Can someone prove to me that dogs are canines?

[Orrex]

What about wolves? Coyotes? Jackals?


How can all of these different animals be canines?

[JaneyVee]

1. They are divided into 2 separate groups I believe, relating to different species.

[antiquie]

2. Ah, sweet naiveté ~ nt

[undeterred]

21. Couch dogs and fence jumpers

[arely staircase]

25. I am watching my Beagle take her second of literally dozens of daily couch naps

or is asleep the dog's natural state and the brief moments in between when she spins like a dervish and achieves supersonic speed actually inverted naps?

[femmocrat]

3. Found this somewhere via Google: Sounds scientific enough to me!

Canine - any of various fissiped mammals with nonretractile claws and typically long muzzles

Canidae, family Canidae - dogs; wolves; jackals; foxes

Canis familiaris, dog, domestic dog - a member of the genus Canis (probably descended from the common wolf) that has been domesticated by man since prehistoric times; occurs in many breeds; "the dog barked all night"
wolf - any of various predatory carnivorous canine mammals of North America and Eurasia that usually hunt in packs
Canis aureus, jackal - Old World nocturnal canine mammal closely related to the dog; smaller than a wolf; sometimes hunts in a pack but usually singly or as a member of a pair
wild dog - any of various undomesticated mammals of the family Canidae that are thought to resemble domestic dogs as distinguished from jackals or wolves

[Nika]

4. Dogs are a species of canines that came about because of the wolf's relationship with mankind.

if it were not for us, dogs would not exist.

[1monster]

66. New scientific research now disputes that... Apparently, dogs did not evolve from wolves but

wolves and dogs have a common ancester...

http://www.ibtimes.com/dogs-wolves-evolved-common-ancestor-dog-domestication-more-complex-previously-thought-1543518

Dogs And Wolves Evolved From Common Ancestor, Dog Domestication ‘More Complex’ Than Previously Thought

Dogs and wolves evolved from a common ancestor between 9,000 and 34,000 years ago, a new study suggests.


A new study suggests dogs and wolves evolved from a common ancestor between 9,000 and 34,000 years ago. Wikimedia Commons
Dogs and wolves evolved from a common ancestor between 9,000 and 34,000 years ago, a new study suggests.


“This is an incredibly rich new dataset, and it has allowed us to carry out the most detailed analysis yet of the genetic history of dogs and wolves,” said Adam Siepel, associate professor of biological statistics and computational biology at Cornell and a co-author of the paper said. “There are still many open questions, but this study moves the ball forward.” (snip)

"One possibility is there may have been other wolf lineages that these dogs diverged from that then went extinct," study senior author John Novembre, an associate professor in the department of human genetics, said in a statement. "So now when you ask which wolves are dogs most closely related to, it's none of these three because these are wolves that diverged in the recent past. It's something more ancient that isn't well represented by today's wolves." (snip)

[Bonobo]

5. Dogs and wolves aren't exactly the same, are they?

You wouldn't keep a wolf as a pet, right?

I rest my case. Dogs are not canines.

[Orrex]

6. Nice post, mammal.

[femmocrat]

7. Dogs descended from wolves.

I wouldn't, but some people have. And then there are the wolf hybrids, which are wolves cross bred with dogs. Why? I have no idea, but people do this.

[hlthe2b]

26. Actually, no. They are cousins.

The contemporary gray wolf, Canis lupus , is indeed the cousin of the domestic dog. But the latter did not descend from the former. All the evidence, genetic and otherwise, points to a shared ancestor: some ancient wolflike animal , now extinct, from which they both evolved tens of thousands of years ago .

The distinction is important. In some cases it is appropriate to look at wolf behavior to understand dog behavior, and vice versa. Yet there are significant differences between the species. For instance, wolves use eye contact as a threat, whereas domestic dogs are able to make eye contact with people in a way that encourages our feeling of mutual understanding.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-dogs/2014/02/10/c53c6970-8f46-11e3-b46a-5a3d0d2130da_story.html

[Progressive dog]

33. This is from Wickipedia

article: Origin of The Domestic Dog

Some authors wrote as if domestic dogs were descended from a species of now-extinct wild dog distinct from wolves, or from jackals, but that has been disproved.

