Because Glenn Greenwald is who he is, NSA spying is fine

[MannyGoldstein]

It's as simple as that. So obvious.

I think it also makes Keystone XL OK, but I'm waiting for more details.

Regards,

Third-Way Manny

[iandhr]

1. I don't think people are saying that.

Some people here seem to think he is a saint. You can oppose the NSA and object to his friendships with white supremacists at the same time.

[Bonobo]

2. The implication is clear.

Greenwald is untrustworthy because XXXX.

Therefore, his reporting on NSA is not to be trusted.

Big, big BIG thumbs down to people that try to make THAT turd float.

[joshcryer]

3. I trust his reporting on the NSA

but if he can't be trusted on other issues one must be skeptical of his motivations and how they help or hinder the NSA

so far I'm unimpressed

release the unradacated files

[Bonobo]

4. Release the unredacted files and confirm the worst accusations of treason and carelessness? nt

[joshcryer]

5. or trickle it out over time

writing article upon article about how bad the NSA is while public opinion gets increasingly apathetic

Wikileaks tried that, nothing big came of it until all the cables were released

I suppose you think Manning committed treason and was careless?

[Bonobo]

6. No, I do not think Manning committed treason and was careless.

But I think that many accuse her of doing so.

[joshcryer]

10. They would be wrong.

[Electric Monk]

7. Damned if you do, damned if you don't? Either he's taking too long, or he's just being careless? nt

[joshcryer]

9. That was bonobo characterizing it as careless.

I do not believe it would be careless.

[Bonobo]

12. No, that was Bonobo explaining that other people have characterized it as careless. nt

[joshcryer]

13. I assumed by "confirm the worst accusations" you believed that.

Since it would be a "confirmation."

(Note the time stamps, I posted that before I saw you walked it back and said that it wasn't you agreeing with it being a confirmation of the worst accusations. I read and respond from bottom to top in threads, it's a bad habit.)

[Bonobo]

14. Odd assumption. nt

[joshcryer]

15. I would've said "trigger" not "confirm."

[Bonobo]

17. Ever hear the phrase "confirm in some people's minds"? nt

[joshcryer]

18. Nope.

And it was impossible for me to assume you meant that. But your backing down indicated that was the case. So I take you at your word you didn't mean you believed that it would confirm the accusations of treason and carelessness, even though that's literally what you said.

[Electric Monk]

19. Wow, did this ever get off topic :O

[joshcryer]

22. Not really.

Glenn Greenwald is a journalist who should release all of the data like Manning did. That's my whole point.

Those who think otherwise are indicting Manning for releasing all of the data. Like Assange, as a journalist, Greenwald has no requirement to keep the data secret or to redacate or to trickle it into the open. He trickles for his own motivations (profit mostly), but it is detrimental to the process and will allow the NSA to get away with their shit.

The NSA needs a smack in the face, not a trickle rain, misting ever so slightly.

[Luminous Animal]

52. Wait. Chelsea Manning is not a journalist and Wikileaks is still releasing documents REDACTED

and not releasing some at all.

Unlike Assange, Greenwald, Gellman and Poitras, have specific agreements to minimize harm to actual human beings.

His requirement is to protect his source. How so 20th century.

[joshcryer]

74. Wikileaks posted the entire unradacated cable database

I'm not understanding your post, seems you agree that releasing the data would be 'careless' and 'treasonous'

[Luminous Animal]

75. No they did not. The Guardian posted the key to the unredacted docs but Wikileaks

continues to publish them redacted.

[joshcryer]

78. No they didn't, yes they did?

They publish the entire database on their site, unredacted.

So whoever has the Snowden files can do that, and claim plausible deniablity, since several people have the files. Simple.

Still wondering if you'd think it'd be careless or treasonous to do that.

[sendero]

98. You can't have it both ways.

... the data is being scrutinized to make sure agents are not outed and etc. Documents are reviewed, redacted and released one at a time. You can't just do a data dump or all bets would be off.

Whether they could go faster or not is not information you are likely to be privy to.

[Bonobo]

31. "Backing down"?

This is getting strange, but as to the phrase, why don't you do a google search on it. It would be good for you to stretch yourself, Josh.

