History lesson for the crop of current paradoxical DU fascism lovers!

[go west young man]

If Hitler had turned his full army on to a full scale attack on the UK, as he originally intended to do during WW2, instead of getting bogged down during the Russian winter to the tune of 25 million Russian lives (over half the war dead of WW2), there would be a very good chance that all of us freedom loving people including all the current vitriolic anti-Russia crowd here at DU, would be speaking German. The Russian people are not just our friends. They are indirectly savoirs of American freedom. Research Operation Sea Lion, a bit of history. For had it gone the other way, none of this discussion on gay rights would matter.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/defeat/attack-russia.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II)
http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/71/why-did-hitler-attack-the-soviet-union-when-he-was-still-busy-fighting-the-unite
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120318135503AAAihPv

[Capt. Obvious]

1. That's just silly

We'd all be speaking Japanese.

[gollygee]

2. So what is this about?

Don't worry about Russia persecuting gay people because WWII?

[GoneOffShore]

3. Exactly the same.

[go west young man]

7. It's about the current US xenophobia

towards Russia. They do have some good qualities as well you know? And all the Russian people who have had it so hard for a century and finally get a shot at having the Olympics in their renewed country suddenly getting shit on by the West who they helped save. It's about the shame of it all here at DU.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. It's criticism of bigoted specific laws and policies of statements by Russian politicians

Calling objection to oppressive laws 'xenophobia' is disgusting.

[AgingAmerican]

93. A lot of it is criticism of Russia in general

...as if the Soviet Union were still in existence. Some of the idiot Republicans that I work with still refer to them as, "The soviets".

I tell them Russia is a right wing capitalist country now. Their heads explode.

[fleabiscuit]

95. lol, I bet their heads really do pop.

Thanks for that. It's amazing how similar their right-wing capitalists are to ours.

[gollygee]

12. I wish I still had the link

to the long article about how horrible the persecution of gay people in Russia is. I hope someone in this thread will give that link to you so you can read the article. This is not xenophobia. This is people who are horrified at the mistreatment of gay people in Russia, and it is at the point of persecution at this point. It's horrific.

[go west young man]

17. I don't doubt bad things as such go on.

I have been over 7 times and spent a year there. I never saw one act of violence. Lots of car crashes, but no beatings of any human being. I think it's all being pushed by the US media before the Olympics to denigrate Russia as a country. I also think it's backfired. Here's what the local gay bar in Sochi thinks. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/09/sochi-olympics-anti-gay-laws-mayak-bar-sochi

[Brickbat]

24. You realize that the plural of anecdote isn't data, right?

When you say, "I think it's all being pushed by the US media," what exactly are you saying is being pushed?

[go west young man]

30. The bandwagon of Russian hate.

[Bluenorthwest]

41. I love Russia. I love my own community in Russia so much I want them protected

by Russian law, not targeted by it. When the US had segregation, did you contend that opposing segregation was hatred of the US or simply opposition to horrific and bigoted laws?

[Iggo]

81. Well, sice you didn't see it, I guess it didn't happen.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[leftynyc]

35. Here's one of the many out there

http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201402/being-gay-in-russia

Thinking I have to be silent about what is happening today because of WWII is beyond stupid.

[gollygee]

36. That's the one I was thinking of

Thank you

[AgingAmerican]

94. Most of the xenophobia centers around Snowden

nt

[treestar]

42. That law regarding gay people

is pretty worthy of criticism. You don't think so?

[polly7]

14. No, that's an over-simplification.

Everyone hates bigotry, homophobia is disgusting everywhere .... but what seems like outright hatred for 'Russia' (which of course means the people of Russia) is almost unbelievable. It's easy to forget 143 million people who call Russia home need these Olympics every bit as bad as every other country does, and they have every right to them. The hate Russia posts are no better than those that call India the 'shit-bucket' of the world. So easy to hate a whole nation while ignoring the good they've done.

