Where are all these Travis Bickle, um, I mean Zimmerman supporters coming from?

[Taverner]

I've noticed quite a few trolls (and yes, you are trolls - murder is not a Democratic or Progressive value) who are supporting Zimmerman, the racist violence-obsessed stalker and killer of an innocent kid.

If you like vigilantes so much, just go watch Death Wish.

[msanthrope]

1. Are you talking to me? (Yeah..the support for this guy is pretty pathetic.) nt

[MrScorpio]

2. The defenders against the existential threat of young black males...

Are here to educate us poor, hapless liberals against pining for our own self destruction.

They're only looking out for good, law abiding folk.

[freshwest]

13. They can eff off. I know quite well how to live with others.

[FarPoint]

3. I have yet to see them...

I believe your right...they must be trolls. Anyone who would support Zimmerman ...well they must be trolls.I'll keep my eyes wide open.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

27. There's more than one.

[FarPoint]

43. I see the critters now..

I think we need an exterminator.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

47. Yes we do.

Try this in the meantime.

[hifiguy]

51. This needs to be, err, liberally applied

around here.

[Mojorabbit]

40. You can count me as another

I live near Sanford. I am 99 percent sure Zimmerman is guilty but I live in a country that is supposed to have due process and where one is innocent till proven guilty. With all the publicity this case has engendered and even the feds getting involved I am sure every angle will be explored to get this to trial. I don't find it an admirable quality in a person or board to have a vigilante or lynch mob mentality. The ptb have been pressured. The sherriff has had a vote of no confidence. The wheels are turning and I am hoping justice will be served in the end. If that makes me a troll then so be it.

[FarPoint]

44. The National Guard need to take possession of the police department.

It is a miserable failure....they don't even know the meaning of " protect and serve". I sense riots will be next unless the shooter comes out of his secret location.

[Mojorabbit]

50. I hope not. I don't want anyone else to be harmed. nt

[OPOS]

59. By far the worst idea yet

The National Guard is not a Police force, is not trained or equipped for police duties. Most units have a 2 day drill to learn about riot control. riot control is very different than day to day policing.

[MH1]

57. Did I miss the news that Zimmerman was arrested?

Until he's arrested, how can there be any thought of a trial?

If there's anyone on this planet who actually, really, in their hearts believes that if their skin colors were reversed, the black man wouldn't have been arrested - please, I want to know who you are and on what evidence you base that. Because there is NO DOUBT that if a black guy had shot a white kid, the black guy would have been arrested. It sounds like you're saying that would be wrong, too? I would disagree, but in any case, that's how it is, and the inconsistency reeks.

[CTyankee]

60. straw man argument. no one here is advocating vigilantism.

If you wish to give specific examples of "lynch mob mentality" then do so. But don't make an accusation that you can't back up...

[Mojorabbit]

63. I just read a post saying he should fry.

I think he needs to be brought to trial. I am not going to proclaim him guilty and pronounce sentence before that happens. I read two days ago there was to be a grand jury convened by the Seminole County State Attorney.

[CTyankee]

64. I didn't see that one. What I have read has been outrage that the guy got preferential

treatment from the police and it was travesty of justice. It is good that the grand jury is being convened. But would it have happened if there hadn't been so many voices raised on behalf of justice for that kid? Is asking for justice, per se, now to be equated with vigilantism?

[Mojorabbit]

65. No, that is the point I am making!

Asking for justice+good
Applying Pressure and Working to obtain that justice +good
Calling for him to Fry and accusing people
that want to get the system to work as defending Zimmerman is over the top and I have seen a lot of this.
It kind of is freaking me out to see this on the board. I understand the emotions and I feel them too but
I want the law to step in and let the courts do their work.

[CTyankee]

66. I don't see that we are that far apart on this. But you have to understand that lots of

people feel that Zimmerman has his "rights" defended to the max while Trayvon's killing was ignored by the police. That certainly seems the case here.

The fact is that the law didn't step in, as you said it should, and people are reacting to the injustice. Surely, you can see this!

[Mojorabbit]

72. Yes, of course I see that

If you re read my last post. I have said I understand the emotions. I live near Sanford. I am heartbroken for the parents of that child. I have no sympathy towards the shooter. That being said, a Grand Jury has been set up, Rev Al is here as I post giving a barn burner of a speech, Martin Luther King III, is here as is Gov Patterson. Pressure is being applied. I would bet a huge sum that something will be done. Even Rev Al just said(paraphrasing), "we just want an arrest and a trial" which is exactly what I am saying.