I don't know what you think I backed down from since I never thought that Manning OR Greenwald should do anything other than release what they've got nor do I think that they would be traitors for doing so. I was merely acknowledging the fact that the charge is often leveled against them even here on DU by some who pretend to be liberals.

[joshcryer]

73. 'confirm' is only read that way to me

[Luminous Animal]

49. Wait wut? I missed that big moment when all of them were released.

Already, news agencies who were not diligent in redacting are catching heat and you want Greenwald to take on that burden, too?

The hue and cry and the increased vilification would be deafening.

He would also be betraying his source and his relationship with his closest collaborator, the amazing Laura Poitras.

But, if full release is so important to you, why don't you harangue freelance journalist Bart Gellman. He has a huge cache.

[joshcryer]

72. every cable was released

if Gellman has all of the files he should release them

[Luminous Animal]

76. Should Gellman release all the files that he has?

[joshcryer]

79. Yes.

I didn't even know of him. He should release the files. Full stop. They can't prove he was the one to have done it unless the others say they have more files and subvert him and testify against him (ie, they know what files he has and say they have the rest and testify in court against him).

It remains a fact that nothing substantive came of the Manning cables until the entire dataset was released. Why? Because Wikileaks was trying to get media corporations from various countries to pay them to see what was inside. If it wasn't for the lapse in key security we may have never seen the cables in a mass dump and the impact would've been minimal at best (which itself was hilarious, much like how Snowden using bitmessage was a hilarious lapse in security judgment).

Never underestimate the ability of society to become apathetic from a trickle of information, it requires a dump, so that the journalists of the world can go over it and highlight every single thing. This is the information age. They say that Wikileaks and Greenwald are going about it the right way by "keeping the story alive" but it's apparent that the load was blown and there has been little blowback against the NSA. I think the NSA is happy with how the reaction has been. A few big hits, but after that a gradually irrelevant hit? I hope to fuck there's more in there that is groundbreaking, but I won't hold my breath.

[TransitJohn]

42. Nobody who conceives of society in a realistic manner thinks anybody's a saint

POTUS, Greenwald, you, me...
Everybody's a mixed bag.

[Luminous Animal]

65. What rot logic. As if the lawyers for the ACLU had a "friendhship" with the Skokie Nazis.

[RobertEarl]

8. Yep.

Last edited Sat Feb 8, 2014, 04:42 AM - Edit history (1)

And since Rand is against spying, spying must be ok.

It is great that we can allow others to think for us, isn't it? Like if Obama is for drones dropping bombs, then it's ok to think bomb dropping drones are good.

It really makes life easier that way. La la la la la.

I've traveled the world!! Yep, been to Disney World!!

[ReRe]

11. Up is down and down is up.

... Nosiree, you won't find any common sense around here!

[Pretzel_Warrior]

16. mock 3rd way all you want. 8 years of Clinton was demonstrably better than 12 years of Reagan

and 8 years of Shrub Jr.

It is doubtful anyone on the liberal variety in Dem party would have beat Bush Sr. in 1992.

[Electric Monk]

20. You should put that in your profile. nt

[Pretzel_Warrior]

21. there's a lot you should put in your profile

[Electric Monk]

23. tempt me more, why don't you...

[Fumesucker]

24. That's certainly damning with faint praise

[Pretzel_Warrior]

25. yes it is. but it is realistic fact that winning with 3rd way was better

than having the Dems lose congress to Repukes in 94 while a GOP stooge was president.

[Fumesucker]

26. It's really a sad commentary that twenty years later we are no wiser and can do no better

Kind of like Dubya never happened.

Of course the Republicans have long since edited Dubya out of their collective memories.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

27. the last time a rather liberal Dem got the nomination, he was steamrolled in 1988

Clinton wasn't a liberal, Gore wasn't a liberal, Kerry wasn't a liberal and Obama wasn't a liberal (nor was his runner-Hillary).

Maybe the bleeding edge of liberal politics needs to recognize they don't even have the juice to get what they would consider a liberal within sniffing distance of the nom--let alone the White House.

