"US, EU staged classic regime change in Ukraine."

[another_liberal]

The following is a brief but fascinating interview with political activist, Brian Becker, national coordinator of the ANSWER coalition. In it he offers a very different reading of the current Ukrainian turmoil than that generally available from our corporate controlled media:

The EU and US have carried out a classic coup d'état in Ukraine using ultra-right forces as human material, anti-war activist Brian Becker told RT. And cementing that victory with an IMF aid package would place Ukraine on a Greek path into Europe.

RT: The US and the EU are considering providing Ukraine with billions of dollars of financial aid. Do you think this will be effective considering the current climate in the country?

Brian Becker: Well the aid package comes because the United States and the EU have staged what is really a classic coup d'état ousting the elected government in Ukraine and carrying out the regime change which we felt was their agenda from the beginning ever since November when the EU gave Ukraine an ultimatum: “Are you with the EU, are you going to integrate into the EU – which of course eventually means integration into NATO – or are you with Russia?”

They were the ones who provoked this crisis, the protests started afterwards. A classic coup d'état has taken place. A rump session of parliament has ousted the existing, constitutionally-elected president. And now there is a reign of terror by semi-fascist and ultra-right groups against others.

So the aid package has to be seen in that context. Behind the aid package, which is designed to stabilize Ukraine as it integrates into the planned integration into the EU, is austerity measures that are really going to hurt the Ukrainian people, especially working people and the poor. That is the real path into the EU. It’s not going to be the German path. It will be the Greek path for Ukraine.

RT: Catherine Ashton is in Kiev right now and a number of US top officials are set to visit the country in the coming days. What does Brussels and the US hope to achieve during those visits?

BB: Well they are basically taking over. The human material has been far-right parties. Of course many citizens have legitimate grievances against the Yanukovich government, there is an intertanglement of all that, but the main vanguard of this movement was the ultra-right, semi-fascist, and hard right but they have had wind in their cells because of the intervention of the EU and the European governments and the US. And of course they are there now to show the new government, the coup d'état, that “we the West with all of our vast power, our banks, our military, our intelligence agencies, we are with you.” This is designed to shore up those that have taken the power in Ukraine against what may be the next stage of the struggle against those who wanted to go on a different path, who had historically closer relations to Russia or who don’t want just to be minions of the EU and the imperialist powers of the West.

RT: If you look at the beginning of all this, this has kind of started as Ukraine and their relationship with the EU, Brussels now says it will not be signing a trade agreement with Ukraine for now and will wait for the outcome of May’s elections. What are the chances of the deal being sealed then?

BB: The EU is playing with carrots and sticks. There is economic integration, which is going to mean that big parts of Ukraine’s working population will see a deterioration in their living style. The fantasy about entering Europe, with streets being lined with gold, that is a fantasy because the real project is the IMF-based austerity program. They can’t fully implement that program right at the moment because it will be a stark reminder of or a confrontation with the reality that integration into the EU will be a bad deal for many, many Ukrainians, millions of them.

So they may want to hold off for a few months in order to try and stabilize the situation politically. Now that they ousted the existing government, carried out the regime change in this important country in that it’s historically tied to Russia – 46 million people, the second-biggest military in Europe – they want to hold off because that economic program has a lot of sticks, not just carrots, mostly sticks for the poor and working people of Ukraine.

http://rt.com/op-edge/us-usa-staged-ukraine-coup-570/

Particularly note worthy are the warnings Mr. Becker has for the poor and working classes of Ukraine concerning what accepting loans from the IMF and meeting the requirements necessary to achieve EU membership will mean for them. Not a pretty picture, and a hard one to dismiss out of hand, especially when one has the experience of Greece and Spain to consider.

Here is a link to more on the A.N.S.W.E.R Coalition:

http://www.answercoalition.org/

[Spider Jerusalem]

1. Russia Today is not really an unbiased or accurate source of reportage on events in Ukraine.

It is basically the Putin Propaganda Network.

[Scootaloo]

3. So the interview is fake? n/t

[another_liberal]

5. Why do you say that?

Can you explain the accusation, or is that just wishful thinking?

[Scootaloo]

10. I'm asking Spider if he thinks the interview was faked.

His assertion is that RT isn't "reliable." Which I find to be a rather nonsensical statement to make about an interview; either the interview happened or it didn't, right?

[Scootaloo]

20. Cool you defensiveness chief, I'm with you on this one

As I said, griping about a source's reliability in response ot an interview is just damned silly. So I'm fishing to see if there's some speck of relevancy to the accusation levied. It strikes me as perfectly irrelevant, in this particular context. Either the interview is accurate, or it is not. RT's political tendencies just don't factor in with regards to the content at hand.

[another_liberal]

26. My mistake.

I misread you.

[truth2power]

47. Scootaloo - What you're seeing is a TYPICAL response from

a certain contingent here who are tasked with keeping discussions from straying too far afield of the party line.

