It's let's humiliate women day :-)

[BBR Esq]

Let's Talk About Kim Novak



-snip-

So let’s say — just as a hypothetical for-instance — you are an 81-year-old star whose last movie was in 1991 and who hasn’t been to the Oscars in many a long year. Not that you were ever nominated for one in the first place; you were, after all, a sex symbol for most of your career. As the evening approaches, the anxiety sets in. Harsh lights, you think. High-definition cameras. And a public that remembers you chiefly as the ice goddess whose beauty once drove James Stewart to the brink of madness.

And even back then, when you were 25 years old, you worried constantly that no matter how you looked, it wasn’t good enough.

So a few weeks before the ceremony, you go to a doctor, and he says, “Relax honey. I have just the thing to make you fresh and dewy for the cameras.” 

And you go to the Oscars, so nervous you clutch your fellow presenter’s hand. And the next day, you wake up to a bunch of cheap goddamn shots about your face. 

Nice system we got here, isn’t it.

More: http://selfstyledsiren.blogspot.com/2014/03/lets-talk-about-kim-novak.html

[gollygee]

1. Women in the media have a hard time aging no matter how they handle it

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/03/03/kim_novak_liza_minnelli_and_june_squibb_at_the_oscars_how_hollywood_treats.html

So how ought an actress age? Throughout the evening, 67-year-old Sally Field (who appeared as a presenter) and 64-year-old Meryl Streep (nominated for August: Osage County) were compared favorably to Minnelli and Novak for daring to age “gracefully” and “naturally.” But we don’t know what Streep and Field do to maintain their looks—all we know is that they have successfully navigated Hollywood’s dual requirement to look amazing post-60 while never signaling that they’ve worked at it. That means avoiding obvious plastic surgery, but it can also mean spending your life investing in the habits, trainers, diets, creams, and treatments that add up to a “natural” look in old age. (Dodging illness and disability—Novak survived breast cancer in 2010—surely doesn’t hurt.)

[Demeter]

16. You think it's so easy for women NOT in the media?

When you are a commodity, you have a shelf life. When you are a human commodity, whose market value fluctuates with fashion and supply, that shelf life keeps moving so that after 25 (at best), it's all over anyway.

Which is why the Women's Movement will never go away. We have to figure out what to do with those remaining 75 years to maximize our self-worth, happiness, wealth, etc.

[gollygee]

31. Didn't say that

I was just specifically talking about women in the media.

[tavalon]

64. You are right and I think we women can counter that. Decline societies definitions of us.

I turned 50 last year. I had noticed for a few years that people weren't talking to my boobs and that they were listening to what I had to say. About 6 months before that, my husband of 12 years decided we weren't working and I decided he wasn't going to make that decision. I left him and have made the decision to remain single. It's a gift I'm giving myself. When I look in the mirror, I no longer see my mother, who died when she was 36, but now I see her mother, a woman who chose to raise me in my teenage years. I miss them both but I remember more clearly the laugh lines and glint in my grandmother's eyes. I feel peaceful when I see I'm beginning to look like her. It felt for a while that I had no identity except being older than my mother was when she died. Now, I see Gram. I really like that. I loved them both muchly and I love to see them shining through my eyes.

When I was 29, I had a boob job, ostensibly so that I would look nicer in clothes but then who was I really doing that for? Now, at 50, I have encapsulated implants and can't get mammograms because they would burst and I would have to have emergency surgery. My doctors are badgering me and rightly so, to just get the mammogram and hope for the best. I've come up with a better solution. I've found the best breast reconstruction doctor in town and I'm going to have them removed. For me. On my schedule and then I'll get a yearly mammogram without fear. No, I'm not having them replaced with saline. I'm just going to have these removed. I guess my breasts will sag a bit. Boo fucking hoo.

So society tells me that I should be a sad middle aged woman, obsessing about my aging skin, alone in this world, destined to die alone and unloved. Except I am loved. By me. By my son. By my friends. So once again, I decline to take the offered choice. I choose now. I wish I had had that self love and self respect when I was younger. So many decisions I would have made differently.

As well, society made it clear I needed a breadwinner. Except that as a unionized nurse, I'm doing fine. I don't need someone elses money. I'll never be rich but I never cared about that anyway.

Thank you society for your input (not) but I decline.

[seabeyond]

68. what an astounding heart filled... celebratory awesome post. lol. you go, woman.

and right on. perfectly said and felt in all ways, lol

[Drew Richards]

100. May I just say, I think you are a beautiful woman...wonderful story of true empowerment.

[bravenak]

101. Hell yeah!

[Spazito]

107. I LOVE this post!

Very moving, very beautiful and powerful statements.