[Electric Monk]

28. I wonder where you get that attitude. Apparently you think you're in some inner circles. Please...

feel free to elaborate

[Fumesucker]

30. It's really too bad that Democrats need the liberals to win elections

Else they could just go ahead and become Republicans and everyone could be a lot more truthful and much happier.

Damn liberals wanting equality and economic fairness, who the hell do they think they are?

[Rex]

51. It is equally sad when they say Al Gore is not a liberal

almost like they want to forget 2000.

[treestar]

45. Or in Congress, or state and local offices

Just stamping their feet and making demands is really going to work on most voters. Or claiming those voters agree with them based on zero evidence.

[Rex]

50. Yeah and our first liberal POTUS Al Gore was ran out of office

by the SCOTUS. How soon we forget.

[Armstead]

92. D does not have to stand for defeatist

Gosh no, a candidate who stands clearly for the economic interests of the majority of people could never get elected.

How did that Unsustainable Bubble of the Clinton years work out once the inevitable pop came?

[treestar]

46. gee, that's too bad, but it does not stop Republicans

from getting elected, nor stop people from voting for them.

[Rex]

53. Yeah and look at the Reagan Dems...still stuck in the same mode.

I guess some people cannot progress at all. Must suck.

[MannyGoldstein]

41. It was?

You might be right, I'mm all ears; let's hear your case.

[TransitJohn]

43. Demonstrably better for whom?

Not the working class and the poor.

[Rex]

54. Well in all fairness

I don't think that is who he is talking about.

[progressoid]

47. Yeah, a broken leg is better than two broken legs.

So, thanks for the broken leg!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

70. In the same way that 8lbs of rubbish is demonstrably better than 12lbs of garbage.

But, I'll pass on both for lunch.

[leftynyc]

29. What simplistic bullshit

So let me get this straight. In order to be outraged by the NSA's outrageous overreach, one must also worship at the feet of a narcissistic asshole who used Snowden (and I really do believe Greenwald was in on this from the beginning) and now couldn't care less what happens to him. That's as moronically simplistic as what you're claiming.

[Bonobo]

32. Why is "narcissistic" ALWAYS the place that people go to when they want to undermine a person

that challenges the status quo?

It's bizarre. As if the very idea of not playing ball with the powers that be is an exercise in not only futility but in egotism.

Is that what you think? That only a narcissist would dare to go against convention?

[Fumesucker]

33. Only a malcontended narcisssist would think that the status quo is not perfect

The status quo is the will of God, it is not our place to question the status quo.

[MannyGoldstein]

40. The best of all possible worlds!

[leftynyc]

35. I call him a narcissist because that's what he is

This isn't about Snowden anymore as far as Greenwald is concerned - he couldn't care less what happens to Snowden - he has served his purpose. Now it's all about Greenwald and the spectacle he's making of himself - as if the thought of him coming back to the US strikes fear in the heart of the President. He's an asshole. The fact he's completely silent on the subject of gays in Russia - at the time of the Olympics - shows what a freeking coward he actually is. The whole of this tweet:

"Russia has awful anti-gay laws; therefore, Snowden should return to US, which imprisons whistleblowers for decades" - drooling jingosists

is all he has to say on the matter. All he's interested in is embarrassing the US - it's his whole reason for being. You may be impressed by that, me, not so much.

[Bonobo]

36. Truly your ability to look within people's minds to discern their inner motives is impressive! nt

[leftynyc]

37. Thank you

It's not like he, along with most people, is all that complicated.

[Bonobo]

38. I disagree. People are actually complex as hell. nt

[leftynyc]

39. Nah - not really

Especially one who is living his life out loud. He has decided to use his voice to embarrass the US at the expense of having any credibility on every other matter. Many want the sole focus to be on the NSA and don't appreciate the sullying of the messenger - so, of course, those pointing out he's an asshole obviously don't care about the NSA - that's the twisted, simplistic thinking that has taken over the "Snowden deserves the Nobel" crowd. You can't seem to separate the two while others can easily have two thoughts at the same time.

[sibelian]

83. As it is of no consequence whatsoever whether or not Greenwald is a "narcissist"

patting oneself on the back for holding the "two thoughts" serves only the purpose of preserving the diversionary qualities of one of them.

