Right wing is throwing Zimmerman under the bus to protect "Stand Your Ground".

[RandySF]

Don't be surprised to fooled by the "outrage" being expressed by Hannity and his right wing cohorts over the death of Treyvon Martin. Had Zimmerman not been busted by the 911 tape and Treyvon's cell phone records, they would say nothing or smear a 17 year-old kid. They are throwing him under the bus so they can protect "Stand Your Ground" laws. It was obvious when Marco Rubio and other Republican argued (correctly, I should say) that the shooter might not even be able to use it as a defense. Regardless, they don't care about the kid. They care about protecting their guns.

[sendero]

1. That's because..

.. "stand your ground" doesn't REMOTELY apply to this situation, and only the racist cops thought it did.

[baldguy]

63. Zimmerman was the first to claim self-defense. He thought it appied.

And the City Manager thought it applied too. The RW extremists who support this travesty of a law only decided that it didn't apply after they saw the hue & cry of the rational public when this case came to light.

The fact is, the police should be investigating EVERY shooting as if it's a crime. Evidence should determine whether or not it's a case of self-defense or not. Cases of legitimate self-defense don't get prosecuted, or they go to trial and a jury should decide. Period.

The RW NRA & GOP-backed so-called "Stand You Ground" laws are DESIGNED to prevent just such investigations & court proceedings. It was made for cases like this.

So you can stop spreading the RW meme that this case has nothing to do the "Stand You Ground" license to murder.

[apocalypsehow]

2. It isn't just the "Right wing": Hell, we got a whole forum full of pro-Stand-Your-Grounders right

here at DU with their very own forum who are coddled and protected by TPTB, and they routinely spew Right wing memes and talking points in defense of their Phallic Replacement Devices, aka handguns.

[hack89]

5. Where do you draw the line?

does any support of the RBKA make one a conservative or are there pro-gun positions that a progressive can hold?

[CreekDog]

57. they can hold a ton of other progressive positions

but around here, it's somewhat rare that they do.

[hack89]

64. What is the apropriate progressive attitude towards guns?

That was my question.

[jtuck004]

67. Safety first. n/t

[hack89]

69. Gun safety classes in schools? User training? Sounds reasonable. nt

[TheOther95Percent]

11. This I have learned by daring to suggest that I won't be spending $$$ in states w/ Shoot First laws

A fellow DUer suggested I spend the rest of my life hiding under my covers. Some people love their gun laws more than the people that get killed by the same idiotic gun laws.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. About half the states have no duty to retreat, more have some form of Castle Doctrine

[TheOther95Percent]

43. So I am learning and adjusting our vacation plans accordingly.

[jpak]

75. The ones that really scared are the ones who carry

They cannot handle their insecurity

be afraid

yup

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. And we also have a coterie of those who support the classist and racist

anti gun laws and groups. Their arsenal includes drive by posting, accusations of being NRA or GOP puppets, and their usual collection of gender oriented slurs.

[flvegan]

3. Any responsible gun owner should see event this as wrong, as presented.

Regardless of who they vote for. That might be the case here, I haven't paid much attention to how the right wing is viewing this.

[apocalypsehow]

4. As you are a member of said "right wing" I wonder if you've been paying attention to your own posts?

Or do you just cut & paste your Republican talking points about guns straight from the NRA's website?

[flvegan]

6. I'm a member of the right wing?

I want to be clear that you're making an accusation, as I see no sarcasm smiley.

[flvegan]

8. I'm gonna need a third choice.

I wouldn't know if you had a speech impediment (this is a message board...typing, not speaking), and I obviously don't since I've no problem responding here.

What else you got?

[flvegan]

12. LOL!

Here's the thing, chilly...I've never been to the NRA's website, nor am I member, nor will I ever be. Imagine me, a vegan, hanging with the hunting homies. Am I pro gun? Not really. I have guns. Careful about that broad brush you're irresponsibly waving about. Those paint fumes will get to you.

[Dr. Strange]

14. Too late 5gan! Your gig is up!

Your freepery is exposed, idiot6!

Ah, MarchGD Madness.

[CreekDog]

18. Part of the Ring Ding!

knew it all along!

[apocalypsehow]

17. It sure is funny alright. Ask Treyvon Martin's parents what they think about the GOP talking points

you and your "pro-Gun Democrat" chums post day in and day out regarding guns in the Gungeon. I'm sure they'd be amused.

[Earth_First]

19. You need to take a deep breath, sir/m'am...

Walk away for a moment.

[flvegan]

26. Well, you see

I'm not laughing at young Mstr. Martin, nor his parents. I'm hoping that justice is served. And this "Gungeon" seems to be a place I should check out more often. You know, so I can catch up with my republican meme-spewing NRA talking-point drones. Yeah, for that. Got a link? I don't think I've been there often, so I'm unsure.

