All temporary taxcuts should be allowed to expire.

[kentuck]

If we are in the worst economy since the Great Depression, it is about time for everyone to tighten their belts. It is cowardice to say that no one making less than $250K a year should not have to pay more in taxes. It is political bullshit.

Businesses are sitting on over $2 trillion dollars in assets and the only way their workers can get an extra dollar in their paychecks is to cut their Social Security contributions. Give me a fucking break!

How about a little backbone? How about a little courage?

The payroll taxcuts should be allowed to expire immediately. They should never have taken place in the first place. It was a sorrowful display in lack of judgement.

The Democratic Party, which has fought for programs to help the people of this country with their blood and tears, are now ready to give up all these gains for a measly ass tax cut because the people need it in these hard times.

For goodness sakes people, open your eyes! Stand up and fight. If we followed the advice of the present leaders of this Party, there would never have been a strike against unfair labor practices. There would never have been a union. These folks walked the picket lines not knowing where their next meal was going to come from. Now, we act like we cannot live if we don't get that 2-3% FICA tax cut in our paycheck.

And when we sacrifice that, we make damn sure that the Bush taxcuts expire and that the capital gains taxes go back up and that the estate taxes not be passed on to the weak, whiny offspring of dying billionaires.

Grow a pair!

[lonestarnot]

1. I'd gladly pay a grand and give up lunch for a fucking year to watch Richie Rich have to pay his

fair share.

[TheWraith]

16. That's great, if you don't need that grand to feed your kids.

A great many people do.

Funny how people here on one hand rail against deficit reduction measures in this economy, insisting that deficits don't matter, then when it comes to tax cuts that affect primarily poor and middle class people--primarily the payroll tax--they become deficit hawks? Leave that money with the people who will plow it back into the economy.

[kentuck]

19. Would you take food stamps if your children were hungry?

Or would you prefer your FICA taxcut? Food stamps would do more to stimulate our economy.

[BOHICA12]

27. Not just a Grand ...

the temporary tax cuts cover all income tax payers - (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/CutYourTaxes/what-if-the-bush-tax-cuts-expired.aspx)

For a typical single filer with adjusted gross income of around $40,000, it might be about $400 a year. At $80,000, that rises to about $1,600.

How about married couples filing jointly? They'd get hit with both higher tax rates and a lower standard deduction. (It was raised in 2001.) A couple earning $80,000 a year in adjusted gross income might pay about $2,200 extra. A married couple on $160,000 a year? Maybe $5,500 extra.

If they have children, it would be more, as the per-child tax credit would revert from $1,000 to $500. Ouch.

If we want to eat our peas - this is the way to go - but those peas don't look so good.

[SheilaT]

78. I make so little money

that I could not notice any difference in my take-home pay when the tax cut was put into effect.

And I agree. All the temporary tax cuts should be allowed to expire. The huge danger with this payroll tax cut is that it's going to be used as an excuse to cut Social Security very soon down the road.

[russspeakeasy]

2. "backbone? courage" ? what are these strange things you speak of ?

and sorry to dissapoint, ...no pair will be grown.

We will be bipartisan until there is nobody left.

[bhikkhu]

3. The problem comes when less income=less spending=recession, layoffs, and so on

That really only applies to the spending of the 90% or so of us who's spending is limited by the limits of our income, but nevertheless that is the reason for most of the tax cuts. As long as we are in a "weak recovery", reducing monthly incomes is likely to result in a return to recession...the repugs know this, of course, and naturally use it to their advantage.

...or so goes the reasoning I have heard.

[kentuck]

4. More money coming into the Treasury means more government spending...

and less cutting of critical programs that people truly need, moreso than a measly taxcut.

[Yo_Mama]

46. It doesn't, though

It just reduces the deficit, i.e. we borrow less.

Directly raising taxes will not produce more spending. The last two fiscal years we ran deficits each year of almost 1.3 trillion, or about 2.9 trillion total.

Unfortunately, we are going to hit the wall on this tactic in just a couple of years.

One way to look at raising taxes is that since it raises more revenue, it will prevent larger spending cuts in the future. That's legitimate - public policy should be the policy that will work best over the long term.

But inflation, a bad employment situation etc have already been cutting per capita income this year, and if we raise taxes too much next year on most people we will most assuredly tip the country into another recession. It may go into recession even if we don't.

