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RandySF

(60,054 posts)
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 11:30 PM Mar 2014

Neo-Nazis Pour Into Kiev

A stream of European jihadists have traveled to Syria to wage holy war. Now a group of European neo-Nazis are traveling to Ukraine to save the white race

In early February, Fredrik Hagberg stood at the rostrum in Kiev’s City Hall, offering fraternal and comradely greetings from Sweden to the sweaty, bruised, and exhausted Ukrainian insurrectionists scattered throughout. The place was festooned with flags—some celtic crosses, a stray Confederate banner, a standard for the political party Svoboda, whose members essentially controlled the building—reflecting the dubious politics of its occupiers.

Revolutionary tourists, thrill seekers, and parachute journalists suffused Kiev. Sen. John McCain, actress Hayden Panettiere, and French intellectual Bernard Henri-Levy roused massive crowds with paeans to freedom and national sovereignty, while offering moral support to the opposition forces led by former boxing champion Vitaly Klitschko.

But Hagberg, a square-jawed and baby-faced member of the Swedish armed forces, had a darker message.

“I stand before your forces of revolution to tell you about what your future might be if you fail your glorious endeavour,” he said in fluid-but-clipped English. “I stand here as a Swede. However where I come from is no longer Sweden.” Hagberg warned Ukrainians that a successful revolution must chart a path that carefully avoided the evils of abortion and ethnic mongrelization, one that harshly punished welfare abuse and rejected the normalization of homosexuality. “Officials in Sweden like to calls us the most modern country in the world. I say to you, brothers, this is what awaits you if you choose to follow our example. You now have the opportunity to choose and create your own future. Do not accept the trap of choosing either the West or Russia.”

It’s unclear who, if anyone, invited him, but Hagberg was speaking as a representative of Nordisk Ungdom (Nordic Youth), a Swedish neo-Nazi group that celebrates “a traditional ideal of a better man, striving for something greater and more noble than his own personal benefit; an idealistic man who fights for Europe’s freedom.” Visitors to the group’s English-language website are met with with a Barbara Kruger-like advertisement beseeching visitors to “help us to help the revolution! Support a free Ukraine! Donate Now...” Because Hagberg is trying to provoke his fellow neo-Nazis into travelling to Kiev to help shape a new, fascist-friendly Ukraine.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/28/the-swedish-neo-nazis-of-kiev.html

36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Neo-Nazis Pour Into Kiev (Original Post) RandySF Mar 2014 OP
Amazing: We used to shun any association with Neo-Nazis, now it is ok to combine forces with them... newthinking Mar 2014 #1
Not really. We have baggers, paulites and white supremacists in the GOP. I posted this earlier: freshwest Mar 2014 #10
So one neoNazi jackass from Sweden = them pouring into Kiev? Lol Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #2
Says the guy who refuses to denounce actual neo-nazis. Union Scribe Mar 2014 #4
If you actually read the link, you would have more information. Comrade Grumpy Mar 2014 #6
LOL. I began the response to #1 and end up #10 after your #3. Bet I won't get a reply, either. n/t freshwest Mar 2014 #12
Well, yours was worth the wait. It looks like you've compiled Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #14
I come to DU for information and reasoning, not opinion so much. Thanks. n/t freshwest Mar 2014 #16
lmao iamthebandfanman Mar 2014 #15
Yeah, just one RandySF Mar 2014 #18
Why are neo-nazis against acme cream? snooper2 Mar 2014 #32
Why are these characters running loose? Why are they tolerated? UGH! freshwest Mar 2014 #36
The BBC conducted in person interviews. go west young man Mar 2014 #23
You call everything a lie you don't want to face as a fact. Starry Messenger Mar 2014 #31
Post removed Post removed Mar 2014 #3
I think your inflammatory graphic photos should have a warning Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #7
I think those photos should be shown on the nightly news every time that kind of horror happens. nt polly7 Mar 2014 #11
Once again I agree with you Polly. go west young man Mar 2014 #24
I agree. And we can be sure if those photos were not a record of our drone 'wars', but of Russia eg sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #26
no one expects the us dronequisition tiny elvis Mar 2014 #13
Bad taste? Sure... awoke_in_2003 Mar 2014 #22
We shouldn't help Nazis in Ukraine, just as it would have been a bad idea to help terrorists in quinnox Mar 2014 #5
We are helping rebels in Syria with non lethal aid Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #8
No, whats sad iamthebandfanman Mar 2014 #17
There are a sizable number of Neo-Nazis in Ukraine quinnox Mar 2014 #20
I have no problem admitting there are Neo-Nazis in Ukraine Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #21
The BBC disagrees with you. go west young man Mar 2014 #25
Oh you again. Lol. Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #28
Yep. Just me and the BBC. go west young man Mar 2014 #29
I watched it. They were very clear that influence of those groups is still limited Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #30
I'm curious how a BBC reporter go west young man Mar 2014 #33
Classic neocon mischief - they don't care how messy it gets, as long as they get their way. reformist2 Mar 2014 #9
I fucking hate Nazis. Deep13 Mar 2014 #19
They are psychopaths. I know they were worse than we know. Even a hint that these people are being sabrina 1 Mar 2014 #27
+ infinity squared nt Zorra Mar 2014 #34
Let's just call them a motley crew of unsavory characters we *hope* we can control. reformist2 Mar 2014 #35