Thank you for sharing this, it has moved me very much. I feel as you do, "Thank you society for your input (not) but I decline."

[niyad]

108. would you consider posting this as its own OP so that we can rec it??

[Tuesday Afternoon]

122. Best Post Of The Year. I don't care if it is just March. Tavalon! Testify!

[fasttense]

41. When you turn 50 as a woman, you become invisible

If you don't look like a hotty, with perky boobs and perfectly unwrinkled skin, a tight neck and perfect complexion, no one pays any attention to you. Oh and don't forget to get those teeth whitened to so that your smile sets off a glare. Let a hot 20 year old walk into a crowded room and people notice. Let an over 50 woman walk in and no one notices. Women who do plastic surgery are just trying to become visible again.

And if you really wanted to spy on people, you simply have to look like you are an over 50 woman.

[JNelson6563]

48. It's like losing a special power, I think.

Let's face it, beautiful people have a special power. They are noticed, they are acknowledged and they are treated a little differently. Different types of beauty fade at different rates. When one loses that power of being one of the beautiful people it can go badly.

Some over-do it with surgery and what-have-you, some do nothing because they don't care and some do care very much but do nothing (one can look younger, as in healthy, with diet & exercise) and get rather bitter about it. I often wonder what the bitter ones felt about society's standards of beauty being applied to those who have no period in their life when they are attractive, while they were enjoying their beautiful people years.

Julie

[fasttense]

99. Yeah, I was kind of thinking that

As a woman ages she loses that attention getter but I have found a few things to enjoy about getting old.

Like not constantly cycling from one hormone induced fit to another. Now, some women probably don't, or didn't, get those huge mood swings like I got, but now that the mood swings are gone, I feel more rational and more intelligent. And you do have that secret weapon of being almost invisible so that you can listen in and observe without affecting what or whom you are observing. And for some reason I can smell and taste better, though my hearing is worse.

[tavalon]

66. That's one of my favorite parts about being 50

That and the absurd red hat I'm working on. It's hilarious.

I enjoy being alone almost too much. I'm going to make an effort in the next year to do some animal shelter volunteer work so I socialize a bit outside of work.

[AgingAmerican]

88. Welcome to aging

Both men and women experience it. Some handle it well and others don't, but it is a normal part of life. At some point we just have to hold our chin up and move gracefully into the next phase of our life.

"What a drag it is getting old"

[11 Bravo]

102. I've been married to the same woman for more than a couple of decades. She's well over 50, and ...

the day she becomes invisible to me will be the day my eyes close for the last time.
She's had no boob job ...no cosmetic surgery ... ...no dental whitening. And if the entire bevy of this year's Victoria's Secret models were to walk into a room with us, I would still be looking at her.

[Demeter]

104. You are a pearl among men

There used to be a lot more of your kind...but the Boomer generation lost the connection between the sexes that the WWII generation had.

[fasttense]

118. Love is blind. n/t

[Skittles]

113. who cares?

why is the attention of superficial assholes ANY kind of measurement of self-esteem???

[fasttense]

119. It's like being that kid in high school that everyone called a nasty name.

Every time his classmates saw him they called him that obscene name. The kid knew it didn't matter, it was just a name and the classmates were idiots anyway. The kid pretended not to even hear it most of the time. But do you really think it didn't hurt the kid?

Now I agree we are talking about grown women here but it can get difficult to keep your spirits up when you live among idiots who judge you as inferior for daring to get old.

[Skittles]

121. I know I am an outlier but

I *NEVER* measured my self-esteem based on how many guys found me worthy - learn to enjoy your own company to "keep your spirits up"

I would not want to be the "hot 20 year old" I was again - I much more value the experience I have now!

[seabeyond]

2. thank you bbr and gollygee for the two perspectives. it is sad. i really think, so sad. nt

[BBR Esq]

4. That THIS guy would criticize anyone's looks...

[seabeyond]

5. oh goddess, i so know. i mean. i see the ugliest criticizing women. and i really do not

care about ugly and not, but always find it mouth droppin when ugly criticizes attractive. or fat criticizes anothers body.

and again, i cannot stress how i do not care. it is the guts to dare to criticize that gets me.

[SunSeeker]

45. Yup. Like Rush Limbaugh saying Michelle Obama has a big butt.

[seabeyond]

51. yes. and these men have gotta know what fools they sound. and they do not care. they gotta know..

every woman in the WORLD is saying.... eeeeew.

[3catwoman3]

57. I would rather HAVE a ...

...big butt than BE a big ass.