Aside from being a form of ad hominem argument (attacking the messenger instead of addressing the message itself) it sometimes succeeds in shutting down discussion of that which is too inconvenient to note.

At one time or another, just about every person, place, or thing on the planet has been decreed, usually with no evidence whatsoever, to be lacking in credibility. It's a facile techinique, guaranteed to serve its purpose.

We are supposed to be the smart ones. I assume most see through this.

As far as Ukraine, the US govt. has been using the same playbook going back at least as far as Iran in the 50's (Mossadegh) because it works so well.

[Cali_Democrat]

6. No, but the guy just throws out a bunch of wild accusations

...with no evidence.

[another_liberal]

8. For example . . .

. . .?

[randome]

52. What ISN'T an exaggeration in this Russian mouthpiece article?

'Classic coup d'etat'. But no evidence. Not even vague implications, just, he knows and everyone else knows so...who needs any stinking evidence? Russia Today is Putin's mouthpiece and it should stop being referenced here.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[another_liberal]

55. One has to have followed the events . . .

Mr. Becker appears to have assumed his readers would have a certain level knowledge regarding the last few weeks' events in Kiev. The evidence was in our faces day after day, though one did need to be a bit more discriminating and critical than some of those who merely made up the cheering section for the Maidan Molotov cocktail brigade.

BTW: I honestly can't understand a blanket condemnation of RT News, except as symptom of Russophobic malice. Can you help me understand where that seemingly unreasonable rejection of an entire major news service comes from? They are not a cluster of buffoons, like Fox News, and while I don't always agree with their point of view, I have never found them to provide inaccurate news. Can you give me a reason why so many here seem to feel so negatively toward that source? To disagree with a source is one thing, but to outright condemn it is quite another.

[randome]

56. It is widely known as a propaganda piece for Russia and Putin.

Just like this article, I don't have 'evidence' to support that conclusion, it's only what everyone already knows.

Really, though, staging 'regime change' by offering EU membership and then calling it 'classic coup d'etet'? The hyperbole is a little much.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[another_liberal]

60. How could you have and evidence?

It's clearly just an emotion-driven and fact-free opinion.

Just thought I'd give you a chance to explain. Thanks anyway.

[Scootaloo]

11. Then wouldn't it do to say "Brain Becker is an unreliable source..."

and - I dunno - accuse ANSWER of being a "Putin propaganda network" or something?

[Scootaloo]

21. I know

I'm telling these guys to try to make a little more sense - or at least be more precise - with their criticisms

[another_liberal]

25. Thank you. I misread your intentions completely.

I'm a little gun-shy of late, Scootaloo. Taking an unpopular stand around here can bring on the pressure. (sigh)

[Spider Jerusalem]

22. I didn't say that.

[Scootaloo]

23. Either the interview is portrayed accurately or its not (i.e., fake)

You're pointing out that RT is not unbiased or accurate. Okay. What relevancy does this have to the interview in the OP? Any boas in the interview comes from the person being interviewed, and since the guy's organization copies hte interview, I have to guess it was accurately recorded by RT. So, what's your argument here?

[Spider Jerusalem]

30. The interview represents a particular point of view which is nonsensical...

but it's understandable that the Kremlin's propaganda network would choose to advance it, since it makes the pro-Russian side in the Ukraine look like the good guys. (EU integration has majority support in Ukraine, by the way; has done in polls going back to at least last May. Any claims that the protests and anti-Yanukovych sentiment were instigated by the US and EU manipulating extreme right-wingers? They don't stand up to any credible analysis.)

[BelgianMadCow]

34. Do you have a link for that "majority support for EU integration"? That's not what I saw

[Spider Jerusalem]

48. Here, for one:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-21/ukrainian-parliament-fails-to-adopt-tymoshenko-law-for-eu-accord.html

[BelgianMadCow]

49. That single instance poll indeed contradicts the series I posted.

Let's assume both have some validity. Neither indicates margins of error.

The question is, with what the country favours being so strongly split eastern-western Ukraine, is it sensible to force the policy preference of one half of the population on the other? The speed with which the russian-leaning half of the country was thrown under the bus is frightening (and stupid).

See for example this poll that illustrates the regional divide: http://uceps.org/eng/poll.php?poll_id=666

[Spider Jerusalem]

54. Whether it's "sensible" or not is neither here nor there, really

every poll I've seen shows a plurality of support for EU association, and some show a majority (see also this); the proportion of the population that favours joining a Russian-led customs union is in every instance a minority. Support or opposition for alignment with Russia vs a future in Europe seems to be not just regional but cultural; see for instance THIS map:



I don't really see how it's "sensible" for Yanukovych to unilaterally reverse a policy that has majority support in favour of an association with Russia that most Ukrainians don't want; it's certainly undemocratic, anyway.