[eridani]

9. However, it is utterly idiotic to suggest that tax cuts have any significant effect on--

--aggregate demand. 48% of our population is low income or outright poor. Their stupid fucking "middle class tax cut" amounts to a couple of hundred dollars. Multiply by the number of people involved, and you increase aggregate demand just like you increase ocean temperature by spitting in it.

To increase the incomes of people in this group, you need to reinstate Make Work Pay, or substantially raise EITC benefits, and pay for it by taxing the rich more.

When the 1% is hoarding all the assets and not investing (because they don't have more prospective customers, having finally succeeded in decimating the discretionary income of everyone else), you have to tax it away from them and use it to hire people to provide public goods. $200 is a useless piddlyass amount of money that makes no difference to someone's life--going from unemployed to employed makes a huge difference. Going from a poorly paid job to a well paid one makes a huge difference.

[rsmith6621]

5. Hey kentuck

Give your address and I will send you my bills and you can pay them cause if this doesn't get extended mu unemployment runs out in March. Right now I could care less about oil spills in the Kansas.

[lonestarnot]

6. March? This is going to go on until November. Hang onto your shorts!

[kentuck]

7. Maybe you should tell your Congressman to fight for unemployment benefits...

...like every other Democrat has done up to this time. And let the Republican know that he will not get your vote or your family's vote. You are not the only person that has ever been unemployed. And you would not be the only person unemployed without benefits. I know that sounds crude and cruel but we have to fight for the benefits rather than surrender everything to the Republicans so they will "give" them to us. That's what elections are about.

[bigtree]

8. speak for your own income

Don't represent giving up money folks need as some act of courage. Have more compassion than to bait folks who need the money.

[kentuck]

10. Better than asking people to surrender what they have paid for all their lives?

So you can get a few extra dollars in your pocket, as if you could not live without it. Most folks don't even know they got it, in the first place. Sometimes you have to fight for it. You can't expect it to be given to you by the Republicans and you can't expect others to sacrifice so nobody has to suffer any hardship at all. We must all maintain a certain level of comfort which we have become accustomed to. Are we in the worst economy since the Great Depression or what??

[bigtree]

13. nothing of the sort is occurring. You're just using fear to make your point

Nothing is happening to the Social Security trust fund. The money is replaced from general revenue; thus, the tax cut is paid out of general revenue. The unemployment benefits are actually well-known as an effective stimulus, actually adding to the economic growth we need. Stop being an actuary and start thinking about what folks need right now.

[kentuck]

17. There is nothing in the general fund.

It is running a deficit, I'm sure you know? The SS fund is not.

I would agree that unemployment benefits are an effective stimulus but we should not be bribed to sacrifice other programs or to cut other benefits to provide for unemployment. We should fight the Republicans in the streets for unemployment benefits for the folks that need it. We shouldn't surrender as we have been doing, as we did with the extension of the Bush taxcuts, as with the debt ceiling, etc...

[bigtree]

21. that should apply to everything else then, not just when the middle class gets a break

you want to make an argument about priorities in the general budget? It's ridiculous to focus on this one benefit the middle class is going to take advantage of and just let the rest go. So you'd begin your fight against the deficit by denying this cut? Inspiring. It's always the middle class that takes the first and largest hit in the budget. Nice to know you feel that's an acceptable order.

[kentuck]

22. Just what is politically possible at the moment.

Once you show enough courage to fight the Republicans and win a majority, then we can do more. We are talking about what is politically feasible at this time.

[bigtree]

43. denying the middle class a tax break before changing the other priorities isn't 'courage'

It's what republicans have wanted all along. Surrender the little bit that goes to folks who need the money and not replacing it with anything. Just this notion that it's somehow contributing to good government. What a crock.

[kentuck]

49. Could you please get off this this tax cut bull ?

It makes you sound like a flaming right winger...

[bigtree]

52. yeah, that's right, we're not just regular folks out here, working our asses off

trying to make a living; trying to make the little we have stretch for ourselves and the ones around us.

No, to you, we're just some pawns in your little political playgame. No way can we think independently of the little political boxes of your own indifferent bias you try and shove us in.

Your talk of 'courage' in this thread is disgusting. Talk about republican! You couldn't be anymore full of shit.

[bigtree]

57. That's about as direct a personal assault as you can make Kentuck

. . . from your anonymous perch who the fuck knows where.

You're acting like a heartless pig, trying to shame poor folks into surrendering the little they have for the sake of some fictional deficit reduction that you dreamed up.
It would be one thing if ending the tax break was attached to something even remotely related to deficit reduction, but that is a process of reducing SPENDING, not taxing the hell out of everyone just to fund the government's politically-driven wars abroad.