[iverglas]

66. well, I did suggest you get to know the place better

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=481471&mesg_id=481584


(For the curious, my deleted post just above that was explaining that the tombstoned "Uncle Omar" had made a bit of a show of calling for all guns to be banned because they made people do awful things, but I'd disposed of him after a couple of posts for the not too bright gun militant troll he actually was.)

[2ndAmForComputers]

38. Wow, he FINALLY got one hidden!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

71. He must have triggered a flurry of alerts

Others have been PPR'ed for less

[Earth_First]

13. I'm a firearm owning Democrat...

I responsibly own several

Problem with that?

[Chan790]

22. Me too.

Just another gun-owning environmentally-conscious v*gan leftie.

There are more of us on DU than some people realize.

[flvegan]

28. Obviously just another republican nutjob, this one.

Yep. LOL!

[guitar man]

49. Damn

I own guns, have a pit bull and I eat meat. I must be the fucking anti-christ then!

[flvegan]

50. I'd respond to this, but

it would condemn me to damnation. Pitbull? Really? Guns...plural? I'll bet that amongst that "meat" is bacon. Yeah, hellfire.

LOL!!

[guitar man]

52. But of course

Everythings better with bacon

[flvegan]

53. Duh!

I'm a vegan, I'm not stupid.

[cherokeeprogressive]

24. Firearm owning Dem here too.

And not ONE of my guns has ever even been POINTED at a human being, much less responsible for the slaughter of one.

[flvegan]

30. *high five*

[cherokeeprogressive]

34. This is one of the strangest sub-threads I've ever read. ^5 back atcha. n/t

[iverglas]

68. why do you ask?

Who suggested they had a problem with anyone owning firearms?

I believe the problem stated was with

"pro-Gun Democrats" who routinely pollute this forum with right wing memes and Republican talking points about guns taken straight from the NRA and it's retinue of professional loonies.

(I quote something that is absolute fact, and is not an attack on anyone, by that poster or by me.)

If you aren't one of them, as I assume you aren't, what problem do you have with it?

Perhaps you aren't aware that "pro-gun" is itself a meme used to wedge voters away from the Democratic Party. You know, kinda like "pro-life". It means the other side has to be "anti-gun" / "anti-life".

I've never known how one could be "pro" an inanimate object, myself. Or why, as I just said somewhere else,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=459738
anyone would say they "support gun ownership" any more than I would say I "support abortion".

[BeachBaby]

23. Holy shit!

Troll much? You have absolutely no fucking idea to whom you're speaking.

[ZombieHorde]

31. I alerted on that post. Here are the results....

YOUR COMMENTS:

Accusing flvegan of being right wing is too dumb to allow.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Mar 22, 2012, 10:01 PM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: Apocalypsehow has lost his or her mind. I know the Martin shooting has caused a lot of DUers to get emotionally extreme but this response to flvegans post is bizarre. Flyvegan is correct -- everyone (right or left) should be deeply concerned about the martin shooting given the facts as they have been presented. Appealing to the goodness and rationality of humanity is not a right wing or NRA talking point. If apocalypsehow is saying that flvegan's comment is not left enough for DU, then no one's post is. Get a fucking grip.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: flvegan - right wing? LOL!!! he may be a total asshole but he ain't no repuke
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Dumbness is not a reason to alert on a post. Being dumb isn't against the rules here.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: Personal attack. Ugly and surreal.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: "Dumbness" sometimes needs to be seen. This post isn't vulgar or over the top, and subsequent posts make it clear that flvegan is very able to handle this poster.

[flvegan]

37. flvegan - right wing? LOL!!! he may be a total asshole but he ain't no repuke

I might make that my new signature line! LOL!

[ZombieHorde]

39. I thought you might like the jury results. It was a funny one.

Just make sure to give credit to Juror #3.

[flvegan]

42. Juror #3 is my new fave DUer.

Absolutely will give credit if I do it (might break a rule or two, got to check that out first). Thanks for that. Biggest laugh I've had all week.

[Kali]

44. yeah well, you might want to change your mind on that

[flvegan]

48. Absolutely not.

I respect opinion. I respect it more when a positive is viewed in light of a negative predisposition. I respect that a great deal. We'd all do well to be able to do the same in every aspect of what we do.

If I change my sig, it'll be a nudge, wink sort of thing. Won't name anyone who might have come forward, know what I mean.

[Kali]

51. no prob

I think we both value honesty.

[flvegan]

54. Agreed.

Check the sig. Approve?

[Jamastiene]

25. OMFG

You have GOT to be joking. You cannot be serious. You think flvegan is right wing? You obviously do not know him if you think that. This has to be the wildest thing I've read today.

