It is with a heavy heart that I post this

[Aerows]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by hrmjustin (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Last edited Mon Feb 10, 2014, 12:47 AM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4455534
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024460452#post22

Letting such things stand are not a testiment to DU's goodness, or greatness. They are a testament to allowing ugliness. No other way to put it.

ETA: Fixed the first post.

[ScreamingMeemie]

1. The first post must be from the Host's forum, which means most of us can't read it.

Ugliness is allowed to stand here every day, unfortunately. I abhor the idea that someone would actually take notes on the date and time something happened. Basically both participants in that thread make DU suck.

People, throw your god-damned notebooks away already

[Aerows]

4. I am privy to that forum

It was probably poor form to link to something most can't read. So my apologies for my error.

Sorry, ScreamingMeemie.

[Major Nikon]

56. It's also poor form to bring the host forum's business into GD

I understand that you didn't exactly do this directly because people who can't see it can't bring it in, but it is an invitation for other hosts to do so either intentionally or by mistake.

I'm just asking you to keep the host forum stuff in the host forum, including linking to it. I'm not sure if it breaks any rules or not, but it does kneecap the hosts sometimes. As far as discussing the issue itself, I have no quibbles.

[Aerows]

59. I apologize for any offense n/t

[PeaceNikki]

16. I agree. It's creepy as hell.

[NutmegYankee]

2. Obviously he hasn't read "What Uncle Sam Really Wants" by Chomsky

That's one hell of an eye opener book.

[Agschmid]

3. Delete this. GD is not the place.

[Aerows]

5. Nor is hosts, nor is ATA, there is no place for a discussion of this nature.

None. I've asked in every forum I have available to me, and have been told "this isn't the place". I guess "shut up" is the real deal.

[Agschmid]

7. ATA is the place.

[Aerows]

9. Had a post there for two days.

I guess I'm impatient and recalcitrant.

[Agschmid]

11. They don't always answer on the weekend.

Have patience you will get answered.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

67. Wow.,someone got an A in drama

[Aerows]

84. Or an A in history

I did get one, thanks for bringing it up.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. discussing other posts is allowed.

you should know that. There is no rule against "call outs". There is no rule against discussing what other people here post.

If you think the op is a cs violation then alert on it. It is not an sop violation.

[Agschmid]

75. This thread is not "discussing the discussion" as you say...

This thread had turned into direct links to posts by DU'ers and callouts.

It's awesome...

Of course this is all IMO and this is just the internet so we will all get over it.

[Bobbie Jo]

83. Ugh.

Passive-aggressive shit stirring. Backbiting moves like this truly make DU suck.

[Aerows]

85. I guess it is always back-biting

when someone points out some awful things that are said? Or should a blind eye be turned to it, Bobbie Jo?

[Bobbie Jo]

88. Pointing it out is one thing....

Obsessive and gratuitous flogging is another.

[Aerows]

89. Gratuitous flogging?

What would that be?

[Bobbie Jo]

91. Post 65 sums it up

You left out obsessive, btw....

[Aerows]

97. I'm glad you brought that word up

"obsessive".

[Bobbie Jo]

98. Indeed.

Got your notebook handy?

[Aerows]

101. I'm good with history

I never needed one, but I do in fact have a nice pen and a notebook.

[elleng]

6. WTF?

'The parade of evils caused by illegal immigration is widely known, and it gets worse every day. In short, illegal immigration wreaks havoc economically, socially, and culturally; makes a mockery of the rule of law; and is disgraceful just on basic fairness grounds alone. Few people dispute this, and yet nothing is done.'

[Comrade Grumpy]

10. Gotta love those Tea Party positions!

[seveneyes]

17. How, exactly, should the Democratic Party react to illegal immigration?

Most Democrats I know do not embrace the practice of breaking our laws. How do you suppose we approach the problem of people ignoring our laws and choosing to enter the US illegally?

[NutmegYankee]

30. By addressing the root cause of it?

Just focusing on "but they are breaking the law" doesn't actually do anything positive. The question needs to be asked - why are these people risking their lives and separating from family to come here? They come to feed their families and we provide them a means to do so. Desperate people do desperate things.

[seveneyes]

35. I don't think we have control over the countries where the people are coming from

There are many people native to the US struggling for aid now. It's looking like there is too little to help them live comfortably. When you add millions more coming here to get the same benefits, jobs etc, and they do it illegally, that can cause a lot of hard feelings. It may not seem like a party line issue to those getting cut short.

[NutmegYankee]

40. In some cases, we made those countries into hell.

But beyond that, we need to create a system of guest workers so that people can come here and work and bring money home. In the end, all humans want the same things. And the undocumented workers don't consume much in social services, mainly because they are locked out.

