To those advocating US military intervention in the Ukraine: I guarantee you ...

[11 Bravo]

that there's a recruiting office somewhere in your ZIP code. And if you can't find it, PM me and I will send you the requisite enlistment papers.
(But before you do, if you might allow this tired old fart to offer up a bit of wisdom based on personal experience ... getting in the middle of someone else's fucking civil war ain't all it's cracked up to be.)

[jsr]

1. Stay out of their clusterfuck

[Jackpine Radical]

3. Amen.

[stevenleser]

2. So far, I only see one person doing that. I am not sure that justifies an OP. nt

[DhhD]

5. I think that warmongers - are - preparing for war as we speak/write.

[stevenleser]

6. People think all kinds of things. Outside of Ukraine and Russia, no one is preparing for war on this

[paleotn]

14. Hope you're right...

...but I kinda doubt it. Maybe not physical preparations, but philosophical ones I sure, just like Syria. To borrow from Sun Tzu, you've got to "fight" a war in the "temples" before it's fought on the battlefield.

[Berlin Expat]

23. Czech media

has been recounting various Russian atrocities that occurred here during the 1968 Warsaw Pact Invasion.

The Chairman of the Czech Foreign Affairs Parliamentary Commitee, Karel Schwarzenberg, straight-up said that Putin is pulling the same thing that Hitler did in both Austria and Czechslovakia. He pretty much said, publicly, Putin=Hitler.

The Poles are saying similar things as well.

[Diclotican]

84. Berlin Expat

Berlin Expat

To be fair - both the Czech and the polish do have some bad experience with the russians over the last couple of centuries... Even though it is a long time since 1968 Warsaw pact invasion - it gave the Czech some painfully wounds who is there, right under the surface for everyone who want to dig a meter down.... And they have never been given any apology for the treatment in the hand of the Russians either (who was the wast bulk of the armed forces from the Warsaw pact)..


I'm not sure if Putin is the same at Hitler - but I do understand, from a czech perspective about this case, it would be an experience they would not do twice - as Tczjekkia was treated pretty bad under the german control.... And experienced also a lot of hardship under Soviet control...


Diclotican

[IrishAyes]

74. Even the Irish can't argue with Sun Tzu. No point starting a fight nobody can win.

I'm always in awe of that man's powerful influence reaching across the centuries.

[MineralMan]

8. You posted a similar comment in my OP, too.

It's interesting. Discussions about Ukraine and Russia are part of the current news environment. People are posting all sorts of OPs on the subject. And why would they not?

While you're correct that not many DUers are advocating a military response, a lot more DUers are concerned about that possibility. So, a couple of OPs have been written about whether or not the US would contemplate such a response. Why would such OPs not be justified, Steven?

If you find them unimportant and unjustified, that's fine. But, people will discuss what they wish to discuss on DU.

[stevenleser]

10. Your OP and this one create the incorrect impression there is support for this here on DU.

There is one person here who supports military action out of tens of thousands of members.

That is not what I would consider 'support for this here on DU'. Do you consider it so?

[ConservativeDemocrat]

43. Extremists need strawmen to attack...

...otherwise they're stuck trying to defend their indefensible positions.

There are a lot of tools in the United States' (and the Worlds') toolbox other than thermonuclear war.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[sabrina 1]

56. Who are these extremists you speak of? Names please or links to their posts. They should

be alerted on if they manage to post on this forum.

[Democracyinkind]

66. The echos in the reality-based community are sometimes so strong that outside voices can't seem to

penetrate the bubble.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

87. You might want to google "reality based community" before you...

...embarrass yourself further.

I don't really think you're a fan of Karl Rove. Just sayin...

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Democracyinkind]

88. No, or I'd absolutely dig the stuff you post.

W.T.F - Proud member of whatever term makes me seem less like the minority I represent.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

85. Gee, who are these extremists, Sabrina? I wonder.

Let me give you a hint: extremists can't stand to hear opinions they don't like, so seek to remove all content that they have no answer for. Does that remind you of anyone, Sabrina?

I disagree with extremists. I think they are addicts of sanctimony and hate. They find no subtle problem that can't be reduced to "everything bad in the world is caused by the people I hate (which is more or less everyone who doesn't agree with me 100%) so removing them would fix all problems forever".

Never the less, I will defend to the death their right to voice their absurd opinions - subject to my responses correcting their logic, misrepresentations, creation of straw men, or (quite often) outright lies (especially about Democrats).

You also might re-read the rules of the Democratic Underground, which is pretty clear about allowing people to speak their minds, including the most whack-a-doodle nutcase extremists. Hell, you can say Stalin and Pol Pot were the most heroic politicians of the 20th century, and it's not something which should be alerted under D.U. rules.