[BelgianMadCow]

66. have lots of fun in your binary world

and thanks for showing how divided that country is. At least the BS EU line of "they all want to join us" doesn't stand anymore.

[Spider Jerusalem]

70. Doesn't matter if they all do, only matters if a majority do

that's how democracy works, you know.

[another_liberal]

4. Oh really? Does CNN tell you all you need to know?

It is easier and more comfortable to just reject opposing views without considering their possible value, isn't it?

One of my undergrad professors once told me: "The first step in becoming educated is to admit that you don't already know everything that there is to know."

[Spider Jerusalem]

28. I don't watch TV news, generally.

And I don't watch American TV news, specifically--because, in the first place, I don't live in the US, and in the second place, it's shallow, superficial, lacks any kind of international perspective, and seems to be aimed at an audience of half-bright 10-year-olds with ADHD.

And I can dismiss this "opposing view" pretty easily. Repeated recent polls have found more support among the Ukrainian population for association with the EU and eventual EU membership than for joining a Russian-dominated "customs union". Yanukovych's suspension of the EU Association Agreement was the catalyst, not the EU or the West's actions. Becker is a useful idiot.

[another_liberal]

31. "It's shallow, superficial, lacks any kind of international perspecttive . . ."

. . . and seems to be aimed at an audience of half-bright 10-year-olds with ADHD."

Ambassador Duke would be proud of that.

As to the polls: I wonder what they'll be saying about that in a few more weeks, when the EU lets it be known what they expect in return?

[El_Johns]

33. whose polls?

[socialist_n_TN]

95. "Becker is a useful idiot". Classic red baiting there....

I've heard that phrase all my life for anyone who presents some sort of anti-capitalist view.

The Ukrainian situation IS somewhat complicated, but it seems clear to me that there's ANOTHER classic theme going on there. As in classic Shock Doctrine. Expect this to result, if it goes to it's logical Shock Doctrine conclusion, a handful of Ukrainian millionaires (the ones with insider status with the EU and IMF) and MILLIONS of average people falling into poverty thanks to the austerity and privatization that will be required for IMF funds to "stabilize" the situation and country. And I'd pretty much be willing to bet the rent that eventually we'll all find out that the DEstablization of the country will have been CAUSED by international capitalism and their IMF and EU proxies. There's also quite a bit of imperialist conflict between the EU and Russia going on too.

As I said complicated. I expect it to get even more complicated when the eastern half tries to split away from the western half.

[Spider Jerusalem]

107. I don't really see any "anti-capitalism" there.

Anti-Americanism, anti-Westernism, no anti-capitalism. Unless you're positing modern Russian-style oligarchic gangsterism as anti-capitalist, that is.

[AverageJoe90]

32. Very true, sadly.

Don't get me wrong, Alyona and Thom Hartmann are great folks. But the network as a whole is full of bad info.....

[jtuck004]

43. I realize it is on the Internet, but we have a DUer, Mattsh, I think it was,

who lives in Kiev.

And I think that person would mostly agree with that article, and sees the U.S. influence on fomenting this protest - anything to keep Russia from expanding into the area.

[MattSh]

111. Since I see my name here...

Here's something I posted today about the financial situation in Ukraine. But it's dropping like a rock...

Bank Runs, Currency Devaluation - What's next for Ukraine

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024567447

[sibelian]

88. That doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter whether or not it's the "Putin Propaganda Network."

ALL reporting is propaganda. The use of the term "propaganda" by any critic serves only to obscure the absence of any actual criticism. It never means anything else.

"IT's JUST PROPAGANDA!"

Meaning what?

"THEY'RE TRYING TO GET YOU TO BELIEVE SOMETHING!"

Yes. Of course they are. That's what people do when they report things. calling it Propaganda just adds a spicy little flavour of "oooooh, might be fibs, ya know." It doesn't, in and of itself, actually say anything.

In order for the report to lack legitimacy, it's claims have to be contradicted.

Feel free to contradict it's details using political analysis of the actual situation it describes. After you've pointed out all the actual things that the actual report has actually got wrong, I will believe you.

[Bluenorthwest]

92. The OP introduces that theme, US media is dismissed as 'Corporate Controlled'

and that means it is only fair to point out how RT is run, it is an actual State owned media apparatus, designed for the purpose of influencing the discussion in places outside of that particular State.
Anyone who rejects 'corporate media' but embraces government owned and operated media is half correct and half deluded. Both should be considered to be tools of their ownership. 'I trust the government' is daft idea, no matter which government is in question.

[sibelian]

97. I agree. But...

While that aspect of the report is indeed identical in structure to the criticism aimed by Spider, the report also makes suppositions about the future of ukrainians. I think that's the bit that's actually interesting, also the idea that there is unreported EU and US influence interests me. My response to Spider primarily concerned the absence of hs response to those points.

Anyway, I think I'm probably on his ignore list...

