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[Name removed]

[Cali_Democrat]

1. Iraq is irrelevant to this situation

Is the US not allowed to comment when a country like Ukraine gets invaded because Bush invaded Iraq?

That's just silly.

[wildbilln864]

14. Welcome to DU...

and for my part, I am sorry. I know it does not help. I was against the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Cali_Democrat]

15. I didn't support the invasion of Iraq

I certainly don't support acts of aggression against other countries.

I don't want the US engaging in acts of aggression and Iraq was an obvious mistake.

But that doesn't mean I don't want the current US administration to speak out against acts of aggression by Russia against Ukraine.

I want my government to oppose those acts, vocally.

[sendero]

43. Unfortunately...

.... when you spend all your money on a fancy car, you cannot buy that good deal house when it comes along. To say that Iraq has nothing to d with the present situation is foolish, of course it does. We wasted a trillion dollars we don't have. We have a military that is stretched to the breaking point. We have no credibility.

I would not want to get involved in the Ukraine under any circumstance, but to say Iraq has no bearing is nonsense.

[Cali_Democrat]

47. I really don't think Iraq had anything to do with Putin's invasion

I think the instability in Ukraine is what caused Putin to invade.

[sendero]

50. Perhaps I misunderstood..

... it doesn't have anything to do with Putin but it most definitely limits our options to respond.

[proudretiredvet]

20. There is some truth to what he says.

And because they hate us so much we all know they will refuse all of the foreign aid of any and all forms from now on.

There have been mistakes but this is not all one sided. We have given the arab nations of the middle east tens of billions of dollars in the last couple of decades. They took every dime and put their hands back out for the next batch or dollars.

They say they hate us but they have always loved our money.

We are not the only hypocrites on the face of the earth.

[G_j]

34. some truth?

welcome to DU

[MADem]

36. Does Egypt answer for the sins of King Farouk and his fondness for perversions?

Of course they don't. How about the crimes of your most recently jailed leader, who bumped the marriage age of girls back to a point we'd call pedophelia?

Bush is gone. We have different leadership, chosen by the people this time, not by five jerks on a nine-member court.

I'll tell you what, though--you might want to do a little reading if you want to stick around here. Start with this link, and understand that we don't appreciate broad-brushed, unsubstantiated attacks against our character--it makes us reluctant to treat you with dignity or respect when you behave in a base and classless manner.

Read the whole thing, now:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

Your tone is rude, disruptive and abrasive. You might want to work on that. Alternatively, there's a discussion board called Free Republic that might be VERY interested in hearing your views--check them out, maybe they'll be more to your liking.

[Enthusiast]

29. Really, it's not silly.

It is relevant.

[Cali_Democrat]

40. How? They're two separate incidents with two different belligerents...

Then using your logic, the Vietnam war is also relevant to the Ukraine situation.

[Enthusiast]

42. Any unprovoked past acts of aggression are relevant.

They serve to illustrate what a mistake it is to embark on a military exercise when it is less than absolutely essential. Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq. Why? Because I said so.

[Cali_Democrat]

45. I think we agree about those mistakes....

The OP implied that the US wasn't allowed to comment on the situation in Ukraine.

My post was specific to being able to comment on the situation.

I think we're arguing for no reason. I'm sure you agree with me that the US should speak out against military intervention in Ukraine.

I don't have a problem with that. In fact, I would hope my government speaks out against military aggression. That's a good thing. I think we're on the same page here.

[Enthusiast]

46. Okay? Alright.

[Renew Deal]

2. Do two wrongs make a right?

[Scootaloo]

3. It does for some countries whose military we finance n/t

[stevenleser]

4. Assuming we accept your premise, the pot calling the kettle black doesnt mean the kettle isnt black.

If this is your attempt to justify the war crime of an unprovoked war of aggression by Russia against Ukraine, it is an epic fail.

[Fumesucker]

25. You constantly put words in other people's mouths

That is not an honest tactic, rather it is the sort of dishonest rhetorical trick one comes to expect from Fox News.

The point is that the kettle may indeed be black but it's not the pot's place to comment on the blackness of the kettle.

[ManiacJoe]

5. Given the experience of the upper-level politicians,

they should be pretty good at recognizing "illegal aggression" by now.
Theirs, ours....

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. You know, once you undertsand that nations

work at the level of their interests and use things like morality to manipulate their populations, you get over it.

[stevil]

7. Do you think

all of us here believe American politicians? Just a question.

[Fumesucker]

26. Read the thread, clearly *some* on DU believe every damn word our politicians utter

[JI7]

8. he should stop telling Netanyahu what to do also

[BainsBane]

9. Kinda like Putin's OP Ed in the NY Times about Syria

Pols never hold themselves to the same standards they hold others. What else is new?

[dionysus]

10. ha ha ha!

troll trolls poorly...

[awoke_in_2003]

21. Troll or zombie? nt

[Pretzel_Warrior]

11. If Obama had invaded Iraq against international law...

And was now turning around to lecture, maybe you would have a point.