Where's your backbone? Picking on poor people and trying to punk them into rejecting the few extra dollars they have to spend to satisfy your political playgame is sickening. The fact that you accuse ME of republicanism shows just how dense you really are, you miserable wretch.

[kentuck]

58. "you miserable wretch"??

I'm sorry you feel that way. Keep your FICA taxcut. Go buy yourself a Big Mac and some fries and get off the computer for a while. You have been preaching for these taxcuts and Republican policies for quite some time and most people that post here know where you are coming from.

Have a good day.

[bigtree]

59. You can't keep from taunting people, can you?

You have to be a special kind of cold to be so callous about the income needs of people out here as you have with this issue. You need more than a break, you need an epiphany.

Interesting how defending a Democratic tax break from a Democratic President is considered 'republican' to you. You're so screwed up with animosity toward the Democratic party that you can't even defend our constituency against republican assault on their interests. You're content instead with playing your imaginary political game here on this board pretending like surrendering this Democratic-initiated tax cut for the middle class is going to bring about recovery; all the while there is absolutely NO effort going on that remotely resembles this deficit reduction that you've conjured for your little political play. All you want is for struggling wage earners to sacrifice their tax break to serve your imaginary little internet game.

Do you feel like a big man telling me 'most people that post here know where you are coming from.' Does it make you swell up with pride? Are you getting PM hurrahs? I hope so, because it will be a virtual bloodbath if anyone dares echo your slanderous nonsense where everyone can see the baiting and the bullying for what it is. You can't make a cogent point so you decided to try and set me up in front of whatever audience there is on this wretched thread as a republican. You are a complete fool for going there. You are an even greater one if you actually believe it. You deserve the best of whatever you aspire to. I wish it for you.

[kentuck]

60. You deserve everything you get.

Thanks for your kind remarks.

[eridani]

11. They need more money than some pissy tax cut is going to give them.

Taxes have shrunk mightily since 2000, without doing the economy a damned bit of good.

[kentuck]

12. They hooked people on the Bush taxcuts rather than pay raises from their employers...

and now they want to hook them on the small FICA tax cuts, also. We may as well surrender everything to the Republican Party because we have all become Republicans if this is the case.

[bigtree]

15. The payroll tax cut extension is Obama policy

Why don't you believe middle class Americans deserve to pay less taxes?

[eridani]

18. Jeebus. Because taxes pay for necessary public goods, ferchrissakes!

When middle class Americans paid a fuck of a lot more, not to mention rich people, the country was far more prosperous because those public goods boosted the economy. If paying less taxes is so helpful, why has average income dropped so much since 2000, even as taxes went to the lowest levels since before the New Deal?

[bigtree]

42. so that burden should be all on the middle class?

The priorities of our government are not dependent on Americans paying more taxes. Those priorities should be shifted and changed, rather than just raising our taxes just to make government run more efficiently.

Maybe you believe the priorities of our government are just fine. This payroll tax cut is but a fraction of what we spend; much of it on things we never benefit from.

[eridani]

65. It should be mainly on the rich

Cuts should come from rolling back the American empire.

[bigtree]

14. right, where's the replacement? Where's the alternative?

You offer zero.

[kentuck]

20. Just surrender...

You don't have far to go.

[airplaneman]

23. Here is my take

Social security is not in big trouble but it will be if we go from 1/6 cutback in funding to 1/2 cutback in funding. Obama's make work pay credit was a good idea that gave 10K a year and 100K a year couples $800 bucks each with no threat to social security. The 2 % give the 10K couple $200.00 and the 100K couple $2000.00 and it threatens the sovency of social security. I am so tired of the bigger income person always getting the better break. The Bush tax cut was a massive dumping of the treasury leaving no money for anything. I too want it to expire and I dont care if it is for everybody. This making a buch of exceptions is never helping anybody but the rich. I want taxes fair and broadbased with people in poverty paying 0 and people at 2x poverty paying only a little, the middle class pays a modest amount and the rich paying the most. All the republicans want wages taxed but not dividens, not interest, not royalties, not capital gains, no death tax, and protection of all the means of wealth creation for the rich. All forms of wealth creation should be taxed. I also think a tax on stock trades and derivative trades at about 0.5% would be a great idea as Europe is considering.
-Airplane

[kentuck]

24. Well said, airplaneman.

You are right about the SS tax cut also.