[sabrina 1]

121. What do you think of the substance of the interview? It wasn't rocket science you know, most

people around the globe knew what was going on. 'Attack the source'. Does that mean you disagree? Because this is not the ONLY source that has been reporting on the fact that this was all about Ukraine refusing to join the EU. I believe outside of the US, no one doubts it. Same thing in Libya, in Syria, now in Venezuela. This is the MO of the Western Imperial states, if a country doesn't 'behave' according to their view of how things ought to be run, FINANCIALLY, suddenly there are protests, peaceful at first, then escalating until the government if forced out.

They moved too soon this time though, with the IMF and The World Bank moving in before the smoke had settled.

Next up, Venezuela, they are having difficulty in Syria, but that won't stop them.

I suppose they don't care anymore that the rest of the world is not fooled by these 'uprisings' and who is behind them. At least at one time we tried to pretend we were supportive of the democratic process.

[Cali_Democrat]

2. LOL...nt

[another_liberal]

7. It's not a humor piece . . .

Not at all.

[Cali_Democrat]

9. I know...that's what makes it funny.

They were actually trying to be serious.

I don't know how anybody can read that interview with a straight face.

[another_liberal]

12. I see nothing at all to laugh about . . .

Concerning what is happening in Ukraine, I see nothing at all to laugh about.

[Union Scribe]

17. They laugh because they can afford to.

It doesn't affect them one way or the other. They just move on to the next show.

[another_liberal]

19. I wonder . . .

Will they regret supporting the kind of people who have seized power in Ukraine when this grand experiment goes into the crapper, or will they bury those memories under accustomed rationalization and denial?

[dipsydoodle]

44. Those "memories" can't be buried

They are recorded here on DU. Its called advance search.

When, as now seems likely, Ukraine makes Greece look like a picnic in the park it will be interesting to see who said what here.

[socialist_n_TN]

96. Ah, but by that time there will be ANOTHER situation that they can.......

support the 1% on and Ukraine will be forgotten. That's ALWAYS been the MO of the apologists of neo-liberalism.

[Union Scribe]

14. It's important to consider what he says

I think those dismissing problems with this whole situation are gravely mistaken. It's so easy for armchair freedom fighters to rah rah about other people's protests and revolutions, without thinking about what goes into them or their consequences. Even if someone completely buys into it, they should still be cautionary rather than celebratory as anyone with functioning brain cells knows that disaster capitalists are never far behind any disaster, natural or man-made.

[another_liberal]

16. Well said.

Thank you for being open minded.

[malaise]

29. Very well said

One more thing though - why have all the Western media who were pushing this mess suddenly taken it off the TV and front pages?

The Shock Doctrine is live and well.

[BelgianMadCow]

37. After ONE whole day, we "suddenly" learn that Ukraine needs 35 billion and the IMF stands ready

with a "rescue". Confessions of an economic hit man & shock doctrine do come to mind, how could they not? I predict some of the industrial base in eastern Ukraine is gonna get sold on the cheap to some western-approved oligarchs real soon.

[malaise]

39. Eastern Ukraine has serioous ties to Moscow - they may try

but that won't happen.
How to terrorize people and loot their resources - it's the prevailing global paradigm.

[socialist_n_TN]

124. I didn't know that. But then I'm just now starting to research this situation.......

And if those industries are in eastern Ukraine, then yep, there might be a problem. I HAVE already heard that militias are already organizing in the eastern (or Russian) Ukraine and of course the Russian army is mobilizing on the border too. At it's heart this is appearing more and more as a Shock Doctrine power grab being opposed by the imperial ambitions of Russia against the imperial ambitions of the EU and the capitalist machinations of the IMF. Not a hero in the bunch. Yet.

I do wish that the bulk of the people in all areas would begin to self organize around neighborhood and workplace councils. At that point they might have some power to affect the situation. Dual power for the people is better than no power at all. Otherwise, it will be the masses in poverty and a handful of insider Ukrainian millionaires. Or a divided Ukraine with the east a part of Russia. And ALL of it under a civil war.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

64. just like it's important to consider this guy :

sP

[sibelian]

73. Not really a criticism.

But, yeah, I suppose that's amusing.

[socialist_n_TN]

99. You beat me to it with your reference to Disaster Capitalism......

See my post #95 for a similar take on the situation. It looks like classic Disaster Capitalism to me. This will shake out with a handful of RW and opportunistic Ukrainian insiders becoming fabulously wealthy, while the majority of the population falls into poverty.

[redqueen]

103. +1

[Democracyinkind]

18. I wouldn't call it "classical".

It's rather regime change 2.0 like with most "colored" revolutions. Not so much brute force as the strategic distribution of the necessary tools and funds to pull it off.

At least the people are really involved in this model and we're not just paying random thugs to do mayhem like in Chile or Iran back in the day.