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
10. Not really. We have baggers, paulites and white supremacists in the GOP. I posted this earlier:
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 01:33 AM
Mar 2014
91. John McCain met with the leaders of Svoboda:


U.S. Senator John McCain, right, meets Ukrainian opposition leaders Arseniy Yatsenyuk, left, and Oleh Tyahnybok in Kiev, Ukraine, Saturday, Dec. 14, 2013.
photo and caption courtesy of Business Insider

Svoboda: The rise of Ukraine's ultra-nationalists


...Take Oleh Tyahnybok, the rather rugged leader of Svboda, which dominates the Western-most provinces of Ukraine. Western media has described him as one of the three most important opposition leaders and he's met foreign dignitaries like John McCain. He is also a potentially dangerous man. In one infamous speech in 2004, Tyahinybok lashed out at the "Moscow-Jewish mafia" and the "kikes". In 2005, he wrote an open letter to the President asking him to halt the "criminal activities" of "organised Jewry". It should be noted that he insists he is not anti-Semitic, simply "pro-Ukrainian" and that he has won prosecutions against him for ethnic hatred.

But Svboda has form. It is a member of the Alliance of European National Movements, along with France's National Front, the British National Party and Hungary's Jobbik. Its policies include taking farm land into national ownership and giving to people to hold on a "hereditry basis". No one who was not born in Ukraine can become a citizen; outsiders cannot adopt Ukrainian children. In 2005, one of the party's deputies founding the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Center. It was later renamed after a German conservative revolutionary. That particular deputy described the Holocaust as "a bright episode in European civilisation" which "strongly warms the hearts of the Palestinian population." The best defence against Jewish corruption is childbearing Ukrainians. Women carry the societal and racial morality … the 300 ovulations of every Ukrainian woman, as well as the 1,500 ejaculations of every Ukrainian man are the same national treasures as, say, energy resources or deposits of iron, coal or oil.

Some of Svboda supporters are people who believe that the German invasion of Ukraine in the 1940s was not an occupation but a liberation from "Jewish Bolshevism". Needless to say, they also don't like gay people.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100260665/ukraine-the-opposition-arent-all-angels-some-are-neo-nazis/

They sound worse than our own Tealiban! That's from the UK Telegraph, which I guess is a good source. There are links to follow in the article:

http://blogs.reuters.com/john-lloyd/2014/02/21/ukraines-important-next-move/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20824693

I'm not sure what is going on there, just still gatthering data without filtering it as much as possible to get a feel of it and sort out the facts separate from the confusion that emotions might arouse. I'm thinking of the people of this region, and not wanting a war to get going that is going to destabilize Europe and then keep going.

What do you think of that?

I read they also want a nuke. It all sounds damned scary to me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024559393#post91

And was informed differently, and here is the subthread. And that the man who is now president, is not Svoboda, which has a despicable rep but is very strong in the far western parts of Ukraine, a tiny portion of the country:

103. Of course the article doesn't mention that Arseniy Yatsenyuk is the member of the largest political party in Ukraine.

