General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsYes, acknowledging privilege is hard work.
It's difficult to admit that through no fault of our own necessarily, our race/gender/sexual orientation/sexual identity/religion/caste/ level of education gives us a certain access that we would necessarily not have had if we were members of that particular privileged category.
However, without knowing how your particular social group membership privileges you, it becomes impossible for you to see how others are equivalently oppressed by their group memberships.
For instance, I am queer but gender conforming, which means that on a daily basis I don't get harassed for being queer. However, my wife does.
To understand oppression, one needs to understand the opposite of oppression (privilege).
No one is seeking to make you 'confess' your privilege, but being aware of your privilege makes you more likely to understand how the lack of it effects other people.
It's really your choice whether or not you want to be defensive about this privilege, or understand how your privilege works in a society. However, I really doubt that you know better than the oppressed group how they should go about talking about their oppression.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Laelth
(32,017 posts)This is the precise problem I have with a few women who absolutely refuse to acknowledge the privileges women enjoy in this society.
Well said.
-Laelth
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 27, 2014, 07:52 PM - Edit history (1)
Had he been a young white girl, he would have had the privilege to walk home without being profiled and gunned down by a racist with a gun.
Walking home without being viewed as suspicious is a privilege he wasn't able to enjoy.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)the number of people that would not happen to (including me, and i am not white)
eridani
(51,907 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)good point....some folks are privileged in ways others are not.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)Iggo
(47,534 posts)That's a perfect example.
JJChambers
(1,115 posts)I love it.
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)As daunting as it is, it would serve the greater good more than browbeating those being offered unsolicited privilege.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)what's harder to admit is that it benefits some of us.
hence, the defensiveness around privilege and the universal acknowledgement that racism is bad.
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)Both exist. Getting rid of both is the goal.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I realize this is going to be a rhetorical point, but it's a good one: how would an average ordinary white person feel if he were subjected to being pulled over for no good reason, or targeted by a racist hate group and nothing is done to help them, etc.?
My point is, to the uninitiated, it often gives off the impression that we want to make them suffer the problems that People of Color do sometimes face on a daily basis, that we want them to be brought down to their level. For goodness sakes, that's not what we want! At all! We want NOBODY to have to worry about being arrested for a bullshit reason, or worrying about being murdered by a racist asshole just because they aren't certain skin tone. All we want is for People of Color to be able to have the same quality of life that white folks do, which means leveling UP the playing field.
But that's not the impression that many people get, and that's part of the problem.
MrScorpio
(73,630 posts)Kickage!
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Don't believe me? You might want to look at Tumblr sometime.....full of examples. And not all the snotty kids are white, either(many of them are, though, but not quite all); it seems to transcend ethnic boundaries to an extent if anything.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)use it without issue. People on Tumbler? LOL. Like the original poster who said it's mainly whites using the word, I'm thinking this has more to do with where YOU are finding your sample than it does with real life. All this means is neither of you have had real life conversations with African Amercians about the issue. Yet you both spout off as if you know better. That should give you pause.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)feminist academics of the last 40 years. Nope- it's not for you to say Joe. Thinking you should control the conversation is a sign you just do not get it. I am embarrassed for you.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)As much as I hate to say that, it unfortunately *is* the case. Neither Jeff or I have been actively trying to force our views on you.....but it has been occurring the other way around.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)You are actually trying to tell people what words are unacceptable to use. That is controlling.
Why it pisses you off to accept what is the basic facts of life, and to have a cogent discussion about it using the best descriptive words possible is a whole other can of worms.
I will not speculate why you think your discomfort should be issue #1 for anyone else but you. I'll just say it's hilarious! And not happening.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)You might want to find the nearest mirror.
You are actually trying to tell people what words are unacceptable to use. That is controlling.
I'm only offering advice. An opinion(albeit one based on fact-based observation) You, however, are trying to *command* people that we SHOULD use "White Privilege". Isn't that hypocritical? Or are you so blind as to not be able to comprehend that?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)But I've been all over the place in all sorts of venues, gauging reactions from the general public. And unfortunately, from what I've seen, a lot of people have had issues with the term, including some progressives even, even if a few people may have embraced the term.
Simply put, all I'm saying is that you might want to leave your bubble once in a while and take off the rose-colored glasses. Was a bit difficult for me, but I managed.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Did you just out yourself?