[another_liberal]

24. It was a lighter touch, no doubt.

Unless, of course, you happen to be one of the Ukrainian policemen still in a hospital with severe burns you got from a protester's Molotov cocktail, or a Rada parliament member who was forced to flee Kiev for his life, because you belonged to Yanukovich's former majority coalition.

[Democracyinkind]

27. Of course. I do not want to downplay anyone's suffering.

The people that plan this kind of shit treat the people that implement it like disposable trash, no excusing that. I certainly didn't want to say that their suffering doesn't count.

But blood-and-gore-wise, this is nothing compared to regime change 1.0 from the 20th century. Still sucks if you're one of those being slaughtered for the show, of course.

[BelgianMadCow]

35. "those necessary funds" - like the 5 billion Victoria Nuland boasted about?

That's not to say Russia is an innocent do-gooder - at all. But it would be nice to see DU not bury its head so deep about your own involvement.

[Democracyinkind]

40. That would be an example.

The Konrad Adenauer Stiftung is also heavily invested in regime change in Ukraine. There's lots of money to be had lately.

Russia is playing the same game, of course. They're just more into cash than foundations

And yes, somehow there's this tendency on DU to say that discussing the geopolitics of this overhtrow is somehow belittling the Ukrainian people. I'm so used to that argument that I just ignore it. All revolutions come in shades of grey, and geopolitics usually throw the greatest shadows.

[blkmusclmachine]

36. Change you can beLIEve in, bay-bee!

[okaawhatever]

38. Brian Becker and his organization have zero credibility. It's a shame someone posted this drivel

on here. I'll make it easy and just post the wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.N.S.W.E.R.

Why won't Becker discuss where the citizens will be if they don't sign with the EU? Where is his outrage at the gas prices and gas dependency Russia has fostered? Why doesn't he discuss how Yanukovych changed the Constitution shortly after being elected to give himself more power, how he said he'd hold a referendum on renewing the lease for the Russian Black Sea Fleet and then three months after being elected extended it for 25 years without any advance notice in exchange for "reduced gas prices". The lease wasn't even up for 7 more years.

Why doesn't Becker talk about how the Constitution was changed to allow foreigners to buy land there and then shortly thereafter sold 9% of it's farmland to China? Part of the deal was to build a highway in Crimea and a bridge linking Crimea to Russia????? How is that good for the people of Ukraine?

Why doesn't Becker talk about anything that doesn't suit his political agenda?

[dipsydoodle]

42. Ukraine may have needed those funds at that time

and had few if any other alternatives. They didn't exactly give it the new lease for the naval base away.

From April 2010 :

The price for the lease of the Russian Black Sea Fleet's naval base in Ukraine is overvalued, but Moscow agreed to it for the benefit of raising cooperation and trust with Kiev, the Russian prime minister said.

The deal, signed by the Russian and Ukrainian presidents on April 21, extends the lease on the Russian base in the Ukranian port of Sevastopol for 25 years after the current lease expires in 2017, and may be further extended by another five years. In exchange, Ukraine is to recieve a 30% discount on Russian natural gas supplies.

"The price asked for [the lease of the base] is out-of-limits," Vladimir Putin, who is currently in Ukraine on an official visit, said.

"But for us [Russia] this issue is not only a matter of money, but a matter of cooperation with Ukraine, cooperation in the military sector, which undoubtedly raises the level of trust and possibilities for credible work in economic and social sectors. This is most important," Putin said.

The Russian prime minister reiterated that under the signed agreement on the lease of the base Russia would pay over $40 billion over ten years.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20100427/158760129.html

It was if nothing else a source of funds for Ukraine who remain in dire need.

See -

Ukraine needs money, and fast - in weeks, not months. But bailing out the country of 46 million people will not be a matter of simply writing a big check.

For one, Ukraine has already burned the main international financial rescuer, the International Monetary Fund, by failing to keep to the terms of earlier bailouts from 2008 and 2010.

Now it needs help again, and its economic and financial problems are worse than before.

The currency is sliding, raising concerns that companies that owe money in foreign currency could go bust. Banks are fragile. A rescue with outside lenders can't be agreed until there's a government. And Russia could make things worse by demanding on-time payment for natural gas supplies or withdrawing a recently granted break on the price.

- See more at: http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/how-and-from-where-will-ukraine-get-its-money/article1-1188238.aspx#sthash.OrVoHBB9.dpuf

A key element there is the manner in which gas is paid for. It alludes to payment in advance as opposed to the current situation of heavily in arrears - was $3.3 billion unpaid Feb. 3rd. Not sure what you mean about Russia fostering gas dependency : there is no other practical supply.

Ukraine Has $3.3Bln Unpaid Gas Bill – Gazprom http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140203/187164045/Ukraines-Gas-Debt-to-Russia-Rising--Report.html

[okaawhatever]

45. If you're going to believe that bull$#it Russian propaganda then there's no point in spending time

clearing it up.