What would you do for your family?

[Kali]

82. you are spouting right wing talking points

crossing without papers is a minor civil offense, not some criminal felony. please learn something about this issue before you spout any more faux BS.

[BlueCaliDem]

108. Spot ON.

The xenophobia by some DUers these days is as appalling as is the case with the horribly uninformed but hate-filled Teabaggers. I can barely tell them apart.

[Aerows]

12. It is lovely to get educated on the ills of illegal immigrants.

It seems to enforce ... What exactly?

[Aerows]

34. I guess that is good DU idiology?

I don't get it. And likely never will.

[bvar22]

70. The entire Democratic Party Leadership OPPOSE "Illegal Immigration".

They ALL, including Hillary and President Obama OPPOSE Illegal Immigration.
They agree with Glenn Greenwald 100%.

The only people I know that now SUPPORT Illegal Immigration are highlighted in the thread referenced by the OP.

[elleng]

74. Maybe but NOT because

'The parade of evils caused by illegal immigration is widely known, and it gets worse every day. In short, illegal immigration wreaks havoc economically, socially, and culturally; makes a mockery of the rule of law; and is disgraceful just on basic fairness grounds alone.'

[bvar22]

78. Oh?

And on WHAT basis do YOU think the Party Leadership OPPOSES "Illegal Immigration"?

I support Liberalizing the Immigration Process,
and and easy path to Documentation and Citizenship.

Illegal Immigration does INDEED "wreak havoc economically, socially, and culturally; makes a mockery of the rule of law; and is disgraceful just on basic fairness grounds alone"

Employers CAN hire undocumented ("illegal&quot Immigrants for MUCH cheaper wages than documented workers and citizens. The undocumented workers must tolerate Human Rights abuses and unsafe working conditions because they can NOT complain or report these abuses to the authorities.
This Drives DOWN wages and benefits for documented workers and citizens.

So what part of "wreaks havoc economically, socially, and culturally; makes a mockery of the rule of law; and is disgraceful just on basic fairness grounds alone"
do you disagree with?

Please be specific.

[Comrade Grumpy]

8. DU is a funny place these days, and I don't mean "ha-ha" funny.

[Warren Stupidity]

19. funny like a clown funny?

[TroglodyteScholar]

24. Like spoiled fish funny

[defacto7]

52. Like a dead mouse that died under the refrigerator that

you can't see so you never have the opportunity to clean it up before it rots.

[lumberjack_jeff]

76. Like Pennywise the dancing clown, perhaps.

[Aerows]

90. Oh Lord

Pennywise scared the crap out of me and ruined me for clowns. I read It when I was in college, and then I noticed the paint in my dorm room had "IT" pasted in it.

[bemildred]

13. I always appreciate it when they self-identify like that.

It greatly simplifies reading through threads.

[malaise]

14. Can't read the first one

Lots of ugliness these days

[Aerows]

21. Indeed, Malaise

and we need to bring some more love into it.

[malaise]

22. Agreed

I swear we've been invaded here on DU.

[Scuba]

49. Way out on a limb there, eh?

sarcasm thingy here

[RainDog]

15. what's interesting

is to read defenses for a comment that is dismissive of the history of Latin America and the U.S. interference on the grounds of race...saying someone who has experienced racism gets a pass for making such remarks.

when the truth is that no one on DU knows someone's race and goes by the content of their remarks.

well, some do, but, unless someone cares to bring up their affiliation with a particular group, others won't know.

but we see this sort of thing here in other ways, too. when women attacked Snowden's girlfriend, making fun of her for dancing - that was another "huh?" moment for me. same with the Christy/fat stuff.

It all comes down to who someone wants to discredit - and when that's going on, all of the supposed generosity we expect to be extended toward those in agreement with us is tossed when it's ones who don't.

[Aerows]

20. The degradation of people that are of Latin American Heritage, of Asian American heritage

and African American heritage strikes me as wrong.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

23. You are right, my dear Aerows...

It IS wrong.

[malaise]

25. You know I remember the reaction of people here and on M$Greedia when Chavez gave

President Obama a copy of Eduardo_Galeano's Las Venas Abiertas de America Latina (The Open Veins of Latin America) back in 2009. I shed tears over that arrogance and insensitivity. People may not have liked Chavez, but that book is a wonderful text on our part of the world.

[Aerows]

41. Thank you, my friend

Love you!

[Aerows]

86. I have not read it

But I will now.