I have never seen anyone except the privileged in denial or push back, even here at DU.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I don't claim to be omnipotent but I've done enough balanced observation and kept an open enough mind to know what I know now: "White Privilege" doesn't work as an informational tool for the general public and never has.
We need to think of something better, and it isn't just white people saying this, either. People from all sorts of backgrounds are realizing this.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And maybe that's something you and your mostly conservative (but a few liberal) friends need to get used to.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And maybe that's something you and your mostly conservative (but a few liberal) friends
Heh, LOL. Honestly, though, if you knew anything about me, you'd know I can't stand most conservatives(especially not anyone who's a Teabagger or Fundie). I'd say that perhaps about 80%(at least 75%!) of my friends are liberal or centrists who lean liberal, with most of the rest being apolitical.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)as well as "reverse racism", HA.
I am SHOCKED.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Not something one sees every day.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I just trotted it out to swat it like a pinata, I can't help it if you actually took the bait!
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)not my fault, LOL. but quite funny.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)BainsBane
(53,012 posts)in Salvador da Bahia, Brazil. About 90 percent of the population is what Americans would call black. There was a hotel down by the beach with a nice pool. I could walk down there, slip in and use the pool, and no one ever questioned me because I was white and foreign. Of course it manifests itself in all kinds of ways in the US as well.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)And why is the distinction a vitally important prerequisite to having a conversation about corrective action?
If someone wants, and is ready to have a conversation about the corrective actions justified for self-mediated, internalized and institutional bias, stereotype and bigotry in the realm of race, why can't it begin unless accompanied the magic words?
More importantly, why can't the conversation start *even after* the magic words have been spoken?
It's because fixing the problem isn't the goal. Blame, and extrapolating that blame into other realms is the goal.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)We are being asked to examine the fabric of our lives. We are being asked to understand that those things which we take for granted aren't there for everyone.
I never had to consider walking an extra 10 blocks to shop because 'people look at us at that store'. That is my granddaughter's reality. I didn't ever consider my privilege until I saw someone I love very much live without it.
It's not my fault. It's my granddaughter's reality.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)This is a question that I have never received a satisfactory answer to.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)Language so often gets in the way of communication. I understand why the word can be off-putting. But I can't think of a better way to communicate this. I had the luxury of being only peripherally aware of this thing that we're talking about -- allow me to call it privilege for now -- for the greater part of my life. It is the *absence* of this quality in my granddaughter's life that has so poignantly underlined, for me, the pernicious, never-ending, forever-grinding, soul-crushing nature of it. And no part of it has anything to do with who she is or what she does. It is about the skin she's in. I share lumberjack jeff's desire to confront this head on and to achieve something better. Today, though, the best that I hope for is an understanding that it is.
stevil
(1,537 posts)Great post!
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)As much as I want to believe that a better world is not only possible but on its way, there's all kinds of evidence to the contrary...
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)i.e. to quibble over semantics is to miss the point. If you, and others, agree totally other than the use of a single word, then why is that single word so important?
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)as I think they operate in completely different spheres.
Plenty of people claim to not be racist as they don't act in malice towards people of color. Yet many of these same people can't ever begin a story involving a person of color without describing the difference between them ("So I was talking to this black guy" "I'm just like that black football player who came out" . It goes beyond race too ("So my Jewish neighbor.." .
That is privilege. When they speak of white people just like themselves there are never any qualifiers. "So I was talking to this guy" "I'm just like that football player who came out" "So my neighbor.."
That is just one aspect of broad range of privilege. I'm guilty of it and I try to be aware of it and not do it.
And I'm ignoring your effort to make this a blame issue.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And so controlling.
You don't get to write the script for once in your fucking life. And you appear really angry about that.
You should maybe meditate on that, it would do you some good to realize exactly how unimportant your concern is in the scheme of things. Seriously.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I'm sorry, but how exactly is Jeff trying to "control" the conversation?
In fact, he made a very good point: why exactly do we need "white privilege" to discuss the very real problems with racism and social stratification? Because it hasn't helped us educate the public, that's for sure.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Projection much?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)"magic words" is very contemptuous. Too bad you still can't wrap your head around their meaning.
All the more reason why no one would want to consult with you about it! You are being openly hostile and having nothing more than an emotional reaction. Useless.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)but when he objects to a term being used, OH THAT'S DIFFERENT!
This is hilarious!