[JustAnotherGen]

3. I thought the whole thing was rather sad

During and then the commentary after. And I now tend to think that Mr. Alright, Alright, Alright has a deep kindness in him. He went with it - and he saw that panic and uncomfortable in her eyes.

Not sure if anyone is aware but she's also bi-polar - what the Hollywood system did to women who had a 'weakness' in them was horrific.

[BBR Esq]

6. Used the insecure ones and destroyed them.

Look at the women on the morning news. Is there any doubt that they have to dress provocatively to keep their jobs?

[Eleanors38]

7. Hollywood stinks of "Dirty Laundry." Some like to sniff it.

[WhiteTara]

8. How wonderful that we've got it down to one day!

This is just another day in paradise....women are dissed for trying, not trying, looking good, not looking good and for just being alive.

But Welcome to DU newbie! BBR Esq

[BBR Esq]

9. Thank you.

[WhiteTara]

11. See you around! This is a great

site and filled with interesting and thought provoking materials. again.

[BBR Esq]

14. Thanks again.

back.

[sibelian]

10. I think women are treated dreadfully by Hollywood.

Only women with what we seem to call "really steely characters" seem to get roles that aren't socially useless representations of women. And then they become these great big DIIIIIVAs, apparently.

I remember watching an interview with Bette Davis struggling to match up what she was actually saying with the hard-nosed image she had and as far as I could tell she was in many ways rather an ordinary, sensible lady talking ordinary common sense while happening to be an actress and everyone was gasping with total RESPEEEEECT, MA'AM.

I'm sure she could see through it. But there we are, that could just be projection on my part, I guess.

[BBR Esq]

13. Some people are better at hiding their insecurities.

[sufrommich]

12. Uh,it makes me sick just reading that.

Kim Novak is a gentle soul,I hope the assholes mocking her will someday realize what true ugliness is and see themselves for what they are.

[raven mad]

15. Thank you. Thank you, sufrommich. Thank you.

I wanted to hear this, but didn't know how to say it. The whole zoo (what little I saw) was just that, a zoo. My husband, who IS a feminist - told me about the humiliation heaped on Ms. Novak. He was sick about it. I am, too - and probably am off movies for another 10 years.

[marble falls]

23. I agree. Why were people so gleefully sniping about her? Very dissappointed with them, so glad to...

her again.

[sufrommich]

32. I take note that when Kirk Douglas,who's

obviously had extensive plastic surgery,was given an award at the 2008 Academy Awards, not a word was said about his looks.

[redqueen]

36. It's amazing that some people still manage to think that men face the same pressures,

scrutiny, etc. as women.

[sufrommich]

37. Yep. nt

[tavalon]

70. Actually, they face different pressures

Of course, I'm a feminist but I'm also a humanist and I think the first world societies place constraints on both women and men. I'm quite enjoying telling the world to fuck off. Great Goddess, I wish I had had this peace and strength and just plain common sense when I was a baby (20s).

[seabeyond]

86. are you kidding. and if sex DEFINING men and all of who they are is not restrictive, i do not know

what is, lol. they have to be their sexual prowess into forties and that is when so many hit the wall, crash and burn.

[tavalon]

111. And there is still the "money defines the man"

Society hasn't figured out that the little woman can often take care of herself. I caveat that some because, despite the changes, women still frequently make less, whether because of career choice or just income non-parity. Ever notice how most of the female dominated career areas make piddly wages? Heck, one of the hidden reasons the American Nurses Association was/is pushing for men to enter my field is to raise wages in nursing. Kinda sad, huh?

[redqueen]

97. Oh yes, I was just referring to appearance.

I should have been more specific that I was referring to the context of this thread.

[WinkyDink]

17. Then beauty is its own excuse for being (RWEmerson):

[EC]

18. And not one word

about John Travolta's face. Not one.

I thought Kim looked fine, a bit puffy, but fine. I'm glad Matthew was there to help her, he's such a gentle, gentleman.

[seabeyond]

20. matthew who? not that i watched or know any of the characters. but i LOVE when i can applaud

goodness, especially a man in these situations stepping up.

[EC]

21. Matthew McConaughey.. n/t

[seabeyond]

25. no way. lol. i thought might be him, he is real vain, but i have also seen that in him. story

so i am not surprised either.

he lives in my town. my oldest tp'ed his house this summer. lol. so we get a little of him in our area. he seems to be a very community oriented, good guy.

thanks. and yea matthew.

[tavalon]

71. So, he stayed in Texas

I figured he left after he left Sandra Bullock or she left him or somesuch. I don't keep up with things of that nature.

