

69. this

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #55)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 06:19 PM

234. You've nailed it perfectly

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #55)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 01:39 AM

258. Precisely! nt

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:18 AM

57. A lot of men romanticize fatherhood

 

but the second there are too many dirty diapers, they suddenly don't understand taking out the garbage.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:35 AM

59. She's a troll. Just walk on by, stifling a yawn

It's the worst thing you can do to a troll.

They thrive on shitstorms and if you feed the trolls, you get buried in troll shit.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #59)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:57 AM

64. Warpy's giving us pearls, here.

 

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:35 AM

60. Oh sure you can be a cog in the corporate machine

You may think you are important but the fact is that when you leave you will be replaced. And they won't miss you for long.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:41 AM

61. So what she is saying

is that anything inherently or traditionally woman is worthless, and a woman is only worth something if she participates in the world the same way men do? Yeah, it's a tad more than 'wordplay' holding women back, that's for sure.

I'm just going to disagree with her and leave it at that.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:44 AM

62. She's trollin' like a boss.

Either that or she's serious, in which case she's outed herself for all time as a massively obnoxious turd.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:55 AM

63. Sounds like an extremely naive young woman who has a lot to learn about life.

The province of the young is to make bold, rash statements. the province of the old is to teach them patience and understanding.

Someone needs to teach Ms. Glass much about patience and understanding.

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Response to last1standing (Reply #63)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:06 PM

242. When I was younger --

and when I say "younger" I mean 5 to 7 years ago -- I was so certain marriage and motherhood was a trap for young women.

Now I am very happily married. I was laid-off a little over a year ago and work only part-time now. Part of this is by design so my husband's school aged sister can spend her days with me while her father works (her mother passed a couple of years ago). I feel as if I've become a stay-at-home mom of sorts and I love it. I don't feel trapped. I get to see this beautiful young life growing in front of my eyes (and no pregnancy!).

Lover Boy and I have no plans for children of our own but I'm very happy with my circumstances. I feel more empowered than anything I could have imagined.

Assuming the article isn't simply seeking to incite outrage I can't condemn the author too much because I was probably just as obnoxious. Now I can only shake my head as I feel that pang in my heart at the thought of what I might have given up and the heaviness of thinking how senseless it all seems within the space of a few short years.

So, yeah, your post leapt out at me.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:22 AM

67. As a woman who decided not to have children,

I say lil Miss Amy is full of shit. Being a GOOD parent is the most important thing there is. There is no higher calling.

Not everyone is cut out to do the 9-5 thing. I wasn't. Unfortunately, because I had to support myself (and sometimes my spouse, as he has done for me -- see? that's how that marriage thing works), I had no choice. Running a home can be a full-time job as well. Now that I'm down to part-time I do virtually all the housework, most of the laundry, all the banking, all of the budgeting, all the bill paying and I save my family tons of money by cooking from scratch and doing home canning. All of that contributes to the bottom line just as much as a job in which I bring home a paycheck. Now, add to that children? I don't know how they do it.

Lil Miss Amy sounds like she's about 23 and still wet behind the ears.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 05:52 AM

71. She may think she's a feminist, but look at what she's doing

Last edited Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:12 AM - Edit history (1)

Basically it's a woman devaluing other women's life choices. Yay. It's not as if the unpaid labour women do in the home is devalued already!

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Response to cinnabonbon (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 06:14 AM

72. She's also devaluing women's work

Working in the home is seen as not having value precisely because it has traditionally been women's work. Note that many poorly paid occupations, like teaching, are traditionally associated with women. Child rearing is similar, though it is entirely unpaid labor.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #72)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 06:33 AM

75. I mean, it sounds like she's totally internalized every

harmful idea the patriarchy's thrown at her when it comes to work and value. I agree that she's devaluing women's work in this, too. After all, the jobs she implies have most worth is the most male-dominated ones.

Professions like teaching is definitely women oriented. I find it interesting how many male professors I've met compared to female, though. You'd think it would be more evenly spread.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #72)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:01 PM

143. This moron took it a step further and doubled down in her latest post

 

She said the right thing to do is find poor people to do your shitty tasks for you (laundry, house cleaning, nanny, etc.). Sounds like a rich bitch with a silver spoon in her ass.

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #143)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:38 PM

153. I just saw. Yikes. I take back what I said about her being a feminist.

And while I agree with you that what she is suggesting is shitty and ignorant, I wish you hadn't used a gendered slur to describe her. There are so many good insults around that aren't gendered!

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Response to cinnabonbon (Reply #153)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:46 PM

155. Fair enough. Poor choice of words. Sorry.

 

should have said "She is a probably a rich piece of shit that thinks others existence is to serve her."

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #155)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:53 PM

158. Thank you so much for the apology!

!

And I wholeheartedly agree, she sounds completely unbearable. I mean, what kind of mindset is that?

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #143)


Response to Agschmid (Reply #192)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:39 PM

199. First of all, I did NOT call another DU'er a moron

 

Unless the author of the article posts here. Even then, I did not call the DU'er a moron. I called the author a moron. Or, is your position that all Chimpy has to do is create a DU account and then no one can call him names?

Second, I apoligized for the bitch word being used above. But, thanks for the previously unasked for lecture.

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #192)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:42 PM

200. I think that joeglow3 was

referring to Amy Glass, not a DUer.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #72)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:33 PM

229. +100

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Response to cinnabonbon (Reply #71)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 08:50 AM

94. Great post. nt

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 06:18 AM

73. She's an anti-feminist, actually. A defeatist.

I know many high achieving women with husbands and children. Some of them even have husbands at home.

Yet she says: "You will never have the time, energy, freedom or mobility to be exceptional if you have a husband and kids."

Why doesn't she give the same advice to men? Don't have a family or you'll never be exceptional?

