Salvation Army

[burrfoot]

So, here's my conundrum. I came across, somewhere in the threads, information about how homophobic/actively anti-gay the Salvation Army can be.

I seem to recall there being comments about choosing to donate somewhere else, and not support this agency.

I totally understand that...but here's my problem: The Salvation Army does real, immediate good. All the time. I work with kids in foster care and right now I have three living in a family-style group home that they run. It is absolutely outstanding. I have seen a lot of shit placements over the years, and this place is literally leaps and bounds beyond the vast majority of homes- either group homes or traditional family foster homes.

So...don't donate to them because they're a homophobic agency? Do donate to them, because despite that, they do good things and run programs that quite literally change childrens' lives for the better?

Thoughts??

[alphafemale]

1. I think it's everyones decision. One way or the other who they decide to donate to or not.

And I don't think anyone should judge another based on that yea or nea choice.

It is good to be informed though.

There was this one time though I was collecting for UNICEF and this person in my Mother's car actually said that she wouldn't donate because they fed children who weren't Christian....and it was better that they starve to death and go to Jesus before they reached the age of accountability than live only to burn in hell forever.

Age 7 clue-in that many adults were mouth foaming crazy and mean as hell to boot.

[Ferret Annica]

2. I worked for Food for land County at the family dining site located in a Salvation Army center

I like the two SA officers running the show there, and they never hassled me about being a Wicca practitioner, or people who ate there -- and likely still eat there now they run their own food program -- who are gay or lesbian.

I would chose other battles in the acceptance war because boycotts like this are not effective. They just become a line item when the haters with the most vitriol go after the imaginary and contrived notion that there is a "gay agenda."

Not to mention it is a great rally point to cite to supporters to get additional funding that makes up the deficit caused by a boycott, and to increase their profile in the community because they can sell themselves incorrectly as "a victim of oppression."

[burrfoot]

3. I'm with you two on this.

A) Boycott's at this level don't seem to do what people think they will.

B) No one should be judged for donating to a charitable cause- given that, at some point along the line, that donation really does do some good.


I suppose I should I have said; I'm more interested in what people think about the morality of supporting an agency that has some questionable practices but also does real good.

As far as donation goes for me, I'm lucky enough to have a job where one of the side effects is that I get to personally know kids and families who are in need, and can donate directly where I feel it will do the most good when I'm feeling charitable

[elfin]

4. I always give a little in a kettle, but much more

to non - homophobic organizations.

Used to give much more to them before I learned of their agenda.

I feel for the people manning the kettles ando don't think they have a clue about the SA's modus operandi.

[hlthe2b]

5. They are the only game in town for many rural or severely impoverished

areas of the country...Having worked locally with them (in collaboration with my own workplace), I have not encountered homophobia in action--in terms of how they treat clients in practice or any restrictions that one might respect given their national attitudes. I understand and respect those who may feel differently, but in this horrific economic climate, I can not advocate NOT giving to SA if one is so inclined. Work to change the organization's overall attitudes, certainly, but I just can't aid in hurting those they are often uniquely able to help.

[bluestate10]

6. Thanks for providing another point of view.

I have chosen for a while not to donate to the Salvation Army due to their Gay/Lesbian stand. I am straight, but am one that feels that discrimination of any sort is wrong. I am sending out the last donations for this month and year, I will consider donating to the Salvation Army.

[RebelOne]

7. I felt really guilty today when going into Big Lots and there was a Salvation Army bell ringer

outside. I told him that I did not have any cash. I use my debit card for all purchases and didn't even have any spare change. As I exited the store, he said Merry Christmas, which just added to my guilt.

[William769]

8. I don't hold it against anyone who donates to the Salvation Army.

I just don't donate to them or any organization that tries to keep rights from any citizen no matter what they do for some other people.

I'm sending them a clear message that all people matter and they don't get to pick and choose who deserving and who isn't.

Just my two cents.

[Curmudgeoness]

9. Besides the political issues, SA is a great charity.

They help so many people, and as you have said, your local chapter does a lot of good. So support it. You may want to write letters or talk to the local people about how you feel about this political lobbying that you object to. But don't hurt the people who need help. Try to work on their attitudes toward homophobia in other ways.