[eridani]

31. +10000!! n/t

[FogerRox]

75. The FICA tax cut is paid for, the SS trustees have received funds each month

We need to spend 8-10% of GDP on Job stimulus, this will create 17-20 million jobs.

[BzaDem]

25. The social security trust fund is not being reduced by one penny. The tax cut should be extended,

not ended. And we are fortunate that our party is listening to reason on this issue.

[eridani]

28. No--the firewall separating Social Security from general revenue for 75 years--

--has just been blown all to hell.

Tax cutting of all sorts is exactly the useless bullshit policy that got us into our current economic mess. If they are so great, why has the first decade of the millenium been such an utter disaster?

[airplaneman]

30. Some bullets on this

- The first year came out of the general fund and by default became part of the yearly budget but expenses already outstrips income so it was just outstripped a little more.
- The republicans want the tax cut and all the problems it creates but they do not want to pay for it with any tax just postpone govenment workers cola or cut somewhere else in the safety net for the average person.
- Obama is now considering compromising with the republicans to give them a little more of what they want for this tax break to continue or be enlarged.
- We were promised just one year for this and once a tax break it can be very difficult to undo.
- You do not protect social security by cutting its funding and hope you will come up with the money somewhere else. Why not just give everyone the same tax break without cutting from social security income.
- It may sound OK and it may work out but the wheels are in motion for the potential of gutting social security itself.
I for one think this is a very dangerous game. I hope that I am wrong.
-Airplane

[BzaDem]

40. "You do not protect social security by cutting its funding and hope you will come up with the money"

There is no hope involved. The law mandates that the trust fund be reimbursed from the general fund at the same time the FICA income to the general fund gets reduced, and for the same amount.

Whether or not Social Security gets gutted has nothing to do with the tax cut. If someone wants to gut Social Security, they are going to want to gut it regardless of its funding source.

[kentuck]

50. I wish someone would answer this "point"...

- You do not protect social security by cutting its funding and hope you will come up with the money somewhere else. Why not just give everyone the same tax break without cutting from social security income.
=========

If it comes out of the general fund anyway, why cut it from FICA taxes ????????????????????????????

[ProSense]

26. This

"Businesses are sitting on over $2 trillion dollars in assets and the only way their workers can get an extra dollar in their paychecks is to cut their Social Security contributions. Give me a fucking break! "

...argument makes no sense. The government does not control the $2 trillion businesses are sitting on. The payroll tax cut is government stimulus. By the OP logic, the government doesn't need to pass stimulus, just force businesses to get up off the $2 trillion.

[eridani]

29. The government fucking well does control tax policy

Tax the fuckers and spend it on public goods. Why is that so hard to understand?

[RB TexLa]

32. Tax their cash assets? Do you want my savings in the bank taxed as well?

What rate should have have to pay on money I don't spend? If I don't spend it, the government should take it from me?

[eridani]

37. Your bank savings is already doubly taxed

Unlike their capital gains. Yes. Tax their cash assets. Taking money away from rich people is the only way to get the economy going, just like taking the Monopoly winner's money away and redistributing it to the other players is the only way to keep the Monopoly game going.

[BzaDem]

41. Er, no. You may be talking about interest on savings. But you do not pay a tax on the principal.

Your bank savings do not diminish by a given percent every year.

[ArcticFox]

48. Cash assets they likely are not

They are doubtless making capital gains. Raise the rate of taxing these gains. End the favorable tax treatment of government bonds. There are these and other ways to loosen their grips on their savings.

[ProSense]

35. And

"The government fucking well does control tax policy

Tax the fuckers and spend it on public goods. Why is that so hard to understand?"

...a bullshit non sequitur. Until the $2 trillion is collected as taxes, the government has no control over it. In fact, even if the government raises taxes on business, it will likely be paid from current income, not the funds stashed away.

I'm sure Boehner and the Republicans are thinking about ways to work with Obama to overhaul the tax code.

The stimulus can wait.

[JCMach1]

33. Unfortunately, the President already crossed the Rubicon of allowing the cutting payroll taxes

Now, it's being talked about as if it were any other tax... which it isn't.

i.e. it plays right into the argument that Social Security as an entitlement and therefore infinitely cuttable...

In short, I agree with you kentuck

[FarLeftFist]

34. F--k That! If you make over $250/K a year you didn't just live through a recession.

The ONLY ones that sacrifice are the middle class.

[eridani]

38. And also the 48% of the population that is low income or outright poor

They sacrifice far more than the middle class.