In case you need some extra help, here's a little list I posted a while ago.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[IrishAyes]

75. Are we then to discuss only matters you yourself find worthy?

This is an enormously critical situation. Instead of demeaning those who bother to comment on it, why not instead celebrate the good sense and solidarity of purpose (for once) being expressed? I find good sense and solidarity worthy of applause.

[stevenleser]

76. I find it worthy to discuss why people engage in this bandwagon of the righteous against a phantom

foe.

Am I not allowed to discuss that?

[IrishAyes]

81. Yes, you are - but that still doesn't make your attitude any more justifiable. The right to speak,

even when you're essentially telling others to shut up, will not save you the discomfort of contrary responses, with which I totally agree btw.

[malaise]

13. +1,000 n/t

[IrishAyes]

91. Would you care to share a link to your OP mentioned above? I'd like to read it.

[MineralMan]

92. Certainly. Below:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024589823

[IrishAyes]

94. Thank you very much.

[2banon]

35. oh, there's more than one. at least dozen by my count.

it's really bizarre to see on DU.

[stevenleser]

36. I see one. Brentwil. It's not a call out after three OPs doing the same thing now. I think he wants

people to know that is where he stands. Who else? Feel free to PM me.

[2banon]

42. check out the other OP's posted last night/yesterday..

Here are a few OP's containing responses on the issue.

links: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=742961

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024589052

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024590563

there are more, but I've lost track at this point..

[MADem]

71. A bunch of low post count trolls with oddball names were Pootie praising and justifying.

I think y'all need to speak to MIRT--they cleared out a ton of shit. They must have been shovelling all last night.

[IrishAyes]

72. Obvious though it might be to those older and wiser, the point DOES need to be stated for the sake

of our lurkers, trolls, and potentially ignorant passersby. Maybe even the silent DUer at risk from the forces of darkness to be found everywhere IRL. I find the OP timely and appreciate it. Just because there's not a general hue and cry for WAR! here, at least not as yet, doesn't detract from the value of the statement one whit.

[madokie]

4. I'm with you Bravo

[The Wizard]

7. Roger that Bravo

We've heard enough from the chickenhawks. The assholes who thought invading and occupying Vietnam had no chance of going themselves. Funny how that happens. Punks like Bill Kristol would wet their pants if they had to spend a night in the NDP (night defensive position). And Ted Nugent would have been handed a PRC 25 radio, a compass, binoculars and a map, that is if he didn't have an "unfortunate accident" first.

[smokey775]

21. Don't forget Mitt Romney,

while supporting the war, he went on vacation to France.

[2banon]

38. Just posted in another thread.. I'm reading Domino Theory arguments just like Vietnam...

I never thought I'd be reading and hearing this stuff again in my lifetime, after that catastrophic war.

[freshwest]

57. Yeah, some think the USSR is on the way back. Gonna roll over Europe. Nope. If I'm wrong this time,

I'll just myself. I think some want to see that again, to reaffirm their past. Others are truly frightened. So I won't put them down.

[ctsnowman]

70. X 1000

[IrishAyes]

77. I don't know or really care how tall Teddy Boy is, but I'd gladly volunteer him for tunnel rat duty

on the front lines.

[malthaussen]

9. Dude, nobody wants the wisdom of old farts when it comes to war.

Here's a sad thought too: I bet plenty of farts just as old as you are waving the flag and salivating at the thought of sending 19 year olds out to die. The difference? They managed to avoid the war.

-- Mal

[paleotn]

11. Damn right! (nt)

[totodeinhere]

12. Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen anyone at DU advocating US military

intervention in Ukraine.

But criticizing Putin and calling for him to keep his hands off from Ukraine is completely justified.

[Douglas Carpenter]

15. unfortunately there is one - I cannot tell if they are just a nut or if they are a right-wing troll

trying to make DU look bad. I hope they are the only one.

Here is the link to their loony OP:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024586432

I suppose it also disturbs me that even some of those clearly opposing war with Russia talk as if war with Russia is no bigger deal than war with Iraq - as if they don't have a clue

[totodeinhere]

25. Thanks. I had missed that thread.

I agreed with the poster up until he or she said "If Russia uses force in the Ukraine, the US should be ready to respond with force." That part I disagree with. However I would support an aggressive non military reaction.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Well he is like McCain

I set my watch by his "pearls of do do."

[newthinking]

28. Here is another

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014742961#post16

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Yup, my watch is correctly set

[2banon]

39. you missed it...it's going on big time..

against the rules to call out specifics but you can easily find it for yourself.

[pampango]

68. Agreed. The consistent approach is to oppose ALL foreign military intervention in Ukraine.

(Not exactly a new idea for liberals. We almost always support non-violent solutions to international problems.) Criticizing Putin for doing it, but promoting that the US/EU intervene militarily is a biased proposal.