[Bluenorthwest]

20. The laws they passed just ahead of Olympics might have been a poor choice.

They passed those laws. To object to those laws is not to 'hate Russia' it is to love gay Russians. The people who passed those laws against Russian people do not hate bigotry, they just enshrined it into their law. To state 'everyone hates bigotry' when the discussion is about brand new anti gay LAWS PASSED is intellectually dishonest to the extreme.

[polly7]

33. Intellectually dishonest to claim everyone hates bigotry and homophobia?

I happen to choose to believe a nation of people aren't represented by their gov't and lawmakers any more in Russia than they are in Canada or the U.S.

Did you make the law that enables the killing of small children with drones every other week? SHAME ON YOU!!!

[Bluenorthwest]

45. People who pass anti gay laws are embracing homophobia and bigotry, nurturing it

so to claim they hate it is absolutely dishonest. You claim that law came from God? If everyone hated bigotry, there would be no bigotry. Those laws would not exist.
I oppose bigoted, anti minority laws, and you say shame on me? Sickening.

[polly7]

48. Twist what I said and spin away .....

it seems to make you feel better about yourself.

[Bluenorthwest]

51. If everyone opposes bigotry who makes bigoted laws in US, in Russia, anywhere?

Do they drop like dew from the heavens upon the earth? The law is being protested, deal with it.

[polly7]

52. The same laws that drop like dew to enable the killing of brown children overseas for a decade.

Deal with that ..... and if you're 'intellectually honest', claim it.

[Bluenorthwest]

56. What are you even raving about? Your claim was that 'everyone hates bigotry'.

I do not agree with you. I think some people are bigots.

[polly7]

61. Your claim that the people of Russia are responsible for the recent laws passed regarding

homosexuality.

And I know you got that ...., you just find it too uncomfortable to claim responsibility for something easily every bit as ugly. If the Russian people are to blame and should be punished - why shouldn't we in the west for our horrible acts? Matter of fact .... why should we even be allowed to attend a world event meant to bring people together, when at this very instant our militaries are causing misery overseas?

You took offense to my 'everyone' hates homphobia ..... obviously, everyone doesn't and I was wishfully speaking, but to justify the hatred for the Russian people that's been displayed here for days by somehow trying to place them responsible for making those ugly laws is beyond hypocritical, and ugly itself.

[Bluenorthwest]

116. The people I want protected are also Russians, those LGBT Russian people you seem to see as

disposable. I love Russian people, I despise these laws. You don't seem to care about the most vulnerable of the Russian people, you seem to support the powerful, ultra rich lawmakers and industrialists while you seem to think the LGBT people should have no one to speak for them, they should be props in the big show of your big tough oligarchs.
You are complaining that I speak out against anti gay laws. Think about how that looks. Those laws were made by people and those people are in fact responsible. Clearly, that does not mean all Russians support these laws. The fact that the people oppressed by the laws are Russians makes that hyper obvious.
What is ugly is a law that says a gay person has to lie to be safe. And who's next? Which minority will be the next on the block?
How far would you let the oppression go before you would deign to allow criticism of an anti minority policy?

[treestar]

44. But the law they have is a lot worse

It is somewhat Iran-like. Such a law would never be allowed in our country, regardless of whether there is still some anti-gay campaigning.

Also they lock people up in jail for self expression.

Those are some pretty bad things - the people of Russia need to take another look at who they elect for their leaders - if those laws pass, then aren't the people somewhat implicated? They chose people who would make such laws.

[polly7]

47. Yes, I KNOW those are really bad things.

Apply all of the really bad things to people then who've elected leaders doing horrible things while at the same time hosting a world event.

It's the OTT hatred for all things Russian I see here - ...... sort of reminiscent of the Freedom-Fries crap I saw a decade ago somewhere else. How anyone can demonize a whole nation of people for something they have no control over while declaring themselves better than, is beyond me.

