Stand Your Ground laws have Nothing to do with 2nd Amendment rights.

[Warren Stupidity]

The two issues are entirely separable. Those of us here who are honest 2nd Amendment absolutists should realize that fact, distance themselves from the rightwing supporters of stupidly relaxed self defense laws, and join the rest of the DU community in vocal opposition to the ALEC and NRA supported nationwide effort to impose Stand Your Ground self defense laws across the nation.

[lunatica]

1. You mean there's something we can agree on?

I'd like to see you expound on this. I've always been of the opinion that if we can regulate the sales of guns in an effort to curb people like Jared Loughner, the man who shot Gabriel Giffords, lots of people, including the little girl he killed would be alive.

But that's just me. I don't care if people have guns. I've even done some target practice myself. But it seems some people think that if you mess with anything having to do with guns that somehow they'll all be taken away. My ex-father in law used to say that "if you give them an inch, they'll end up taking all your gun rights away." That's stupid thinking as far as I'm concerned. That's like saying that if you take driving privileges away from a drunk driver that somehow they're going to take all our cars away from us.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. Again, SYG is not a gun right's issue at all.

These laws could be repealed tomorrow in every state that ALEC and the NRA have pushed them into law, and your right to own, purchase, and carry a gun would not be changed. SYG changes the circumstances under which one can claim self defense after using lethal force. The only connection is that using a gun is one form of lethal force. The conflation of SYG with 2nd Amendment rights is deliberate and typical of how the right operates.

[lunatica]

5. Thanks

I've always thought that way.

If you take a fist to a fight you'll just have a fistfight and everyone lives to learn and move on.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. About half the states do not have a duty to retreat requirement

Not all of them are like Florida's SYG laws.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. ALEC and the NRA are hard at work on those states.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. I think you have your polarity reversed

[smaug]

9. Exactly

In fact, I support doubling sentencing on crimes committed with firearms -- which if the NRA was truly concerned with RKBA issues would be supporting. But, the NRA is simply a division of the GOP gangster criminal organization, just like Faux Noise and the rest of Big Corporate Media. Interesting how these issues get ignored by BCM until social media forces the issue . . , isn't it?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. Actually there are already firearms enhancement penalties in many jurisdictions

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. Except Loughner was not a failure of the gun sales process

It was a failure of those who should have reported his medical condition(s) and did not.

[lunatica]

28. A fatal failure which needs to be fixed for future gun sales, not

just ignored. Why should there be any regulation or background check otherwise? It's like allowing pedophiles near children because someone didn't check their background.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. System is no better than the data it has...

[lunatica]

30. So you think it can't be fixed?

[X_Digger]

31. If you were a danger to yourself and others, and nobody ever went before a judge..

.. to have you temporarily held- and you then climbed in your car and mowed someone down..

Is that a problem with driver's licenses, car manufacturers, the judge, or those around you who didn't report your imbalance to someone?

Loughner's case is a tough one- there was every indication that he was dangerously imbalanced, but his mother (who worked as a PD dispatcher) kept his actions 'under the radar'.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

32. There needs to be clear and universal reporting standards

Then they have to be enforced...

[COLGATE4]

3. K&R X 1000. The most intelligent posting yet on SYG. nt

[TheCowsCameHome]

4. Watch and see how these SYG laws become very unpopular.

This craziness is about to come to an end.

[LynneSin]

11. Maybe for half the country - there's alot of people cheering on George Zimmerman

and hope that he can get away with what he has done.

[gratuitous]

15. "Hope he can get away with" it?

From here, it looks like Zimmerman has gotten away with it. And, despite the mealy-mouth post hoc rationale being bleated by the laws authors and others, this is a totally foreseeable occurrence. Why did this occurrence (you should excuse the expression) backfire? When the law grants citizens the right to shoot others based on how scared they are, it doesn't take the imagination of H.P. Lovecraft to see how scared citizens are going to . . . shoot other citizens.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. Zimmerman has not walked...and I serious doubt he will.