Only if you see that the local SA is not working properly should you withhold donations. I know too many people who have gotten help there when no other agencies would bother with them. They do not ask you a hundred questions about your situation before they will offer help.

Besides, they have to be devoted to run around in those silly costumes.

[Politicalboi]

10. Sorry but

I don't donate to people who hate me and other gay and lesbians.

[Yo_Mama]

11. I give to them

because I see them where no one else is, doing what no one else will do.

Every person and every institution is a mix of good and bad, and if we can only support those who are wholly good, this is going to be a very frightening world.

It's not that I think another person is wrong for refusing to give due to quarrels with their stance - I think every person has to consult his or her conscience in a case like this.

[DCKit]

12. Simple. Support your local chapter. nt

[marybourg]

13. This happened a long time ago and may not matter

any more, but my uncles came home from WWII and talked about how the Red Cross had set up headquarters with the generals, way behind the front lines, but the Salvation Army was on their hands and knees crawling up onto the beaches, in the Pacific and in Europe, right behind the first GIs to disembark, and provided them with as many comforts as possible. So I still have a soft spot in my heart for the the SA.

[shraby]

16. Not only that, but the Red Cross charged the guys on the front

for the donuts and coffee they distributed. My Dad still has a bad taste in his mouth for the Red Cross. He was at the Battle of the Bulge, so it isn't as if he didn't see action.

[FreeState]

14. There are other groups that do just as much good without harming minorities

I would give to them. If the SA is truly as wonderful as espoused they would see the light and stop their war on gay families when the donations dried up.

[catabryna]

15. I won't donate to them because they overstate their impact...

Their tearjerker commercials seem to indicate that they provide assistance to over 25% of the US population. That is out and out bullshit.

[sad sally]

19. Guess if you've never needed help it's okay to call bs.

Having been rescued from a living hell by them with never a question as to who we were or how we got in the situation or that they wanted anything in return - and seeing quite a large number of people in similar boats treated the same way - well, guess it depends on whether a person has ever needed help...

[catabryna]

21. Considering I've been in two (three actually) homeless shelters...

One because of an abusive husband (physical), and one because of an abusive family (emotional)... I do have room to talk. Neither of those places had anything whatsoever to do with the Salvation Army.



eta: two because of an abusive family.

[Joe the Revelator]

18. I can't, in good concious, give to the SA.....

I'm straight and their national agenda makes me sick. My money can be used elsewhere.

[murray hill farm]

20. What? Because they do "some" good...

we tolerate their bigotry? I have zero tolerance for bigotry..no matter how otherwise "good" a person or group might be along with that part of them that is bigoted! Especially a charity!

[burrfoot]

22. I'm only posing the question- not trying to

tell anyone what they should or shouldn't tolerate.

I find this question, applied to this particular group, so interesting because they don't just do "some" good- they do A LOT of good- and yet they also, institutionally, hold to a philosophy that I find unacceptable.

So, if we grant the assumption (which, personally, I do) that donating to them actually would have a net effect of helping the people they help- through food banks, shelters, children's homes, stores, etc.- do the people receiving the service deserve to suffer because of an issue to do with the agency providing the service? (which, of course, they have no control over)

[murray hill farm]

23. Quite a conundrum, isn't it!

I do see your point! I wish there was a way to donate to those that are rejected because of their sexual orientation by the Salvation Army.

[burrfoot]

26. Ha! I like it!

[Ms. Toad]

24. This is a really hard question for me.

The Salvation Army's formal national policy, and the practice in many localities is homophobic. One of my earlier memories of this reality was in the early to mid 80s when they returned a large donation because it came from a gay organization (or perhaps an openly gay person). Unfortunately, I haven't been able to any formal recitation of the story down.