[treestar]

60. I wouldn't demonize them, especially after all they have been through as a people

But they do seem to be sliding backward a bit, which seems a shame. This anti-gay thing a weird in a non-religious nation. Not so modern. And the Pussy Riot thing gives one pause. There are plenty of examples of the benefits of Freedom of Speech. They didn't have it for most of the 20th century - why not grab onto it now?

[polly7]

64. I think they 'are' grabbing onto it now, or at least trying.

Those recent laws passed, imo, are a result of that and lawmakers seeing people rising up. Did you see the post about the only gay bar in Sochi? It was great - I'll try to find it.

[tblue37]

102. Hosting the Olympics doesn't really help the people of a country. It just offers rich pickings for

the country's kleptocrats. Russia's oligarchs have made out like bandits. Oh, wait--they *are* bandits!

[JDPriestly]

19. I recommended this thread not because of what Russia is doing today. The pogrom

against gay people is horrible. But then it hasn't been that long since the US punished people for being gay. It happened at least during my lifetime.

I recommended this thread because it is a good reminder of the horrible slaughter that the Russian people sustained when Hitler invaded their country. It was a blood bath in many areas.

Roosevelt recognized the importance of keeping Hitler busy in Russia so that we could invade Europe from the South and West. Churchill was more savvy about the horrible things going on in Russia under Stalin.

Somehow today Americans have forgotten both how much we owe the Russians for the sacrifices they made during WWII and, equally if not more importantly, the horrible repression and misery of the Russian people when their own government especially under Stalin and his secret service inflicted on the Russian people.

This becomes apparent to me when people criticize Greenwald and Snowden about their roles in revealing the extent of the NSA surveillance. It seems that those criticizing Greenwald and Snowden and approving either vocally or tacitly the NSA illegalities and excesses either are ignorant with regard to the role of surveillance and secret laws in inflicting misery on not just the Russians but many in NAZI German or just don't get it.

So, we do owe much to the suffering of the Russian people, but we also need to look at their history in order to avoid making serious errors ourselves and ending up in the terribly repressive kind of government that they had to endure.

[reddread]

23. I did also, because of Matthew Shepard and the national disgrace of racism in the US

not even getting into the class bias of the majority.
at least we know what a choir of hypocrites sounds like.

[go west young man]

25. Thanks for the recommend.

I don't support what Russia is currently implementing law wise either, neither do my best friends, who are Russian, but the denigration of these people who have suffered so much for so long during their one moment for the Olympics really irks me at DU.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. And so the prize they get is to be allowed to oppress their own gay people?

We all know the history, our fathers fought that war, there are many films about Russia's heroic part in the war.
The siege of Stalingrad does not mitigate kicking your neighbor's teeth in for being gay. Sorry, but it does not excuse passing laws against entire communities.

[leftynyc]

39. Shepard's killers got life sentences (two if I'm remembering)

In Russia, they would get a parade. No comparison whatsoever.

As far as the totally nonsensical thought that because I think greenwald is an asshole that I MUST support the NSA is simplistic thinking that is beneath what should be allowed on DU.

[go west young man]

76. I've seen over 500 posts like yours on DU

in the last few weeks, but I've yet to see one from a person who has actually claimed to live or have an extended visit there. Not one in two weeks of Russian slander. I've spent plenty of time in Voronezh and Moscow. I've never seen a single fight. Ever. By anybody. I saw people of all persuasions playing, laughing, drinking, and doing essentially what we do in the USA.

[leftynyc]

91. Sorry - my family got thrown out of Russia

a very long time ago and I have no desire to visit the motherland that threw them out. You do realize it's possible to have no problem with the Russian people and still think the government deserves zero support.

So the fact you haven't seen anything means it's not there. That's as simplistic as what you're claiming the rest of us are doing.

I mean, why would I support a government that did this merely to embarrass our President:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/olympics-fourth-place-medal/russian-s-olympic-cauldron-torchbearers-have-controversial-ties-to-president-obama-202816634.html;_ylt=A0LEVxVlsvVSbSgA43lXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByMG04Z2o2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--


Other than hoping all the athletes stay safe all I have to say is Fuck Russia

[Lost_Count]

4. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot...