[NutmegYankee]

28. It is wrong.

And to display such an ignorance about Latin American political history is horrifying. One cannot understand Latin American history without looking at US interventionism over the last century.

[Aerows]

46. I guess if you insult huge swaths of people, it's okay as long as they aren't

anybody you know.

[notadmblnd]

27. The world is full of ugly and we can't block it all out of our sight.

If we never had to face the ugly, we would never grow as human beings. Besides, wouldn't you rather know who/what you're dealing with- then to have them hide it from you?

[JI7]

29. don't forget the people in this thread who defended the comments against Indians

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024202349

[BainsBane]

32. The single worst thing I've ever seen was posted this morning

Thus, regardless of the past, Dylan is the abuser now.

I never was a Woody Allen fan, I didn't like most of his films long before this controversy came up the first time, but regardless of what he did or didn't do, I don't think Dylan, Mia, and Ronan are any better.

This in a thread about Dylan's rebuttal to Woody Allen, in a thread full of child abuse survivors saying how important it was to them that Dylan had the courage to come forward to speak in ways they have not been able to.

[JI7]

33. those threads are fucked up

it's not even about whether one might think Allen is innocent with regards to Dylan. but about how it has turned into an attack on the abused, her mother, brother etc.

[Number23]

42. But that's DIFFERENT because... well, umm....

And a jury allowed this OP to stand. The OP made this an issue in the host forum and Skinner himself locked it. He's locked probably 2 threads in the history of DU3.

[JI7]

60. i guess there is no heavy heart over those attacks

[Aerows]

87. I think there is a reason the jury let this one stand

It needs to be discussed. This is a community of equals. You may not like what I have to say, and I have a right to not like what you have to say. Bigotry comes in many forms, and when it continues to be allowed, it becomes a cancer in the community.

[Number23]

92. I noticed you edited to remove your attempt to link to the hosts forum

And now have two posts from the same person in your OP. But this is just "removing a cancer" and not a) a really pathetic call out; b) an attempt to completely disrupt this forum; and c) your attempt to run TarheelDem off of DU. Right?

The great thing about this thread is that in your attempts to call out and harass another DUer, you put the spotlight on yourself and your own very bizarre and weak comments re: race around here. So, in that regard... good job.

[Aerows]

94. Thank you for kicking my comments

and displaying them in stark relief.

[Number23]

95. It has TRULY been my pleasure.

[Aerows]

96. I'm sure. n/t

[JI7]

31. how about those who defened this teacher on the "Ghetto" trick or treaters

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023944667

[Aerows]

36. How about them?

[JI7]

39. it should not be acceptable to defend racists like that

[Aerows]

50. Heaven forbid people speak up for pissing on other people's lawns

in open view.

If that somehow became alright with you, then we do have different views.

[JI7]

53. yeah, because that's what the "ghetto" kids teacher was really complaining about

[Aerows]

57. Did we read the same article?

I still wonder if you read that a man peed all over someone's lawn in public, then suddenly got astounded when some folks questioned the hygiene and propriety of that act.

I notice no one is saying he didn't just piss in someone's yard in full view.

[JI7]

58. so that justifies Racist attacks against kids ?

[Number23]

44. Oh, now that is truly interesting

Truly and honestly interesting.

Props to gollygee in that thread.

[JI7]

45. yup, and we see what this is really about

[Aerows]

54. What is it really about, exactly? n/t

[BainsBane]

37. That kind of distraction is the result of turning an important issue

about privacy vs. concerns over terrorism and an encroaching national security state into a simplistic obsession over individuals--either Snowden or Greenwald are saints or demons. Both could be horrible people and that would not change the fact the NSA is collecting unprecedented amount of information about Americans. For some reason Bart Gellman is never mentioned, as though Greenwald were the only person to ever report on Snowden. Greenwald and Snowden as individuals are far less important than the broader issue of the tension between national security and privacy, the Fourth Amendment and the power of the state. People, however, don't want to have that conversation. They insist on reducing it to personality contests and making it as meaningless as possible. I can't imagine why I would possibly care what Greenwald's views on immigration are. It says nothing about the central issues of encroaching government surveillance.

[PasadenaTrudy]

38. I thought

maybe the raccoons were back. But, yes, I agree with you....

[JI7]

43. and how about this ?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4377303

[Number23]

47. Oh, that's nothing

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Fqd7E85yB2QJ:sync.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php%3Faz%3Dshow_mesg%26forum%3D389%26topic_id%3D5098504%26mesg_id%3D5102487+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5004200
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4151386
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4333121
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=614374

And that's just with a 5 second search. Don't even get me started about what gets said in certain quarters here re: Middle East (particularly Israel) and Africa.

