In Florida - "Stand Your Ground" = legalized murder

[Hugabear]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by hootinholler (a host of the General Discussion forum).

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-19/news/os-trayvon-martin-law-beth-kassab-032012-20120319_1_castle-doctrine-unarmed-man-law-enforcement

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I haven't heard of any fatal disputes over the grocery check-out line, but in 2010 an unarmed man was shot and killed at a park near Tampa in a dispute over skateboarding rules. The victim's 10-year-old daughter watched her father die. A judge is currently considering whether the shooter merely stood his ground.

In 2008, a 15-year-old boy was killed during a shootout between two gangs in Tallahassee. Nobody was held accountable for the crime because a judge, citing the law, dismissed the charges.

And in January, a former Broward County sheriff's deputy shot and wounded a homeless man inside a Häagen-Dazs ice cream shop in Miami Lakes. He said the man was threatening him and his family. Police said charges were unlikely in that case as well.

Many of us warned this would happen. But nooooo, the gun-lovers argued. Guns aren't the problem. Law-abiding people aren't the problem. I remember the debate here on DU, with the usual suspects arguing in favor of turning Florida's streets into the Wild West.

Well guess what. George Zimmerman is still considered a "law abiding citizen" - even though he murdered someone in cold blood.

[Ed Suspicious]

1. Barbaric, wild west bullshit. n/t

[arely staircase]

2. so he should not have stood his ground?

the young man who was murdered that is. he is the one who excercised that right. Not Zimmerman. Personally I don't think anyone should be required to be bullied by the likes of him.

[flvegan]

3. Sweet Jesus, I finally have to chime in.

Your statement that "Stand Your Ground" is nothing more than legalized murder is bullshit, regardless of how you want to frame it with this event with Zimmerman.

[Hugabear]

4. So people are not being killed needlessly because of this law?

The link I gave provides several incidents where the "Stand your Ground" law was cited as justification for blowing someone away.

[flvegan]

10. You stated that "stand your ground" was "legalized murder"

What a judge or jury decides isn't on me. The internet, and the postings thereon, don't constitute law for me. Sorry, perception is what it is.

I try not to entertain random links as they pertain to law. Did you have reason to believe that several someones were "blown away" wrongly in Florida? I'm not denying that it has happened, I just want to know what I'm being accused of excusing.

[Hugabear]

22. What the hell do you think is going on with the Zimmerman case?

Racist asshole constantly complains about "suspicious black men" hanging around his neighborhood. He complains that they "always get away". He pursues an unarmed black kid - despite clear advice from the 911 operator NOT to do so.

I don't give a fuck how you want to frame it, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY THIS KILLING WAS JUSTIFIED. A small kid carrying a bag of Skittles is NOT A DEADLY THREAT. Zimmerman KILLED HIM. The police didn't even want to investigate, they simply accepted his explanation that the shooting was in self defense. How is that not murder?

The link I gave in the OP provides a few other examples where someone was killed in a dubious case of "self-defense".

[flvegan]

26. Due process.

I'm very happy to see that outside law enforcement has taken up the case. I'm not defending Zimmerman, nor his actions. Justice be served.

What I take issue with is that "stand your ground" is broadbrush "legalized murder" thanks.

[arthritisR_US]

5. How is it not legalized murder? n/t

[flvegan]

11. Better question...how is it?

Be specific. Please.

[Hoyt]

14. Because some gun-culture members think it gives them licence to kill.

I'm sure Zimmerman believed all the right wing bull that he could stand his ground "if he thought he was in danger. "

Let's be real. Every person who straps a gun or two on before venturing into town either thinks he is in danger, or is otherwise....

[flvegan]

17. Perception is a funny thing. n/t

[arthritisR_US]

15. Man stalks young lad in his truck and then

on foot untill he forces an altercation and then shoots the boy without being arrested or charged for 2nd degree murder, or at minimum manslaughter. That to me is legalized murder.

You were the one who flat out disputed the OP, without nary supporting facts. I would again ask, how is it not legalized murder?

[flvegan]

18. You should re-read my response.

Then, with intelligence, post a response to it.

[arthritisR_US]

21. I won't dignify that response, thanks. n/t

[flvegan]

28. Meaning...what?

You don't have one or you...don't have one? Nevermind.

[X_Digger]

6. Florida law itself gives lie to your statement..

http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/776.041.html

[div class='excerpt']776.041 Use of force by aggressor.

The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

The fact is that the Sanford PD is covering it up and not following the law as it is written.

[div class='excerpt']Well guess what. George Zimmerman is still considered a "law abiding citizen" - even though he murdered someone in cold blood.

We have this thing, perhaps you've heard of it- specifically enumerated in the 5th and 14th amendments- called 'due process'. People aren't considered guilty of a crime until they've had a heaping dose of it.

[Hugabear]

9. What the law says and what really happens are two different things

As you well know, laws are only as good as they are interpreted and enforced. If law enforcement refuses to arrest people who simply claim they were "standing their ground", or state attorneys refuse to file charges in such cases, then it basically gives people the right to resort to murder - and then claim that they were "defending themselves" or that they were in "fear of their life".

Pretty sure the unarmed man who was shot over an argument about skateboarding rules would constitute justification for deadly force.

[X_Digger]

13. Then that's an enforcement problem, not a law problem.

See the difference?

Any law can be perverted by a racist police department / prosecutor (as appears is happening in the case here.)

[Hoyt]

24. Call it whatever you want, laws this easily misinterpreted, need to be changed.

[X_Digger]

27. Duty to Retreat is not coming back.

That's really the only substantive change pre-2005 to now.

Let's hope that a DoJ-level colonoscopy will convince racist police departments to follow the law.

[arthritisR_US]

12. As the law is being applied by law enforcement,

it is legalized murder. I gather this from the actual examples given in the OP and your citing and inclusion of the statute.

[X_Digger]

19. Judge Lewis (the judge in the gang case) also skipped that section (776.041)

Two of the three had previous convictions, and were therefore felons-in-possession. One of them is still in jail because of the previous shooting that night.

Lewis was making political hay at the cost of effective enforcement.

[arthritisR_US]

23. It sounds like one bloody mess!

[X_Digger]

25. Yep, Lewis was soundly excoriated for the decision.

That's one reason that I don't like the idea of electing judges.

[MrScorpio]

7. It's license to shoot anyone who makes you upset. nt

[1620rock]

8. Oh it's legalized murder alright. That law is a licsence to kill anone anywhere...

...without fear of prosecution.

[arthritisR_US]

16. That is the only thing I can deduce as well. n/t

[hlthe2b]

20. Unfortunately many "progressive" gunners joined NRA & RW extremists to propel this legislation...

And they wonder why such contempt for NRA on progressive boards?

[hootinholler]

29. Locking: There is a group for exactly this topic

Justice & Public Safety -> Gun Control & RKBA