The memory and time frame are pretty clear because within a year of that well publicized event, I was on the planning committee for an LGBT conference. At the end of the conference we had a significant quantity of food left over and tried to find a charitable organization that could or would accept it. No one would. We had not even tried the Salvation Army because of the publicity around the check that was returned to the donor. Finally, rather than just throw the food in the dumpster, we called the Salvation Army. We told them who we were and asked if they would accept the food. They were enthusiastic about it and didn't care that it was coming from an LGBT group. There were hungry people who needed it, and they were willing to come pick it up and get it to those people.

So, my experience on a local level has been positive.

That, and my grandfather was a bell-ringer for them for years. I have very few fond memories of my grandfather- and this is one of them. So, even though it goes against all of my principles to support an organization that is working against who I am, I typically feed the bucket a few dollars a year in memory of my grandfather.

[emilyg]

25. I donate because

they help many.

[mmonk]

27. Here are their views and people can judge for themselves

on the question if whether they are comfortable to give:

http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/www_usn_2.nsf/vw-dynamic-index/B6F3F4DF3150F5B585257434004C177D?Opendocument

[piratefish08]

28. would they help a gay foster kid? that's where the argument loses validity.

[burrfoot]

31. Yes.

At least, to the best of my knowledge. Whether it's because they're not legally able to deny placement of a foster child due to sexual orientation; or if it's because the policies of the administration are completely removed from what actually happens "on the ground," I don't know.

[dsc]

29. I think a fair question is

If the Salvation Army were as racist as it is homophobic, would you still donate to them? If the answer is yes, then donate, if it is no, then don't.

[burrfoot]

32. It's not really so much

a question of literally whether or not I'll donate to them. That was just kind of my attempt at framing the broader question of should people support an agency that does a significant amount of good, if they also have unacceptable policies as an institution.

They don't turn away minority foster children- I know that for a fact. So if the administration of the agency had racist policies, would that be a reason to donate somewhere else? Different facet of the same question.

I do appreciate your comment, though- that is definitely a good way to think about it.

[Morning Dew]

30. The dirty little secret of these organizations is that they use Federal funding for their programs

and let the public think it's the work of the organization.

As much as 95% of the Salvation Army's children services division funding comes from taxpayers.

Your donation may well be used for buildings, salaries, or funding anti-gay initiatives in your state.

[burrfoot]

33. Now that is an interesting perspective.

Is there somewhere I can check out that kind of info? That would, actually, make a difference in my decision.

[Morning Dew]

36. this is an older story (2005) from the WaPo

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/19/AR2005101902122_pf.html

------------------------------------------
Chalk up a big legal victory for President Bush's effort to help religious charities get taxpayer funding. And score a symbolic win, too, for those who think Bush's "faith-based initiative" is just pork-barrel politics in disguise.

Bush's big victory came Sept. 30 in New York, where a federal judge threw out most elements of a religious discrimination lawsuit against the Salvation Army. Eighteen employees claimed they were fired or demoted because they refused to pledge support to the Salvation Army's mission of "proclaiming Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord," disclose what church they attended or name gay co-workers.

U.S. District Judge Sidney H. Stein noted that all the plaintiffs worked for a children's services division of the Salvation Army that gets 95 percent of its $50 million budget from government grants.

But the judge's 48-page opinion upheld the principle that a religious group can hire and fire employees on the basis of their religious beliefs and practices, even if their salaries come from taxpayer funds. That principle is at the heart of the Bush administration's policy.

---------------------------------------------

[DeathToTheOil]

34. Don't let Ideological Purity stay your hand

SA does a lot of good. But remember, they're a religious organization. And you aren't required to donate. But please do.

[coalition_unwilling]

35. I'm deeply conflicted because, IIRC, during the depths of the Reagan Recession (when the national

unemployment rate reached 11% for a brief time), the SA was the only organization in Kansas City that was running soup kitchens to feed the urban destitute. Having spent some of my childhood in poverty, I tend to look very favorably on any group that feeds the poor, no matter its political stance.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. I used to volunteer for a Salvation Army program for homeless youth

About 1/3 of the youth were GLBT and had been kicked out of their homes by ignorant/bigoted parents.