[dipsydoodle]

46. Its either true or false.

If you believe it to be false then feel free to post links to the contrary

[BelgianMadCow]

50. Right. Thank god we all forgot the US media lied about the pretext for war in Iraq.

No propaganda there, no sir.

[another_liberal]

51. Pardon my saying so, . . .

But that sounds like a "bull$#it" way of avoiding a discussion of your unfounded accusations.

[hobbit709]

53. and the jury results are in.

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

I am really getting tired of my posts being called things like crap, bullocks, bullshit and "drivel." A debate is fine but this kind of thing is pure insult. Please make an example of this
one so reply so others may have some decency.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:36 AM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's an opinion, not an attack.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There is nothing wrong with this. The writer is giving a different side to the story in the OP
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Drivel is a hideworthy word? What's next?
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[another_liberal]

58. Proud of that are you?

Some people appear to glory in being uncivil and insulting.

"By their works they will be known."

[hobbit709]

61. If someone can't take being told bullshit, they need to stay off a public forum.

I've been called every name in the book and then some, in at least 6 languages. I just let it roll off.
I guess some people are more easily offended than others.

[another_liberal]

62. There are rules that come with posting on Democratic Underground.

Ignore them at your own risk, hobbit.

[hobbit709]

71. I think by now I know what the rules are.

Is that a threat?

[another_liberal]

72. How could it be a threat?

Except in that one may find one's comments hidden should he persist in insulting his fellow DU members. Right?

[Jakes Progress]

89. Sometimes you make a point.

Other times you shoot yourself i the foot.

You don't like people being uncivil and insulting. But you don't have any qualms calling them childish and boring?

Nothing to do with the ideas of the OP, but you shouldn't do what you condemn.

[another_liberal]

109. Correction . . .

I meant that behavior was childish and boring. But I take your point and will alter my text. Thanks.

[Common Sense Party]

126. Why on earth would you alert on that post????

That makes NO sense.

[another_liberal]

129. The cumulative effect of little injustices . . .

Shouldn't be underestimated, my friend.

At any rate, though, it's surely now time to move on.

[BelgianMadCow]

41. The tale of a russian & US expert on Ukraine at TRNN is a valuable addition to this thread

&feature=player_embedded

Outside meddling by US, EU, Russia: YES
Genuine revolution against oligarchs at the start: YES
Easy way out? NO, especially with the complex situation, consider for example the Krim (Crimea) region.

Those who meddled have blood on their hands. In my view, the US primarily and the EU as well have poured fuel on the fire. Russia isn't innocent, but at least they didn't plan to extract austerity, and neither did they come out with heavy rhetoric.

The US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland arrived at Europe Square in Kiev to bring tea and cake for protesters and the special units of the police.
Nuland has been in Kiev for the second day, meeting opposition leaders during her visit. Protesters were also met on December 10 by the United Nations High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Matters Catherine Ashton.

Video at link.

This would be like Lavrov visiting a protest in New York aimed at overthrowing the US government and handing out cookies.

That was december 11th.

[KoKo]

77. Recommend viewing...

:kick:

[Bad Thoughts]

57. The EU and US made Yunakovich shoot his own people?

That the primary reason for Yunakovich lost legitimacy. If your conspiracy theory can't explain that, your theory is full of shit.

[randome]

59. Hey, that's 'classic regime change' right there. Don't you know anything about history?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[another_liberal]

65. If the Tea Party rioted in D.C., angry mobs threw firebombs at the White House . . .

And gunmen were firing on the Capitol Police, would you complain if President Obama ordered the police to return fire?

[geek tragedy]

85. So you support him ordering snipers to shoot at protestors?

And all of the other repressive measures he ordered?

As well as his deep corruption and outright theft?

Please don't pretend you're interested in democracy when you support tyranny because your geopolitical team does it.

[Adrahil]

87. Yeah, cuz this was exactly like that... #jumpedtheshark

Yeah, Yanukovich is just a guy who wants peace.

http://tinyurl.com/lpb5qaa

[ProdigalJunkMail]

63. relying on an RT interview about Ukraine

is like getting your facts about aliens from 'interviews' on The History Channel.



sP

[another_liberal]

67. Yep, violent overthrow of a democratically elected government . . .

Is just a big fucking laugh. Ain't it?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

69. this guy's version of events?

yes... HIS VERSION is bullshit and laughable.

but you keep lovin' your RT... I am sure the 'aliens' guy is right, too.

sP

[another_liberal]

74. Upon reflection, your mockery is really of no importance.

This is a serious question of whether one supports democracy or believes in mob rule and the violent overthrow of democratically elected leaders, with the encouragement of our own government and its allies.

Do have fun though.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

78. and good luck with your complete belief in horseshit... n/t

[sibelian]

75. Is it?

I'm sure you can provide us with examples of RT's unreliability as a news source?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

79. this... is a perfect example

but you go on loving the propaganda...