[seabeyond]

77. he moved to amarillo. lol. might have a place in austin... do not know. nt

[JaneyVee]

22. Matthew McConneghy

Good dude.

[seabeyond]

27. thank you. was telling the poster above. he lives in our town.

very receptive to the here and community oriented.

[JustAnotherGen]

24. He was just lovely to her

And about it seabeyond.

[seabeyond]

26. ahhhhh. i LUV. that is the best. really. man... makes me love the guy more. nt

[niyad]

38. forget his face. what about that HAIR??? and it sounded like he stumbled over the name of the

person he was introducing.

[EC]

49. yeah, he did get hit on the pronunciation of the name

but not one word about his face being botoxed.

[bigwillq]

56. Travolta looks awful. So does Novak.

But it's their face to live with. And my mouth to make fun of them with.

I don't get why people keep getting surgery; they all end up looking awful.

[Logical]

59. I thought the comments and tweets were so mean? WTF is wrong....

With people?

[treestar]

75. Yeah they don't start on the men

though it does seem they get the surgery too, in Hollywood. Not claiming it's equally bad, but it has spread to them.

[Arugula Latte]

103. Nor about John Travolta's vampire wig fake hair

In real life he's a bit more George Costanza:

[blackspade]

19. I can only hope at 81, I look that good

surgery or not.

Fuck these commentators and the Cohn they rode in on....

[winter is coming]

30. I'd rather look like I'm 81.

I find the "my face doesn't move" look creepy and far more noticeable than the sags and wrinkles that come with age.

[blackspade]

39. You missed my point entirely....

The fact she would feel the need to go to those extremes in the first place is a sad commentary on the ideas of beauty that permeate our society.

She wouldn't have caught a break if she had gone the au natural route either and looked her age.

[bullsnarfle]

42. Agreed.

Every time I look at John Kerry lately I think, "OMG, dude, why?"...his new 'face' reminds me of Odo from DS Nine.
I think he looked just great 'rugged and mature'.

[BBR Esq]

54. Or this guy.

[tavalon]

76. Damn it, put warning labels

I have no desire to see Guvna fuck up.

[treestar]

78. Totally agree, usually the surgery makes them look

old too, just in a creepier way. So far, the science of plastic surgery doesn't really seem to work for its intended purpose, at least, doesn't after some particular age.

[Cleita]

52. Agreed. Old age doesn't mean you can't aspire to look

the best you can at your age. She still has that smokey, sexy voice. It wasn't just her face that made men and probably some women fall in love with her.

[Whisp]

28. Kim has more class in one hair on her head than those

mean spirited assholes.

I hope she will be okay and her friends help her get over this horrid thing.

Women are Always being judged on looks - throughout out whole lives. It's a terrible thing to have to live with.

[Bluenorthwest]

29. Kim Novak is a fellow Oregonian, her film work was wonderful and I like her paintings

as well. She's aces in my book. Some of her art can be seen at the link.
http://www.examiner.com/slideshow/kim-novak-s-artwork-at-old-mint#slide=1

[frogmarch]

58. Wow, she is

a talented artist! Until I read the OP article I didn't know she could paint, and now that I've seen a couple of her paintings, I'm very impressed.

[Brainstormy]

33. Unfortunately it's often women themselves

dishing out the cheap shots. I recall reading recently where one wrote that Racquet Welch, being so old, shouldn't wear red. But I hate the Oscars and all the superficial emphasis on what women wore and how they looked.

[boston bean]

34. If you are interested.. you may want to read this:

FAQ: What is “internalized sexism”?

Posted by tekanji on October 20, 2007 in clarifying-concepts, FAQ, sexism


Short definition: Internalized sexism is the involuntary internalization by women of the sexist messages that are present in their societies and culture. It also the way in which women reinforce sexism by utilizing and relaying sexist messages that they’ve internalized.

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/20/internalized-sexism/

[mrchips]

35. Pinatas

Everyone on that stage becomes a piñata. It's a horrible ritual.

[niyad]

40. let's see- she is an actress, a poet, a photographer, an artist who paints, sculpts and works in

glass. she has been married to the same man for nearly 38 years, is bipolar and a breast cancer survivor. and people have the nerve to criticize her--wow, just. . .wow.

[sufrommich]

43. Well said. nt

[Beacool]

44. Thanks for the info.

Other than the actress part, I didn't know all these other items. She seems like an accomplished woman.

[niyad]

50. you are welcome. she is indeed a most accomplished woman. one of the posts above links to

some of her art.

