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G_j

(40,367 posts)
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 03:23 PM Feb 2014

The World's Largest Solar Plant Started Creating Electricity Today

Take 300,000 computer-controlled mirrors, each 7 feet high and 10 feet wide. Control them with computers to focus the Sun's light to the top of 459-foot towers, where water is turned into steam to power turbines. Bingo: you have the world's biggest solar power plant, the Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System.

Long-mired by regulatory issues and legal tangles, the enormous solar plant–jointly owned by NRG Energy, BrightSource Energy and Google–opened for business today.

From the official news release:

The Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System is now operational and delivering solar electricity to California customers. At full capacity, the facility's trio of 450-foot high towers produces a gross total of 392 megawatts (MW) of solar power, enough electricity to provide 140,000 California homes with clean energy and avoid 400,000 metric tons of carbon dioxide per year, equal to removing 72,000 vehicles off the road.

Sprawling across a staggering 5 square miles of federal land near the California-Nevada border, it looks goddamn beautiful. Just look at these amazing images.:

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

more images:
http://gizmodo.com/the-worlds-largest-solar-plant-started-creating-electr-1521998493?utm_campaign=socialflow_gizmodo_facebook&utm_source=gizmodo_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

110 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The World's Largest Solar Plant Started Creating Electricity Today (Original Post) G_j Feb 2014 OP
We are One with the Infinite Sun Berlum Feb 2014 #1
aho G_j Feb 2014 #3
K&R! There should be hundreds more in the pipeline (no pun intended). Enthusiast Feb 2014 #2
Drove by it last year and it is truly amazing to see! zappaman Feb 2014 #4
We're seriously thinking about panelling our roof......we've got great south and west roof space for a kennedy Feb 2014 #5
Geez! Who has the Windex contract to clean all those mirrors????? benld74 Feb 2014 #6
Ray Nagan? Cheviteau Feb 2014 #39
Great job security though. RGinNJ Feb 2014 #7
Wonderful! Safe and uses land that is not useful to us for other purposes. JDPriestly Feb 2014 #8
Why does land have to be useful? hunter Feb 2014 #24
Where would people park? Vinnie From Indy Feb 2014 #28
Under the shade created by the pole-mounted panels LondonReign2 Feb 2014 #31
That's a great idea. In the South, we really need some shade to park in. Our cars loudsue Feb 2014 #57
All ready in existence in Germany. pangaia Feb 2014 #89
We've already got quite a few parking lot solar instalations in our community. hunter Feb 2014 #40
Picture at the link awoke_in_2003 Feb 2014 #59
Have u been out West? EX500rider Feb 2014 #32
Yeah, I've wandered it, quite a bit actually. hunter Feb 2014 #35
The entire US could be run off a relatively small area of desert.. EX500rider Feb 2014 #43
I don't want energy to run the entire US as it is. hunter Feb 2014 #45
Yes we all can't wait to go back to being hunter-gather's.. n/t EX500rider Feb 2014 #46
Um, okay. hunter Feb 2014 #47
Well maybe i mis-understood you.. EX500rider Feb 2014 #49
Lowerng energy use, expanding wilderness, controlling our own reproduction, is not "primitive." hunter Feb 2014 #50
Well in another 1,000 years i think we will be there... n/t EX500rider Feb 2014 #66
Like any number of Star Trek episodes cindge Feb 2014 #82
The earth of Star Trek TOS and TNG *was* the techno-utopia. hunter Feb 2014 #92
You should be pimping FUSION POWER snooper2 Feb 2014 #56
I think cheap fusion would be an environmental catastrophe worse than coal. hunter Feb 2014 #63
that is nice and all but not going to happen...You'll just have to go off-the-grid by yourself snooper2 Feb 2014 #64
Sounds like a fairly Luddite position. EX500rider Feb 2014 #98
Yes horrible it would be...lights and running water for everybody...n/t EX500rider Feb 2014 #100
What's keeping people from lights and running water now? hunter Feb 2014 #102
It's because of mismanagement and corruption. EX500rider Feb 2014 #103
Solar and wind powered water pumps are as simple as it gets. hunter Feb 2014 #104
That's a nice start,,, EX500rider Feb 2014 #107
How fair is it that many have this while others starve? hunter Feb 2014 #108
"My only agreement in your list is clothes dryers and refrigerators." EX500rider Feb 2014 #109
That's an easy thing to power with solar and wind too. hunter Feb 2014 #110
Have you been in Florida? Plenty of sun, but corrupt, disgusting politicians like gov. Rick Scott AikidoSoul Feb 2014 #97
Yes i live here thanks for the update. n/t EX500rider Feb 2014 #99
++++ swilton Feb 2014 #76
I am sure the EiR did not use *useless* anywhere in the report. nadinbrzezinski Feb 2014 #67
What happens when it gets dark? Bandit Feb 2014 #9
How do transistor radios work when you close the window? nt valerief Feb 2014 #12
Not a great analogy. former9thward Feb 2014 #13
The better analogy is how do transistor radios work when you stop broadcasting. Gravitycollapse Feb 2014 #48
"The main advantage of this type of solar plant is that it’s easy to store energy.." G_j Feb 2014 #14