Police tossed it to the prosecutors office, who brought in another prosecutor.
Prosecutor is taking it to the Grand Jury
Key data has not yet been released.
System is moving slowly (too slow IMO) but unless he checks himself out, he will see jail time.

[gratuitous]

26. I'll reserve judgment

My crystal ball is in the shop, and my powers of divination are greatly reduced. But from the facts ascertained so far, I think the worst Zimmerman might face is some kind of civil rights lawsuit. The police have reported that Zimmerman said the magic words required by the statute and let him go the night of the killing. The investigation has been botched from the get-go, the weapon apparently never left Zimmerman's possession, and reconstructing the evidence necessary to convict Zimmerman beyond a reasonable doubt has probably long since flown out the window.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. Have you read the excerpted police reports on the city website?

Its here: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

Though certainly not all of reports, it states (claims?) that the firearm was taken for evidence. It also says Zimmerman was taken into custody and his injuries were attended to.

What is making us all crazy is the very limited flow of facts and media's propensity to fill in the blanks with whatever will gain them the best audience. There should be a FD report and one from every officer who was on the scene. There should be pictures of the injuries. Eventually all of that and more should come out.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. So you support duty to retreat in all cases?

What about Castle Doctrine?

[Warren Stupidity]

14. No I was fine with castle defense.

There was no problem that needed fixing that extending castle defense theory to public spaces fixed. Instead what it did, as was predicted, was enable sociopaths to commit murder and get away with it. Combined with the infantile infatuation with Hollywood Cowboy Culture gun mythology, SYG is a manifest disaster.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. No one has been enabled...Zimmerman has not walked

[got root]

33. what do you think all the outrage is about? He walked, he was not arrested.

fyi

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. Its going to a Grand Jury, its no where near over.

[got root]

36. the point, professor, is that he walked away from a murder scene due to a fucked up law

time for a change in that misguided law, wouldn't you say?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

37. Not sure you have a prima facie case for that conclusion

- We know that the DA told the cops to kick him loose after being in custody. City is citing that direction in some forums
- Quality and depth of the police investigation is unknown (many assume it fatally flawed or worse)
- The bubba who wrote the law, the governor who signed it and others are saying it does not cover there circumstances. Some media pundits disagree
- About half the states have some version of no requirement for retreat without these kind of issues.

Reasonable expectation is tuning of "no duty to retreat" laws in multiple states, but no major reversals, going either direction.

No one I know is calling this a justified shooting.

[got root]

41. are you kidding? he was NOT arrested. nor was the murder weapon, nor scene secured for investigation

and why not, many ask, and TPTB respond with the SYG law.

sorry, that gross gun lobby law needs to GO.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

42. Published police reports disagree with some of what you stated

Then again, many of us are questioning those as well

[got root]

43. he was NOT arrested, nor was his gun taken as evidence, nor a crime scene established

for a murder investigation.

thats a real big problem, and it all hinges on the misguided SYG law.

[X_Digger]

45. Umm, you can see the crime scene tape in the Orlando news footage. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

46. Police report disagrees with you

and there is no cited source that supports your statements. Doesn't mean it did not go down as you assert, but there is nothing to support that.

This report from earlier: http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/sanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html

And this from the city: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

Per those sources (combined), A crime scene was established, his gun taken for evidence, and he was taken into custody.

It could all be a big lie, but given the scrutiny at this point I have a hard time believing that an officer would take that kind of risk for Zimmerman. Also the decision to kick him loose was made by the State Attorney (who has since recused himself).

[got root]

48. he was not arrested, nor was his gun or permit taken away, nor was there a homicide investigation

otherwise we wouldn't be discussing this, and he would be in jail, or out on bail (though usually rare in a murder case), with no access to his gun, nor a permit, awaiting a trial.

asking him some questions does not equal an arrest, nor does taking his gun away at the police station, where guns aren't permitted if you are not an officer, count as taking his gun away, nor his permit, since he is STILL in possession of both.

and there was no real homicide investigation, or he would not be walking the streets right now.

that is the problem, even though you may not see it that way.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. Assertion without reference...