Step 1: Alternate potential military strategies of WWII

Step 2: ?????

Step 3: Profit...

[Adrahil]

43. This all about talking up the glorious endeavors of Comrade Putin to restore the glories of the

Soviet empire.

Fuck Putin and the Bear/Tiger/Dragon he rode (barechested) in on.

And Stalin was at least as much as a prick as Hitler was. So fuck him too.

[GoneOffShore]

5. That was then. This is now.

[bemildred]

6. Correct. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

8. So because of WW2 Russia is allowed to hate gay people?

Hard to follow such crazed and poisonous thinking. Perhaps you need to hydrate, have a glass of water and see if you feel better.

[go west young man]

10. Russia doesn't hate gay people.

Bahrain and Saudi Arabia hate gay people. Did you refuse to fill up your car today in protest?

[reddread]

15. people reheating the Cold War dont love gay rights

they love to feign superiority while hating the chosen targets of the NSA.
LITERALLY dancing to the tune of their cable networks.
What did Saudi Arabia ever do to US?

[Bluenorthwest]

38. Then why did they pass those laws?

'Mommy, the Sultan is more of a bigot than I am'.
Russia should repeal those laws at once, during the Olympics. Because the laws define the parameters of their culture. If they don't like the criticism, change the laws or just fuck off. Criticism of hate laws will not end to please your need to promote 'the games'.

[reddread]

50. Prop 8?

disregard that snark.
nice glass house there.

[Bluenorthwest]

53. And I fought loudly agains that law as well, until it was gone. And gone it is.d

You on the other hand support this Russian law which is in fact worse than Prop 8. You are here defending it. I'm consistent, you are highly selective.
Russia should repeal it's anti gay laws too. Join me in pressing them to do so!

[smokey nj]

55. NOBODY here defended or justified Prop 8 and its proponents were criticized harshly.

[reddread]

63. just own what your country is proven capable of

if youre gonna dis another that may be on the same path a few years removed.
its much more a case of dancing to the tune of NSA applied pressure and propaganda than it is
fighting for what is truly right.
its bogus.
but if it feels good...

[smokey nj]

65. I own it and fight it every day.

I don't defend the horrible things done the US government.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. SCOTUS invalidated Prop 8

In Russia it's against the law for a gay person to say he is normal. Is that okay? Really???

[smokey nj]

70. Apparently it is because the US government does horrible things.

[reddread]

74. do you really think the US Propaganda complex is pushing their antagonism for the sake of gay rights

seriously. Prop 8 was the work of US voters. CALIFORNIA voters.
just because the federal protections took over doesnt wash the hands of the filthy.
Self righteousness that ignores the brutal treatment of homosexuality by countries NOT
under fire from the NSA complex LOOKS A LITTLE SUSPECT.
got me?

[go west young man]

77. Putin most likely did it for callus political reasons.

Most likely to appease the church which is very powerful there unfortunately. You see how that works. Just like in the US our political leaders do things to placate the backwards regressive orthodox churches to get votes. It doesn't mean the Russian people deserve the scorn.

[Bluenorthwest]

115. The Russian people deserve to be free to be who they are, not forced into closets by law.

The people who support his law totally deserve scorn, those who oppose it are heroes. The worst are the excuse makers, the rationalizers, the deflectors.

[go west young man]

84. People who live in glass houses...

shouldn't throw hell fire missiles from drones. Maybe all American should "fuck off", as you say, too.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

104. A great many Russians hate gay people.

Fewer than in some countries; more than in many others.

[Le Taz Hot]

11. Was this before or after Stalin had all the

Generals and other military officers with actual battle experience offed because he was a paranoid, sadistic, stupid piece of shit? May I remind you that Stalin also made nice with Hitler right up until the time he finally got a clue that Hitler was playing him? And the Russian military would have also been much stronger had Stalin not decided to invade Finland at a very crucial time and in which he lost hundreds of thousands of troops in an unnecessary war of aggression.