He's a member of the Fatherland party (which isn't a reference to Nazi Germany). The Fatherland party was the second largest party until a few of the members of the President's party (Party of Nations) withdrew from the party. Typical sensationalist garbage. Yes, the Svboda is an ultra national far right party and yes they're one of the groups of protesters. They currently have 7% of the seats in parliament. None of the interim leaders are from that party. Three groups make up the opposition, Fatherland, the Punch party of the boxer and Svboda. The Russian propaganda comes in when they try to make it seem like the entire opposition is the Svboda party.

McCain met with them. They are legitimate members of Parliament and the opposition, and nobody has told McCain he isn't the Secretary of State, McCain's former campaign manager and other neo-con groups worked with President Yanukovich.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024559393#post103

140. I thought my links were good, Telegraph, BBC and Reutiers. But what are neo-cons and people that are
not part of the Department of State doing running around over there?



I don't think he's on a mission for Obama or Kerry, and I don't trust 'Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran' Johnny for a minute.

I still think Svoboda is the most hateful group around and should not be tolerated. That is some sick stuff there, in line with the most rabid of what we have here, all mixed into one stinking heap. It concerns me that private interests such as McCain represents, Palin or whoever, are propagandizing the American people on this. They want a war!

It's not like Europe doesn't know where this will lead, so they have reasons to be upset, even a bit sensationalist with the history there.

I googled and followed a lot of links last night, saw some of the videos made by Svoboda, and this same meme that you and others say is being pushed by the Russians, all appeared on many sites at once that I don't care for anymore, like Counterpunch, etc.

The headline on all of them reads almost exactly the same:

Ukraine and the Rebirth of Fascism in Europe

Right Sector The Great Ukrainian Reconquista

Euromaidan: The Dark Shadows Of The Far-Right In Ukraine Protests

Svoboda: The rise of Ukraine's ultra-nationalists

Ukraine protests are no longer just about Europe

Those are BBC, Guardian and the Telegraph. I haven't seen anything from the Daily Mail, which I've been told is a sensationalist source.

I don't know how this is being covered in American media. I can see why some people are worried about what is going on there considering what is going on in our country. I don't watch television, as it's all RW trash to me.

As far as the Russians are concerned, this may be their propaganda, but they aren't doing anything but standing to the side in this affair, despite the loss of revenue they had.

Are you saying the Russians are fooling the press in Britain?

Just trying to get all the data I can. I don't follow the CT that says the evil USA in charge of the world. We obviously are not and I don't care for the kind of byzantine plotting that some ascribe to us. We aren't that clever.

And I admit that I cannot grasp the parliamentary system of government. It's so fluid as to be almost fleeting and that seems unstable to me. But then all I've lived with our system, which is too inflexible now.

The one thing I do know, is that with extremists, they really will pull out all the stops and do not change their minds. That these people are even in the government, is very disturbing. We don't elect people like that here except Teabaggers who would like to see it all burn.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024559393#post140

In another thread, a link to this was posted by frazzle:

to frazzled.

Ukraine: The Haze of Propaganda


by Timothy Snyder

From Moscow to London to New York, the Ukrainian revolution has been seen through a haze of propaganda. Russian leaders and the Russian press have insisted that Ukrainian protesters were right-wing extremists and then that their victory was a coup. Ukraine’s president, Viktor Yanukovych, used the same clichés after a visit with the Russian president at Sochi. After his regime was overturned, he maintained he had been ousted by “right-wing thugs,” a claim echoed by the armed men who seized control of airports and government buildings in the southern Ukrainian district of Crimea on Friday.**

Interestingly, the message from authoritarian regimes in Moscow and Kiev was not so different from some of what was written during the uprising in the English-speaking world, especially in publications of the far left and the far right. From Lyndon LaRouche’s Executive Intelligence Review through Ron Paul’s newsletter through The Nation and The Guardian, the story was essentially the same: little of the factual history of the protests, but instead a play on the idea of a nationalist, fascist, or even Nazi coup d’état.