[Junkdrawer]

16. Brevity is the soul of wit.

Wonderful

[beemer27]

17. Thumbs up!

I wish that there had been someone to say that before we got into Vietnam. Those of us who paid the price for the lessons learned there can only hope that our leadership was paying attention. The MIC has fed too well and too often since then. It is time to cut them off. There is nothing for us to gain over there.

[Blanks]

49. I can't help but wonder if the military cuts aren't what's behind our sudden interest in Russia...

It's easy to find places where we should intervene in the world. I suspect that the media (wholly owned by the MIC) wants to take steps to reduce those military cuts.

So, let's see what the Russians are up to.

[Enthusiast]

64. I believe that is the best explanation I've heard yet.

The proposed military cuts are what has generated all this Russian panic/concern.

The truth of the matter is the MIC doesn't have a reason to exist at this level. Not at a fraction of their present size. And they know the American people are asking about the size of the military.

So we can expect some very serious talking heads on the TV acting scared and telling us about the vast Russian nuclear arsenal. "Oh, my, how will we ever stay safe!"

[BlueMTexpat]

18. Exactly. eom

[cantbeserious]

19. Country Joe And The Fish - Vietnam Song

[Madam Mossfern]

27. Boy, did that bring back memories!

Too bad we (the US) didn't learn the lesson very well.

[awoke_in_2003]

60. "be the first on on your block

to have your boy come home in a box"- that line always sends a chill down my spine. It never changes.

[smokey775]

20. Chickenhawks always yell the loudest for war,

not those of us who have seen actual war up close and personal.

[RKP5637]

33. Well said! Too many treat war like another spectator sport with no skin/life lost for them. War is

horrific!

[pasto76]

37. word

[Enthusiast]

65. Every time one of those chickenhawk cocksuckers show up on TV clamoring for war

the other guests or moderators should ask them about their military service.

[IrishAyes]

78. My dad was a career military man, and so were my brothers.

If any of us had said a single word promoting war, I shudder to think of the consequences. Among many other things, General Omar Bradley was right about Nam: wrong time, wrong place, wrong war. People who think like Patton would bring on WWIII in a heartbeat. Then we could all go up in flames - but that would sure show the Ruskies!

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Let me add another piece of wisdom

It matters little what you or me want. If they elites and those in the corridors of power want one, they'll get it.

We only do the dying, they do the enriching.

And if this goes real hot, them chicken hawks will get their chance to find out what you and I and others know. Unless they are lucky enough and draw a
RAMF (Rear Area Mother Fucker) assignment. Just in case the chicken hawks don't have a clue. Yes, the equivalent exists in Spanish.

[Brother Buzz]

31. It's REMF

REMF - Rear Echelon Mother-Fucker

[avaistheone1]

24. K&R

[watoos]

29. Before anyone starts singing the praises

of the people who orchestrated a coup on a democratically elected leader, it should be mandatory to see who these people are.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/loving-a-putsch-cheering-a-democratic-neo-nazi-coup-in-ukraine/5371232

[L0oniX]

47. globalresearch.ca WTF!

While many of Globalresearch.ca's articles discuss legitimate humanitarian or environmental concerns, the site has a strong undercurrent of reality warping and bullshit throughout its pages, especially in relation to taking its news from "Russia Today", along with other unreliable and/or open sources.

[DeSwiss]

48. Details.

- When you're busy saving the world for democracy, no one's got time for facts.

[Trajan]

30. Even those who advocate a military response

Cannot escape a hard reality - there is no guarantee that a military intervention against Russia will be successful ... Russia is a bad mofo in conventional warfare, with boots on the ground and tanks on the street .... They are known to go hard and fast, and with little consideration for world opinion or human rights ...

They are no pushovers - it will take more than a mere interventionist response to dislodge them - it will take total war, and the world could not survive all out war between Russia and the US.

Unless we are willing to wage complete war and risk everything - intervention against Russia will be unsuccessful ...

Ain't gonna happen, no matter how many sabres get rattled and chests get beaten ...

[Junkdrawer]

44. And they're NOT the rusting hulk As Seen On TV during the 90s....

http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2013-06/russian-submarine-fleet-reborn

[Blanks]

50. Yes. We don't get taught much about the 'Russian role' in WWII in school...

But they call it 'The Great Patriotic War' and they lost 20 million people in the war. Every family lost relatives. The sacrifices that they made make the American sacrifices pale in comparison.

In their cities they fought street to street, house to house, inch by inch. They were our allies and they are very tough people. In fact, though American history tells us that the Americans won the war - the turning point was the battle of Kursk. We provided them with oodles of supplies, but they did the fighting, they made the sacrifices.

We should respect them.

[WhiteTara]

32. The sage advice of someone who has been there

and done that. I hope you are well today and that you are never sent somewhere like that again!

[Gman]

40. Do people those people realize the nuclear weapon implications?

Didn't think so.