[Bluenorthwest]

91. Living his life out loud or just living his life out, which bothers you the most?

Your content is all characterization and insults, and most people who do that are 'dog whistling'. It's really easy to see after a lifetime of dealing with the whistlers.

[leftynyc]

97. Living life out loud

is a phrase I know from Anna Quinlind. She said that although she was a very private person, she had to decide if her privacy was more important than having others read her words. She decided to live her life out loud. Your implication is stunningly stupid.

[sibelian]

80. As the accusation of "narcissist" cannot be disproved of ANYONE acting in ANY public capacity

it has no value of any kind.

It's s simple minded diversion.

[leftynyc]

96. You're wrong

Plenty of people are journalists without making a spectacle of themselves. You just support him and his cause.

[sibelian]

81. It's from a stock of diversionary tactics.

It doesn't explain or devalue anything that Greenwald or any of the other individuals typically accused of it have actually done, it just shifts the focus of the discussion to a different topic.

It doesn't mean anything and it doesn't matter.

[Luminous Animal]

69. Greenwald and Snowden communicate with each other every day. Snowden is now on the board

of Greenwald's and Ellsberg's Freedom of the Press Foundation. Greenwald's husband leads the movement in Brazil to get the Brazilian goverment to offer Snowden asylum.

Yeah. Couldn't care less, indeed.

[reusrename]

34. I've been studying why I find your stuff to be so damn funny.

And I do find it hilarious, so thanks for that.

Not trying to over-think it too much, but what I keep coming up with is the fact that each of these folks that we keep talking about (Snowden, Greenwald, Obama, etc.) have certain beliefs and certain behaviors. We all seem to judge their behavior based on what we perceive their beliefs to be.

It's sort of disconcerting, at first, to suddenly realize that we all seem to do it to different degrees, especially since it's so confounding to watch some other folks here do it with such wild abandon.

It looks as if we all tend to tease out these completely different motives for the same observed behavior. This is probably what team spirit is all about. Everybody getting on the same page somehow. I think it happens when we all attribute the same motives to the person.

Example: We seem to all agree about Elizabeth Warren. Her motives are super clear to everyone.

[treestar]

44. No, it is more of a case of his exaggerating it

and people jumping on it as a way to express their ODS. It ends up being about Glenn rather than about how some may object to metadata in the hands of the NSA becoming a matter of "spying on all Americans" and reading their email. Glennie caused the problem himself by exaggeration, wanting attention to himself rather than the relatively mundane issue.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

77. By "some people" do you mean the man in your avatar?

Joe Biden had some very wise words about the use of metadata.

[Bluenorthwest]

93. Joe Biden (heard of him?) 2006:

Harry: "Well the president, though, said, yesterday: 'We're not listening to phone calls. We're just looking for patterns.'"


Joe Biden: "Harry, I don't have to listen to your phone calls to know what you're doing. If I know every single phone call you made, I'm able to determine every single person you talked to. I can get a pattern about your life that is very, very intrusive."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/12/1215762/-Biden-tells-country-that-meta-data-is-very-very-intrusive

[Autumn]

48. It makes Keystone XL okay, and the TPP even better!!!

Damn Randian traitorous narcissistic ODS sufferer rat bastard who talks to people who steal government documents and leaves pole dancing ballerinas to move to Russia.

[Rex]

55. ...

[Autumn]

59. Wouldn't it be great if Greenwald loved Obama?

I bet we could get rid of the NSA. It's the G.O.D.S. you know .GREENWALD doesn't love OBAMA DERANGEMENT SYNDROME. Just pretend the "doesn't love" is in little bitty teeny tiny letters.

[Rex]

60. Yes if GG loved Obama, his faithful would be calling on the dismantling of the NSA.

Dam you are GOOD!

[Autumn]

62. I'm going to send Glen a picture of Obama without a shirt, coming out of the ocean, in his

swimming trunks. Or maybe my personal favorite of him in a cowboy hat. That ought to do it.

[Rex]

63. I dunno...how do you beat Pootie Poot when it comes to manly chest

thumping while riding a bear? Does Obama have a bear?