[CTyankee]

79. Yep. Rev. Al sums it up right, as usual...

[csziggy]

61. The biggest issue I have is that there was absolutely no investigation

Once Zimmerman invoked the "stand your ground" defense. I don't object to people being able to defend themselves, but when there is a death or serious injury, there should be a full and proper investigation into the circumstances. Without immediately examining what happened, there will always be questions about whether the violence was necessary.

I do have to say that in looking at the currently available information, Zimmerman's story does not seem to hold together, in my opinion. But what I ask, as the Martin family is asking, is that there be an investigation into what actually happened.

[Mojorabbit]

74. I totally agree.

I also think something stinks. It is a very small town. I am really wondering if he was an informant. I hope he is indicted. I hope he goes to trial. I hope the Police Chief loses his job because of the dismal performance of the investigation or rather lack of in this case. I hope no one else gets hurt if tempers get too heated.

[csziggy]

76. The informant idea was floated on one of the shows yesterday

In conjunction with the charges being dropped for assaulting an officer. The law enforcement expert on the TV show said that cops almost never drop those charges and usually if they are dropped, it's when they want to use the defendant as an informant.

I wonder what Zimmerman could know that the cops could use? Drug dealers? Maybe he knew a fence?

He seemed to have been out 'patrolling the neighborhood' pretty constantly, but according to Taaffe, the guy whose been on HLN defending Zimmerman, there has been a rash of burglaries recently. If Zimmerman were such a great neighborhood watch captain, how could there be that many unsolved crimes?

[Mojorabbit]

77. Sanford has a very high crime rate in general

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/fl/sanford/crime/
It may be that the police dept has a lot of people informing. It would not surprise me.
I attend events there ever so often but never alone at night.
Per the link... with 100 being safest, Sanford scores a whopping 3 on the scale.

[bluestate10]

70. Zimmerman has been given every benefit of doubt so far by the people that count.

As more come out, it is becoming obvious to anyone with a brain that Sanford police not investigating Trayvon Martin's shooting more vigorously and taking all possible care to preserve the shooting scene was a gross miscarriage of justice. Post filing changes of police reports raise more questions about what happened to Trayvon Martin. No one is attempting to lynch Zimmerman. A thorough investigation of the shooting is needed, the investigation was needed 30 days ago. A fair investigation may clear Zimmerman, although I am doubtful that will happen once all facts are fairly considered with noting being hidden.

[Mojorabbit]

73. This is what I am saying

Pressure is being applied. But people saying he needs to go to trial are being accused of being trolls and look at a couple of posts in this thread about finding where he is at, etc. It just freaks me out seeing those kinds of posts here when I think we should be putting pressure for this child to have justice done via the courts, not finding out where he lives. I don't think I must be making myself clear. I am on day three of a migraine so I may not be wording what I mean precisely.

[CTyankee]

58. Yes, I do believe it is a defensive position.

The gun ideology seems to be so deeply personalized in these folks. I'm not a psychologist, so I can only speculate, but my sense is that they are like all "true believers," desperate not to lose their rationale for their position on gun ownership in our society.

Useless to argue with them, really...but don't let them get away with false assertions...

[Whisp]

5. I'm just catching up on this story - Al Sharpton's show on MSNBC

what the FUCK!!
The sheriff is making excuses for Zimmerman?

Zimmerman the fucking MURDERER is not only still free and out there, but he still has his GUN! And for those trolls defending him, FUCK YOU!! A neighbour heard the incident. The kid was crying - shot/s rang out and the crying stopped. It wasn't fucking poor threatened Zimmerman that was crying then, hey?

This is beyond madness. That sheriff should not only be fired but charges should be laid against him for obstructing the law.

FUCK!!
this is so enraging I was to PUKE!

[left on green only]

23. The only consulation I can imagine

is that I believe that there are people among us at this very minute who are working to discover Zimmerman's current location. Did I say that? Slap my face.

[csziggy]

62. The Mother Jones article is a good place to get the facts and background

The Trayvon Martin Killing, Explained
How did a kid armed with Skittles and iced tea get gunned down by an overeager neighborhood watch captain? UPDATED with response from Sanford, Fla., police department

—By Adam Weinstein
| Sun Mar. 18, 2012 10:42 AM PDT

On the evening of February 26, Trayvon Martin—an unarmed 17-year-old African American student—was confronted, shot, and killed near his home by George Zimmerman, a Latino neighborhood watch captain in the Orlando, Florida, suburb of Sanford. Zimmerman has not been charged with a crime. Since Martin's death and the release of more details, the case has garnered national media attention and sparked a host of public debates over racial tensions, vigilantism, police practices, and gun laws.