And we won't even get to the Stalin purges in which intellectuals, (perceived) political enemies, HOMOSEXUALS, Jews, and other non-desirables were systematically killed before, during, and after WWII. Estimates are from 10 to 20 million, having nothing to do with WWII and everything to do with the fact that Stalin was just as ruthless as Hitler.

Fuck revisionist history.

". . . none of this discussion on gay rights would matter." NOW we have the real agenda, don't we? You can take your pro-Stalinist POV and, well, I can't finish this sentence without getting in trouble . . .

[go west young man]

18. I'm no fan of what Stalin did. He was a bastard.

They were all deceiving each other for their own self interest. hell even Churchill lied to help Roosevelt win the right wing congress's support. But had that bastard Stalin not existed we may all be speaking german. It's not revisionist in any way. It happened and all you need to do is pick up a history book to know it. Revisionism would be saying it didn't happen.

[Le Taz Hot]

31. It's cherry-picking and amateur speculation,

and I'm being real generous here. This is all based on your apparent agenda of downplaying the LEGAL discrimination and persecution of gays in Russia. Ain't nothing going to make that stank smell good.

[treestar]

46. We would not be speaking German

Ridiculous. Churchill and Roosevelt are in no way comparable to Stalin. The Russians have often put the world at odds and have had a real totalitarian government - they are like the Germans in that regard, and have a lot of progress to make. It is not "hate" towards them to feel sorry for their state of affairs - they have plenty of modern examples and little excuse for returning to totalitarian ways now.

[go west young man]

82. You are aware that if Hitler took Britain

he would have wrapped up Europe and D-Day could have never taken place? The US would have never been able to resupply the British , the Middle East and North Africa also would have fallen to the Germans cutting of oil supplies to the West and Hitler would have become strong enough to control the world and defeat the US. That's what would have happened if it were not for the deaths of 26 million Russians.

[jeff47]

101. You are aware that we can invade a country without Britain, right?

Your thesis is we couldn't have invaded Europe without Britain acting as a giant aircraft carrier.

Well, lets go take a gander at the OTHER side of WWII. Didn't have a "Britain" to base our invasions from. But I guess it's good to know that Okinawa was never invaded. .

the Middle East and North Africa also would have fallen to the Germans

You should probably look up the North Africa campaign. Especially the dates.

[treestar]

111. That is I am sure highly debatable

How many Germans were there? Not enough to hang onto their grandiose plans about how much territory they were entitled to rule.

[Make7]

114. Oil Production World Summary 1940-2030

Last edited Mon Feb 10, 2014, 05:07 PM - Edit history (3)

The United States was the largest oil producer in the world during WWII by a very substantial margin.



http://www.energywatchgroup.org/fileadmin/global/pdf/2008-02_EWG_Oil_Report_updated.pdf

[independentpiney]

117. you're grasp of ww2 history is abysmal

you've made a fool of yourself on this thread.

[Codeine]

120. You've read just enough WW2 history to allow yourself to make sweeping,

uninformed speculations. You really think Sealion would have been any more successful than Barbarossa ended up being? Do you actually believe that the early success of the Nazi war effort against unprepared and ill-supplied forces caught off-guard represented any actual chance of them winning a continental+ conflict?

And without Stalin's purging of the Red Army and deal-making with Hitler the Soviets could have stopped the Nazis with far fewer casualties.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. " May I remind you..."

"May I remind you that Stalin also made nice with Hitler right up until the time he finally got a clue that Hitler was playing him?"

He actually waited longer than that. He went into a three day drunk after the invasion.

[Le Taz Hot]

100. Ah, I was shootin' from the hip this morning.

[Nye Bevan]

13. So why aren't the Germans, Italians and Japanese speaking English? (nt)

[go west young man]

21. Because we never took over their countries.

As Hitler would have done to ours.