But the idea that most people can or should be exceptional is ludicrous.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #73)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:14 PM

223. I thought feminism was all about unlocking women from a forced path.

What's wrong with staying home with the kids? I know many women who are fantastic stay at home moms and are incredibly fulfilled by it. Should they be forced to give up their happiness and join the workforce for "the cause"? Unlocked from one path to be locked into another?

Honestly, at the moment, I think the greater challenge we face as a society is acceptance of the stay at home father. We've gotten to the point where in many families it is the woman with the greater interest in working and greater earning power. And many men nowadays are less interested in nurturing careers and more interested in nurturing children/home life . Yet this arrangement is still looked down upon, to nobody's benefit.

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #223)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:33 PM

228. I know a family that worked very well for.

The husband stayed home when the children were small and the mom, who was a physician, worked half time.

They appeared to have a great life. But they weren't trying to be exceptional.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 06:21 AM

74. The problem is not staying at home, the problem is perpetual dependency.

People, men or women, should first think about being able to support themselves, should it ever become necessary, and work to enable themselves to do so. From such a starting ground then one can choose to enter into marriage, or not.

When people build their entire lives around the premise that someone else will provide for them, this is problematic.

As far as I understand, this is commonplace even in many regions of the world that aren't considered beacons of progress in terms of women's rights: A woman will strive to obtain higher education before marriage, in case she ever needs it.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 06:36 AM

76. I think this is fine...

... if that is how you see it.

However, it isn't being a mom that keeps most people from being "exceptional", by definition most people are not exceptional, including this author.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 06:57 AM

79. I am stuck on the "exceptional" part.

Everybody can't be "exceptional" or that would become the new normal, and nobody would be an 'exception".

And her idea of what makes a woman "exceptional" seems pretty messed up.

Different choices are different. They don't need to be ranked.

She sounds young and naive. Painfully like something I might have gone around spouting when I was younger and was all about trashing other women to elevate myself in my own eyes.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 06:58 AM

80. Both of my sisters are wives and moms...

I'm not. I'm a professor. I wouldn't trade my life for theirs ever. What they do is hard as hell.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 07:18 AM

84. Holier than thou...

 

Last edited Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:15 AM - Edit history (1)

... and of course her path and decisions are the right ones.

She seems like she is trying to justify something to herself...

Edit : blog is emotionally manipulative , intentionally inflammatory and is a cry for attention and relevance.

Somebody is trying to get booked as a talking head and I give 50/50 she really believes it

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 08:36 AM

89. I was a mom, and then I got a career in later life

It's possible to be both a mom AND have an exceptional career. Why does she think the two are mutually exclusive?

And yes, being a mom SHOULD be celebrated. The mere fact you brought forth spawn doesn't make you a mom. It's the fact you love and care for a little human being that makes you a mom.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 08:47 AM

92. Personally I think she is full of herself

and I've had the privilege to be in both situations.

For many years I worked in the legal field. Single, long hours, travel, responsibility and large paycheck (lots of OT in the 90s - I was a senior trial paralegal supervising cases).

I got married in my early 30s and attempted to work with a baby - that was hellish. I was trying to keep it to 9-5 (I moved to recruiting) and had to keep up with everything at home as well.

After the 2nd baby I retired. My spouse's income was high enough for us to manage and I was tired of trying to do 3 jobs myself (work, take care of baby, and house).

Now I stay home with my kids and have a cleaning service come in anyway - I spend a lot of time driving my kids to various activities.


In my travels I saw plenty of jobs which involved sitting in a cube, chatting with co-workers and making work last through the day - involving no critical thinking whatsoever. I put more effort into organizing my kids' sports and activities. I will say I'm glad I had the experience of doing both because I did have a number of years doing exactly what I wanted to do. I would even go so far as to say everyone should live on their own and support themselves in an apartment for a few years before getting married. If nothing else it gives you the confidence to see that you can do it. You can live independently and take care of yourself - which is important to know if you're going to have children (and I mean this advice for men and women).

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 08:47 AM

93. well, as a stay at home mom I suppose I am biased.

I decided that it was cheaper for me to stay home rather than go to work just to hand the money over to a sitter. I don't want some stranger raising my kids. I worked for a couple of years after my oldest was born.... we were broke, and broker. We had NO money. now I stay home and my husband works. I do believe I am doing something valuable and I contribute in other ways. Sure, laundry isn't glamorous, but having clean clothes is always a plus. And raising three girls to be smart, independent and self confident I believe is important too. And I won't think any less of them if they become a Stay at home mom too. But it's called choice. I raise them to know they can be whatever they want to be and I will love them and support them. They feel safe and happy knowing they have a loving home with their parents and can reach for the stars.

There are always people that are going to think what I do isn't important. As if I just stay home watching soap operas all day. I went to college for english and communications. I realize that what I have learned is now outdated. And in some ways it is hard not being around other adults. But I think it is worth it to make sure my kids have everything they need. Because they didn't ask to be here... and I will always put them first. And I think that is worthy, and as ordinary as it may be to some, it makes me feel like I am making my mark on the world.

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Response to ejpoeta (Reply #93)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 08:51 AM

95. I actually like laundry -

at some point I will have to teach my kids to fold clothes so they aren't clueless when they get to college. I find hiding in the laundry room very relaxing

I enjoyed your post. Your life sounds very much like my own.

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Response to TBF (Reply #95)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 08:55 AM

96. Yay, laundry! It's a stress reliever

I always hear how people "hate" ironing. I love it. When my job gets me too stressed out (it involves creation of intellectual property) I go into the laundry room and iron linen napkins. Stupid, I know, because who irons napkins? But I sometimes work out my knottiest creative problems while ironing.