Read on for our primer, or jump to these latest updates:

Florida's controversial self-defense laws
Is a Koch brothers lobby group behind the "stand your ground" laws?
Glenn Beck website calls Trayvon Martin "aggressor", implies he's a criminal
NRA pushes "stand your ground" in all 50 states
Sanford documents released: Zimmerman claims he was attacked
Trayvon's parents speak to "Million Hoodie March" in New York City

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained

It has very good details and lots of links to original sources for the information.

[kestrel91316]

6. I've seen at least 3 apologists

[freshwest]

11. Yes, and I don't get it.

[kestrel91316]

41. I do. They are RW trolls who post on DU to stir up s--t.

Sometimes they lay low for quite a while, but eventually they are compelled to out themselves through bad behavior.

[Dragonfli]

29. 3 prolific ones 4 with only a couple timid posts in Zim's defense and one horrid ugly troll eating

pizza for a couple days now. I hope it likes the taste of granite.

2 of the apologists usually support right of center and are proud of it, but after years their pizza has failed to be delivered. Mostly because they are blue-dogs and they are Teflon here.

[Jazzgirl]

7. Oh I saw a thread posted by one long timer today.

It made me sick reading them saying "there's more to it. He was being threatened". B S! I was surprised to see that crap.

[socialist_n_TN]

35. Threatened with what? Skittles?..........

Or maybe it was that can of iced tea. Point out that thread please. I'd like to hear the justification for killing some kid half your age and half your weight. WITH A GUN NO LESS.

30 years of martial arts training and I can kill somebody with a ballpoint pen, but I've also been trained NOT to kill somebody with a ballpoint pen. Or anything else unless I have absolutely NO OTHER CHOICE to save a life, my own or others.

There was NO excuse for this and I'd like to talk to somebody who thinks there was.

[unionworks]

36. Tennessee?

Hmmmm..... Shaolin-Do?

[socialist_n_TN]

54. Yep. Ng San Lung Fa..........

Shaolin. Specializing in Wing Chun.

[unionworks]

55. that is specialized

And Wing Chun is rather rare in the U.S. if I am correct. Bruce Lee started in Wing Chun and then refined it to his own style, Jeet Kun Do? I earned my second brown in my late 40's, that's as far as I got.

[socialist_n_TN]

67. Correctomundo!..........

Bruce Lee did indeed start in the Hong Kong version of Wing Chun. Our system is something of a hybrid of Hong Kong and the mainland Pan Nam system. It's a good exercise program. Among other benefits.

[unionworks]

71. had my share

Of iron bone contact drills in the Hun Gar section of practice. Probably something like Wing Chun wooden man training, but with a live partner. Savor the pain....

Always fun to watch a newbie go shin to shin trying to sweep Sensei and drop to the floor screaming....

[kestrel91316]

42. Some trolls go undercover for quite a while before becoming obvious.

[hifiguy]

52. They certainly do, but it is in their nature to be trolls

and they always wind up outing themselves.

[fascisthunter]

8. I think it's more of a defense of the law that set this murder in motion

the victim and his murderer are just a part of it all. It's about the right to carry and shoot if one feels threatened. SOme don't want that taken away, regardless of the lives it costs.

[arthritisR_US]

9. I have noticed a few and I cannot agree

with them on any level. That poor lad was stalked and murdered, in my feeble opinion.

[freshwest]

12. Yes, he was. An arrest would be the least that could be done. But he's loose, armed and dangerous

It makes no sense at all.

[arthritisR_US]

20. None at all, in a just world, which leads

me to question the one we are in.

[freshwest]

22. I've heard it called 'Earth School.' If you fail to learn, you have to repeat it.

[arthritisR_US]

24. Oh dear, too many F's. This may be a long

slog

[freshwest]

25. 'To infinity and beyond.' Wonder what that saying really meant. 'I'll be back.' Oh, no...

[arthritisR_US]

34. Lol... I so admire a clever mind. Thanks :) n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

16. There is no way a logical person could look at it any other way.

Especially after listening to Zimmerman's 911 call.

[arthritisR_US]

19. What I heard was vile. This entire tragedy

has sickened me to my core and when I hear/read apologists who "just want to see the other side" I have a very violent and visceral reaction to such. I know that doesn't say much for my person but that is how it has hit me.

[siligut]

10. Sometimes when people try to be too open minded, they end up looking stupid

They don't want to rush to judgement just in case there is a chance that all of the evidence to the contrary is inaccurate.