And I had one poster actually try to ACCOST me here when I noted that the folks railing at Tarheel are blind deaf and mute when it comes to what is said here about other parts of the world. Acted as though I'd made that up. I guess the folks that talk about South-bashing and the really narrow and ignorant depictions of the Middle East and other parts of the world here must be making all of that up too. Astonishing what people here choose to see and what they choose NOT to see.

[JI7]

48. there is a lot of hypocrisy

i had no problem with responses to tarheel when they made the orignal comment in that thread.

but people decided to call her out over something else and then they are using that comment from last year to justify it even if the issues are not related.

just look at the response by the op to my post about the "ghetto" kids.

[JI7]

51. wow, that person actually made that OP about overpopulation

i missed it but that was made some years back and allowed to stand. i guess it for some reason that was ok among those who are so offended .

[pintobean]

55. +1. That last line

applies to so many people on almost any subject.

[Aerows]

61. I due hope that you aren't attempting to guilt by association

those posters? Because that would be a low and dirty trick, and has nothing to do with those folks.

[Number23]

65. Between the typos and nonsensical statements, I don't understand what you're saying

And as someone who has posted a needless call out thread after someone else already did the same thing on the same post a few days ago, you don't really have a leg to stand on regarding "low and dirty tricks" so I hope that's not the point you are trying to argue.

What I really think is the genesis of all of this is that your post on this in ATA is being ignored and your post on this in the host forum was locked by Skinner. You could have just taken the hint by now but I guess you really, really want to make sure that TarheelDem is put in her place, huh?

[Aerows]

99. Yep, Number 23, I am indeed guilty of posting all of those statements.

That makes my admonishment of someone actually posting racist statements invalid, because somehow, someway I was associated with those posts.

Is this really where you want to go with this? You can't call a racist statement a racist statement without having everyone you have ever replied to being filed, formatted and attributed to you?

You have some excellent examples in your corner.

[Number23]

103. I don't even know what your post is SUPPOSED to mean

You appear to have lost the plot completely so I'll make this brief. You posted this OP in an attempt to call out and harass TarheelDem and it backfired. Spectacularly.

Judging by your own posts in the Ghetto Teacher thread that J17 linked to and your doubling down in THIS thread on the foolishness you posted in THAT thread despite having been told by five different posters that you were out of order, you should worry about the beam in your own eye before attempting to chastise others.

[Aerows]

104. LOL

I've lost the plot? Honey, it never was about some tangentially related posts to make me seem like I'm a racist. You did that. I pointed out clear evidence in a person's owned words that they made racist statements. Suddenly I am the problem?

[Number23]

106. And that's what makes all of this so spectacularly, awesomely hilarious

In your attempts to brand SOMEONE ELSE as racist, you didn't do jack shit but put the spotlight on your OWN racial cluelessness. I mean, if they gave awards for shooting yourself in your own ass, you'd have won it with this thread hands down.

And that's usually the problem with the "oh, isn't somebody here just AWFUL??!" bullshit, pointless, call out threads like this. In addition to firing up a needless witch hunt against another person, it's usually the people lining up faster than anybody to join in the hunt that wind up learning quick-fast that the shit lurking in their own closets is just as foul as the stuff that dwells in the one they're lining up to stone.

[Aerows]

110. If you have come to the conclusion that I am a racist

because I point out racism, then you really should join the Fox News team. You will fit right in there.

[Number23]

111. And with that, the spectacular Fail that is this thread is now complete.

Take a bow, hon. This will take years to topple from off the throne.

[JustAnotherGen]

115. from jag - You will understand this

Say "Fiddle Dee" and throw the mic my friend. Your post about watching our backs - it really is coming to a head isn't it?

[Vashta Nerada]

107. That poster isn't wrong.

[LittleBlue]

62. That second thread is as ugly as it gets

Freeper-ish. Have had that poster on ignore for a long time, he/she only posts poisonous propaganda.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

68. I think you ate wrong

[Sissyk]

63. Aerows, why did you link to a post from the host forum,

but not to the one you started in the host forum that Skinner locked?

Everyone in that thread (that you didn't post here) was supportive of you posting about this in a non-inflammatory way, and also told you it was best to ask Admin in ATA.

So, what did you think you would gain by linking to the alerted on thread and the host discussing it?

[Texasgal]

66. I'm so confused here.

Oh well, wouldn't be the first time.

[kestrel91316]

69. I've apparently been banned from a forum and can't see that first one.

I really don't care for DU these days.

[pintobean]

72. It's the hosts group

Only group and forum hosts have access to it.