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Response to mainer (Reply #96)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:00 AM

100. we all have our things. I don't iron. Hate it. I don't mind doing laundry myself

but I hate socks... sorting socks sucks. Mostly because my kids seem to think stuffing them under couches and in corners is a great way to ensure I have no matching socks to sort. I don't mind doing laundry.... I have a washing machine and dryer to do most of the work. and I can fold clothes while I watch my crime shows I like to watch. I have met plenty of folks who don't know how to do laundry.... when we used to go to the laundromat it was very interesting. stuffing all the clothes from a three load washer into one dryer. I did try to tell them. Oh well, some have to learn the hard way.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 08:56 AM

97. Yeah, it is a fucking shame that 3 billion years of evolution have made females into mothers.

I imagine this young woman's mother is quite proud of the self-centered thing she spent 19 plus years nurturing. Personally, I hope she never reproduces as we do not need more people like her in this world.

Housework vs. "real work." What a condescending loser.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 08:57 AM

99. This is the DUMBEST argument out there!!!!!!

They use this topic to pit women against women. And people fall for it. Women who stay at home are equally as important as women who work. Working women help stay at home moms and stay at home moms help working women. To think there is a difference in the value or integrity of work is absurd. They both contribute to the fundamental well being of our society. Stop falling for this DUMB argument. Its non productive and just plain DUMB.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:06 AM

101. Being a father is more important to me than anything ...

I might do in my "career". And while it lasted, being a husband was also more important. I don't apologize for that and I don't think that makes me something less than a more career-oriented man. I'm proud of the choices I made and I would gladly make them again.

Amy Glass sounds like a prideful woman who isn't intelligent enough to realize that she doesn't understand people who have chosen a different lifestyle from the one she chose.

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Response to dawg (Reply #101)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:25 AM

106. And if she's never had kids, then how can she compare?

She's saying the grass is greener on her side, but she's never been on the other side of the fence, so she can't possibly compare.

I'm with you. After a lifetime as both a career woman and a mom, being a mom brings me the most joy and satisfaction.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:18 AM

103. It's poorly worded

The most important day of my life was not the day I got married.

Granted - I got married at 39 -


But it kind of discounts my champagne campaigns, crazy loves, career moves, education, and a wonderful beautiful circle of women that are my 'family' -


To say my life didn't start until the day I put on a $3900 dress!


It's okay to resent the outside world saying - You were a nothing or ARE a nothing until you get married and have a kid.

It's not okay to denigrate another woman's choice to make her white wedding the single most important day of her life.

She chose that - some of us chose adventure. Neither is right or wrong.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:18 AM

104. This person...

Obvious does not know what she is talking about. Her post shows a depth of thought equal to shallow end of the pool. Raising children is a very difficult task and one to be commended if done in a manner that that child grows up to be a productive and caring member of society.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:28 AM

108. Clueless

She has no idea what she's talking about.

Married women, committed to raising a family AND in most cases working, have no easy task.

She just has no idea what she's talking about.

Ignorant statement.

Frankly, it's best she doesn't have children. She couldn't handle it.

And I'm speaking as a father and husband.

My wife is great.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:30 AM

109. Well, at least she's not one of those people who act like their pets are the same as children

 

"My daughter has chickenpox."

"Yeah, well, I had to take my dog to the vet the other d---"

"Shut the fuck up."

Oooof. They're the worst.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:38 AM

110. Unknown Feminist Blogger Amy Glass Amazingly Trolls Entire World with Anti-Mom Screed

Andy Warhol would be so proud of Amy Glass. The blogger-turned-vessel-of-hatred penned a quick, vitriolic screed two weeks ago, entitled ďI Look Down On Young Women With Husbands And Kids And Iím Not Sorry,Ē which caught fire on the internet, spawned countless bitterly parodic responses, made its way all the way onto international cable news this past weekend, and has now even managed to clutter up the Twitter timeline of Canadian freelancer and Calgary Herald editor Amy Louise Glass.
...
Glass emailed a statement to Fox & Friends, but she hasnít turned up in any verifiable form as yet. For all anyone knows, she could be a cousin of Marcia Brady paramour George Glass, or even George himself. The whole kerfuffle has even caused freelance writer and Calgary Herald copy editor Amy Louise Glass to update her Twitter bio to read ďNot the Amy Glass who blogs for Thought Catalog.Ē

The odd thing, though, is the conservative reaction to Glass, whose handful of blog posts are relentless criticisms of feminism, and which generally adhere to the popular conservative complaint that if everyone is special, no one is special. Glass even elaborates on that merit-based theme in her followup post, and perfectly crystallizes the argument in the headline to another piece entitled ďHillary Clinton Has Given Just As Much To This World As The Stay At Home Wife In My 11am Yogalates Class.Ē

Whoever she(?) is, Glass has caused a major stir with a minimal amount of effort, and managed to become the convenient vessel for conservative rage at a brand of feminism that exists only in Amy Glassí virtual mind. The circumstances of stay-at-home motherhood, as even the vitriolic responses to Glass demonstrate, have more to do with privilege than merit. We would all prefer a world in which every mother, or father, had the luxury to decide whether to stay at home with their kids.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/unknown-feminist-blogger-amy-glass-amazingly-trolls-entire-world-with-anti-mom-screed/


I think that sums it up nicely.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:43 AM

111. Your question misses the point.

The point is that, unless they come with a protected life-long trust fund and a pre-nup cleaving that fund only to them, house wives are dependents with less power than their spouses.

While some men may not take advantage of that, the fact remains that it makes women vulnerable. What are the stats on the divorce rate in the United States, and where are these women left when their husband leaves them for someone younger and more challenging?

There is an inherent imbalance of power in relationships where only one person is making the living and that very imbalance of power does not bode well for long-term relationship health.

The issue is not about you or your wife, and neither are my comments. If you and your wife are happy with your choices, and you stay with her and remain faithful in every way to the marriage, more power to you both. The bigger picture, however, remains.

I think the same thing can be said for house husbands, except that they may find it easier to re-enter the working force after some time gone.