[Taverner]

31. Good case of "if you keep your mind too opened up, your brains fall out"

I used to think that statement was BS - but now I have seen the light

[retread]

48. Funny how those "open minds" are only "open" in select instances!

[Iggo]

14. Hear, hear.

[The Magistrate]

15. Just The Usual 'Gungeon' Stalwarts Rising To Clearer Water, Sir

[fascisthunter]

17. exactly

and very disturbing

[liberalhistorian]

18. Anything to protect their "murder with impunity"

laws. What I just don't understand is how they cannot and will not grasp that Zimmerman had no right to get out of his car and confront the kid, and that Martin must have felt terribly threatened, being alone, at night, with someone strange stalking and following him. Why are HIS feelings of fear and threat and danger not considered important? And what's truly sickening is their attempt to claim that the unarmed can be far more of a threat than someone who actually has a gun, and their insistence on it. Sickening.

[morningfog]

46. It is so strange. I understand supporting the 2nd Amendment.

I don't understand supporting gun crime just because the murderer had a conceal carry permit. Something happens with some of the gun-obsessed, they become blinded by their love of a weapon. Very, very srtange.

[Paladin]

56. Fucking Bullseye, Sir....... (n/t)

[Starry Messenger]

21. Remember the Dr. Gates arrest? All the posters yelling "dash cam" like that would prove something?

Same fucking thing.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

26. I just posted an OP about this.

It's disgusting.

[Taverner]

37. Yeah and I thought it was a great post

Kind of identifies the trolls right away

[CakeGrrl]

28. He doesn't even rate being a "vigilante" - he's a racist, stalking murderer. Period.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

30. At least Travis Bickle killed pimps.

This piece of shit murdered an innocent kid.

[Taverner]

32. True - this would be more like he murdered the Jodie Foster character

[freshwest]

33. OMG, I stumbled on some of the defenders, or whatever:

Beware, this is terrible:

Fox News Commenters React to Trayvon Martin: ‘Good Shot Zimmy’

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/40088_Fox_News_Commenters_React_to_Trayvon_Martin-_Good_Shot_Zimmy

This must be what they were saying on the cable news network:

The Blaze: Do We Know Trayvon Martin Wasn't An Arsonist Kidnapper?

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201203210006

The comments on the link I followed from media matters are so vile, I hope I never walk down the same street as they do, or pass them on the road:

Al Sharpton Dismisses Self-Defense Argument in Shooting of Teen

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/al-sharpton-dismisses-self-defense-argument-in-shooting-of-teen/

This is what we get for not stopping a generation of hate radio pioneered by Rush Limbaugh.

Since I don't watch cable news or listen to the radio, and for a while only get news from the internet, I am not hearing how bad this stuff is. To know this makes want to go hide in a cave. If anyone wants me to delete this I will.

[Enrique]

38. on the 911 tape, he's heard to say under his breath

"one of these days I have to get organizized"

[Taverner]

39. Chill, meet spine...

[Norrin Radd]

45. kr

[iverglas]

49. once upon a time, many years ago in the Guns forum ...

There was a very similar tale posted and discussed.

On Hallowe'en night, a doorbell rang at the house of an accountant who happened to have a permit to carry a concealed weapon (although of course he didn't need that in his house) and a pistol.

He thought to himself: "Burglars!" Burglars, of course, always announce their intentions by ringing doorbells. And what better to do than open the door, when burglars are likely to be on the other side?

So he did open the door, with his trusty pistol in hand, of course, as was his wont when people rang his doorbell at night, apparently. On the lawn were two teenaged boys, running away. Amazing: neighbourhood kids were playing doorbell on Hallowe'en.

He shot at them. He hit one in the back and killed him.

The Guns regulars rallied around him. And no charges had been laid, so obviously the police and prosecutors agreed -- it was a righteous shoot! (And this was before that "castle law" crap, which would not have mattered anyway since the victim was not in or attempting to enter the killer's home.)

Nothing would sway them. So I vowed to keep an eye on the case. I googled from time to time.

And whaddaya know. He was charged and he pleaded guilty, although only to manslaughter.

I figure the local prosecutor figured the chance of getting a Florida jury to convict on murder was slim ...


the initial report and discussion in the Guns forum in 2003

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=29140#29252iverglas ... once again ... provides all the information about the Boca Raton / doorbell / teenager shot in the back story that anyone could possibly want.
]
(a little veteran moderator discussion there about civilityin the Guns forum, too )


Hell, over the years, the Guns forum has had its staunch defenders even of Tony Martin, the unbalanced bigot and cause célèbre of the right wing everywhere, who also shot a fleeing teenager in the back and killed him, in England, and was also eventually convicted.

[KamaAina]

53. I was thinking more like Bernie Goetz.

Except Trayvon didn't even ask him for money.

[jpak]

68. There is a nest of them on DU

They refuse to believe that their gun nuttery philosophy is not a Democratic Party value.

yup

[Wind Dancer]

69. One from another thread has been tombstoned.

[Taverner]

78. Pro-Gun is not Pro-NRA