Per the police report:
- The gun was taken into evidence. That is not the same as having secured while he was in the station.
- He was detained at gunpoint and later taken to the police station for questioning. Under the law that is the equivalent of being arrested. He may have been placed under arrest at one point.
- Since he is not charged, there is no mechanism to pull his CCW.
- I have found no substantive source that states his gun was returned to him.
- The nature of police investigation is unknown. Lots of noise about it from many sides. I too suspect it was weak. However, until more comes out, that is hard to really know.

You are making statements based on outrage without facts. Its a natural thing to do. However, rational heads need to prevail. Zimmerman will be going to jail, though later than some of us would like.

[MineralMan]

8. Fortunately, our Governor in Minnesota

vetoed the current legislature's version of this law, which was passed by both houses of the legislature. Sadly, our state gave control of both houses to the Republicans in the 2010 elections. Had we not managed to elect Mark Dayton as governor, this ALEC-inspired law would be in force here, too.

[LynneSin]

10. Personally the SYG laws violate the 14th Amendment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Its Due Process Clause prohibits state and local governments from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without certain steps being taken to ensure fairness. This clause has been used to make most of the Bill of Rights applicable to the states, as well as to recognize substantive and procedural rights.

Because of the law that the state of Florida created, Trayvon Martin has now been deprived of his life.

Zimmerman knew what he was doing and new that if he claimed that it was self-defense he might be able to avoid being arrested for murder.

When did the 2nd amendment become so much more important than the 14th amendment.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. Your argument is legally specious...

[hack89]

13. I think the SYG laws needed to be better defined and the ambiguity removed from them.

their are legitimate reasons for them but it is clear that there a serious unintended consequences that must be dealt with.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. No there is no clear need.

The existing laws were just fine. Outside your home the use of lethal force should be allowed only as a last resort, which was exactly where the existing laws put it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. Duty to retreat is not always a good thing...

Rewording the FL law will most likely happen, but I doubt they will reinstate duty to retreat

[TheCowsCameHome]

17. I seriously doubt Zimmerman and others would read the fine print

to some, it's just an excuse to do some "hunting".

edit: sp

[hack89]

18. There have to be laws defining self defense.

that doesn't make them magical shields that protect innocent people from harm.

If, after careful study, it is determined that the changes can be made that might save lives then make the changes.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. In that case would any law have stopped him?

[got root]

34. everyone already had a right to self-defense, the SYG laws are the product of the gun lobby

just like valentines day is the product of the candy co.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

39. Do you include Castle Doctrine, which has SYG aspects to it as well...

[got root]

40. exactly, they already have laws on the books for defending yourself, especially on your own property

the NEW SYG law is wrongheaded, created by the gun lobby, for $$$.

it needs to go.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

44. You do realize that about half the states have some form of no duty to retreat?

Are you opposed to all of them too, or just specific parts of the SYG law.

Are you aware that SYG does not change the basic standard for defensive use of deadly force?

In matters like these, specifics really matter...what are the specific changes you think need to be made? Articulate them.

Zimmerman is not going to get away with killing Martin. Clearly the process is going more slowly than many of us would like.

[got root]

47. the new laws introduced by the gun lobby in the past decade need to go.

the ones that allow the police and TPTB to cite them as a reason for letting this thug getting away with murder.

those need to be repealed, ASAP.

the current process is obviously broken because of the new laws which has forced the FEDs to get involved, and waste a lot of time, money, and energy on something that would normally be handled by a PROPER local homicide investigation, to clean up after the gun NUTs and their lobby.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. I'll take that as "I want to rant and can't be bothered with facts, details, or specifics"

Details are really important in this kind of thing. If you are unwilling or unable to deal with them, you are not part of the solution, no matter how passionate you feel about the matter.

Some of us don't believe that the Florida SYG is going to protect Zimmerman. However, that is for the courts to determine. If it does, its a travesty and needs to be changed. I expect there will be changes even if he is convicted, to make sure no similar idiot can try to claim coverage again. However, I do not expect "no duty to retreat" to go away in Florida or anywhere else.

It is also clear that Zimmerman's actions fail the standard set for defensive use of deadly force. He is going to jail, just not as fast as everyone I know wants.