In an idealistic utopia, one person working could easily support a family, the non-working person would have equal rights to everything, and anybody who wanted a job at a living wage could have one without the cutthroat, desperate competition for decent jobs. Then one parent could stay home and the other could work fewer hours and be home more, or both could work part-time and both be home more, and families would be healthier. I'm an idealist, so I will keep fighting for just that. Meanwhile, though, I can't ignore the reality. Having personally failed at two longer-term marriages, 10 and 12 years each, I'm relieved that I have some skills to support myself, having attended college a little at a time over may years until done, while working part-time, and then full time, and raising kids. Nobody now, or ever, has had MY back financially, and nobody ever will.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #111)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 09:47 AM

112. This is beautiful

Nobody now, or ever, has had MY back financially, and nobody ever will.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #111)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:09 AM

115. Yep.

 

Many spouses are financially abusive of the non working spouse. I just turned down a good job making more than my significant other. I have kept up my job skills over the last few years that I've been off the market and kept up with my former coworkers so that I'll have references. I don't like asking him for money, because I've never not worked for my own money. He's been kinda stingy over the years so I told him last month that I'm going back to work. Now that I got a couple of job offers ( selling insurance ) he has no problem offering me money.

I will never depend on somebody else to take care of business for me ever again. People get real shitty when they think they have power over you. I did tentatively accept an offer this week, at Allstate, starting once I pass my exam. I'll never get over him treating me like a child as far as money is concerned. It pisses me off because I usually make more than him and was never like that when I was head of household and he needed me to pay most of the bills when he was out of work. It's amazing how generous he is now that I told him to keep his money and fuck off he can stay at home with the kids if he doesn't want a sitter or daycare, I'm going back to work.

I learned a valuable lesson on how people are. I'm glad. I needed a good dose of reality.


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Response to LWolf (Reply #111)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:19 PM

164. Excellent points in this post

This would make a better subject for an article than the screed in the OP.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #111)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:40 PM

174. THANK YOU LWOLF! She did specify YOUNG mothers,

Whatever else in her scattered post about backpacking or whatever, the actual reality for all women, as you've spelled out so well, is that if they become dependent without developing some kind of skillset before having children, they are putting themselves and their children at risk.

Those are just facts. I don't look down on these women, and I think its very ugly to do so. I just hope they've considered the possibility that they might someday need to support themselves and their children, and I hope they don't end up in that situation unprepared. That's all.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:04 AM

114. Is this another "Do as I say, or you're a sheep" blog?

I support her right to be child-free just as I support the right for a woman to get married or have children whenever she wants without judgment.

She should mind her own business.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:11 AM

116. Wow, does she ever sound like a jerk....

 

... there's no reason women and men can't get married and have kids and STILL have exceptional lives. She's full of shit. My wife is married and we have an awesome 11-year-old daughter. She also has a PhD, is currently the director of graduate studies for her department at her university, and is a recognized leader in her academic field.

I also have a demanding professional career. We share household and parenting duties.

Can't be exceptional with a husband and kids? Bullshit.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:13 AM

117. As a man married to a successful woman and have made a family together I say

 

Bwaahhaahhaaahahhhaaahhahhaa!!!!

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:15 AM

119. A lame attempt at self-justification at the expense of others.

Individuals make choices. That's there prerogative. Telling people that their choices make them less valuable is an error in logic. Ms. Glass is incorrect, as long as the people she denigrates made their own choices.

As for me, I make the choice not to read any more of her writings.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:16 AM

121. Good grief!



Maybe when she grows up her opinions will be better thought out. Or not.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:32 AM

124. I have been incredibly fortunate

Every year I spend about 2/3rds as a full time working mother and 1/3 staying home with the kiddos so I get to see both sides. While working I still do all the same things I do with my kids while off work: stay up all night with them when they have colds, help with homework, make lunches, drive them to playdates and park and swim lessons, make clothes for dolls and have imaginary sword battles with my son. Sometimes my non working friends will make comments about how working parentss miss out and neglect their children but they don't understand that being a parent never stops while working. No one is filling the role of mom while I work. No one is cleaning my place, or mothering my kids. I'm doing both jobs! Sometimes my working friends will make comments about how parenting denies one the time to truly devote oneself to work. Nothing could be farther from the truth. As a parent I'm more motivated than ever to excel at work because my children depend on me. When I get a few months off our schedule slows down and is less hectic. Being a stay at home parent feels like a vacation compared to time spent working. We all have a little more time on our hands. And it is during that time that I can work on my own personal artwork. The idea that being a stay at home parent means not accomplishing much at work or advancing oneself is wrong. The idea that working means youre not being a quality parent is wrong. People say those things to justify their own lifestyle choices but the reality is different.

It's a first world problem anyway. Most don't have the choice of not working whether they are a parent or not.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:36 AM

125. Whatever happened to respecting others' life decisions?


I doubt that Amy Glass is in 9th grade anymore; she ought to cool it with the Mean Girl act.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #125)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:51 AM

128. +1 n/t

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:56 AM

130. Many stay at home mothers are ashamed because of people like Amy Glass

 

Part of my job is asking about my new clients' job titles. If they're young homemakers, they always seem ashamed of the title. You know, looking down, mumbling, screwing up their faces, all signs of clear discomfort while admitting that they stay at home.

Extremists like Amy Glass have gotten to them. It's a shame. No one should feel ashamed for having and raising kids.

F*** Amy Glass and her ilk.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #130)


Response to LittleBlue (Reply #130)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:55 PM

216. First you post an OP how black men are ashamed to be black in the AA forum, now women are? WOW.

 

Interesting.

Housework is unpaid and undervalued by society- and Glass had nothing to do with it. She is actually just holding up a mirror to attitudes that are already out there.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #216)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:04 PM

219. I knew it!

 

Someone would defend this crap. And yep, you prove me right.

