I'm just aksing but not argue...how the hell do we tell Russia to not intervene in Ukraine??

[kelliekat44]

It used to belong to the USSR, half the people are Russian and Russia has a military base there. How would we react under the same circumstances? I just don't understand some things about our minding every nation's issues with their own people and those that have closer ties than we do? Isn't this a coup or civil war>

[TwilightGardener]

1. Because it's a sovereign country that is vulnerable and has

a brand-new transitional government and a military that may not even have commanders or be prepared to fight off an invasion? It's not supposed to be ripe for the pickin' in its time of upheaval. That said, if any part of Ukraine wants to split off and join Russia, that's their business. But the EU's position (and ours) is, leave it alone until it sorts itself out. I don't think that's wrong.

[TwilightGardener]

7. He was humiliated, and he's going to try to gain something to get his

pride and prestige back. Unfortunately, he's losing goodwill by obviously taking advantage of a country that is in turmoil and trying to sort itself out--but it's clear he's mad at the West and wants to be able to show his people he can take the upper hand in some way.

[RKP5637]

14. Yep, agree again! n/t

[MannyGoldstein]

2. Because Russia is a police state.

The successor of the KGB spys on everyone, recording phone calls, webcam streams, meta data... absolutely everything.

I can't imagine a country like that.

[L0oniX]

10. So ...uhm ...so they are just like us.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

15. And sanctions beatings of gays

[kelliekat44]

34. Remember it wasn't too long ago we sanctioned that too and still have a contingent among us who

would still sanction it if they could speak out and not suffer. Arizona is not too far from it. All I am saying is that we have no business supporting coups of elected governments around the world. Let the people sort it out for themselves. We have a silent coup trying to take place in this country under the Tea Party pretending to be just a segment of the opposition party. Does that mean another country should come in here and support the Tea Party, threaten the rest of us not to take action if they decide to take up arms?

[swilton]

28. You're right

What state could be trusted who had as its head of state a former head of its central intelligence agency.....


Oh Wait! That was George Bush -

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. For the same reason they just docked a spy ship in Havana

it is called the grand chess board for a reason.

[TwilightGardener]

24. Russia is still also pretty mad about missile defense.

They threatened a few weeks ago to pull out of the new START deal over one of our systems on a US navy ship in the Mediterranean, I think. Russia is dangerously overreactive for the time being.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. I am way way too cynical anymore

grand chess game. They are all playing a dangerous game for their own national interests.

Nations have interests, once people understand that... and every once in a while those interests lead to wars.

[okaawhatever]

4. First, in 1994 when Ukraine agreed to give up their nukes we signed an agreement with Ukraine,

Russia and the UK. In it, all countries agreed to respect their sovereignty and borders. Russia has violated this. They claim that they're protecting their citizens, but it's simply not true. First of all, half of Ukraine isn't Russian. Only 17% of the population is ethnic Russian. More than that speak Russian, but there are many who are bilingual. In Crimea there are 58.2% ethnic Russians, 24% ethnic Ukranians and 12.1% Crimean Tatars. A survey in 2011 found that 72% said their nationality was Ukrainian. The idea that there is an overwhelming majority of Russians who want to secede and align with Russia is incorrect. Much of the disagreements between the various ethnic groups have been encouraged by governments. Putin desperately needs the port at Svestopol. Losing that would cause significant problems for Russia. The president before Yanukovich said they would not be renewing the lease w/Russia when it expired in 2017. Less than three months after Yanukovich took office he resigned the lease for 25 years. It was a very divisive action. The parliament broke out in a physical altercation. Russia has been very busy ginning up Russian nationalism trying to make sure Putin's interests were served.

It doesn't matter that it used to be Soviet Russia's property. It was legally given to Ukraine in 1954. If you want to look at history, Stalin drove the ethnic Crimean Tatars from the land where most died in exile.