RT makes FoxNews look like the highest standard in news reporting...

sP

[sibelian]

91. OK, so you propose that the report is bad beause the source is bad

I ask you for examples to back up your claim and you provide me with the example that 's under dispute as evidence for your point.

That's called ASSUMING THE THING YOU'RE SETTING OUT TO PROVE. It's actully pretty impressive as most examples of circular logic I've pulled to bits at least involve one or two actual STEPS along the circle. Your circle consists of ONE STEP.

There's no point saying silly things like "You go on loving the propaganda" - you have absolutely no idea whatsoever what my actual position on this subject is. It's like you're an automaton talking to an imaginary friend.

LET'S PLAY A GAME.

Let's pretend I'm not whatever you need me to be to make you feel like a clever person on an Internet message board but a real person potentially persuadable that you have a believable point to make about the RT. Go ahead, make it. If it looks like the paper is operating outside ordinary standards of objective journalism, well let's see how! Wouldn't that be interesting?

Hint: You needn't start off on the "MEEEEEEH! It'S RUSSIA!!!!" foot. That's not going to convince me.

Actual, fact/or/evidence-based contradictions of the report's CLAIMS are VERY likely to convince me.

[Bluenorthwest]

93. The OP waves off other opinion by questioning the sources, here's the quote:

"In it he offers a very different reading of the current Ukrainian turmoil than that generally available from our corporate controlled media."

Then the OP offers a story from Government owned and operated media. As if it is above all agenda. Anyone who is suspect of 'Corporate Media' while promoting as gospel a source that is literally owned by one of the major State players in the story is a hypocrite or an idiot. 'Don't listen to CNN, it's Corporate Controlled, listen to RT, owned and operated by the Putin government!!!!!' Sorry but I will remain skeptical of media, not of some media but not other media.

[sibelian]

98. Yeah, I understand that...

so we have to have the actual story...

I think we agree.

[geek tragedy]

86. Besides the fact it's run by Russia's government?

Ok.

http://gawker.com/russia-today-airs-fake-footage-of-rebels-using-sarin-ga-1342865358

RT is the favorite source of people who wish the USSR had won the Cold War.

[EX500rider]

123. It seems most the RT's believers like them some Al Jazeera too..

.....CNN, NBC, BBC, Deutsche Welle-etc all lying corporate/govt mouthpieces and propagandists...

For the "real truth" go to:

RT: Russian Govt Owned, very trust worthy of 'course, who can't trust a former KBG guy like Putin?

Al Jazeera: The very own opinions and slant of the Emir of Qatar, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa, a trustworthy non-1%er i am sure..

[SidDithers]

68. RT. LOL...nt

Sid

[another_liberal]

76. Will you laugh if our democracy is taken away from us?

Or will you even realize it has happened?

[librechik]

83. I didn't laugh and i'm still not laughing.

same people did us long ago. And I get laughed AT for realizing it.

[geek tragedy]

84. As if the ANSWER crowd believes in democracy.

They lick the boots of virtually every anti-American dictator on the planet.

They make Dennis Rodman look like a scathing critic of North Korea.

They are foul, lying authoritarian propagandists. Nothing more.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

80. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

And a nation's citizens who are fed up with government corruption and creeping outside influence from its larger neighbor is just a nation's citizens who are fed up with government corruption and creeping outside influence from its larger neighbor.

[sibelian]

113. I wouldn't disagree that government corruption is the primary triggering factor

But I don't think that establishing that actually contradicts or circumvents the observation that self interested and potentially exploitative parties could also benefit and/or manipulate the situation to their own advantage.

Revolutions and coups almost NEVER result in the happy Utopia that those instigating or prosecuting them hope they will achieve.

[geek tragedy]

81. A.N.S.W.E.R. are Stalinist authoritarians, so duh.

This gives me reason to support what's going on in the Ukraine.

[another_liberal]

100. Stalinist? You really want to go on record with that?

Last edited Wed Feb 26, 2014, 04:48 PM - Edit history (1)

Your opinion is shared, however, by this outfit:

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/answerprofilestand.html

They do denounce the A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition for what they call, ". . . association with the Stalinist Workers World Party." But they are hardly what I would call a reliable source, as a quick perusal of their home page should suggest:

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/

[geek tragedy]

108. Answer was founded by the WWP. It remains

an outfit that supports regimes like the DPRK.

Becker is an old school authoritarian anti-USA Stalinist tankie.

http://www.workers.org/ww/2000/korea0309.php

In other words, a dinosaur.

Their opinion is every bit as valid as Ted Nugent's.

[another_liberal]

110. Do you have a link to the source . . .

I would be amazed if that is actually true. Do you have a link to the source which claims they support, "Regimes like the DPRK?"