All I see here is bitterness

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #219)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:08 PM

220. No one is defending your shame based crap- not even you. It's pretty transparent.

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #220)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:09 PM

221. What are you still doing here?

 

There are young women out there getting "colonized" by men as we speak.

What are you waiting for? Go save them!

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #221)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:11 PM

222. I have no idea WTF you are taking about, and I'm pretty sure that you don't either. Shame, that.

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #222)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:19 PM

224. It's a shame you defend the author who is bashing mothers

 

with her whackjob drivel.

But I expected nothing less.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #224)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:29 PM

226. You were the one positing that young mothers (like black men- according to your OP) are ashamed....

 

I just called out what FLAMBAIT/ TOTAL NONSENSE that idea is. Just like the thread where you had hoped to find agreement that black men are ashamed of being black- you aren't finding a single SAHM here ashamed of that choice.
You ashamed, bro? Misery loves company.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #226)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:35 PM

230. You ashamed, bro?

 

Some massive projection going on here

I don't know what you're on about. You're the one defending the shaming of women in this thread.

Housework is unpaid and undervalued by society- and Glass had nothing to do with it. She is actually just holding up a mirror to attitudes that are already out there.


Apologist

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #230)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:49 PM

231. you post about african american men, and now moms being ashamed.Happily your suggestion was rejected

 

and even condemned in the AA forum, and we aren't seeing anyone ashamed of their choice to stay home with kids here either.
So yeah, I was pointing out your obsession/ projection on this shame issue. I have only known social conservatives to be so obsessed with doling out shame this way. Again, it is a notable obsession you have with that concept.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #224)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:58 PM

232. You have misread that. Betty ellen was not defending the author.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #232)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 06:16 PM

233. not at all, I was actually just commenting on this "shame" nonsense. because it seems like these

 


"shame bombs" are being dropped some pretty interesting places. someone is working that meme pretty hard, LOL.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #233)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 06:21 PM

235. And it's a little incomprehensible how he read that as you defending the article, but

he seemed to have run with that...

...maybe it's excitement over the Super Bowl...

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Response to Squinch (Reply #235)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 07:04 PM

238. it is just deflecting.

 

someone is being very coy about spreading some stinky ideas round here. Shame, my patooty.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #238)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 07:27 PM

239. "Shame, my patooty."

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 11:02 AM

131. Can't say

she's right...can't say she's wrong.

It's what she thinks.

And really, why should what she thinks have any bearing on how the rest of us choose to live our lives?

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 11:16 AM

134. I don't look down on anyone.

Feminism is about choices. Too bad this blog poster is too high up on her horse to realize that. If it weren't for the dedicated feminists who came before, this Amy Glass would not have the freedom to choose any lifestyle.

Maybe she needs to get out of the judging business and into the compassion business.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 11:19 AM

135. well, she makes the point that motherhood is an average decision

 

which it is. it is not the exceptional decision, which is to be child free and pursue a career relentlessly.

I don't look down at mothers/fathers/anyone else, but I don't think a stay at home mother is making some sort of exceptional choice.

"You will never have the time, energy, freedom or mobility to be exceptional if you have a husband and kids.": this statement mightt be mean but it's not inaccurate.

Again, i disagree that these choices are to be looked down upon. We all have different things we want to do with our lives.

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #135)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 11:40 AM

138. Some women do not have the choice at all, in either direction.

I could not have been a stay-at-home mom if I had wanted to. The numbers didn't support it. As it is, I am the family "jackpot" (or the family crackpot; depends on who you ask). I also happen to think I've stood as a reasonably good role model for my daughter.

The problem is that many women simply do not have choices. But I sure as hell don't judge any woman fortunate enough to be in a position to make them.

I also think it is incumbent upon us to respect all work. I'm not in a position to say one kind of work is of greater worth than another kind of work. How do you quantify that?

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #135)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:16 PM

188. yes, and I think it's an interesting thing to consider that for many women, their passage from

 

puberty through child bearing is the only time they are ever celebrated- and it is never about just them. From Quinceria or "coming out to society" (and all the various cultural version of the coming of age) to engagement parties and "showers" it is all about celebrating taking that very traditional women's role in society. For too many young women, the only way they can imagine being celebrated, or even tolerated, LOL, by their family and peers, is to be on that "track". Odd that we don't really celebrate or encourage young men along those same lines. They get what? A "woe is me, my life is over" bachelor party. Always struck me as kind of odd.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 11:27 AM

136. I'm a child free single woman over thirty.

I don't look down on anyone who is married and who have kids. I don't. Lots of family and friends are married and have kids.

What I find is the reverse. I mean it was less than a month ago I was asked point blank at a family function if I was going to be an "Old Maid" and a week later the comment was made in a conversation that "if I had children" I would understand.

Seriously? I don't think being married and having children is in any way inferior. However, there is soooo much in this society that seems to reinforce this message that if you aren't married and don't have kids YOU are inferior.

Just look at the media messages - movies, tv shows, ads, magazines, religion, politics, etc.. predominantly have inherent assumptions that one is married or searching to get married and that families consist have having children.

Can we all just respect each others choices life?

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 11:47 AM

139. I would love to be a stay-at-home mom

but unfortunately I can't. Back when we were discussing adopting a child my husband and I determined that it made more economic sense for him to stop working and stay home with her and then go back when she went to school full time. Well, about a week later he came home and told me he'd quit his job. That was 13 years ago. When I begged him to find a job when she was 6 or 7 and I was having trouble paying the mortgage and the bills, he refused. When we lost the house and I had to declare bankruptcy he refused to find a job. When we moved from shitty rental to shitty rental because we didn't have enough money for a nice place, he refused to find a job. Finally he agreed to work as a cafeteria worker in the school system. That lasted 8 weeks. Then he quit. He got a temporary job for 3 weekends at the local Ren Faire a few years ago and was asked back for the full run the next year. On his second weekend he got into a fight with one of the parking people and was let go. Then he found out his knee will probably need to be replaced in the medium future and that he has diabetes. Added to that our daughter, now in middle school, plays an instrument and has to be taken to lessons and practices. Now whenever we discuss him getting a job, it's more a whine about how much he has to do and that he can't find time to get a job. I don't look down on stay-at-home moms, I envy the shit out of them.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)


Response to Name removed (Reply #140)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:58 PM

159. If you choose to raise a child, then fine. That is certainly an important thing to do. But

there is no reason to suggest that the person "shuffling papers at a desk" in the pursuit of their career (why the quotes?) is not making a valuable contribution as well.