FYI - If one gets blocked from a group, they can still read it, they can't post in it.

[Doctor_J]

71. The BOG has sort of run amok

they have nearly stopped discussing progressive politics altogether - almost all of the posts are defenses of Republican policies enacted by Turd Way Dems, or attacks on journalists who criticize the DINOs.

The end of the party is near. It was finished off not by the Clintons and Obama, but by the rank and file who gathered behind the DC DINOs.

[Hekate]

73. I know I'm going to regret this: But how the hell is this the BOG's fault?

[Doctor_J]

77. They have become irrational about Greenwald, Chomsky, Snowden, NSA spying, and so forth

anyone who criticizes the president's republican ideology is the target of passionate hatred and insults. The post in the OP (that everyone can read) is a dredging up of a 9-year-old rant by Greenwald for which he has since apologized (seemingly sincerely). The poster is a devoted Fan Club member who decided to seek out an old post for the express purpose of screaming at Greenwald, whom the BOG sees as an enemy of America because of his staunch opposition to the domestic spying program begun by Bush and continued by Obama.

[Electric Monk]

79. It isn't all BOG members, but there is some overlap. I think that there's a certain type

of person who uses the BOG as a sort of shield, or cover, or an excuse even, to justify getting away with some of their other postings.

They're really just here to hippie punch, but they "love Obama soooo much" that they're even better Democrats than people who may have some misgivings about certain policies (in their own eyes).

LoZoccolo was a prime example of just such a poster, for those who remember him.

You can't really blame the BOG for it all, but it does seem to attract those kinds of characters.

[Hekate]

81. Ah, so you disagree not just with the OP but with the whole concept....

... that there might be differing ways of looking at the multifaceted problems at hand.

Incidentally, I have never seen even one post "defending" the NSA. One non-BOG poster even went so far as to quantify this fact several weeks ago and post it in GD, apparently in the interests of fairness and honesty. (and no, I did not save the link for future reference)

Early on I myself pointed out that this level of spying is nothing new -- that the programs metasticized under Dubya after 9-11-2001 -- and that Big Brother evolved out of Big Business decades ago. I did not say I approved, far from it, but only that I did not quite understand the extreme shock and awe from the revelation of what to me (and a lot of others) was not new information. (Summary: I do not approve of spying on Americans. It is not new information that it is going on. Please tell me how we can rein it in.)

Along the same lines I (and others) pointed out that Snowden planned his exit very clumsily; that his motives may not have been as transparent as all that; and that regardless of his intentions he is now in the world of the exile and fugitive from harsh justice, under the dubious aegis of an oligarch who will drop him as soon as he is no longer useful. The guy could be Saint John the Baptist, but he is still going to be crucified. (Summary: Motives: unclear. Outcome for Snowden: probably not good, given past history.)

The entire discussion shortly got so acrimonious and personal that I gave up participating. Still -- despite claims to the contrary, "The BOG" does not "defend" NSA spying.

[Jamastiene]

80. K&R

The post you pointed out is truly disgusting. I cannot believe what passes on DU nowadays.

[blue neen]

93. It is with a heavy hand that you post this.

.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

100. Isn't that the truth?

[BlueCaliDem]

109. Bingo. eom

[Hippo_Tron]

102. Respectfully, I fail to see the problem...

I've been posting on this board for 10 years now. The center and the left have been arguing about this issue or that issue or this candidate or that candidate for the entire time I've been here. The quality of discussion and information on this board is infinitely better than any other I've come across. Having to listen to people say things I don't like, is a small price to pay for that.

At one point there were maybe half a dozen spin-off sites started by people who felt DU was too inclusive. They were all fairly mediocre. But if you're so intent on never having to be offended on a message board, go ahead and start your own site where only people you agree with are allowed to post and see how it goes.

[villager]

105. A handful of posters here have become as vicious and snarky as rightwing AM radio hosts

With, increasingly, the politics to match.

It's a sad thing to see.

[azurnoir]

112. wrong place Lol

[ecstatic]

113. the first link was in response to an important point

I wish we could get that many to march against failure to renew UI and the slashing of SNAP

What is YOUR response to that particular point, or do you have no response? My response would have been along the lines of what I always say: If your biggest concern is the NSA, you live a privileged life. Period. That's why libertarians are mostly white males. However, that doesn't change the fact that the NSA needs to be reined in.

[pintobean]

114. This is pretty fucked up.

It's the kind of shit that got Meta shut down. It has no place on DU. It's ugly.

[hrmjustin]

116. Locking- sorry but the gd hosts feel this is a meta call out and needs to be locked.

Again very sorry my friend.