HAVE you seen his latest animal that he domesticated?



Now that is a MAN thar! Taymed that shark e did!


EDIT - HAHAHAHA!!! OH MAN...HAVE TO SHARE

[Autumn]

64. That wins, hands down

rofl: :

[Rex]

66. Look at the edit!

[Autumn]

67. Words fail me

[Rex]

68. No wonder we can't find any unicorns! They are all stuck in NK!

[frwrfpos]

56. I love the NSA

Also Capitalism is good and offshoring is good too

Keystone pipeline is a bonus.

As is Charter Schools.

For Profit hopefully.


And I get told this is the new Democratic Party.

I almost forgot Drone Murdering people in other countries is also the New Democratic Party.


I weep for this country

[Hippo_Tron]

57. Or, for that matter, Ed Snowden is who he is...

Ed Snowden may be a libertarian and/or he may love Putin and other oligarchs around the world. It still doesn't change the fact that an NSA analyst shouldn't be able to sit down at their computer terminal and pull up your e-mail for shits and giggles.

[Spider Jerusalem]

58. It seems to be more like...

"Because a Democrat is in the White House now we're going to just give him a pass on all the things we screamed blue murder about when Bush was in charge". It's interesting and instructive to see the extent to which principle is determined by partisanship, for some people.

And then there are a pretty fair number of authoritarians.

[Skidmore]

61. I love the way binary thinkers glom onto a couple of ideas and

ignore the nuance of discussions. Shuts discussion down quickly.

[Bobbie Jo]

71. As intended. nt

[Fumesucker]

82. Thank you for pointing out binary thinking is what Third Way Manny is mocking with this satirical OP

There may be a few people who haven't realized this.

[Skidmore]

84. Binary thinkers come in all flavors.

Even among progressives. Either you agree with me or you are fillintheblank. Read that a lot from some of the self-annointed enlightened.

[Fumesucker]

85. Yes, fillintheblank like emoprog, firebagger, leftbagger, purist, progtopian, malcontent and so on

Enlightenment is a terrible burden to anoint oneself with.

[Skidmore]

86. Flip side being fillintheblank?

Certainly people can learn to deal with each other respectfully.

[Fumesucker]

87. Everyone is the hero in their own story

I try to remember that when I'm dealing with people, it's more difficult to do so online.

Riding my bicycle yesterday I waved at a pack of Harley riders, they all waved back.

[Skidmore]

88. All I am certain of is that I get sick of

the pettiness of certitude and that truth likely is to be found somewhere in the nuances. Oh and no amount of browbeating ever convinces someone to change their minds.

[Fumesucker]

89. No one expects to convince anyone on "the other side" of the argument

All the sturm und drang is for the lurkers or just because we like to argue.

Here's a guide I wrote on how to get your thread completely ignored, it's easy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024353051

1) Avoid snarky and divisive titles

2) Don't broad brush groups

3) Be serious and at least try to see more than one perspective

4) Avoid personal attacks on other DUers

5) Post about something other than the current GD obsession du jour

[Caretha]

90. I'm sorry Manny

but I disagree...it's Snowden's fault.

See Snowden blew it. He has 3 strikes against him and I can prove it.

Strike #1 - We have a Democratic President and when the NSA spies on American citizens nothing bad can happen and it doesn't matter if it is unconstitutional. Obama is a Dem. So there.

Strike #2 - Snowden took an oath not to disclose sensitive information. He broke his Oath! It doesn't matter why, it was an oath dang it to heck, and we have a Democratic President (See strike #1 for details)

Strike #3 - Snowden went to Russia - for GAWD's sake man...RUSSIA! He could of gone to Tahiti and been sitting on the beach sipping drinks with umbrellas in them. What was he thinking? Even better he should be sitting in a jail cell lawyering it up, because, well because it went well for Manning and all, and Manning is a man, right?

[Bluenorthwest]

94. The OP does not even mention Snowden, but you had some material and you

used it, which is always good. Waste not want not!

[Caretha]

95. Thanks

I'm totally series man. Greenwald get's all the love and he's just a dang reporter. And you know reporters...they gotta report.