In fact, it was a classic popular revolution. It began with an unmistakably reactionary regime. A leader sought to gather all power, political as well as financial, in his own hands. This leader came to power in democratic elections, to be sure, but then altered the system from within. For example, the leader had been a common criminal: a rapist and a thief. He found a judge who was willing to misplace documents related to his case. That judge then became the chief justice of the Supreme Court. There were no constitutional objections, subsequently, when the leader asserted ever more power for his presidency.

In power, this leader, this president, remained a thief, but now on a grand, perhaps even unsurpassed, scale. Throughout his country millions of small businessmen and businesswomen found it impossible to keep their firms afloat, thanks to the arbitrary demands of tax authorities. Their profits were taken by the state, and the autonomy that those profits might have given them were denied. Workers in the factories and mines had no means whatsoever of expression their own distress, since any attempt at a strike or even at labor organization would simply have led to their dismissal.


There is much more at the link, it's well worth the read:

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

It descibes an oligarchy that was strangling the people of Ukraine. That is why we saw so many peaceful protestors as it began and didn't stop. And former Red Army Ukrainians came to the aid of students, along with Russians and all the groups we can imagine. Gay activists worked with them.

The author, is described as:

Timothy Snyder is Housum Professor of History at Yale and the author of Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin. This month, he is to deliver a Philippe Roman Lecture on the origins of the Holocaust at the London School of Economics. (March 2014)

Titles he has written are:
#
Fascism, Russia, and Ukraine
March 20, 2014
#
Ukraine: The New Dictatorship
February 20, 2014
#
‘In the Cage, Trying to Get Out’
October 24, 2013

http://www.nybooks.com/contributors/timothy-snyder-2/?tab=tab-blog

He asks these questions:

Has it ever before happened that people associated with Ukrainian, Russian, Belarusian, Armenian, Polish, and Jewish culture have died in a revolution that was started by a Muslim? Can we who pride ourselves in our diversity and tolerance think of anything remotely similar in our own histories?

This article changed my mind where none of the blustering opinions at DU could have. I still want a just outcome for all these people and for Svoboda to be soundly smacked down. I see why the EU wants to deal with the new government and not Yanukovych.

I still see no villains other than on the personal level, and appreciate even more that we are NOT going to war over this. Now I think some have been misled and I admit to great confusion on this. I'm thinking Yanukovych did need to be taken out of power.

** I also understand why they may think that way. In their minds, they are fighting a war from long ago. They do not know a new way to deal with their own corrupt oligarchical rulers, so they must revert to old enemies.

JMHO.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024592583#post41

And about the weakness of the Neo-Nazis in Ukraine:

As I understand it, the interim President is a member of the All-Ukrainian Union "Fatherland" party which, on reading about it, sounds like a mix of the conservative parts of the republican party in the US and regular socialism. I've edited some from my original post in this reply to you as I've learned more... I came to this discussion willing to learn and see what the reality there is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Ukrainian_Union_%22Fatherland%22

Ideology and stances

Batkivshchyna has an eclectic ideology; the party stated it advocates "European values" and "a high level of living for people".

The party wants to simplify procedures for opening and closing of businesses. It also wants to "establish a new minimum wage and will raise wages and pensions and lower taxes" and it wants to limit the kinds of taxes to seven and simplify the methods of payment and "minimise the possibility of tax evasion through offshore companies". It also wants to create "public non-profit construction company that will build affordable housing".

The party wants a campaign against corruption. It advocates an "anti-corruption lustration" whereby state officials' expenses and property values are compared with their tax declarations. If there is a discrepancy, the officials will be criminally charged and banned from public office. It wants to establish a "National Anti-Corruption Bureau" modeled on the FBI (an idea that has circulated in Ukraine since the late 1990s). The party believes that what has been "stolen" through corrupt tenders and insider privatizations should be returned to the state budget. Organizing election fraud will be criminally liable and voting in parliament for absent lawmakers punishable.

According to the party, only citizens of Ukraine will have the right to private ownership of land, but "high concentration of land in one hand" will not be allowed.

The party sees Ukrainian membership in the European Union (EU) as a strategic goal and wants to "cancel humiliating visa regimes" and a visa-free travel for Ukrainians to the EU. It would like to see "a mutually beneficial and equitable agreement on the establishment of free trade with Russia". In June 2013 the parties parliamentary faction voted for the denunciation of the 2010 Ukrainian–Russian Naval Base for Natural Gas treaty. The parties 2012 election program did not mention NATO.