[JDPriestly]

27. I don't know about Japan, but more and more Germans speak English.

Not all Germans speak English, but educated Germans generally do. That is my experience.

Over 90% of the people in Germany speak English as a second language. The majority of the German population can speak English by the young age of eight years old.

http://www.ask.com/question/what-percentage-of-people-in-germany-speak-english

[cali]

16. bullshit of the first order

I feel dumber just having read your OP

[go west young man]

22. Only an insult?

Ya gotta do better than that.

[Vashta Nerada]

32. I do too.

Especially this early in the morning.

[Vashta Nerada]

26. It's not xenophobia when one points out the homophobia of a country.

Thread fail.

[get the red out]

29. Putin

So does thinking Putin is a complete ass equal hating all the people of Russia? If so, it is incorrect.

[hrmjustin]

34. "DU fascism lovers" Are you kidding me?

Last edited Mon Feb 10, 2014, 11:51 AM - Edit history (1)

Because I and others here won't watch the Olympics we are fascism lovers?





On edit I pushed the rec button by accident.

[pampango]

37. I think we should thank Hitler, himself. Russia had signed a nonaggression pact with Germany in 1939

which lasted through Germany invasion and conquest of Poland (of which Russia was glad to take the eastern half, as a part of the pact) in 1939 and of Western Europe in 1940. Hitler had the entire power of his military aimed at the UK after the fall of France in June 1940. Russia made no effort to come to the aid of the UK by opening a second front or any other action.

If Hitler had not invaded Russia in 1941 (before the US was even in the war), there is no reason to believe that Russia would have ever fought against Germany to the benefit of the UK, France, the US or any other country. So we have Hitler to thank for the division of his military between east and west. Russia was fighting to save itself not to benefit anyone else.

...there would be a very good chance that all of us freedom loving people including all the current vitriolic anti-Russia crowd here at DU, would be speaking German. The Russian people are not just our friends. They are indirectly savoirs of American freedom.

Sounds like an American conservative talking about the French. How many times have I heard "The French ought to be eternally grateful to us. If it was not for the US, they would all be speaking German today."

For a time after WWII it was understandable that the French would be thankful to the Allies for their country's liberation, even though that was a consequence of the effort to defeat the Nazis rather than a goal itself. As the decades have gone by, however, it would be juvenile to expect modern French to be "eternally grateful" to the US for that. The liberation is a historical fact. It should be understood and appreciated. But then we all have to move on to the fact that the world changes and policies change. To bask in the glow of something that happened 70 years ago is detrimental if it distracts you from addressing modern problems.

The Russian people are not just our friends.

The Russian people should be our friends. Just like the Ukrainian people, the Chinese people, the Canadian people, ...

We should be much more concerned with the human rights, prosperity and friendship of the Russian people than we are in currying the favor or disfavor of whatever government is in power at any given point in time.

[Le Taz Hot]

58. See? You did that so much more

eloquently and scholarly than I did. Thank you for an excellent analysis.

[SidDithers]

40. And if my Aunt had balls, she'd be my Uncle...

Sid

[HappyMe]

49. Ridiculous.

[Starry Messenger]

54. While I appreciate any effort to highlight the WW2 achievements of the Soviets~

badly needed in this country...it is still possible to totally not support their present day virulent homophobia.

In fact, it is quite possible it is the destruction of their economy in the present that has led to the othering of gays in an effort to redirect populist outrage at poverty and inequality in their post-socialist country. It's still not excusable to support it just because Russia is doing or has done other things that we might appreciate.

[Trajan]

57. Well ... I guess I just had my malarkey thread of the day

What a bunch of fucking hooey ...

[Progressive dog]

59. If Hitler had had the shipping to get his army

to Britain, he would have invaded. He chose an air war because he had lots of planes but not enough boats.
Russia (USSR, Stalin) and Germany (Hitler) agreed to split Poland between them. They even signed a non aggression pact that divided Eastern Europe between them. Hitler attacked the Russians, they did not come rushing to our aid and they kept most of Eastern Europe as puppets for forty some years after they became "saviors of American freedom."