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)I do realize that the original intent of the term was meant to provoke some thought, but unfortunately, it has, in this day and age, been *badly* abused by a few people wishing to control(and yes, that's exactly what it is, control and nothing less) the narrative as it were, for whatever reason, including those who claim to speak for an entire ethnic group.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)But I don't think it's the only one, and I sure as hell don't think that universal conceptual agreement should be a prerequisite to discussions of "Okay, so... what do we do about it"?
Increasingly, it's a jawbone being used to avoid practical discussions while perseverating about blame and collective guilt.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)(For a white person).
Being aware of your privilege is acknowledging the benefits you receive from other's racism.
(For a white person)
That's quite a different thing. And why so many white folks react so strongly against privilege.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)But why use the term "privilege"? How does it add to most people's understanding? I can understand that it may "click" for people who have adopted a certain worldview, and that's fine. My personal problem is, is that some of them keep telling the rest of us that adopting their language is mandatory, and that if we don't, we cannot possibly fully understand the realities before us. And more importantly, it has not, unfortunately, worked all too well as a public teaching tool, outside of perhaps a very few cases. And I do mean *few*.
And even from a practical standpoint, there's going to be some problems; not every white person actually benefits from racism(even though it can be argued that the possibility that such may happen is always there, which may be true). I haven't, not even indirectly, and neither have many others around here. And there are certainly individuals like Clarence Thomas and Allen West who have reaped personal gain from assisting the perpetuation of the old order, as it were.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Acknowledging the harm done to others requires a frame of reference. The harm done to others is relative to ones own experience.
Being aware that life is in some ways easier for you than the person disadvantaged because of his or her skin color is the same; It's an A/B comparison in which you fundamentally and inherently understand "A" but not "B"
Don't think so? How much energy to you expend evaluating the privilege/disadvantage that native americans experience relative to hispanic people? Not much I'd wager because you don't live in one of those poles. You don't have a frame of reference. Acknowledging privilege and understanding bias are equally alien because they're both the same concept.
My new truck is nice compared to the neighbor's dented Dodge. (acknowledging privilege)
My neighbors truck is pretty mundane compared to my new one. (acknowledging disadvantage)
jeff47
(26,549 posts)If they're the same thing, you wouldn't react so strongly against discussions about privilege.
Instead, you are in every single one, fighting against any discussion of privilege.
No, it isn't. "They have it harder" generally causes someone to react differently than "I have it easier". That's why there's a large number of DUers who try to shut down any talk of privilege, and instead talk about harm.
"Racist assholes make my life better" isn't a happy thought for most people.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)I replied but I really wanted to say something that may have gotten hidden.
myrna minx
(22,772 posts)Texasgal
(17,037 posts)such an issue with this topic. It's maddening and disappointing.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)No.
In fact, discussing the issue of privilege is pretty much accusing some members of burning crosses on black families' lawns.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)them unhappy, and then they report back to us. I learned this up thread. Seriously.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And yeah, that includes plenty of liberals and centrists, too.(most conservatives wouldn't even want to consider listening in the first place, so that's moot, anyway)
Whether we may like it or not, DU isn't totally representative of Democrats as a whole, or even all activist Democrats. We are just another slice of the pie. The truth is, for every liberal who believes in white privilege theory, I'd say there's roughly about a hundred(give or take some, maybe) who don't.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Sounds like you outed your darned self, bringing *mostly not progressive* opinions here, LOL.
NO THANK YOU JOE.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)It's become clear that you have a bit of problem with dissenting opinions on this subject. Why? I dunno.....you tell me.
And honestly, the fact that you seem to be unwilling to accept that a progressive could possibly disagree with the use of the term "white privilege" while simultaneously accepting the realities of social stratification only adds to that.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)that BS are not people I take lessons from.
You do not disagree with the usage of the term, you disagree privilege even exists. You say as much elsewhere.
And that opinion is out of mainstream progressive thought, not worth wasting anymore time with now that we know where it is coming from.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Hell, I only found out about the white privilege theory when I was on the outer fringes of progressive-dom about ~5 years ago. I don't recall hearing a peep out of DU in that regard until last year and I'd been active since June of 2011.
So I dunno what else to tell you, Betty.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)isn't a substitute for a well rounded education.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)possibly because the majority of your acquaintances are not liberal, I'd say you need to get out more, expand your horizons.
well gosh, most of us were pretty aware and discussing the concept by HS. It's not at all controversial in liberal circles. Never was. Sorry to disappoint you.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Perhaps I can give you the benefit of the doubt here. But that is definitely what it sounded like.
well gosh, most of us were pretty aware and discussing the concept by HS. It's not at all controversial in liberal circles. Never was. Sorry to disappoint you.