The party wants to prosecute "Law enforcement involved in political repression" and to impeach current Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and his “anti-people regime” to "return Ukraine to the path of European integration".

The party tries to reverse the Azarov Government policy of raising the status of the Russian language.

The party is in favor of party-list proportional representation elections with open lists. And Citizens' Initiative's after 50,000 signatures are collected. The party also wants to empower local governance.

Government grants should be awarded to graduates who successfully passed testing for studies at Ukrainian universities.

The basis of Ukraine's health system will be mandatory health insertion and the gradual development of voluntary health insurance by employers.

The party wants to introduce jury trials into the Ukrainian law system and wants to "depoliticise" the process of appointment of judges. It also wants an independent judiciary that will increase the role of the Supreme Court of Ukraine. The Constitutional Court of Ukraine, "which has compromised itself with decisions that were ordered (by the Yanukovych administration)," should be liquidated.

The criminal code be "Europeanized" and law enforcement brought under civil control.

The party wants to improve human rights in Ukraine.

The party believes that the Holodomor was genocide of the Ukrainian nation.


It appears they have a plan for governance, and returning some privatized things to the Commons. If only we had that idea here...

I heard in some videos they want to protect their elderly and disabled. I thought perhaps the former leader was enforcing austerity measures already, but it turns out he was just supporting the oligarchy and leaving people with no redress for their greviances.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014739395#post3

I've been learning about all the angles in this conflict. This one article seemed to be very clear indeed, using the history of the protest. Make of it what you will:

to frazzled.

Ukraine: The Haze of Propaganda


by Timothy Snyder

From Moscow to London to New York, the Ukrainian revolution has been seen through a haze of propaganda. Russian leaders and the Russian press have insisted that Ukrainian protesters were right-wing extremists and then that their victory was a coup. Ukraine’s president, Viktor Yanukovych, used the same clichés after a visit with the Russian president at Sochi. After his regime was overturned, he maintained he had been ousted by “right-wing thugs,” a claim echoed by the armed men who seized control of airports and government buildings in the southern Ukrainian district of Crimea on Friday.**

Interestingly, the message from authoritarian regimes in Moscow and Kiev was not so different from some of what was written during the uprising in the English-speaking world, especially in publications of the far left and the far right. From Lyndon LaRouche’s Executive Intelligence Review through Ron Paul’s newsletter through The Nation and The Guardian, the story was essentially the same: little of the factual history of the protests, but instead a play on the idea of a nationalist, fascist, or even Nazi coup d’état.

In fact, it was a classic popular revolution. It began with an unmistakably reactionary regime. A leader sought to gather all power, political as well as financial, in his own hands. This leader came to power in democratic elections, to be sure, but then altered the system from within. For example, the leader had been a common criminal: a rapist and a thief. He found a judge who was willing to misplace documents related to his case. That judge then became the chief justice of the Supreme Court. There were no constitutional objections, subsequently, when the leader asserted ever more power for his presidency.

In power, this leader, this president, remained a thief, but now on a grand, perhaps even unsurpassed, scale. Throughout his country millions of small businessmen and businesswomen found it impossible to keep their firms afloat, thanks to the arbitrary demands of tax authorities. Their profits were taken by the state, and the autonomy that those profits might have given them were denied. Workers in the factories and mines had no means whatsoever of expression their own distress, since any attempt at a strike or even at labor organization would simply have led to their dismissal.


There is much more at the link, it's well worth the read:

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

It descibes an oligarchy that was strangling the people of Ukraine. That is why we saw so many peaceful protestors as it began and didn't stop. And former Red Army Ukrainians came to the aid of students, along with Russians and all the groups we can imagine. Gay activists worked with them.

The author, is described as:

Timothy Snyder is Housum Professor of History at Yale and the author of Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin. This month, he is to deliver a Philippe Roman Lecture on the origins of the Holocaust at the London School of Economics. (March 2014)

Titles he has written are:
#
Fascism, Russia, and Ukraine
March 20, 2014
#
Ukraine: The New Dictatorship
February 20, 2014
#
‘In the Cage, Trying to Get Out’
October 24, 2013

http://www.nybooks.com/contributors/timothy-snyder-2/?tab=tab-blog

He asks these questions:

Has it ever before happened that people associated with Ukrainian, Russian, Belarusian, Armenian, Polish, and Jewish culture have died in a revolution that was started by a Muslim? Can we who pride ourselves in our diversity and tolerance think of anything remotely similar in our own histories?