[treestar]

66. What is so silly about the premise is

they saved our freedom, why didn't they keep any for themselves? They lived in a totalitarian state for the next 50 years!

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Would you like that lesson to come from people like my dad

Who was on the ground, not as a GI, but as part of the Holocaust during WWII?

He would be the first to tell you that just because you did not see the NAZIS give their loving attentions to young Jewish kids, it did not mean it did not happen. (You said you have never seen this hate for gays)

You give me Sea Lion. I give you time magazine in the 1930s, describing Germany almost as a paradise. That same magazine ran horrified articles from Bergen Belsen et al a decade later. Think 1930s equivalent, I think dad, who passed a few years back would agree.

You know what never again means right? I don"the think you do.

By the way, it is not just the US, which is not a model of equality either, but every Western European nation (did you see the German uniforms? Now speak of irony). It is also civil rights groups.

Yes, Russia has some good aspects to it. Every country does. But right now it has a really nasty aspect to it. None of us imagined those laws. I once again refer you to Time.

Oh and like others, I hate revisionist history.

[Boom Sound 416]

67. I think some things are missing there

Like the fact the Japanese would have flanked the Russians had we not stopped them in the Pacific.

[independentpiney]

89. The Japanese wanted nothing to do with the Soviets after Kahlkin Gol in 1939.

Sucked for them to run into Georgi Zhukhov right out of the gate. It may have been a factor in their Pacific strategy, as they felt the US would be a weaker, less tenacious opponent

[Boom Sound 416]

90. I have to learn about that.

Perhaps you are correct.

I'm coming from the understanding that the Japanese wanted the same thing as hitler: Russian Black Gold

[independentpiney]

92. The wiki entry is well written and give a good summary

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol

[Boom Sound 416]

97. That IS interesting

I'm not sure I can completely get on board with the OP, but that's a twist in the history i did not know.

[malaise]

69. Not so sure about your conclusions but Russia did

defeat Hitler.

[NuclearDem]

72. Huh?

[Cali_Democrat]

110. LOL

[CJCRANE]

73. 8 U.S. States Have Anti-Gay Laws Strikingly Similar to Those in Russia

http://www.policymic.com/articles/81437/8-u-s-states-have-anti-gay-laws-strikingly-similar-to-those-in-russia

Excerpts:

"While the situation in Russia is dire, it's hardly the only place to have instituted a law banning "gay propaganda." In fact, as a map from the Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network illustrates, eight U.S. states — Alabama, Arizona, Mississippi, Louisiana, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas and Utah — have laws banning the promotion of homosexuality in schools."

...

"Let's be clear: the situation for LGBT individuals and allies in these eight states is nowhere near as perilous as that on the ground in Russia. For one thing, while the eight states' so-called "no promo homo" laws are preposterous, they're limited to restricting speech and instituting a chilling effect in schools. Even so, that doesn't excuse Americans from taking action against our own restrictive and intolerant policies, and setting an example for Russia and the world. Perhaps the Sochi Olympics can serve as a call to action not only against Russia's bigotry, but toward ensuring tolerance and freedom of speech both at home and around the world".

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. If I may

"Let's be clear: the situation for LGBT individuals and allies in these eight states is nowhere near as perilous as that on the ground in Russia. For one thing, while the eight states' so-called "no promo homo" laws are preposterous, they're limited to restricting speech and instituting a chilling effect in schools. Even so, that doesn't excuse Americans from taking action against our own restrictive and intolerant policies, and setting an example for Russia and the world. Perhaps the Sochi Olympics can serve as a call to action not only against Russia's bigotry, but toward ensuring tolerance and freedom of speech both at home and around the world".

[former9thward]

75. No one would be speaking German.

Your alternative WW II history is ridiculous. If Germany had conquered England there is not a chance it could have invaded the U.S.