[MjolnirTime]

36. spoken like someone with money to spare!

[eridani]

39. Spoken by someone who knows that tax cutting since 2000 has destroyed our economy

If tax cuts are so great, why has household income been dropping steadily since 2000?

If you want the people who need it to have more money, support reinstating Making Work Pay and increasing EITC.

[dawg]

45. Making Work Pay *is* a tax cut.

Arguably, increasing the EITC could be considered a tax cut as well.

Both would be tremedously stimulative and helpful to the economy right now.

[eridani]

62. It is a tax credit, and should be referred to as such

Cutting taxes = government should not be funded = a REPUKE meme, so cut it out.

[dawg]

67. When you increase a tax credit, you cut taxes.

I'll play word games if I'm working on a campaign. When I'm discussing things with fellow Democrats I'm just going to call something by it's name.

[eridani]

69. These "word games" are otherwise known as FRAMING, which the Repukes have--

--been using successfully against us for 30 years. Please take note. It makes a difference if you start calling the estate tax a "death tax." We ought to be calling it an anti-parasite tax.

[dawg]

72. I understand all about framing, Lakoff and such, but ...

I think it's fine to call it a tax cut when we're doing it. People like tax cuts. They like them better than credits. They view credits as "unearned" transfers.

[eridani]

74. Only because the Repukes have been pushing the evil government, taxes bad

--meme for 30 years. Why aren't we calling taxes "buying public goods," and defending public goods as, well GOOD?

[MjolnirTime]

55. Too purist for me. You ignore all those you would hurt to achieve perfection.

[kentuck]

56. It wasn't passed to relieve the pain...

It was passed to try and stimulate the economy. They were not that concerned about how you were hurting and I doubt it has relieved the pain that much? I understand that $10 or $12 a week can be a lot of money for some folks. I would guess that these will be the same folks that will need their SS to survive on when they get older.

[MjolnirTime]

80. So you think it's time to stop stimulating the Economy? wrong!

[eridani]

63. Since when is common sense way out of line and an impossible goal?

Why not stop spitting out Repuke memes at every opportunity?

[FogerRox]

76. Actually wages have not kept up with inflation for over 35 years.

Per the 2010 census report.

We need 20 million jobs. This would increase FICA payments to SS. Some wage growth would also increases FICA payments. Making SS good thru 2055, not 2036.

[LanternWaste]

61. I imagine to a subsistence farmer in Rwanda...

I imagine to a subsistence farmer in Rwanda, we all of us in the west have money to spare. I guess it's mostly a relative things and eventually comes down to our personal definition of needs v wants.

[dawg]

44. That would be counter-productive.

Although it is somewhat counter-intuitive, now is the time government should be going deeper into debt.

Tax-hikes and spending cuts during a recession only deepen the recession. Better for the government to run large deficits than to cause families to have to cut-back even more severely than they already must.

Of course, some tax cuts are better than others. Tax cuts on the rich don't help much, because the rich just save them. Tax cuts for ordinary folks get spent, which generates income for businesses, which creates new jobs.

[Sherman A1]

47. Works for me.

[kentuck]

51. As Loretta Lynn said...

"Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die..."

[sad sally]

64. No truer words ever spoken.

[cthulu2016]

66. Depression plus belt-tightening equals more depression

It is not useful for anyone, including the rich or the government, to tighten their belt during an economic demand/employment crisis.

[Fool Count]

68. In fact, the best way to put more money into people's pockets and to improve the economy

is to raise corporate profit taxes immediately. Maybe then they will shift some of the money from profits to
workers' salaries - just to not have to pay more taxes on it.

[bonzotex]

70. agreed, let them all expire...

I wish more Democrats had the guts to talk about it. We can argue how to spend and cut all day, but we can't keep "starving the beast". That is just playing the repukes game for them.

We'll never get the tax increases needed from the rich and corporate without just letting the Bush cuts die across the board.

[taught_me_patience]

71. There are a lot of people here on DU that want taxes raised on the other guy

forgetting that the Bush tax cuts, cut taxes for everybody. Cut taxes for everybody and raise them for everybody seems fair to me.

[WillyT]

73. K & R !!! - Agreed !!!

[WheelWalker]

77. You're preaching to the choir on this, my friend...

Become more financially secure and gain our independence from the leverage of the incomprehensible Right.

Blessings.

On Edit: needed an uppercase 'r' for clarity

[badtoworse]

79. I agree - nt