[MrScorpio]

41. Damn Skippy!!! nt

[totodeinhere]

45. Up until recently, Putin was generally considering persona non grata at DU

due to his brutal oppression of LGBT's in his country. I was among those criticizing him for that.

But it seems that the mood has changed and now suddenly a lot of people don't seem to want to criticize Putin anymore. Why? Does militarily intervening in another sovereign country get him off the hook for his brutal domestic policies?

With a very few exceptions the vast majority of us do not support US military intervention. I know I don't. But Putin is a bad person on any number of levels and I for one am not going to let up with my condemnation of his policies.

[IrishAyes]

79. No one's asking you to do that.

[L0oniX]

46. NO! DO NOT SIGN UP! I do not want the taxes I pay going to your military paycheck!

[3catwoman3]

51. Your comment brings up a question...

...I have long pondered. I feel much as you do - I would rather not have my taxes paying for war. Why doesn't that point of view matter just as much as that of those who wish to interfere with women's reproductive choices?

[L0oniX]

53. War is never healthy. Women having reproductive choices is.

Seems clear cut but maybe it isn't. There's no use in me trying to stop them from using my tax money for war. I'll hold on to my resentment about that. Personal health choices IMO is not on the same playing field. I'm not going to complain or revolt at the use of my tax money to pay for the health care of a drug addict or lung cancer victim of smoking or a vet who did what he was told to do. I don't know the answers or the right way of this matter only that I am determined to take a stand about war and peace. I've been a hippy, anti war and anti corrupt corporation since the days of Vietnam. Maybe it's a matter of how large the issue seems to the individual.

[Skittles]

52. PREACH IT 11 BRAVO

yes INDEED

[MisterP]

54. "Those who do not know how to live must make a merit of dying" --Shaw

[freshwest]

58. +1

[iamthebandfanman]

55. definitely uncalled for.

Russia is a large nation that's very involved with the world now...

there are plenty of ways to punish them without firing a shot... especially if Europe and the UN get involved as well...

personally I say everyone should squeeze them financially until the bread lines start to form again and putins dumbass is ban from politics.. but that's just me.

[Maedhros]

59. I will risk being punished by a jury and just say that anyone advocating war with Russia

over the Ukraine is batshit crazy.

[vlakitti]

61. Thank you. "Batshit crazy" is a fair and modest description.

The attempted whipped-up hysteria actually doesn't seem to be very effective these days.

More of a parody, actually, despite McCain and Lindsay being all over the loudmouth media mouthing the selfsame nonsense for the 8000th time this year.

In two weeks, this issue will reach "Benghazi!" level seriousness.

[IrishAyes]

80. If a jury punishes you, they might as well take me too. I second your comment.

[Cheese4TheRat]

62. Excellent post!

[joshcryer]

63. Only person I know here is BrentWil

Anyone else actually advocating that?

[2banon]

89. no, he's joined by a few others.. but I'm feeling that they're small minority

I won't id (please don't ask me to). I was stunned over the weekend to see/read calls for military action against Russia... but now I'm realizing it's on a small scale here i think..

As I write this response, I just heard on the radio a clip of McCain denouncing Russia, ending with "It Cannot Stand". ...

which reminds me that we have to hold war hawks in check even if they're in a minority.

[riqster]

67. A-friggin'-men.

Putin is a scumbucket's scumbucket, but going to war over the Ukraine? That would be Shrubya come again.

The diplomatic and economic toolboxes are opening as we speak, and though some may mock their use, they have a good track record. Putin is vulnerable to them, so they are the "hammer" for his "nail".

He didn't push so hard for three high-profile international events in a row in Sochi because he doesn't need money from, and influence over, the world community. He did so because he DOES need that money and influence.

[Mkap]

69. intervention

it's amazing how many people think that international politics is a dick measuring contest

Ohhhh boooohhooo we "don't look tough" compared to the rest of the world. SO what???? Fox news anchors with their five year old like maturity are clueless

[IrishAyes]

73. I was going to write you a specific thanks, but will instead refer you to my post #72.

[TNNurse]

82. I am OK with certain Americans going

John McCain, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush should go right now.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

83. Very few people here at DU are advocating US military intervention.

Just because those of us who are vocal about Russia's military incursion into Ukraine does not mean we automatically support US military intervention.

You're seriously strawmanning it.

[Brigid]

86. Anybody advocating going to war needs to see this:

It's from "All Quiet on the Western Front." See the entire movie for further details.

[IrishAyes]

90. "All's Quiet On the Western Front" should be required viewing for everyone.

[workinclasszero]

93. Yeah lets get into a war on Russia's doorstep

Two nuclear powers mano a mano. The reich wing have been dyin for this forever! I mean...What could possibly go wrong?

The MIC would love it! Your kids die, theirs get even more rich!

And if Puttie goes all the way over the edge and decides to use those nukes..well...