[hlthe2b]

34. That is outdated... New study (link below has not been discounted by scientific community)

No offense intended, but often best not to get your facts from Wikipedia--at least without checking other sources, as wiki does not always update as new information/studies/data discount the old.
.

http://www.livescience.com/42649-dogs-closest-wolf-ancestors-extinct.html

Here is the link to the actual study dated January 14, 2014, so hardly disproven:
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004016
Genome Sequencing Highlights the Dynamic Early History of Dogs
Published: January 16, 2014

Abstract

To identify genetic changes underlying dog domestication and reconstruct their early evolutionary history, we generated high-quality genome sequences from three gray wolves, one from each of the three putative centers of dog domestication, two basal dog lineages (Basenji and Dingo) and a golden jackal as an outgroup. Analysis of these sequences supports a demographic model in which dogs and wolves diverged through a dynamic process involving population bottlenecks in both lineages and post-divergence gene flow. In dogs, the domestication bottleneck involved at least a 16-fold reduction in population size, a much more severe bottleneck than estimated previously. A sharp bottleneck in wolves occurred soon after their divergence from dogs, implying that the pool of diversity from which dogs arose was substantially larger than represented by modern wolf populations. We narrow the plausible range for the date of initial dog domestication to an interval spanning 11–16 thousand years ago, predating the rise of agriculture. In light of this finding, we expand upon previous work regarding the increase in copy number of the amylase gene (AMY2B) in dogs, which is believed to have aided digestion of starch in agricultural refuse. We find standing variation for amylase copy number variation in wolves and little or no copy number increase in the Dingo and Husky lineages. In conjunction with the estimated timing of dog origins, these results provide additional support to archaeological finds, suggesting the earliest dogs arose alongside hunter-gathers rather than agriculturists. Regarding the geographic origin of dogs, we find that, surprisingly, none of the extant wolf lineages from putative domestication centers is more closely related to dogs, and, instead, the sampled wolves form a sister monophyletic clade. This result, in combination with dog-wolf admixture during the process of domestication, suggests that a re-evaluation of past hypotheses regarding dog origins is necessary.

[Progressive dog]

39. You are right,

I did check other sources, but only found reporting by bad science reporters. Thanks

[Shivering Jemmy]

52. Just one study

Not canon yet

[hlthe2b]

53. And by the measure those who do not understand science say evolution is mere "theory"...

Honestly, if this is your field, then you would not be quoting 17 yo studies or wikipedia and stating THAT as fact. This is a highly anticipated study that has been very well received.

Of course for those who want to quote wikipedia, I guess there is no convincing.

[femmocrat]

43. Well.... I found this!

The dog, Canis familiaris, is a direct descendent of the gray wolf, Canis lupus: In other words, dogs as we know them are domesticated wolves. Not only their behavior changed; domestic dogs are different in form from wolves, mainly smaller and with shorter muzzles and smaller teeth.

Darwin was wrong about dogs. He thought their remarkable diversity must reflect interbreeding with several types of wild dogs. But the DNA findings say differently. All modern dogs are descendants of wolves, though this domestication may have happened twice, producing groups of dogs descended from two unique common ancestors.

How and when this domestication happened has been a matter of speculation. It was thought until very recently that dogs were wild until about 12,000 years ago. But DNA analysis published in 1997 suggests a date of about 130,000 years ago for the transformation of wolves to dogs. This means that wolves began to adapt to human society long before humans settled down and began practicing agriculture.

This earlier timing casts doubt on the long-held myth that humans domesticated dogs to serve as guards or companions to assist them. Rather, say some experts, dogs may have exploited a niche they discovered in early human society and got humans to take them in out of the cold.

Source: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/01/5/l_015_02.html

There seems to be two schools of thought.