If that's really true, it honestly sounds like that you're not that much older than I am, or you went to a super-liberal school, or both. For full disclosure, I did attend school in the suburban D/FW area, so maybe that might help explain it a little, but you'd think that at least some members of the general public would have a better understanding if "white privilege" actually was taught or even discussed in many high schools.....but this doesn't seem to have been the case, apart from perhaps a few rare exceptions.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)school were both conservative leaning, I was not ever. I was a commie atheist in fourth grade, and I haven't grown up all that much since. It's been part of my vernacular for so long, I can't even guess when I first heard about it. It;s a thing- and there are small degrees of it and big ones- with life changing consequences.
Someone here tonight said- the only advantage he gets is the millisecond extra back, that it takes a black person to be "stopped" by a cop. It's a go to jail card, not a fucking millisecond. Unfucking believable to see that here.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Classic self-centeredness, I would say.
*Edit: I wasn't trying to make a false equivalency. I was speculating on one possible reason for the defensiveness here.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)That's a pretty uncomfortable situation. You're not racist, but you receive perks from people who are. You'd prefer that this did not happen, but since you aren't applying those perks you can't stop it.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)It's more pronounced amongst the GOP base, but there's plenty of "stop rubbing that in my face, I didn't do anything to you" sentiment on the left too
Zenlitened
(9,488 posts)This.
And, I'd add, it's not enough to say, "But I oppose ALL oppression," to insist that the discussions be about ALL oppressions at once.
Insisting that we ought to act as if we live in a color-blind world, when the world obviously isn't color-blind? Yeah, that's white privilege right there, folks.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)who is insisting we live in a color-blind world?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And it's bullshit. When we say we are fine with continuing to use the best words, the ones currently used- instead of discarding them so they will be more "comfortable" it's us controlling the discussion? No, it;s people who do not like the message diluting it- and doin git quite on purpose. Transparent.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)For goodness sakes, bettyellen, are you actually truly oblivious to what's going on here?
It's not controlling to point out that "White privilege" hasn't really worked out as a teaching tool. If you want to keep using it, for whatever reason, heck, that's fine. But just don't expect that people won't have legitimate reasons to disagree with this.....they do.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)If your goal is to remove provocative words, will you also dilute the message? Also, I suggest "theory" might not be a good word to use in the discussion.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Just by pointing out the statistics behind it all.....the fact that black men are incarcerated falsely at several times the rate of white folks, the fact that Women of Color are paid even less than their white counterparts, amongst other things.....we can say, "Hey, there *is* an issue with disadvantage here. Wouldn't you think it was unfair if you had to worry about being judged as a criminal or being paid less money on the dollar just because of your skin tone?".
I do apologize if this explanation may not be satisfactory, however; it tends to be tough for me to really flesh stuff out unless I really practice, you know? Hopefully it may help you understand my position a little better, though.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)El_Johns
(1,805 posts)label won't do the job.
But if your motive is just to alienate them and then pat yourself on the back for being among the enlightened in comparison to the "racist" cretins, good show.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)it's a necessary word -exactly because it describes a very complex (and varied) set of conditions.
Do you expect everyone use three or four paragraphs every time they are discussing it? If you don;t understand terminology, look it the hell up.
He doesn't like the word because he denies it exists and is hoping to trick people into using words he prefers. It;s bullshit, and....He's quite a few decades too late for that.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)an introduction to the topic, it starts things on the wrong foot.
I don't know the motives of the person you're talking about, and neither do you.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)you use it. It was coined to describe the idea many years ago. There is no need to reword it, especially not at the "suggestion" of someone who also doubts it's very existence. On manys a thread. It's like asking an atheist what you should call god!
It's a great term used by social scientists for years, and commonly known.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)But you'd still need the term to refer to it again in a sentence afterward. (without substituting his laundry list of injustices) That's how it works sometimes. Not everyone has such a hard time with it.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)its proponents claim it to be.
In fact, it seems it was designed to foster division rather than solidarity.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)It's a facet that has significance to many of us, and should not be swept away at the request of some who want to pretend it doesn't exist. That's not right. As I said, it's not exactly being used in a PSA to recruit people.
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)(where have we heard that before, LOL!!)
El_Johns
(1,805 posts)conversations about race, and misunderstanding.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)And less distorted and less divisive, with an established history of widely understood and accepted usage.