There's a lot to it, but don't buy into the propaganda that it's Russia's property and they're entitled to it. If the Crimean people want to vote for secession in a year, let them do so. Considering only 58% are ethnic Russians it's not hard to imagine that 10% of them would want to remain with Ukraine, so even with 57% ethnic Russian's a vote to secede isn't a sure thing.

[RKP5637]

6. IMO this should be an OP for greater visibility. You cut through all of the BS flying around! n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Agreed

I am just way too cynical anymore.

[okaawhatever]

11. I have read close to a hundred articles from several countries on this, and several academic papers.

I will try to type up the basics for an op. Thanks for the motivation to do so.

[MindMover]

16. and thank you for your efforts ...

[adirondacker]

23. +1000. Thanks for that information. nt

[L0oniX]

9. Say please? ...or offer them Skittles.

[grasswire]

12. She's going to ass kick you! nt

[woo me with science]

32. Now we KNOW you are one of those appeasing liberals who can't be trusted with national security.

Offering up our fiercest weapon...

[customerserviceguy]

13. We stay out of it

And we hope that an equitable split is made of Ukraine. If it was good for Czechoslovakia, then how bad could it be in this situation? The eastern part aligns with Russia, the western part joins NATO, and nobody else has to get killed over it.

[Jenoch]

18. The difference is that Czechoslovakia

was made up of Czechs and Slovaks. Ukraine was ethnically mostly Ukrainians before the Russians were moved in. The Russians attempted to do the same to all of the Soviet Republics.

[customerserviceguy]

21. Yes

and the United States was mostly ethnic Native Americans before those nasty Europeans moved in. I'm just trying to deal with the facts that are already on the ground, and hope that the folks involved figure out a peaceful solution. If splitting up a piece of land is part of that bloodless solution, what's the harm in that?

[Jenoch]

33. Your comparison of the the U.S. and Ukraine

is ridiculous at best and seems disingenuous. There is a lot of harm in breaking up a country for political reasons. It's easy for you to suggest simething like that. If you believe it's just "...splitting up a piece of land..." then I will not waste my time with any further responses.

[customerserviceguy]

35. Would Iraq be in as much trouble as it is

if it had been split up into Sunni, Shia, and Kurdish parts? That was Joe Biden's idea some years ago, to avoid further bloodshed.

No, I was not saying that the US and Ukraine were the same thing, I was only pointing out that sometimes the ethnic mix of populations changes over time in various areas, and those migrations have political consequences. If it was OK to split up the Soviet Union (and other empires) into its ethnic parts, I don't see why further splitting up in the name of peace is necessarily a bad thing.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. We could intervene militarily. It worked ever so well in Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it. Alexis de Tocqueville

[randome]

19. If Putin had a nickel of ethics, he would not be allowing Ukraine to fall apart on his doorstep.

If he's not going to do anything to help, someone else should, no?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]

[1awake]

20. Invading countries, invasions of privacy

Secret courts and soldiers in over 100 countries around the world. Trampling peoples rights and terrible ability to stay out of other peoples business.... and Russia pretty much sucks to.

[JI7]

22. so did N and S Korea

[Tommy_Carcetti]

25. Because Ukrainians are not Russians.

And Ukrainians have long resented Russia's constant meddling in its affairs.

I don't think you really comprehend the situation.

[quinnox]

26. It seems rather hypocritical for us to be telling countries not to invade or intervene militarily

in light of recent history, such as Iraq and Afghanistan. Yep, just a weeeeeeee bit hypocritical.

[Warpy]

29. It's just diplomatic posturing. We know that. They know that.

It doesn't mean we're going to pick a world war over a country that might or might not be turning fascist, at least temporarily.

[pipoman]

30. Putin will always be involved in Ukraine

[doc03]

31. John McCain would nuke em! n/t

[Adrahil]

36. You know that about 10 years ago, they signed a treaty....

... Promising not to do this exact sort of thing in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nukes, right?

I'd say a direct treaty violation is at least worth a remark of disapproval, don't you?