[geek tragedy]

112. Check my edit. Becker wrote a love letter

to North Korea on the WWP's website.

Imperialist sabotage of energy agreement only stiffens resolve

By Brian Becker and Sharon Ayling

The authors traveled to the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea from Feb. 19 to Feb. 26 in a Workers World Party delegation.

The people in the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea (DPRK) or north Korea are in the midst of a severe power and energy shortage that is adversely affecting the overall economic life of the country.

The energy shortage, mainly in electrical power, has caused major problems in heating and lighting, railway transport and agricultural production.

The DPRK's energy crisis has a variety of causes. The single biggest reason, however, has been the deliberate sabotage by the United States government of the 1994 Framework Agreement that the DPRK signed with the U.S.

http://www.workers.org/ww/2000/korea0309.php

He is a stooge, a charlatan, a WWP company man, and a licker of dictators' boots.

[another_liberal]

116. I see some support for the "people" of North Korea . . .

And some criticism of United States policies, but it's hardly an endorsement of the DPRK government. Right?

[geek tragedy]

118. wrong.

The Workers Party of Korea carried out a smooth transition in leadership. Kim Jong Il became head of the party after the death of Kim Il Sung, the much revered leader of the Korean revolution. There were no severe splits or cleavages inside the Workers Party of Korea of the type that had prompted the collapse of governments in the USSR and Eastern Europe.

Instead of rejecting socialism, the Workers Party of Korea announced its deep commitment to socialism and the eventual transition to communism. Although it faced devastating shortages and production declines, the course pursued by the DPRK was entirely different from what had taken place in the former Soviet Union during the 1990s, when millions of workers were summarily fired, laid off, and deprived of housing and health care services after the Soviet government was overthrown.

In the DPRK, the workers and farmers are upheld as the masters of society. Without glossing over the widespread material hardships imposed by the loss of the Soviet bloc and U.S.-sponsored economic sanctions, the leadership of the DPRK refuses to embrace the so-called miracle of the capitalist market.

He was a freaking delegate from the WWP to North Korea.

Sorry, but anyone who isn't willfully blind can see what Becker and his fellow WWP authoritarian flunkies are. What they aren't is credible.

[librechik]

82. yeah, slick, huh? Much smoother than Egypt or Libya.

not kidding.

[Coyotl]

94. Of course, Egypt and Lybia are polar opposites.

One was an oil war waged by outsiders, the other a popular uprising.

[another_liberal]

105. Much smoother, and fewer fingerprints too.

Almost everyone just lapped it up, no questions asked.

[treestar]

90. So the people protesting there

Don't know their own minds? Unwittingly they just do what the US and EU want.

[another_liberal]

102. Do you deny that the West has been encouraging . . .

As to your question: Of course not, no one is suggesting anything that simplistic. There clearly were genuine, independent Ukrainian patriots among the protesters in Maidan Square; in fact, I would hold that the vast majority of protesters were such patriots. I would also imagine that the minority of violent and even fascistic hooligans who actually attacked police and vandalized government buildings are a continuing source of embarrassment to those genuine patriots.

Let me ask you this, however, do you mean to deny that the United States and the West in general has been encouraging and cheering on the protests? It would be short work to prove that they have indeed done so. A quick Google search using any number of related terms would do the trick.

[treestar]

122. so what if they were?

I'm sure they would be glad of any help.

[Progressive dog]

101. From media owned by the Russian opposition

comes news that the EU overthrew the government of the Ukraine.
Why is the Ukrainian parliament not arrested yet?

[another_liberal]

104. Is there a link to that?

Sounds intriguing.

[Progressive dog]

115. Well known that RT news is Russian,

they even admit it.
I can't believe you don't know that.

[another_liberal]

117. I do, of course, know RT News is Russian (It's even in the name).

I was referring to the content of your post. Any link to a source for those comments.

[geek tragedy]

119. lmgtfy.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22russia+today%22+funded+by+russian+government

[Progressive dog]

120. Oh, you were referring to the headline you posted

"US, EU staged classic regime change in Ukraine."
That one.

[msanthrope]

106. So, if I read this right, Obama got us the Ukraine, and Putin has Comrade Eddie as a

consolation prize.

Damn, Obama is good.

[Tarheel_Dem]

114. There you have it folks, straight from the Kremlin sponsored media outlet.

[KittyWampus]

125. RussianTimes & ANSWER are as credible as FOX News & the Tea Party

[sadoldgirl]

127. Why does anyone think

that Russia would take this in stride? Even if both sides tried to get into the decisions the Ukrainians make, it is clear that Putin will use the Monroe doctrine. By the way joining the EU does not mean the Euro-zone. After watching Greece and other countries in that zone I doubt that the Ukraine would even consider it. It would be foolish; besides I don't think that Germany or Finland would accept that, now Goldman-Sachs is a different story.

[frwrfpos]

128. recommend

thank you