Thermal mass. DeSwiss Feb 2014 #16
Molten salt is one answer solarhydrocan Feb 2014 #22
Brilliant Mr. Mike.... diverdownjt Feb 2014 #55
Everything is the same except there is no light for about 12 hours XRubicon Feb 2014 #72
it IS beautiful! Whisp Feb 2014 #10
cant wait until all those mirrors iamthebandfanman Feb 2014 #11
+1 Blue_Tires Feb 2014 #44
Probably not. MrModerate Feb 2014 #74
When it's dark . . . OldRedneck Feb 2014 #15
I believe that they have now found ways to store solar energy for short periods of time davidpdx Feb 2014 #94
They should put solar panel . . . aggiesal Feb 2014 #17
The Germans have already done this! So much for American Exceptionalism! Dustlawyer Feb 2014 #30
That's a great idea! calimary Feb 2014 #34
And covering every parking lot Politicub Feb 2014 #37
Seems overly complicated...why use water? dpbrown Feb 2014 #18
Mirror cleaning OnlinePoker Feb 2014 #19
Huge thermal plant opens as solar industry grows ProSense Feb 2014 #20
I just have one question, thought. Does this generate more or less electrical power than TrollBuster9090 Feb 2014 #21
Concentrating solar is FAR better. AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #27
As it turns out . . . MrModerate Feb 2014 #75
Drove by this a few weeks ago Egnever Feb 2014 #23
AWESOME! Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #25
FOR NOW. AtheistCrusader Feb 2014 #26
Conveniently located near a rare earth mine. nt bemildred Feb 2014 #29
Amazing what happens when corporate whores are driven into splinter party status Jack Rabbit Feb 2014 #33
I don't get your point. This plant is owned by corporations. El_Johns Feb 2014 #53
Your critique would make more sense if you assume that I want a Communist revolution Jack Rabbit Feb 2014 #73
There was no critique. I simply didn't understand what you meant by: El_Johns Feb 2014 #78
Oh, that's what you want to know Jack Rabbit Feb 2014 #91
I love you, Jack Rabbit. <3 love_katz Feb 2014 #101
This is so cool! Politicub Feb 2014 #36
Whoooo hoooo and its about time! marble falls Feb 2014 #38
From what I am hearing Keefer Feb 2014 #41
that's a problem G_j Feb 2014 #42
Damn you, for bringing the downside nadinbrzezinski Feb 2014 #68
Nice cat avatar XRubicon Feb 2014 #88
Magnificent! Just purely magnificent! Firebrand Gary Feb 2014 #51
Cool! That said, I'd prefer more decentralized generation Recursion Feb 2014 #52
Just doing some jokey non-linear thinking kjones Feb 2014 #54
Too much stupid... must resist.. blacking out now... I am the sole survivor of this thread... XRubicon Feb 2014 #80
Well, I do have a peculiar taste in humor. nt kjones Feb 2014 #95
World’s Largest Solar Thermal Plant Uses As Much Water As Two Holes On Nearby Golf Course ProSense Feb 2014 #58
Parakeet nightmare Aldo Leopold Feb 2014 #60
Good god, sounds like a bunch of binary thinking conservatives in here. Thor_MN Feb 2014 #61
Not only in the middle od the night. Edim Feb 2014 #62
I'm sure the people that decided to spend the money to build this had no clue. Thor_MN Feb 2014 #69
I agree that it doesn't have to. Edim Feb 2014 #70
If you are concerned about the costs, buy yourself a generator. Thor_MN Feb 2014 #71
ya, I seen this driving to vegas last year ujs1500 Feb 2014 #65
Is there any way they can do this without using water? Vashta Nerada Feb 2014 #77
70% of earths surface is water... XRubicon Feb 2014 #79
Yeah. Okay. Vashta Nerada Feb 2014 #81
We are literally surrounded by water XRubicon Feb 2014 #83
What? Vashta Nerada Feb 2014 #85
Ok sorry, I thought you were one of the luddites.. XRubicon Feb 2014 #86
Oh noes…Won't somebody think about the little nuke's protons and neutrons... Tikki Feb 2014 #84
Awesome debunkthis Feb 2014 #87
It's a bird killer. I hate bird killers! jeanliberty90 Feb 2014 #90
More! Loaded Liberal Dem Feb 2014 #93
"Creating"? Helen Borg Feb 2014 #96
Thanks for posting, I never even knew about this WhaTHellsgoingonhere Feb 2014 #105
I've been following this since the project was in the planning stages. NaturalHigh Feb 2014 #106

a kennedy

(29,655 posts)
5. We're seriously thinking about panelling our roof......we've got great south and west roof space for
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 04:07 PM
Feb 2014

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
8. Wonderful! Safe and uses land that is not useful to us for other purposes.
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 04:28 PM
Feb 2014

Protects the environment. I'm proud to be a Californian today!

hunter

(38,311 posts)
24. Why does land have to be useful?
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 05:33 PM
Feb 2014

I wish we'd leave the deserts alone.

This monstrosity makes me sad.

Parking lots and rooftops are true "wastelands."

That's where solar ought to be installed, and it's close to where the power is used, too, minimizing transmission losses.



loudsue

(14,087 posts)
57. That's a great idea. In the South, we really need some shade to park in. Our cars
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 01:27 PM
Feb 2014

get so burned-up inside, parked out of doors.

hunter

(38,311 posts)
40. We've already got quite a few parking lot solar instalations in our community.
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:20 PM
Feb 2014

The shade is nice. It keeps the inside of cars from turning into furnaces.