[hlthe2b]

44. That is outdated as well (1997). This is a new genetic study pub January 14, 2014 & has NOT been

discounted, discredited, nor countered. I provided a link to the actual study (and some media stories on the finding) in my posts above, which I will copy below for your convenience. The PBS blurb is old and based on the old assumptions (a 1997 study). In the scientific community, this 2014 brand spanken new study is getting lots of attention because many had predicted as much and it is well done.

http://www.livescience.com/42649-dogs-closest-wolf-ancestors-extinct.html

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1004016
Genome Sequencing Highlights the Dynamic Early History of Dogs
Published: January 16, 2014

Abstract

To identify genetic changes underlying dog domestication and reconstruct their early evolutionary history, we generated high-quality genome sequences from three gray wolves, one from each of the three putative centers of dog domestication, two basal dog lineages (Basenji and Dingo) and a golden jackal as an outgroup. Analysis of these sequences supports a demographic model in which dogs and wolves diverged through a dynamic process involving population bottlenecks in both lineages and post-divergence gene flow. In dogs, the domestication bottleneck involved at least a 16-fold reduction in population size, a much more severe bottleneck than estimated previously. A sharp bottleneck in wolves occurred soon after their divergence from dogs, implying that the pool of diversity from which dogs arose was substantially larger than represented by modern wolf populations. We narrow the plausible range for the date of initial dog domestication to an interval spanning 11–16 thousand years ago, predating the rise of agriculture. In light of this finding, we expand upon previous work regarding the increase in copy number of the amylase gene (AMY2B) in dogs, which is believed to have aided digestion of starch in agricultural refuse. We find standing variation for amylase copy number variation in wolves and little or no copy number increase in the Dingo and Husky lineages. In conjunction with the estimated timing of dog origins, these results provide additional support to archaeological finds, suggesting the earliest dogs arose alongside hunter-gathers rather than agriculturists. Regarding the geographic origin of dogs, we find that, surprisingly, none of the extant wolf lineages from putative domestication centers is more closely related to dogs, and, instead, the sampled wolves form a sister monophyletic clade. This result, in combination with dog-wolf admixture during the process of domestication, suggests that a re-evaluation of past hypotheses regarding dog origins is necessary.

[femmocrat]

46. Oh.

Thanks.

[2naSalit]

54. Thanks for posting

the link to this study. You are correct, much anticipated and far more accurate than studies conducted some time ago. I have been interested in reading it, now that you have located it, I thank you for doing that legwork!



2na

[Captain Stern]

65. But, if dogs descended from wolves, why are there still wolves? nt

[Fastcars]

15. But people do....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves_as_pets_and_working_animals

Wolves are sometimes kept as exotic pets, and in some rarer occasions, as working animals. Although closely related to dogs (which are generally thought to have split from wolves between 10,000 and 100,000 years ago), wolves do not show the same tractability as dogs in living alongside humans, and generally, much more work is required in order to obtain the same amount of reliability. Wolves also need much more space than dogs, about 10 to 15 square miles so they can exercise.[1]

[DBoon]

51. Are you really a bonobo?

Are humans and bonobos both primates?

I wouldn't let a bonobo repair my car, therefore you are not a primate

[PCIntern]

8. more to the point:

can you prove to me that Ted Cruz is a Homo sapiens?

[Demonaut]

14. he does have an opposable thumb...when it's not up his ass

[Behind the Aegis]

49. That's not is thumb, that is his head.

[H2O Man]

23. I'd expect you, of

all people, to point to his teeth.

[PCIntern]

35. Hmmm...

Question: how many rows of permanent teeth does he possess?

[H2O Man]

42. Ha!

[LittleBlue]

9. Indeed. And that thread is a shocker

Like some shit you'd see in freeperland

[Cirque du So-What]

19. I'm curious about the thread you mention

I haven't been around much lately, so I miss a lot of the sideshows.

[riderinthestorm]

36. Here you go...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024508865

[Cirque du So-What]

37. Thanks!

I now realize that my life would be an empty farce without having seen all that

[arely staircase]

29. wait. this is about sometbing else? nt

[Cirque du So-What]

31. I knew it was about something else before I clicked the link

but I am still oblivious to what the 'something else' is.

[arely staircase]

32. well I probably should have

in retrospect. Most thngs around here are.

[arely staircase]

10. a can't even prove to you that dogs exist

And I am looking at one now. Or at least I think I am or at least I am telling you that or maybe you just think I am.