There was never any discrimination against the GLBT kids. The SA officers even tried to talk sense into the parents of these kids, explaining that punishment wouldn't change their child's orientation and that living on the streets could be a death sentence. I'd hear them speaking in exasperated tones about, for instance, one family that would take their gay son back only if he joined the football team--as if his orientation were the result of insufficient athletics. (In general, the SA officers tried to work out a reconciliation between the kids and their parents, no matter why the kid had been thrown out or run away, unless it was clear that the home was abusive.)

Some of my fellow volunteers were gay or lesbian. The only requirements for volunteering were that we had to pass a police background check, attend two full-day orientations about street culture and the institutional culture that the SA was trying to maintain (no violence, no negotiations for drugs or sex, no bigoted remarks--any of which would result in being banned from the premises for a certain length of time), write an essay about why we wanted to volunteer, and have an interview in which we discussed the essay with an officer. Nobody even asked what my religious convictions were.

The center provided an evening meal 365 days a year, with prepared food donated by local churches or other groups of volunteers. (A group might bring in some pans of lasagne, some salads, and some garlic bread, for instance). The kids could take showers, "shop" for donated clothes or personal care supplies, or just hang out in a lounge equipped with a TV, board and card games, and books and magazines. Sometimes volunteers came in to teach crafts or art techniques.

The kids could also come in during the day to be tutored for their GEDs, and if they did, they also got lunch (an incentive, for sure).

An informal church service was offered on Sunday mornings, but no one was required to attend.

There was a support group for single mothers, not all of whom were homeless, but all of whom were rather young to be responsible for a child or two or three.

One spring, a staff member started a softball team, and the kids played against clients of other social service agencies. Various volunteers worked on getting free tickets for things, including dress rehearsals for the Portland Opera. (And yes, there were kids who enjoyed that.) They even held a prom every spring, with formal clothes and hair styles and make-up all donated.

At one point, the downtown merchants started complaining that this Salvation Army program was too much into maintaining the kids on the streets and not doing enough to get them into permanent housing. (Never mind that a lot of the kids were too young to work legally, there wasn't enough housing for them, and many of them had had bad experiences in foster homes. Even so, about 1/3 of their clients did make it off the streets.)

The Salvation Army lost its contract for providing services for homeless youth as a result of the complaints.

Three other agencies took over.

In the remaining two years of my life in Portland, I sometimes ran into former clients of the Salvation Army program. Those who were still homeless complained that the other programs weren't as well organized and didn't seem as savvy about the realities of life on the streets as the Salvation Army was.

Anyway, my experience with this Salvation Army program was that they understood the population they were working with, did not display any bigotry toward either the kids or volunteers who were GLBT, and provided valuable support for kids who were trying to survive under tough circumstances.

[Mimosa]

45. Exaxtly. This LGBT agrees with you. N/T

[aquart]

38. They don't ask who you screw or what you believe when they hand out coffee and donuts.

They take donations from anyone and sell them back to anyone here in Chelsea right next door to a gay porn store.

Half my wardrobe consists of Salvation Army cashmere and Salvation Army jeans.

This is a sanctuary community where pretty much anyone is welcome without a hassle and they fit fine.

[Ian David]

40. They take your money and use it to lobby Congress against Gay Rights. n/t

[aquart]

41. Queen size white goose down comforter $5.99

Pottery Barn full/queen duvet cover $4.99

Nautica bath sheet $2.99

Cashmere gloves $1.00

[Ian David]

43. Giant latex fist, $39.99. n/t

[Ian David]

39. Would you donate to Hezbollah because they also help widows and orphans? n/t

[aquart]

42. No. But if they offered me cashmere for under $10?

And it really was cashmere?

[Mimosa]

44. Do donate

I know exactly what you mean about foster homes.

The Salvation Army has always done many good things for people.

We can't always have Christian orgs be politically correct. At least the salvation Army aren't Mormons. *LOL*

[Iggo]

46. Figure out who you want to help.

Find out which agency directly helps those people and donate to that agency. If it's Salvation Army so be it.

Ask yourself: Am I looking for a way to help people? Or am I just looking for a way to donate to SA?

[The Straight Story]

47. Obama is not really for gay marriage, so I guess I won't donate my vote to him