Honestly, I'd rather we could do away with personal automobiles, with a population migration back to higher density walkable cities having good public transportation systems, but until then, parking lot solar is an ideal setup for electric vehicles. Drive to work, plug your car in to be recharged by the sun directly above, drive home.

It would be an excellent employee benefit for any business that actually pays enough that employees could afford electric vehicles.

hunter

(38,311 posts)
35. Yeah, I've wandered it, quite a bit actually.
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:09 PM
Feb 2014

Let's say these things are successful. How much of the "Great Plains" are left? Oh yeah, covered with corn, wheat, and soybeans...

That's why these things suck. I enjoy the deserts as they are.

Humans, especially industrial age humans, have a remarkable ability to take everything for themselves.


EX500rider

(10,842 posts)
43. The entire US could be run off a relatively small area of desert..
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 07:04 PM
Feb 2014

....of 'course we can keep on with the fossil fuels and then we'll have LOTS more desert.

hunter

(38,311 posts)
45. I don't want energy to run the entire US as it is.
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 08:38 PM
Feb 2014

I want to create a society where we don't need crap like this, fossil fuels, or nuclear power.

I want to create a society where land isn't being "developed" any longer, instead it's being undeveloped and restored to a natural state.

EX500rider

(10,842 posts)
49. Well maybe i mis-understood you..
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 12:52 AM
Feb 2014

..but it sounded like you wanted a more primitive existence... least that's what you get without the power to run the modern world.

hunter

(38,311 posts)
50. Lowerng energy use, expanding wilderness, controlling our own reproduction, is not "primitive."
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 01:36 AM
Feb 2014

What we've got now is primitive. Our "consumer" society is very twentieth, even nineteenth century "primitive."

A society worthy of the 21st century has people living in comfortable, attractive, walkable cities, using less energy, with no need for automobiles. I'm not talking about dense cities like Manhattan, but pleasant places with parks, private garden courtyards, sidewalk cafes, and so on. The high speed communication infrastructure would be "free," in the same sense sidewalks are free.

Perhaps the people would be mostly vegetarian so we wouldn't need to grow all that grain for factory farmed meat and dairy products. Our beef cattle would be grass fed, chickens open range, and dairy animals not crammed together on great hills excrement.

It would be a much more sophisticated lifestyle, easier on the earth, more comfortable, and much less "primitive" than what we've got now.

Organic farming as it is practiced now is a much more advanced technology than simply poisoning pests and "fertilizing" with chemicals. An organic farmer has to have a much more intricate understanding of biology than much of the farming we suffer now.

And so on.



cindge

(15 posts)
82. Like any number of Star Trek episodes
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 08:49 PM
Feb 2014

Where the planet/society of the future has those things- parks, arts, meaningful work, healthcare, food for everyone, etc. I don't know if we'll ever get there, but it sure is nice to think about.

Unfortunately, usually in the ST episodes, there is always some downside to whichever Utopia the Enterprise has visited that day...

hunter

(38,311 posts)
92. The earth of Star Trek TOS and TNG *was* the techno-utopia.
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 11:46 PM
Feb 2014

I doubt anyone on that earth was hungry, homeless, or without proper medical care, not unless they tried really, really hard to avoid it.

In fact, in The Original Series, the earth is so plentiful, peaceful, and to some people downright boring that they'll volunteer to put on a red shirt and fly off into deep space with that maniac James T. Kirk.

hunter

(38,311 posts)
63. I think cheap fusion would be an environmental catastrophe worse than coal.
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 04:03 PM
Feb 2014

Industrial humanity would literally consume everything that remains of this natural world our species evolved in.

Limits are a good thing when it comes to a species like ours.

Honestly, I think that's one of the better reasons for opposing nuclear power, not because it's terribly dangerous (compared to coal it is not), but because it works.

I don't want to live in a consumer paradise of low density suburbs, big box stores, busy streets crowded with automobiles, and parking lots.

There are much better possible futures, futures where humans exist within and as part of a natural environment, true to our own nature and not driven by an unyielding unsustainable inhumane economic ideology.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
64. that is nice and all but not going to happen...You'll just have to go off-the-grid by yourself
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 04:12 PM
Feb 2014

Soon as we move and have a little bigger garage I'll be working on a rat rod myself--


Don't worry, it will have LOTS of recycled parts



EX500rider

(10,842 posts)
98. Sounds like a fairly Luddite position.
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 07:14 PM
Feb 2014

"true to our own nature " I don't think we can be anything but.

hunter

(38,311 posts)
102. What's keeping people from lights and running water now?
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 09:25 PM
Feb 2014

Hint: It's not because we don't have a Mr. Fusion in every kitchen.


EX500rider

(10,842 posts)
103. It's because of mismanagement and corruption.
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 09:37 PM
Feb 2014

However the cheaper electricity gets the more people can afford it.

hunter

(38,311 posts)
104. Solar and wind powered water pumps are as simple as it gets.
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 10:06 PM
Feb 2014

Pump the water from the ground or across the land, then store the water for when the sun is not shining or the wind is not blowing.

Same with reading lights and smart-phone chargers. Simple. No giant battery banks, no great electric grids required.

We've no need for fusion to change things. We can make a better world now.