[independentpiney]

79. Operation Sea Lion would have never worked

The Luftwaffe had failed to gain air superiority, the RN had full control of the channel, and the Kreigsmarine didn't have enough transports to land and supply a viable invasion force. Every legitimate historian agrees on this, you have to turn to revisionists to get a contrary opinion. That's not to say the UK might not have been forced to sue for peace, but they were not going to be taken by an amphibious landing.

[Chathamization]

108. Pretty much. If Hitler had gone forward with Sea Lion, it would have just meant an enormous

amount of dead Germans. The Allies were in a much better position going into D-Day, and even then they thought it might be a disaster.

And even if they took Britain, the idea that they would have had no trouble with a cross Atlantic invasion is insane. Apparently the US, with a much better navy, would have had trouble launching one to liberate the UK (with the local population most likely rising up against the Nazis), but Germany would have no trouble launching one to conquer the America's (where the local population would be shooting at them from the first step they took).

[independentpiney]

118. And the allies had much experience with amphib ops before D-Day

in North Africa, Italy and the Pacific as well as in WW! at Gallipolli. They had learned from their successes and failures. The idea of a successful cross Atlantic invasion of the US is ridiculous.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

83. I guess we should ignore Custer's self aggrandizing campaign against the Native American...

I guess we should ignore Custer's self aggrandizing campaign against the Native American because he distinguished himself during the Civil War.

[L0oniX]

87. They were terrorists ...doncha know.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

85. Someone is a fascist because they are aginst Putin's gov?

That makes no sense.

[L0oniX]

86. Assassination lovers too?

[NuclearDem]

88. Fail.

Almost as stupid as the right wingers holding D-Day over France's head when they opposed the Iraq War.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. Hmmm, I would guess

this did not go as planned.

[OilemFirchen]

98. And if Mussolini had prevailed...

we'd all be fascists.

Ahhhh... what could have been...

[Iggo]

99. Hating Russian homophobia is loveing Nazi fascism?

Did you stretch before attempting that twist?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

103. Bilge.

Yes, there is a good chance that if Hitler had not broken his pack with Russia WWII might have gone very differently.

No, that doesn't mean there isn't a very large amount of homophobia in Russia.

And it certainly doesn't make it OK to call people standing up to that homophobia and calling it out "fascism lovers".

[Pretzel_Warrior]

105. oops. looks like you can't participate in your Russia with Love thread anymore.

so let me take this moment to say Hitler was well aware that Russia was going to fight them at some point. He chose to break their treaty first, and he still lost.

Russia was busy persecuting Jews while Germany was recovering from WW1. That is why so many came to the U.S. from Russia.

Quit trying to rebrand Russia as something better than what it has been.

[dionysus]

106. go east young man, to meet the czar...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

107. Leave Putin alone./nt

[Cali_Democrat]

109. If Germany did take over the UK and force them to speak German

How exactly would they have crossed the Atlantic Ocean and forced Americans to speak German?



Germany was in no way capable of invading the US.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

112. 75 - 80% of all German military casualties were on the Eastern front.

[11 Bravo]

113. Also FDR and Churchill didn't look so great without shirts

[JoeyT]

119. Sorry, that argument doesn't work for the US,

and it isn't going to hold water for Russia.

"We saved you all decades ago, so we're immune to criticism until the end of time!" is a right wing nationalistic argument.

Yes, we have a handful of red baiters, but they're easy to spot and easier to ignore. The criticism of Russia on LGBT rights (And other things: Widespread attitudes toward women, for starters) is warranted.

[Make7]

121.

[idendoit]

122. And if Xerxes had not listened to Aretmisia.....

...we might be speaking Persian.

[kwassa]

123. WWII was over the minute the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor.

They never had a chance after that.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

124. Logicophobia.

[XRubicon]

125. Here's some advice young man

"You can't make cents if you don't make sense"

Bo Burnham - 3.14 Apple Pi

[UTUSN]

126. Well, I love TCHAIKOVSKY more than anybody, but that don't make me love PUTIN!1 n/t