This article changed my mind where none of the blustering opinions at DU could have. I still want a just outcome for all these people and for Svoboda to be soundly smacked down. I see why the EU wants to deal with the new government and not Yanukovych.

I still see no villains other than on the personal level, and appreciate even more that we are NOT going to war over this. Now I think some have been misled and I admit to great confusion on this. I'm thinking Yanukovych did need to be taken out of power.

** I also understand why they may think that way. In their minds, they are fighting a war from long ago. They do not know a new way to deal with their own corrupt oligarchical rulers, so they must revert to old enemies.

JMHO.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024592583#post41

I'm guessing you are a fast reader and going over all of that isn't too burdensome. It's how i've evolved my opinion on this. I may yet change my mind again. I simply wish that the people there will find a way to live in a just society with peace.


 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
2. So one neoNazi jackass from Sweden = them pouring into Kiev? Lol
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 01:04 AM
Mar 2014

The only thing semi entertaining is watching all of the over-amped lies and propaganda being spewed by Russia and their allied Internet buddies in an attempt to create panic about them Nazis.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
6. If you actually read the link, you would have more information.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 01:13 AM
Mar 2014

It's not one guy, but the numbers do appear to be small. A few dozen Swedish neo-nazis and Polish "Falangists."

And some big talking Euro-rightists.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
14. Well, yours was worth the wait. It looks like you've compiled
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 01:48 AM
Mar 2014

Some great information. I hope others will take the time to look at it.

iamthebandfanman

(8,127 posts)
15. lmao
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 01:55 AM
Mar 2014

any threat of the spread of authoritarian nationalism is never 'over-amped'...

but as someone who despises putin , he probably should take care of the nationalists in his own country before invading another...

I think the people of crimea should be allowed to decide their own fate.. and if a majority of folks there wish to become independent or join back with Russia (who has ties to the region that go back before the soviets) then so be it..

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
31. You call everything a lie you don't want to face as a fact.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 05:12 PM
Mar 2014

When called on it you run away. No one cares what you think.

Response to RandySF (Original post)

 

go west young man

(4,856 posts)
24. Once again I agree with you Polly.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 03:20 AM
Mar 2014

If people were exposed to the horrors of war then we would be much more reluctant to promote killing each other and spending money on the war machine. If DU'ers who are pushing for war get upset over seeing a photo of such horrors then maybe they need to rethink their philosophy. Turning ones eyes away from reality does no one any favors. Maybe future wars will be avoided once people wake up to the horrors of war.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
26. I agree. And we can be sure if those photos were not a record of our drone 'wars', but of Russia eg
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 03:56 AM
Mar 2014

they WOULD be all over the media. Hiding them, as you can see even here, is an attempt to censor what the American people know about what is being done in their name. Censorship is EVIL.

I used to post photos of the result of our 'freedom bombs' in Iraq for right wingers during the Bush era. You would not believe how outraged they were, NOT at the poor dead victims, but at being forced to look at what they supported.

I am of the opinion that if you support all these invasions of countries like Iraq that did nothing to us, you should HAVE to look at what you are supporting.

There is a brutal war going on in the Central African Republican. People are dying there every day, many are desperately trying to escape to refugee camps. Horrible photos and video of the brutality are available online. But our Corporate Media has not covered these atrocities. Al Jazeera and RT have been covering that tragic story.

If we are sincerely concerned about human rights, CAR is the place we should be talking about.

Makes you wonder, why Ukraine and not CAR? Not that I'm advocating any kind of invasion, but for those who are, I'd like to know why they are focused on Ukraine rather than where the bodies are piling up every day.

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
22. Bad taste? Sure...
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 02:57 AM
Mar 2014

But that is what is being done in our name. It doesn't matter who is president- the slaughter of brown children continues.

On edit: I really want to to comment further on your "bad taste" statement, but if I did I would probably be tombstoned.