EX500rider

(10,842 posts)
107. That's a nice start,,,
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 11:24 PM
Feb 2014

,,,,,but people want AC/heat, TV's, DVD players, internet/computers, washer/dryers, refrigeration, etc..

hunter

(38,311 posts)
108. How fair is it that many have this while others starve?
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 12:54 AM
Feb 2014

Even here in the USA.

Lack of energy is not the problem. Inequality of wealth is.

Homes can be built or modified so they require very little heating or cooling. I happen to live in a mild climate where heating and cooling are not necessities. My parents and a few siblings live in places where people don't even bother to buy much glass because shutters and screens will do. They don't have heat or AC. Nevertheless, there are people in Scandinavian nations living in well insulated homes where normal day-to-day human activity is enough to keep their homes comfortably warm, even without district heating.

AC? That could be local solar. Ice is easy to make and store. Or maybe you put pipes deep in the ground and use heat pumps.

My only agreement in your list is clothes dryers and refrigerators. My wife likes her clothes dryer and her refrigerator. I've lived without either, as a kid and as an adult. From laundromat to wash your clothes in a tub and hang them on trees, and everything in between.

My parents are basically artists and natural philosophers (modern term: scientists.) Whatever else they happen to be doing for money that ought to explain everything.

I do confess washing machines and clothes dryers are much easier. I have the money, I use them myself.

I still don't care about refrigerators. The dogs will eat any leftovers that won't keep until breakfast. If the dogs don't eat it, then we have a compost heap. My wife's opinion is to keep the refrigerator. She's paid and pays for it, what can I say? No, hell no, there is no strict accounting for anything in our household but there it is. I can live without a refrigerator, she'd rather not.

I think as a kid and young adult I was fortunate to live well outside the boundaries of any conventional middle or upper class U.S.A. "comfort zone." It's been my very great privilege in life to be an ordinary person of this earth.


EX500rider

(10,842 posts)
109. "My only agreement in your list is clothes dryers and refrigerators."
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 01:24 AM
Feb 2014

Internet and computers seem to be on your list too.

hunter

(38,311 posts)
110. That's an easy thing to power with solar and wind too.
Sun Feb 16, 2014, 01:39 AM
Feb 2014

If the electric company disconnects me tomorrow, I'll still be online.

Yep, I know all those internet servers are using a lot of energy, but not so much as the electric steel mills, aluminum refineries, automobiles, and big box stores.

AikidoSoul

(2,150 posts)
97. Have you been in Florida? Plenty of sun, but corrupt, disgusting politicians like gov. Rick Scott
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 07:09 PM
Feb 2014

put the stick in the spokes for every attempt to develop solar here.

It is, he is....DISGUSTING.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
67. I am sure the EiR did not use *useless* anywhere in the report.
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 04:42 PM
Feb 2014

This attitude is exactly what bugs back country rural citizens and why we get talks of secession from mostly urban counties every so often. Yup, that talk just started in mine, like schedule.

There has to be a balance between the needs of urban and rural areas. Though in reality there will be losers in this, and it will be rural nine out of ten times. (It's got to do with politics and influence and yes, some racism)

But I am positive the environmental impact report did not use the words useless land, or useless desert anywhere. I have read a few of those, and that is not a usual phrase. You too can download then and read them. They are a cure for insomnia by the way.

You might think it is useless, but it is a biome preceding humans on this earth by millions of years, and our actions on land have actually accelerated the process of desertification.

G_j

(40,367 posts)
14. "The main advantage of this type of solar plant is that it’s easy to store energy.."
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 04:58 PM
Feb 2014

The plant, called Ivanpah, is funded by Google, NRG, and BrightSource, a company that specializes in what’s called concentrated solar power, or CSP, a method of using focused sunlight to turn a steam generator. The technology isn’t new: a small test plant that uses mirrored troughs to heat oil-filled tubes has been running in California for 20 years. Going back further, you could point to the French inventor Agustin Mouchot, who experimented with solar powered steam engines in the 19th century, thinking we were about to run out of coal. The current batch of plants are huge—thousands of acres—and use computer-controlled mirrors to heat boilers that sit on top of towers. (You can take a virtual tour of Ivanpah's triple-tower array here.) Three giant CSP plants are scheduled to go online in the next few months, and the companies that have spent years and billions of dollars building them hope they’ll provide a valuable new source of renewable energy.

The main advantage of this type of solar plant is that it’s easy to store energy from it and save it for later use, something that will become more of an issue as we get more energy from windmills and solar panels. Energy from windmills and solar panels is cheaper, but it’s not always there when it’s needed: demand might be high on a windless or cloudy day, or low on a windy sunny one. A smarter power grid that can redirect power from renewable sources to where it’s needed can help cushion some of this streakiness, but we’re always going to need some reliable, always-available—the industry term is “dispatchable”—source of power. Right now that’s coal, gas, nuclear, and hydroelectric. The CSP industry is hoping solar can join that list, even providing power at night.

Ivanpah doesn’t have storage, but Brightsource says it’s looking into storage for future plants. Two other large plants currently under construction are being built with energy storage. A 280 megawatt plant under construction in Arizona stores excess heat in vats of molten salt, allowing it to provide energy six hours into the evening, when air conditioning use is highest. A 110 megawatt plant in Nevada promises 10 hours of storage.