To make that suggestion is to be just as shortsighted and ignorant as the author of the article.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #159)


Response to Name removed (Reply #168)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:40 PM

175. It is nice that you put raising children at the top of the important job list. But others do not,

because for them, it simply isn't.

She has decided that taking care of herself is one of her paramount goals. You have decided that helping others makes your job "noteworthy." Right up to that point, you are both doing fine.

It all falls apart when you say that her taking care of herself is not noteworthy and when she says that you helping your children is not important. With those statements, you are both presuming to make choices for someone else who does not share your priorities. That's destructive.

The point is that we need to respect, and not denigrate, the choices that others make even if they differ from our own.


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Response to Name removed (Reply #140)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:27 PM

167. welcome to DU!

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 11:58 AM

141. Childfree, so yeah...worked for me, not for everyone n/t

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:22 PM

147. Astonishing quote from her post:

You will never have the time, energy, freedom or mobility to be exceptional if you have a husband and kids.


So only single, childless women can be exceptional.

We need to check in with her in 20 years and see what she says.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:23 PM

148. Amy Glass wrote just the month before that a wife/Mom shares the biggest burden of raising the kids

I looked back at another piece she wrote in Dec. It seems as if she can't make up her mind, acknowledging their work in one, then slamming SAHMs as not being worthy in another.

She obviously is searching for something and lashing out against other women who made a different choice in life. That certainly isn't feminism. Her opinion sounds childish, my job is more important than your job, I work harder than you, you took the path of least resistance blah blah. I can't wrap my head around her jealousy of baby showers or wedding "parties". There is no one stopping her from having a celebration for her friend's promotions or accomplishments.

SMH I feel sorry for her.

I have to ask, what is she so successful at if she has the time to write this crap?

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:29 PM

150. OK. I think "Amy Glass" doesn't exist, except as a publicity troll

No one can find out anything about her, and she hasn't appeared anywhere.

She was contrived as a dog whistle for conservatives to get all hyped up about evil feminists.

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Response to mainer (Reply #150)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:33 PM

152. Quite possible (probable)

Even if she does exist one (or a few) people that "look down" on folk with different values or that have made different choices ... are @$$-holes .. nothing more nothing less (yes I realize I just looked down on her )

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Response to mainer (Reply #150)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:06 PM

161. Yep. I'd bet money on it.

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Response to mainer (Reply #150)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 06:26 PM

236. Looks like we both might have been wrong. See Arugula Latte's post #225. She exists!

Still a troll, though.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 12:49 PM

157. I've done many things in my life

including lots of petty admin jobs in my youth, getting a PhD in my early forties, university teaching, corporate training, starting a small business with my husband, etc. All of that, to me, was unexceptional. The only exceptional thing I ever did was produce and rear three healthy normal children, none of whom make a lot of money but all of whom have entered what we call "helping" professions, (a teacher, a child psychologist, a pediatric OR nurse) and in my mind at least are marking the world a better place.

I had my frustrations as a stay at home mom, too, but child rearing is the area of my experience I would never ask for my money back on. My daughter has that plaque in her kitchen: "A hundred years from now it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove...but the world may be different because I was important in the life of a child."

I feel bad that women are incorporating and absorbing a male value system where power and position and money define self-worth. Nothing is more valuable than good parenting.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:09 PM

162. Flame bait - not the OP, the author of the piece.

And it's worked. How many posters on this thread have proceeded to diminish women who do not have children? Honestly, I stopped counting about halfway through.

Motherhood is the most important thing a women can do! So those of you without kids will never do anything that important.

I never knew true happiness until I became a mom! So don't even bother trying for a chuckle from life.

Mom wins! Yep, because we all know that producing kids ups the chance that someone will do something special.

And this is a progressive board...sound more like Facebook.

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Response to kiva (Reply #162)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:49 PM

177. "How many posters on this thread have proceeded to diminish women who do not have children?"

 

None.

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Response to El_Johns (Reply #177)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:56 PM

179. Nah. There have been a couple. But only one or two, and as a

woman who chose not to have children and has often taken shit for it, I find that refreshing.

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Response to kiva (Reply #162)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 01:18 AM

256. Wow. Did your computer glitch and take you to another thread while you blinked?

And then glitched and take you right back here for your reply without you realizing it? That's the only explanation for your losing count.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:29 PM

169. Is Ms. Glass saying that being "exceptional" in the professional world

more valuable than being an "exceptional" person, no matter what the choice made- to have kids, to get married, to stay home with kids, to work after having kids, or any number of other choices that are possible?

Seems she is very narrow in her thinking.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:32 PM

172. No matter what, SOMEONE has to do the dishes! Every job is impoortant. That is why all should

 

be paid more equally, IMHO.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:52 PM

178. Just a Different Version of Ann Coulter

They both say outrageous things to enrich themselves. Ann Coulter's over the top remarks are made so she will get headlines and sell her latest book. I don't know if this gal has a book to promote. She is probably doing it to drive up the "clicks" on her blog. This is the same as all the right wing candidates who run for president. They know that they don't have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting the nomination, but they get their names in the news and sell books, videos and speaking engagements. Some even get TV shows. Maybe this gal is trying to get on the View.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:01 PM

181. Fuck up at your job, it can cause a problem. Fuck up when you raise a child,

...at that point, very bad things happen that are far worse than getting written up by some punk in a suit.