[BeachBaby]

35. Oh, c'mon now, chickie.

You and I both know that our favorite vegan Floridian is a total RWer - what with his multiple dog rescues, undying support of Kucinich, and advocacy of animal rights. TOTAL Republican troll, that flvegan.

This is fun. Who's bartending tonight?

[X_Digger]

40. Prolly a deeep-undercover moooole, don'cha know ;)

It's counter-anti-counter-propoganda.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

45. Not to mention his strong support for gay rights.

They always use that as a cover for their dastardly deeds.

[Dr. Strange]

36. Well, sure, YOU would think that.

You're another right-wing corporate shill. Your act fools no one!

[X_Digger]

27. Err, lol.. Boy when you swing and miss, you miss BIG. n/t

[BeachBaby]

41. ^^^^THIS^^^^

Thank you.

[CreekDog]

58. yeah you got the wrong guy

you're doing it wrong if you call him a Republican based on one post. i mean, that's not even trying.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

9. And so are the gun loving DU members

They should bury those laws with that child.

[TheOther95Percent]

20. Until the next kid is murdered in the street

The NYT reported in an op-ed piece today that the number of justifiable homicide claims have tripled since the law's adoption.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/22/opinion/shot-to-death-in-florida.html?_r=1&ref=trayvonmartin

Since the enactment of the law, claims of justifiable homicide tripled in Florida, according to state data. “It’s almost insane what we are having to deal with,” Willie Meggs, the state attorney in Tallahassee, declared this week. Self-defense is being invoked in everything from gang shootings to backyard disputes between neighbors, with prosecutors left to disprove the shooters’ claims.

Stand Your Ground laws are abominations that should be repealed. One obvious flaw among many is that slain victims can never tell their side of the story — an undisputed fact in the tragic slaying of Trayvon Martin.

[.99center]

47. But this is what I think Stand Your Ground law's mean!

Why do people think they know more than the state attorney's,law professor's, and police that are dealing with the aftermath of these Stand Your Ground laws? Even if these law's were created with good intentions they're being used to get off criminals and need to be looked at.

[belcffub]

62. trippled from what to what?

Since the enactment of the law, claims of justifiable homicide tripled in Florida, according to state data. “It’s almost insane what we are having to deal with,” Willie Meggs, the state attorney in Tallahassee, declared this week. Self-defense is being invoked in everything from gang shootings to backyard disputes between neighbors, with prosecutors left to disprove the shooters’ claims.

this article is just fluff with no substance

tripled from what to what... 1 to 3 or 1000 to 3000... what has the murder rate done during this same time... how many & what percent of those claiming self-defense stand up and how many get charged? Either the reporter knew these number and decided not to used them or they are a incompetent reporter and should stick to obituaries...

[spin]

21. I live in Florida, have a concealed weapons permit and carry ...

I have never believed that the Stand Your Ground law would enable me to chase and confront another individual, push him and when he fights back to shoot him. It simply doesn't apply in this situation. That's why it is not named the Pursue and Kill law.

The Stand Your Ground law merely removes my duty to attempt to retreat when attacked by an individual who intends and is capable of severely injuring or killing me.

If an individual threatens to kill me, that doesn't give me the right to shoot him until there is absolutely no reasonable doubt that he is in the process of attempting to do so.

It is also against the law in Florida for me to draw my weapon in order to gain leverage in an argument. That could put me in jail for three years even if the gun was unloaded.

With the current information that I have from the news media, I am also outraged that Treyvon Martin ended up dead. Don't for a second believe that I am throwing Zimmerman under the bus to protect the Stand Your Ground law. It simply isn't an issue in this case except for the fact that it appears that the authorities in Sanford are using it as an excuse to not arrest or prosecute Zimmerman.

I will imagine the law will be rewritten to remove any confusion over its true meaning and intent.

[RandySF]

32. Believe it or not, I support C&C

But I know a right wing cover when I see it. These are the same folks who stand up for shooters every time a person of color is killed. They are covering their asses.

[safeinOhio]

79. "never enough information" to decide now when it's a shooter questioned.

Always a yahoo and goody goody when it's what they call a "good shoot" with little or no info on it.

[Loudly]

29. Guns cloud judgment. Zimmerman demonstrated this.

No more scoffing about the "magic powers of inanimate objects."

It's psychology.

Guns embolden and delude.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

56. What impact does the Staff of Magnus have?

[friendly_iconoclast]

72. I liked you better when you were sharesunited. Or was it Don Caballero?

[X_Digger]

73. It was sharesunited. PPR + new account.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=23885

[beevul]

76. And yet it is allowed.

Unbelievable.

Simply unbelievable.


Mods, take care of it please.

[X_Digger]

77. Apparently on the new DU, coming back from a PPR is overlooked. *sigh* n/t

[beevul]

78. Mods: PPR resurection in the post I'm replying to.

This poster has a tendency to make the following claim repeatedly:

"Guns cloud judgment." loudly

"But guns cloud judgment." Sharesunited -tombstoned.