It’s far cheaper to store energy in the form of heat than in a battery. A frequently cited comparison in the industry is that a thermos of coffee stores about the same amount of energy as a laptop battery, but one is $5 and the other is $150. With a CSP plant, when demand for energy is low, excess heat can be siphoned off and stored, then used to power steam generators when demand is high.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/09/28/solar-power-plant-in-the-mojave-could-power-140-000-homes.html

solarhydrocan

(551 posts)
22. Molten salt is one answer
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 05:23 PM
Feb 2014
Solar Two used molten salt, a combination of 60% sodium nitrate and 40% potassium nitrate, as an energy storage medium instead of oil or water as with Solar One. This helped in energy storage during brief interruptions in sunlight due to clouds.[1] The molten salt also allowed the energy to be stored in large tanks for future use such as night time—Solar Two had sufficient capacity to continue running for up to three hours after the sun had set

"We're proud of Solar Two's success as it marks a significant milestone in the development of large-scale solar energy projects," said then U.S. Energy Secretary Bill Richardson.
"This technology has been successfully demonstrated and is ready for commercialization. From 1994 to 1999, the Solar Two project demonstrated the ability of solar molten salt technology to provide long-term, cost effective thermal energy storage for electricity generation.", Boeing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Two


Next: Solar Hydrogen
Solar electrolysis = free hydrogen

Inside the Solar-Hydrogen House: No More Power Bills--Ever

A New Jersey resident generates and stores all the power he needs with solar panels and hydrogen

EAST AMWELL, N.J.—Mike Strizki has not paid an electric, oil or gas bill—nor has he spent a nickel to fill up his Mercury Sable—in nearly two years. Instead, the 51-year-old civil engineer makes all the fuel he needs using a system he built in the capacious garage of his home, which employs photovoltaic (PV) panels to turn sunlight into electricity that is harnessed in turn to extract hydrogen from tap water...



Civil engineer Mike Strizki has lined the roof of his garage with 56 photovoltaic panels to harvest the free and abundant energy of the sun--even in New Jersey.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hydrogen-house/

XRubicon

(2,212 posts)
72. Everything is the same except there is no light for about 12 hours
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 06:45 PM
Feb 2014

Last edited Fri Feb 14, 2014, 10:05 PM - Edit history (1)

Oh, also they can store energy by making hydrogen gas while it is light or heat salt molten (it stays hot like a thermos with coffee) then use the heat to boil water all night long to make electricity. They could also transport hydrogen to other locations and you could use it in your car.

Edit to add, your car is a gun so you are in charge of not killing anyone with it, just sayin.

 

MrModerate

(9,753 posts)
74. Probably not.
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 07:46 PM
Feb 2014

Photovoltaic panels are extremely energy-intensive to manufacture, and the process is toxic as hell, involving a lot of process water. For large installations, the mirror/steam turbine technology is superior in just about every way.

 

OldRedneck

(1,397 posts)
15. When it's dark . . .
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 05:11 PM
Feb 2014

Opponents of solar power are quick to ask: "What happens when it's dark?'

Well, when it's dark, there's no power coming from solar collectors. SO WHAT??

Here's how I answer folks who sneer and ask about the dark.

1. Natural-gas fired power plants can crank up quickly to provide power when solar collectors are not producing electricity. In fact, many utilities use natural-gas fired plants now to handle demand surges.

2. What if I gave you this deal: Divide your mortgage payment into hourly amounts and I'll pay your mortgage for every hour the sun is shining. That is, there are 720 hours in a month -- a $1,440 mortgage payment = $2.00 per hour mortgage payment. Figure an average of 12 hours per day sunlight (much more in summer, much less in winter) -- I'll end up paying half your mortgage payment annually. Would you take that deal?? OF COURSE YOU WOULD. So -- why won't you accept 12 hours a day of free electricity?

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
94. I believe that they have now found ways to store solar energy for short periods of time
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 04:13 AM
Feb 2014

so the excess energy created through the day can be used at night. One of the first places I worked here in Korea had a solar roof that created ice for the air conditioner. I have no idea how that works. I suck at science.

aggiesal

(8,914 posts)
17. They should put solar panel . . .
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 05:12 PM
Feb 2014

over public aqueducts like the one through California.
This would accomplish at least 2 things:
1) The obvious is generating electricity
2) This reduces the evaporation rate of the water.
And we need every drop of water we can get here in California.

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
37. And covering every parking lot
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:13 PM
Feb 2014

Starting with federal ones. Another use of the phone and pen, Mr. President!

Plus, people will get covered parking.

dpbrown

(6,391 posts)
18. Seems overly complicated...why use water?
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 05:14 PM
Feb 2014

Solar panels can turn solar energy into electricity without boiling water, no?

OnlinePoker

(5,719 posts)
19. Mirror cleaning
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 05:16 PM
Feb 2014

I can't see anywhere how they are going to clean the mirrors or how often. I imagine it would be on a rotational basis, but that would be such a hot, boring job.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
20. Huge thermal plant opens as solar industry grows
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 05:21 PM
Feb 2014

Originally posted here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024493290

Huge thermal plant opens as solar industry grows

<...>

The Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System, sprawling across roughly 5 square miles of federal land near the California-Nevada border, formally opens Thursday after years of regulatory and legal tangles ranging from relocating protected tortoises to assessing the impact on Mojave milkweed and other plants.

The $2.2 billion complex of three generating units, owned by NRG Energy Inc., Google Inc. and BrightSource Energy, can produce nearly 400 megawatts — enough power for 140,000 homes. It began making electricity last year.