The risks of parenting far exceed those of working.

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Response to riqster (Reply #181)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:06 PM

185. Well that really depends on the job.

As a parent, screw up 1-3 kids. Screw on some jobs, screw up hundreds or thousands of kids. The corrupt judge sending kids off to jail for skipping school comes to mind.

Jerry Sandusky and those who protected him comes to mind.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:02 PM

182. What a pompous ass!

I am a highly educated, now retired, professional. But I have to say that the years I stayed home with my young children were the happiest of my life.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:10 PM

186. It's hard to say

If we truly valued the work that parents do, then we should, as a society, be willing to help parents (particularly moms) re-enter the workforce. Nobody should lose their life's work simply due to having a child.

Our society, as a whole, tends to look at stay-at-home moms as inferior people. We are seen as uneducated, unable to earn an income, less important to society. Unable to truly be exceptional. The author is right about that, in my opinion. I don't like it, but I see it every day.

Unfortunately, what isn't being covered here is whether or not the next generation truly benefits from having a stay-at-home parent. How do you measure that? How can anyone decide whether or not it's worth it to the children?

From a personal standpoint, sure, it feels good to see my children grow up and become successful, productive members of society. But what about me? After so many years of cooking, cleaning, taking care of ill children, doing laundry, and managing the household, who will hire me now? How can I make a personal contribution when I'm competing for jobs with kids fresh out of college?

If I could do it all over again, I would not have stayed at home with my children. I love them dearly, but they are growing up and leaving, and I feel left behind. I simply want to be able to support myself and contribute to society, but I feel like I missed my chance when I chose to be a mom.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:24 PM

194. If only Amy Glass's mother had believed as she does...n/t

 

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:38 PM

198. I'd say that my mother managed to be a career woman

and the most fiery feminist I know, and yet she was a wonderful mother to me and my sister.

It's not impossible to do both and be GOOD at doing both.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:43 PM

201. A blogger who decries "word play"...

...doesn't get to use weasel words like "on an equal footing." If she wants to say that domestic parenthood is less important than employment, and that domestic parents are less human, she should just say so.

We all know she just means *poor* domestic parents.

What a dumbass.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:45 PM

202. She is right in some of her points, even if they are rudely stated.

 

People spend time where they value it, and if you are completely caught up in the details of your own life, odds are good you won't be available to solve the bigger problems (if you even notice them).

I am an IT professional; it is part of my identity. I am also a wife and mother. I am also the brains behind the Preemie Growth Project, and what I hope will be a new way of looking at failure to thrive/neuromuscular disorders.

I am *not* a good housekeeper, and I rely on another woman to help me care for my children before and after school. I have made decisions that impact my ability to advance my career based on the hours I am willing to devote to "earning a paycheck" (capped at 40) while my husband misses most after school activities due to his management level/salaried job; he works the more standard 55 hour work week, with extra time as required when "special stuff" comes up regularly. We are not rich, despite good jobs with average salaries for our skills.

As the only one of our partnership who could bear children (and wanting them desperately), we made a decision to keep all of us alive during my pregnancy by following doctor orders and going on five months of bedrest, during which I was not able to earn an income. After the twins came two months early, we managed our finances in such a way that I stayed home to devote myself to their care full-time during that first year, and then gradually re-entered the work force until I was "full-time" when they were 20 months old.

Babies require full-time attention, especially those with health concerns. This round-the-clock care during the first months of their lives was exhausting at a level only another parent can understand, and much of it is a big sleep-deprived blur. I was not mentally capable of much expect for keeping them healthy/alive - and my house cleaning was not up to my mother-in-law's standards then, either! Lol!

I continue to show what I value by where I put my time - the house isn't perfectly clean, but I am working on the write-up for the Project (which is at the point where I think it will *NEVER* be finished!). Realistically, when there is an issue with my children, everything else gets dropped, and bluntly, my brain moves to taking care of their needs first. (My children are six, so I am comfortable with this.) And reality is, while I am scrambling to take care of "everyday laundry, meal planning/cooking, housecleaning, errands, childcare, etc." I am *NOT* typing away at the Project Write-Up.

Thinking and problem solving take energy and concentration (at least for me); my children are wonderful, and putting the phone next to my ear for business calls is like a dog whistle - they know it is going on "somewhere" and immediately require my attention.

But for me, the child rearing years seem like a very brief time, and then they will be finished, while career will be happening for decades more; until the Magical House Cleaning Fairies put routines in place, since "servants" are not in our future, I try to do things with a smile (love FlyLady). I find no glory in folding laundry, but it needs to be done, and Mount WashMore is best conquered on a daily basis. At the same time, a lot of the daily drudgery of 50 years ago is more "inconvenient" than "impossible" when it comes to managing it, while expectations are still high mainly for the woman when it comes to "managing the household"....

A very thought provoking post. Thank you for sharing it.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 02:49 PM

204. I think it's a dangerous choice

but not an inferior lifestyle. Dangerous because you're handing financial responsibility for yourself over to another person. If that person is reliable you're fine. If he (or she) isn't you're setting yourself up for a world of hurt.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:00 PM

206. Nothing in life is usually perfect and the right thing for everyone. This, is one of those

times. People are dollarized far too much in la la land America. There are far more important things than to judge a person by how much fucking money they make, which in essence is what she is saying IMO.


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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:24 PM

214. EGADS! Some individual within a huge equality movement has some incorrect ideas! Stop equality!

 

This is standard B.S. that happens against every group that struggles for equality.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 03:40 PM

215. Marie Curie, Elizabeth Gaskell, Indira Ghandi, Margaret Thatcher, Hillary Clinton, JK Rowling


Maya Angelou, any number of actresses and singers, Dorothy Hodgkin, Ada Lovelace, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, Mary Shelley.