[Orrex]

11. I think your dog posted that

Just like my dog ate my homework.

[chrisa]

12. ...

[url][/url]

[hunter]

13. Bush Dogs, Speothos venaticus, those are canines too?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_dog

[HereSince1628]

16. This reminds me of the old question in grad courses in systematics...do higher taxa exist?

or are they merely convenient mnemonic constructions to hold recognized types with diacritically varying ancestor-descendant lineages?

I don't mean to say that old questions means -very- old...S.J. Gould had some fascination with the concept of macroevolution of higher taxa.

[Cirque du So-What]

17. What about these guys?

They've got 'dog' right in their name, after all.

[arely staircase]

28. prairrie dogs are the Grapenuts of the animal world. nt

[NuclearDem]

18. I'm pretty sure Hitler loved canines.

Therefore, wolves are Hitler.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

22. lol

ergo.

funny.

The Wolf That Was Hitler.

[aristocles]

30. Godwin's Law Alert!

[NoGOPZone]

38. Hitler had a headquarters named Wolfsschnaze (Wolf's Lair)

It all makes sense now

[woo me with science]

20. Prove to me that these are both *dogs.*

[ChisolmTrailDem]

24. I have no idea why but that pic made me burst out laughing. It's looks like a TV

cop drama team, lol.

[Blue_In_AK]

57. Our shih tzu barks at every dog she sees on TV,

no matter what the breed, but she ignores other animals. I think it's kind of amazing that she recognizes that they're dogs even though she can't smell them or anything.

[laundry_queen]

58. Well.

Since they are so genetically similar to a wolf, they should be able to bring down some big game to feed themselves, no?

[2pooped2pop]

27. my dog says he is

and I believe him.

[pintobean]

40. They're humans, damn it.

[IDemo]

41. My boy is a canid

[okaawhatever]

47. too cute. Is he part Akita or husky? I noticed the curled tail. I have a bigger browner version of

your dog.

[IDemo]

48. The shelter had him listed as a German Shepherd/Husky

Or "shepsky", as I've heard them called.

A vet who used to work at a wolf recovery center told me last year that he thinks there is a good chance he has some wolf blood. Only a DNA test would tell, but I'm not inclined to bother. All I know for sure is he's a great dog, and he's warming my feet right now.

[JonLP24]

45. Are canines dogs?

[Dr. Strange]

50. They're not canines.

They're molars.

[Recursion]

55. Yes, see Kolor-Matznick, 2002 in Anthrozoos

Probably the best summary of the current literature on canid evolution.

Non paywalled version Here.

[A HERETIC I AM]

56. Well, one thing is for sure....

All Canines are Photoshopped.

[Orrex]

59. And they don't pose like that naturally, that's for sure

Who wants to see a dog with haunches like a ten-week old pup?

[quaker bill]

60. Russians have done so with foxes

For many generations now they have been running an experiment where they have been cross breeding the most tame foxes in captivity as well as cross breeding the most aggressive.

Over a dozen generations they have developed some very tame and some very aggressive foxes. The very aggressive foxes breed more or less to type, except that they become nasty hyper aggressive, they otherwise look and sound pretty much like the wild animals.

However the interesting bit comes from the tame x tame crosses. Not only do these foxes become more or less completely domesticated, the body shape changes, the coat coloring and patterning changes to look more like patterns commonly seen in dogs, even their vocalization changes to something more dog-like. Another dozen or so generations breeding for body type and coat pattern and they likely would have any number of different appearing models of pet foxes, just like dogs, but generally smaller.

[hobbit709]

62. I remember seeing a show on that a few years back.

Very interesting, especially on the coat and color variations.

[WinkyDink]

61. Whaaaaa?? This is a joke, right?

[Orrex]

63. Strictly speaking, no.

This thread isn't the joke.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

64. Canines eat the ice cream on your desk. They can see it with the Godlike eyes.

Dogs eat ice cream. Coyotes are on your desk and wolves have Godlike eyes. Jackals defy parameters. Ergo they are all canines eating ice cream on your desk but, you can't see them.

[JoePhilly]

67. God looked around his workshop and used some of the same parts.

God has system that works something like this ...



He just has lots and lots more jars.