Larger projects are on the way, but for now, Ivanpah (EYE'-ven-pah) is being described as a marker for the United States' emerging solar industry....President Barack Obama has mounted a second-term drive to combat climate change, proposing first-ever limits on carbon pollution from new and existing power plants. His plan aims to help move the U.S. from a coal-dependent past into a future fired by wind and solar power, nuclear energy and natural gas.

<...>

In 2012, the federal government established 17 "solar energy zones" in an attempt to direct development to land it has identified as having fewer wildlife and natural-resource obstacles. The zones comprise about 450 square miles in six states — California, Nevada, Arizona, Utah, Colorado and New Mexico.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/viewart/20140213/NEWS04/140213003/Huge-thermal-plant-opens-solar-industry-grows-


90 Percent Of States Added Solar Jobs In 2013, Fueled By Growth In The South

By Katie Valentine

California leads the way in solar jobs, but 18 other states more than doubled their solar jobs in 2013, according to a new map...published by the Solar Foundation as part of their National Solar Jobs Census, found that Southern states were some of the most active in creating solar jobs in 2012 — new solar jobs in North Carolina, Georgia, Texas and Louisiana accounted for nearly a quarter of the total new solar jobs added last year. In Georgia and North Carolina, solar installation jobs doubled, bringing their respective totals to 2,600 and 3,100. Both these states’ solar and renewable laws were in the news in 2013: last year in North Carolina, one lawmaker tried to repeal the state’s Renewable Energy Standard, which mandates North Carolina utilities to get 12.5 percent of their electricity from renewable sources by 2021. That attempt failed after North Carolina’s swine industry teamed up with environmentalists in support of the RES.

And last summer in Georgia, the Atlanta Tea Party teamed up with state environmental groups to call on the state’s largest utility to expand its development of solar energy. In July, the Georgia Public Service Commission voted in favor of a plan that requires Georgia Power Co. to up its solar capacity by 525 megawatts by the end of 2016.

But despite the growth in the South, the report found California to be the number one state for solar employment, supporting a total of 47,223 solar jobs— a third of the nation’s total — and adding 3,523 solar jobs since 2012. California has several policies and programs that are friendly to solar and other renewables, including Go Solar California, which has a goal of installing 3,000 megawatts of solar energy on homes and businesses by the end of 2016. Solar employers in California expect the solar job market to continue to grow in 2014, predicting 10,500 new jobs in the state this year.

Overall, the U.S. added more than 23,600 solar jobs last year, bringing the total to 142,698 solar workers, according to the Solar Foundation.

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/02/11/3279221/states-solar-jobs-2013/




TrollBuster9090

(5,954 posts)
21. I just have one question, thought. Does this generate more or less electrical power than
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 05:21 PM
Feb 2014

than if you'd just laid out an equivalent area of photovoltaic solar panels, that would cost only a fraction of the amount to install and maintain?

Does anybody know?

I've always figured that the simplest thing to do with solar energy is to just lay out a bunch of solar panels in the deserts of California, Arizona, Nevada, Texas etc., and supply enough electricity to power the entire country's grid during the day; then switch over to the dumb power grid (coal, hydro, and maybe...not so dumb...GEOTHERMAL) during the night.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
27. Concentrating solar is FAR better.
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 05:44 PM
Feb 2014

PV panels are not very efficient. Solar Thermal is the bee's knees.

There is a developing field called concentrating photovoltaics, that might offer more promise.

 

MrModerate

(9,753 posts)
75. As it turns out . . .
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 07:52 PM
Feb 2014

PV panels are inefficient, highly energy-intensive and toxic to manufacture, have a limited lifespan, require lots of maintenance and control systems in large arrays like this, and very costly.

PV makes sense in small installations (say traffic lights or all the way up to an individual home), but are not cost-effective much past that.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
23. Drove by this a few weeks ago
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 05:26 PM
Feb 2014

Really freaky looking. The towers had a sort of mist around them, probably from the heat. Was like your eyes couldnt focus on them. Was a very odd sight but very cool at the same time.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
33. Amazing what happens when corporate whores are driven into splinter party status
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 05:59 PM
Feb 2014

We still remember energy deregulation here. Who was to blame? Corporate whores in the state legislature. Today, the GOP doesn't hold enough seats in either house the state legislature to sustain a gubernatorial veto by themselves. If corporate big shots come to Sacramento looking for whore in the state legislature, they have to buy a Democrat. The Koch brothers don't come to these parts looking for some too often.

The thought for the day is that capitalism really wasn't such a bad thing back in the days when it existed, before it was replaced by corporate fascism, something that goes hand-in-hand with that dreaded institutional disease, corporate elephantiasis. Today, it easier for corporations suffering from elephantiasis to strangle upstart competition in the crib than compete with it. Without competition, corporations do nothing that justifies their existence, like innovate and keep their prices reasonable. There was a time, before corporate elephantiasis became a pandemic, that corporations would have been tripping over each other to solve environmental problems. Now, they deny there is a problem ("climate change is a hoax, so is peak oil and America only needs to tap its own energy resources to become energy independent forever&quot . This followed a period where the problem was minimized. Remember when Donald Hodel, a corporate whore who became both Secretary of Energy and Secretary of the Interior in the eighties? He said the solution to global warming was more sunscreen and hats with broader brims. Remember that matinee idol who became a corporate whore who appointed Mr. Hodel Secretary of Energy in 1982 and Secretary of the Interior in 1985. Yeah, that's right, him. The Sally Stanford of corporate whores. Remember when, while successfully running for President in 1980, he said that trees cause more pollution than automobiles?