Iraq invasion by GWB's administration and the brutal occupation afterward will forever be black marks on the record of US foreign policy.

Obama did in so many words apogize for the wrecklessness, lawlessness and torture executed by Bush/Cheney.

Just as many of us were outrages by Bush's rape of Iraq so we are outraged by Putin's actions.

Thus far, no casualties and still time for everyone to collect themselves and make better decisions.

[G_j]

37. The US should apologize to everyone on the planet

for it's illegal aggressive actions, which have made the world less safe for everyone, and have led to an increase in human rights abuses, such as torture, across the globe in the name of fighting terrorism.

[apples and oranges]

18. Another consequence of Bush's illegal war

You're right. The US has very little, if any, moral authority left. From my understanding, we're killing people at this very moment with drones and such. Kind of hard to demand that other countries stop doing what we've done and continue to do.

[wildbilln864]

19. yep. n/t

[newfie11]

22. Exactly nt

[malaise]

35. At least you see the problem

and it is a serious problem. The US has long lost credibility and to the outside world who is President hardly matters.

Who is financing that shite in Venezuela as I type?

[Jenoch]

23. Comparing Russia with the U.S. about aggression

over independent states is ridiculous. If you think otherwise, look up the 14 countries that used to be a part of the USSR with Russia.

[Fumesucker]

27. Hawaii was once an independent state

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii

On July 6, 1846, U.S. Secretary of State John C. Calhoun, on behalf of President Tyler, afforded formal recognition of Hawaiian independence. As a result of the recognition of Hawaiian independence, the Hawaiian Kingdom entered into treaties with the major nations of the world and established over ninety legations and consulates in multiple seaports and cities.[4] Though there were threats to Hawaii's sovereignty throughout the Kingdom's history, it was not until the signing of the Bayonet Constitution in 1887 that this threat began to be realized. On January 17, 1893, the last monarch of the Kingdom of Hawaii, Queen Lili'uokalani, was deposed in a coup d'état led by seven non-native subjects of the Hawaiian Kingdom, five American nationals, one English national, and one German national,[5] all who were living and doing business in Hawaii and opposed to her attempt to establish a new Constitution.

The coup efforts were supported by American minister to Hawaii John L. Stevens and the invasion of U.S. Marines, who came ashore at the request of the conspirators. The coup left the queen imprisoned at Iolani Palace under house arrest. It briefly became the Republic of Hawaii, before eventual seizure by the United States in 1898.

The overthrow was led by Lorrin A. Thurston, a grandson of American missionaries, who derived his support primarily from the American and European business class residing in Hawaii and other supporters of the Reform Party of the Hawaiian Kingdom. Most of the leaders of the Committee of Safety that deposed the queen were American and European citizens who were also Kingdom subjects. They included legislators, government officers, and a Supreme Court Justice of the Hawaiian Kingdom.[6]

[Jenoch]

30. So were the the other 49 states,

and comparing them to the Soviet conquests is just as silly.

[Fumesucker]

31. Comparing invasions and overthrowing governments on the other hand is not silly

[Jenoch]

32. What government invasions is it that you mention?

[Fumesucker]

33. This one specifically

The coup efforts were supported by American minister to Hawaii John L. Stevens and the invasion of U.S. Marines, who came ashore at the request of the conspirators.

[Jenoch]

44. The Hawaiin Islands were destined to be

be governed by an established authority. What government other than the U.S. or the Kingdom od Hawaii would have been a better choice?

[Fumesucker]

48. Destiny, eh?

It all looks so preordained from here but that is just one perspective and an illusory one at that.

History often turns on the smallest details.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_Want_of_a_Nail

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

[MADem]

38. And it woulda been Japanese territory had we not gotten there first. nt

[Fumesucker]

39. You can justify anything you want to

If Dick and Dubya had been remotely held accountable in any way for what they did I'd probably feel differently about it but at this juncture all I can see is the massive hypocrisy of my own people.

It's no mere coincidence that the sin Jesus the Christ most often and forcefully condemned was that of hypocrisy.

[MADem]

41. I am not "justifying" anything. That's simply a statement of fact.

And it's not hypocritical to point out the bloody obvious. Japan would have overrun HI in a heartbeat and used it as a base to attack USA, had they gotten there first. Many would have died, many more than died at Pearl Harbor.

It's not about Bush or Cheney, or Jesus, Mohamad, or Allah/Yahweh, it's about fuel limits, putting ordnance on target, and obtaining strategic advantage. Ask the Guamanians, they'll tell you.

[JI7]

24. and Germany should also never criticize anyone because of hitler

and Obama is aligning with a country that elected hitler. we have no right to judge.

[MMcGuire]

28. "Do you guys actually believes American politicians? I don't understand."

Americans believe politicians as much as the rest of the world does.

[Adrahil]

49. And yet MORE hair shirt politics.

And to be clear, as unwise and unjustified as the Iraq invasion was, it was NOT illegal.