Guns cloud judgment..." Sharesunited -tombstoned.

And compare guns to child porn, repeatedly:

"Refer to the crusade against child pornography."

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=15751

"There is a demand for child porn too, but that is being dealt
with." loudly



"And child pornography should go unchecked because people have young children they can photograph." Sharesunited -tombstoned.

"You may as well come out in favor of child pornography as protected by the first amendment." Sharesunited -tombstoned.


"Public policy against the mere possession of child pornography illustrates what is possible." Sharesunited -tombstoned.

"Over the counter access to morphine and over the internet access to child pornography." Sharesunited -tombstoned.

How did the crusade against child pornography begin? Public policy. Sharesunited -tombstoned.

And there are many pages more than that:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/searchresults.html?q=sharesunited+child+porn&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com&domains=democraticunderground.com&client=pub-7805397860504090&forid=1&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A336699%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A11&hl=en

But thats not all:

"By murdering your stubborn hide." loudly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117223802#post14

"By killing your hide." sharesunited - tombstoned

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=277573&mesg_id=277577

"By killing that wooly hide of yours." sharesunited - tombstoned

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x252047#252251

"Now, let's weigh her hide against the 2A dead." sharesunited - tombstoned

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x267127#267178

"As such, the RKBA endangers all your other rights by killing your insistent and misguided hide." sharesunited - tombstoned

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=281789&mesg_id=282313

"And that means bullets in innocent bodies, including your old hide." sharesunited - tombstoned

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=415908&mesg_id=415919

"So is not having bullets enter your hide." sharesunited - tombstoned

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=400631&mesg_id=400663

"You CAN force me to take a bullet in my hide." sharesunited - tombstoned

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4294235#4295239

"And based solely upon your determination that bullets should GO in their hide?" sharesunited - tombstoned

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=378807&mesg_id=379353

"Until the nation was dragged kicking and screaming into modernity on the subject." loudly

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117223802#post28

Once again, the federal courts will need to bring the People kicking and screaming into modernity. sharesunited - tombstoned

Is DU3 allowing PPR posters (disruptors) to return with impunity these days?


I was under the impression that when someone earned one of these:



That it was intended permanently.

[RZM]

33. Or, perhaps they have looked at the evidence like everyone else has

And see no reason to stick their necks out for George Zimmerman.

Not everything is a conspiracy. Republicans are people just like you and me. You might not like it, but sometimes their take on things isn't all that different from anybody else's.

[baldguy]

65. The regular GOP rank&file are just waking up a bit

to realize just how for their leaders have led them down the garden path. The way "Stand-you ground" laws were advertised doesn't match the way they've been implemented & used. The GOP and their RW front the NRA intended that people like Zimmerman have the law protect their murderous activities, they just didn't tell the public that.

[EC]

46. Yeah, they didn't mention it for days while

Frank Luntz was running his word games test groups, to see how they should play it.

[caseymoz]

55. Actually, I think they are appalled by this.

Last edited Fri Mar 23, 2012, 09:22 AM - Edit history (1)

However, the RW pundits and politicians are not going to own up to a screw up like SYG in an election year. And it's not just the pundits who are denying it this way. I've answered SYG supporters who have C&Ped the statute to prove it doesn't apply here, and I've taken it a part and showed them why Zimmerman is going to walk because of it. They simply don't see how it could have gone this wrong.

They're appalled, but only because they can't deny the facts. You're right they well be smearing Martin now if the facts gave them any wiggle-room to do it, but they are so conclusive.

They're racism comes more from the fact that they demand that much more verification before they'll believe an African American kid could be innocent.

What you have with the gun-righters are people who feel so confident about their social theory and ideology as it pertains to guns that they won't consider the idea that it might undercut their intentions. That is the better ones are that way. The worse ones are paranoid Timothy-McVeigh David-Koresh crazies like Zimmerman (who also have a racist streak), whom everybody but another gun-righter can see have gone around the bend.

The gun-righters are in denial right now. A clearly innocent boy being murdered by a criminal who deliberately kept his behavior within the wording of SYG, this was not supposed to happen with their wonderful gun laws. But you have to be a gun-righter to think it was impossible.

[99th_Monkey]

59. "STAND YOUR GROUND" = catchy bumper sticker, but no cigar as public policy. nt

[EmeraldCityGrl]

60. Worse thing happening now is the deliberate

delay in arresting Zimmerman and collecting whatever physical evidence left
that hasn't been compromised.

Both parents spent their careers in the court system. They know exactly what they are doing.

[theaocp]

74. Actually, I disagree.

They don't want to protect guns, per se. They want to protect the gun manufacturers' profits. Some might say that's the same thing, but I disagree. The NRA is all about the profits. They don't give two shits about the actual weapons.