Now the elephantiasis sufferers' favorite corporate whore is Jim Inhofe. He says "Problem? What problem? Environmental pollution is a scientific impossibility." Of course, Inhofe not only disbelieves climate science, but he doesn't believe in evolution, either. He's got a better reason not to believe in evolution than most people who don't. After two or three million years of human evolution, Inhofe is still an ape.

Another favorite corporate whore is Mitch McConnell. Like Inhofe and many other corporate whores, he can be found in the House of the Senate. Unlike Inhofe, McConnell is a firm believer in evolution. He not only believes that man evolved from a more primitive animal that also became monkeys, chimpanzees and gorillas, but he thinks we're still evolving. He says that corporations are people. Not only are corporations people, but those that suffer from corporate elephantiasis are the highest form of human being yet evolved. A real Nietzschean Übermensch. They should have rights that we mere homo sapiens don't. Like the right to rule over the rest of us and the right to collect the wages on our labor for us, because they are wiser and would know better how to use our money than we do. McConnell is consulting the scientists at a Koch funded think tank to understand how, if corporations with elephantiasis are such smart people, how they crashed the world economy in 2008.

 

El_Johns

(1,805 posts)
53. I don't get your point. This plant is owned by corporations.
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 04:39 AM
Feb 2014

"the enormous solar plant–jointly owned by NRG Energy, BrightSource Energy and Google – opened for business today."

Brightsource energy is also partially owned by Google, as well as BP Alternative Energy, Morgan Stanley, DBL Investors, Draper Fisher Jurvetson, Chevron Technology Ventures, Statoil Venture, and Black River.

It's an Israeli company & sells power to PG&E.

NRG is #751 on the Forbes Global 2000 list; i.e. the 751st biggest corporation in the world.

"NRG Energy, Inc. (NRG) is an integrated wholesale power generation and retail electricity company. NRG is a wholesale power generator engaged in the ownership and operation of power generation facilities; the trading of energy, capacity and related products, and the transacting in and trading of fuel and transportation services. NRG is a retail electricity company engaged in the supply of electricity, energy services, and cleaner energy products to retail electricity customers in deregulated markets through Reliant Energy, Green Mountain Energy, and Energy Plus. Finally, NRG is focused on the deployment and commercialization of potential disruptive technologies and smart meter technology. As of December 31, 2011, NRG's global generation portfolio included 47 fossil fuel plants, three Utility Scale Solar facilities and four wind farms, as well as Distributed Solar facilities. In December 2012, the Company and GenOn Energy, Inc .have completed their merger. "




Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
73. Your critique would make more sense if you assume that I want a Communist revolution
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 06:52 PM
Feb 2014

. . . or something similar.

However, what I object to is corporations buying politicians and setting public policy by themselves while bypassing any input by the people, who also happen to be consumers and employees.

I have no objection to private industry producing renewable energy. In fact, I welcome that. It's when the fossil fuel industries pull out their checkbooks in order to hinder the development of renewable energy and get the politicians to keep fossil fuels on artificial life support that I get upset.

Fossil fuels need to be phased out. That fossil fuels are unhealthy is good enough reason to use less, but the fact that fossil fuels are disappearing makes it critical. A few weeks ago, many DUers were taking an interest in reports that ALEC was writing model legislation to tax homeowners for putting solar panels. How does that promote energy production? It doesn't. It just makes it difficult to switch from fossil fuels to something cleaner, less dangerous to produce, and will be more abundant in the future.

 

El_Johns

(1,805 posts)
78. There was no critique. I simply didn't understand what you meant by:
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 08:31 PM
Feb 2014

"Amazing what happens when corporate whores are driven into splinter party status" etc.


Still don't, because corporations have always bought politicians and set public policy.

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
91. Oh, that's what you want to know
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 11:46 PM
Feb 2014

In the California state legislature, as a result of the 2012 elections, has hefty Democratic majorities in both houses. In the Assembly, the Democrats have 55 votes to the Republicans 25; in the Senate, the Democrats hold 28 seats, the Republicans 11 with one vacancy. As I said above &quot T)he GOP doesn't hold enough seats in either house the state legislature to sustain a gubernatorial veto by themselves," that is to say, less than a third in each house.

This does not mean that there are no corporate whores in the state legislature, or even that they are confined to the Republican delegation. Democrats have certainly been known to be corrupt. In the present regime of dark money, the people must do more to educate themselves where their representatives get their campaign donations.

With Republicans in the state legislature too weak to do what the Republicans in Washington do routinely, California has crawled out of the hole energy deregulation put it in and balanced the state budget.

The subject of this thread shows the benefits of weakening the party of choice of oil interests.

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
36. This is so cool!
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:10 PM
Feb 2014

Harnessing the energy of the sun takes us closer to the day when oil doesn't rule mideast politics.