What it does not do, that "privilege" does, is allow some to pick on people who are not part of the problem.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)not everyone who acknowledges it exists takes it too personally to handle the discussion. if it bothers you, move on.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)My pointing that out is part of the discussion. You don't have a way to answer that, so you resort to the usual change-the-subject "hail mary" snark.
The one bothered by it and taking it personally, is you.
As to "move on", that is up to me, not you. Clearly you're annoyed that you are not able to dictate what can, and can't be said here, but... too bad, so sad, you don't have that right.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Are doing the opposite of trying to control others conversation. Oh my!
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)I mean that truly. But you're still not understanding. I wish I could remove the umbrage caused by the words so that you could have an insight into what we mean when we use the words. Wishes and horses, I guess.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Solly Mack
(90,758 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)otherwise Michelle Obama and Oprah Winfrey and Serena Williams are all part of an "oppressed group".
Okay, take away the fame, how are the 3 million plus black households with over $100,000 in net worth, part of an "oppressed group"?
Go even further than that, how is my black co-worker part of an "oppressed group"? He's got almost the same job I do. In fact, he has the job that I wanted. How is he any more oppressed than I am?
And, once again, to claim that "privilege is the opposite of oppression" is to say that "everybody should be oppressed".
Life, I would say, is often like a long walk through a minefield. Some people for whatever reason, have more mines to dodge than others. But having 20% fewer mines to dodge really isn't a privilege when one still has a long, tiring, and dangerous walk to go on. My walk, is NOT a cakewalk. In fact, it is a harder walk than Michelle Obama's. She, after all, is privileged to fly right over that minefield while most of the rest of us have to walk.
That, being able to fly above, would be a privilege.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)ah, but what about ALL of the millions and millions of white people who are NOT similarly placed. Who are, in fact, placed well BELOW those three? So what if Oprah is more oppressed than Bill Gates? She is still far LESS oppressed than some white guy who goes down into a coal mine every frigging day, or who slings tar on a hot roof, or who works in a meat packing plant, or a foundry.
But also, I invite you to explain, if you can, how my similarly placed co-worker is "oppressed". He does NOT complain every day about being followed around in stores. He does NOT get a ticket more than ONCE in the eight years I have known him for DWB. So where is his oppression?
He drives a nicer car than I do. He owns a motorcycle. He eats out a lot while I brown-bag, he's eating McDonalds, Subway, buying from the vending machine, etc. Seems to be enjoying the hell out of life.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)even if the rest of the walk is dangerous.
Michelle Obama did her walk growing up on a path from very modest circumstances that took her to Princeton. She is still part of an oppressed group, judging by some of the unfounded critical remarks about her made by conservatives that are based on racist stereotypes of black people.
Oprah came from a terrible background, and was raped as a child.
Serena is straight out of Compton, also from very modest circumstances.
Black people are judged differently than whites. That is white privilege.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)if, despite having fewer mines to dodge, you step on one and get blown up.
Regardless of where Oprah or Michelle or Serena came from, they've been walking now for decades on a pretty smooth path.
Actually, they are being driven around by limos.
While others, who are walking, and stepping on mines, are being told that they are the privileged ones.
Oprah was raped. Well I know some white guys and white girls who did not live to see their 21st birthday. Isn't surviving to become a billionaire a little bit better than dying?
kwassa
(23,340 posts)and a black guy has to cross a field with 100 mines, the white guy has a privilege. A serious privilege.
What we are discussing are different privileges. Oprah is far more privileged, now, because of her vast wealth. She still doesn't get white privilege, as revealed in the shopping incident in Switzerland, but her wealth and celebrity, both extremely rare for black people, insulate her from most of that.
Blacks have to put up with a level of suspicion and denigration that whites don't, by virtue of being black in America.
JustAnotherGen
(31,780 posts)I agree with her - and you.
It's disappointing to see "liberals" deny the existence of white privilege
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Redford
(373 posts)As I dare to "prairie dog" up at the Fortune 50 cube farm, I am seeing plenty of white, black, asian, hispanic, men, women, fat, thin, old and young people just as privileged as me to have a job. Oh, and we all make the same amount of money because it is there for everyone to see. Well, except for the bi-linguals. They make a little more.
We have all arrived to the same station in life, more or less. I have a PoC for a boss and I am pretty sure he is gay, too. Not feeling oppressed or privileged - just happy to have a job.