Curie is possibly a particularly strong example: she was happily married, and not merely did she win two Nobel prizes - one jointly with her husband, and one on her own - but she also had a daughter, who also married and also won a Nobel prize jointly with *her* husband (I believe that there's also a granddaughter now working in the same field, but I don't know if she has either a husband or a Nobel yet).

A slightly morbid corollary is that while compiling this list, a disproportionately high fraction of the women I rejected as being exceptional but not having married suffered from poor health and/or died youngish - Jane Austen, the Brontes, Rosalind Franklin, Emmy Noether, Sonia Kovalefsky. I'm not sure if that's wholly a coincidence, or not. I suspect not; the common theme being that until relatively recently almost everyone married, hence a correlation between not doing so and poor health, and if you were to look at *unremarkable* women before the 20th century who never married, you'd find a lot of them died young too.

Grace Hopper lived to be 86 and never married, though.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:02 PM

218. If women have to choose a career or children it's an unequal world

Does anyone say a man with a family cannot "...have the time, energy, freedom or mobility to be exceptional..." if they have a wife and kids?

She's selling herself and all women short.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 04:24 PM

225. I googled her and she looks rather young.

 

Won't it be interesting if she suddenly decides to have kids in five or ten years ... Interesting indeed.

This thing she wrote will follow her around for years.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 06:46 PM

237. I'l respond on FB as I will use words I can't use here and will

receive accolades from all of my friends that have kids and don't.

Somewhat surprised at the lack of support from people here that are usually very vocal and supportive of women.

Actually, I'm not. Nasty.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 07:48 PM

240. I agree with this article.

 

My sister's husband forces my sister to stay at home and take care of the kids while he goes out and enjoys his life and job. My sister hates her life. She has/had the potential to do so much more with her life.

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Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #240)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 04:08 AM

259. What parts do you agree with?

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:03 PM

247. I look down on people who look down on other's career choices. This includes parenthood.

She looks down on people who work in manual labor? Good grief.

What she writes tells me she is someone I care to never interact with and I pity her closemindedness.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 10:03 PM

248. This person apparently doesn't believe in to each her/his own. People are crazy in their judgments

 

of others.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Fri Jan 31, 2014, 11:34 PM

250. Working in the home is only "inferior" because it's unpaid.

Intelligence without a degree doesn't matter; and work that isn't paid doesn't matter. That's still how we think... mostly because people have no clue how to evaluate actual value for themselves by their own judgement, without an arbitrary scorekeeping system.

I look down on people like the blog writer who think that way, so it just goes to show that a given person's disdain doesn't make much difference.

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Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #250)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 12:15 AM

253. Seconded! I still don't know how we ever came to some women believing this tripe about...

 

...other women!

Furthermore, how can we argue for a Basic Income when people are stuck in the mindset that their work matters and someone else's work doesn't?! This is very much a Republican way of thinking. It's filthy, it's dismissive, and it's disgusting. It's something I might have expected to hear a man say, simply from a lack of perspective, but to hear it from a woman just infuriates me.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 12:01 AM

251. I have no husband or children and don't really want them, but

I hate this kind of thinking. Women do most of the world's unpaid work and without their labor nothing else could be done. No one would have clean clothes, tidy houses or cooked food. Not every woman wants to work 9-5 in the outside world anyways. Nor does every man. Plus, stay-at-home moms almost never stop working. They don't get lunch breaks, the kids just don't sit down and stop moving just because you're tired!

I don't understand why parents (of both genders) get so much crap, especially from other women! I know that there are 7 billion people now, but still, moms are the reason we exist. Someone took the time to raise the rest of us!

I'm not some "mommy blogger" and I'm not sorry, but screw Amy Glass and her sexist post. Working at home, wether or not you get paid for it (and I think we should come up with a way to pay stay-at-home mothers), is every bit as important as so called "real work". It may actually be even harder, on average, too.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 01:34 AM

257. This seems very much like a backlash against fundamentalism

A lot of the "to the right of Mussolini" crowd believe a woman is a worthless failure if she chooses a life other than that of stay-at-home mother and loving housewife, and that her husband is a worthless failure if he doesn't provide well enough to enable her to do that. (Which means we're living in a nation of worthless failures...)

Ms. Glass gets looked down upon a lot by the holier-than-Jesus crowd and is just returning the compliment.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 08:45 AM

261. I don't know who Amy Glass is and I don't give a shit what she thinks. nt

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 10:07 AM

263. What snobbery.

I wonder if she would think housework important if no one did it and we all walked around through piles of filth and rot wearing dirt encrusted clothing and let the children eat dirt because no one wanted to waste their precious time and talents shopping and preparing a meal for them.

Doctors, engineers....yes, there are many important fields out there but it's also somewhat subjective. Most careers aren't quite as noble at that and some women might not aspire to be a cog in a corporate wheel whose main function is to make some CEO and the stockholders rich. They might rather spend their time making a comfortable home and a happy life for their families.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 12:14 PM

266. I understand her viewpoint

but there are lots and lots of very exceptional women who are married and have families. Really, most of them probably do.

Look at the women out there who don't have husbands or families. The only one I can think of right now is Condaleeza Rice. I know there are more but I think they really are the exception.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Sat Feb 1, 2014, 12:19 PM

267. amy glass is nasty piece of work.

 

I left a VP job to raise my kids for a few years. She can kiss my heinie.

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Response to Common Sense Party (Original post)

Tue Feb 4, 2014, 10:38 AM

270. The first sentence of the last paragraph you quoted is a non sequitur.

How does devaluing domestic parenthood and housekeeping make women equal to men?

The author is just telling people with whom she disagrees to shut up, and that is a tacit admission of her failure to make a point.

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