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
5. We shouldn't help Nazis in Ukraine, just as it would have been a bad idea to help terrorists in
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 01:12 AM
Mar 2014

Syria.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
8. We are helping rebels in Syria with non lethal aid
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 01:28 AM
Mar 2014

Some of the rebel groups are part of Islamic fundamentalist groups and some may be aligned with al Queda. But that is being managed.

Neonazis is a bogeyman Putin and has team have put out there to create doubt about Ukrainian government. Sad to see you've fallen for it.

iamthebandfanman

(8,127 posts)
17. No, whats sad
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 02:00 AM
Mar 2014

is how naïve you are about this region.

the threat of nationalism in Ukraine is very real whether you like it or not.

I personally hate 'president' putin... and think his actions have been extremely over the top...
but to pretend that right wingers aren't taking over the Ukraine wont change that.

I know the Ukrainian people were good intentioned getting behind these protests... their government was/is indeed corrupt...
but the folks leading the protests and ripping those statues down were right wing fundamentalists. im sorry, they just were.

so now the 'new government' of Ukraine is in and they are just as corrupt as the last bunch.. with ties to the CIA (weve tended to back nationalists since WW2 ended, not sure why..) and organized crime (mobs)..
I hardly think ousting one corrupt government for another form of corrupt government was really the goal most Ukrainians had in mind.


don't let your hatred for one man blur history for ya... enough of us hate him enough that you can hold back a little, I promise

the left hasn't had a fight in this since day one...
just a corrupt corporatist government against multiple corrupt criminal right wing nationalist groups... with the angry (at the sitting government) Ukrainian people caught in the middle.

lets just hope the international community punishes Russia for its actions economically.. I say squeeze until the bread lines start to form again, but that's just me.

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
20. There are a sizable number of Neo-Nazis in Ukraine
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 02:49 AM
Mar 2014

Denying this reality doesn't help your argument, it just looks like living in denial.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
21. I have no problem admitting there are Neo-Nazis in Ukraine
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 02:54 AM
Mar 2014

I have big problems with people who say Neo-Nazis are running Ukraine's national government.

And I have big problems with people who say hordes of Nazis from around Europe are converging on Kiev so they can partake in some Nazi uprising.

 

go west young man

(4,856 posts)
25. The BBC disagrees with you.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 03:22 AM
Mar 2014
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26394980 Watch the BBC interviews. they specifically mention these groups control 4 ministry buildings. I think that would constitute controlling the government. One of those ministries is the Ministry of Defense.
 

go west young man

(4,856 posts)
29. Yep. Just me and the BBC.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 05:10 PM
Mar 2014

Do you have anything to say about their report or are you just going to throw weak jabs at posters? It is a political discussion forum after all and not a 7th grade classroom. Although you do leave me to wonder.

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
30. I watched it. They were very clear that influence of those groups is still limited
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 05:11 PM
Mar 2014

which proves my point--not yours.

 

go west young man

(4,856 posts)
33. I'm curious how a BBC reporter
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 07:23 PM
Mar 2014

reporting from Ukraine, specifically saying at the 4:54 mark in the above cited video, that Svoboda and affiliated groups control 4 Ukranian government ministries including the Defense Ministry of Ukraine, bolsters your case? If anything a sensible person would probably assess that it actually pulls your case apart and drops a great big turd on it. Alas sensibility is lost on you.

Now carry on with your 7th grade antics or properly refute the claim in regards to the BBC reporting. One cannot just claim their point is proved without providing evidence. Although I do realize that is your normal modus operandi.

Deep13

(39,154 posts)
19. I fucking hate Nazis.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 02:37 AM
Mar 2014

They were not as bad as you think. They were so much worse than that. They were evil in ways that you did not know it was possible to be evil. Anyone who emulates them is either dumber than a bag of hammers or a stone cold psychopath.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
27. They are psychopaths. I know they were worse than we know. Even a hint that these people are being
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 04:02 AM
Mar 2014

received with any kind of welcome ANYWHERE should make good people rethink who they are supporting.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
35. Let's just call them a motley crew of unsavory characters we *hope* we can control.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 07:45 PM
Mar 2014

They're the best team our neocon diplomats could throw together!
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