Keefer

(713 posts)
41. From what I am hearing
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:27 PM
Feb 2014

the State of California is commissioning a two-year study:

This is from page two of the link provided:

Regulators said they anticipated that some birds would be killed once the Ivanpah plant started operating, but that they didn't expect so many to die during the plant's construction and testing. The dead birds included a peregrine falcon, a grebe, two hawks, four nighthawks and a variety of warblers and sparrows. State and federal regulators are overseeing a two-year study of the facility's effects on birds.


http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-22-billion-bird-scorching-solar-project-2014-02-12-204491731

Apparently, the temperature is reaching 1,000 degrees F. and when the birds fly close enough, they get incinerated.

G_j

(40,367 posts)
42. that's a problem
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:44 PM
Feb 2014

a concern for sure, as bird populations are already under great stress. I can't imagine how to solve it. I hope there is some way.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
68. Damn you, for bringing the downside
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 05:30 PM
Feb 2014


I won't bother pointing the real issues with industrial renewables here. The ulcer is not worth it.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
52. Cool! That said, I'd prefer more decentralized generation
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 01:48 AM
Feb 2014

But, we can't have everything.

Also cool: India is building a bigger plant right now, so maybe this will start a sun race...

kjones

(1,053 posts)
54. Just doing some jokey non-linear thinking
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 01:04 PM
Feb 2014

But isn't the sun the ultimate cancer causing energy source, the fuel behind global warming,
and the end all "not in my backyard" nuclear power plant!?!

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
58. World’s Largest Solar Thermal Plant Uses As Much Water As Two Holes On Nearby Golf Course
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 01:31 PM
Feb 2014
World’s Largest Solar Thermal Plant Uses As Much Water As Two Holes On Nearby Golf Course

By Ari Phillips

Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz marked the opening of the world’s largest solar thermal plant on Thursday in the Mojave Desert near the border of California and Nevada. The 392-MW Ivanpah project, developed by BrightSource Energy Co, started operating last month after six years of construction.

With California struggling through one of the worst droughts on record, and Ivanpah already being located in a high desert climate, water conservation has been a major focus. Solar thermal plants use solar mirrors to heat water in boilers that in turn produce steam to turn the electricity generating turbines, are more water intensive than more common solar photovoltaic panels.

“Ivanpah is utilizing dry-cooling technology that dramatically reduces water usage,” Moniz said. “In fact, this entire facility will use roughly the same amount of water as two holes at the nearby golf course.”

The electricity generated at Ivanpah will be enough to power more than 100,000 homes, and is expected to avoid more than 13.5 million tons of carbon dioxide over its 30-year lifetime, or the equivalent of taking over two million cars off the road. Last year, utility-scale solar installed a record 2.3 gigawatts.

- more -

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/02/13/3289361/worlds-largest-solar-plant/

 

Thor_MN

(11,843 posts)
61. Good god, sounds like a bunch of binary thinking conservatives in here.
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 03:30 PM
Feb 2014

Whining about minor details that are inherent in this type of power plant. Does anyone think that the people that designed these plants didn't think of these issues and a whole hell of a lot more BEFORE spending the money to build them? That the cost of cleaning mirrors wasn't factored in? That it won't generate power in the middle of the night?

Edim

(300 posts)
62. Not only in the middle od the night.
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 03:50 PM
Feb 2014

The whole night, early morning and late afternoon too. Sun needs to be relatively high and strong for this to work. This plant has no storage.

 

Thor_MN

(11,843 posts)
69. I'm sure the people that decided to spend the money to build this had no clue.
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 05:30 PM
Feb 2014

We better call them and tell the to tear it down before another dime is spent.

Who said that the plant was designed to provide power during the night when people are sleeping? People piss and moan about energy cost and then gripe when clean energy plants are built.

IT DOES NOT HAVE TO SOLVE EVERY SINGLE FUCKING PROBLEM TO BE SUCCESSFUL!!!



Edim

(300 posts)
70. I agree that it doesn't have to.
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 05:59 PM
Feb 2014

However, the question is if it can create more problems than it solves. This is still more expensive than coal and much more than gas.

 

Thor_MN

(11,843 posts)
71. If you are concerned about the costs, buy yourself a generator.
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 06:27 PM
Feb 2014

That's the only way you can have any control over how your power is generated.

How much does sunlight cost again? I keep forgetting. Have you checked gas prices lately? Would you have been able to forecast the current natural gas price last summer, much less 5 or 10 years ago?

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
77. Is there any way they can do this without using water?
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 07:56 PM
Feb 2014

Water seems to be a precious commodity these days, especially in drought-stricken areas.

XRubicon

(2,212 posts)
83. We are literally surrounded by water
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 08:49 PM
Feb 2014

So transporting oil from the middle east is reasonable to you but water from any coast is not? Have I got that right?

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
85. What?
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 09:06 PM
Feb 2014

No. I support the use of solar power.

I'm saying they shouldn't be using fresh water to power the turbines. I'm fine if they use ocean water. But I doubt that's what they're using.

XRubicon

(2,212 posts)
86. Ok sorry, I thought you were one of the luddites..
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 09:58 PM
Feb 2014

I think this is our future, if we can get past the greed.

Tikki

(14,557 posts)
84. Oh noes…Won't somebody think about the little nuke's protons and neutrons...
Fri Feb 14, 2014, 09:03 PM
Feb 2014

Last edited Fri Feb 14, 2014, 09:59 PM - Edit history (1)




Tikki

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
106. I've been following this since the project was in the planning stages.
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 10:20 PM
Feb 2014

Glad to see it's up and running.

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