[seabeyond]

60. i did not know all that stuff. nor really know anything about her. and wow. and ya. i hear ya. nt

[RobinA]

92. I Find It Sad

that with all these accomplishments she still feels it necessary to try to look like she's 30.

[Skittles]

112. agreed

[SunSeeker]

46. K & R

[randome]

47. Not sure I understand the dismay here.

She went to a lot of trouble to make her face pretty and some pundits didn't agree it worked?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]

[leftyladyfrommo]

53. What's really sad is that women feel like they can't just look 81.

I look at some of the Hollywood women who are over say 40 and they all are trying to stay looking like they did when they were 20 something. And when you are 50 and trying to look 20 it just looks weird. They don't look 20. They just look like they have had a lot of work done.

I understand. It's hard to look in the mirror and see yourself with a 65 year old face when you still feel 35. I do it every day. I think about getting some botox to make my eyes look better. And then I just kind of blow it off. I'm 65. I deal with it. I try to be nice to myself. I'm still a nice person. I'm still funny.

I like Grace Slick. She looks her age. Gray hair pulled back in a bun. And I read that she does acid and paints pictures. Good for her.

Kim Novak is a wonderful person. I don't care what she looks like. She is beautiful.

[AgingAmerican]

55. Many can

...and many can't. Everyone is different and everyone has a right to feel the way they wish.

[leftyladyfrommo]

61. I wonder how the women who had botched jobs feel?

Like Priscilla Presley who had work done by a con artist. The results were awful. The results of a lot of those Hollywood women have been awful. But there are no jobs in Hollywood for even middle aged women let alone older women.

They are just taking such a risk. And paying a huge amount of money for it.

And in all fairness a lot of men who are actors and singers have done the same thing and have had horrible results, too. And they all say they just wish they had never had anything done. That it was a huge mistake.

[AgingAmerican]

65. I agree

But that is part of the risk when you go to that extreme. It sucks, but that is what certain people are willing to do to hold onto bits of their youth. My wife is 55 and gets botox injections. Not to the point of having a rubber face, but just a little in a couple of spots. I see her as flawless, but she sees this vague wrinkle in the center of her forehead and on the corners of her eyes.

To be fair, I have my own version of what she does. I work out in the gym and do tons of situps and stuff. My wife likes it, so I guess that's really all that matters.

[Cleita]

89. Most face lifts take six to eight hours.

There is at least a month recuperation. Anyone who believes those ads that claim you can go in to get surgery on the weekend and be back at work on Monday will get a bad job. I don't know what happened to Presley or Michael Jqckson for that matter but those docs should have their licenses revoked at the very least.

[seabeyond]

62. i was thinkin' about this thread. i am bone weary tired of the role of being attractive

for a WORLD of men. it isnt even about the individual but the role expected. and for a lifetime? just not gonna happen. too much time with it as i was.....

[AgingAmerican]

67. Some women just don't care

..and some do. It's an individual choice. I always had a lot of respect for Katherine Hepburn when she got really old and very wrinkled and she was fine with it. There is a lot to respect about aging gracefully.

[seabeyond]

69. you do not know wtf you are talking about. a man lecturing me on this. you really

do not know wtf you are talking about. that simple. you have totally misread my post and defined it as you want to. nope....

[AgingAmerican]

79. lol

you are a real piece of work.

I just said that it is very respectable to age gracefully and you fly off the handle. Ooooh a MAAAN said it. You have issues.

[leftyladyfrommo]

72. It would be hard to have aged prematurely.

I've seen some women who are in their 30's and look much older. That would be tough. I would be a lot more likely to get stuff done - maybe just a little here and there - if that were the case.

I have a good friend who is just in her early 50's and she has really deep lines in her face. She has been through too much pain and it shows.

Maybe we should all just wear bags over our heads and be done with it. That would completely even the playing field.

[seabeyond]

80. "Maybe we should all just wear bags over our heads".... or, just give all us "done with it"

souls huge hugs in the passing in love, and freedom, hapiness and .... life.

wont that be fun for the next three decades.

ah, high five here and there, fist bump, but done with the chest thumping, lol.

[AgingAmerican]

81. Or maybe we should age gracefully

Some do, some dont.

[Cleita]

94. A lot of young women also age prematurely from too much sun tanning.

Keeping out of direct sunlight wearing sun hats and sunscreen will go miles in preventing premature aging.

[Cleita]

73. Maybe that's the problem. You are making yourself attractive for men

instead to feel better about yourself.

[seabeyond]

82. no. that is not "the" or "a" problem.

[AgingAmerican]

83. I believe

You have hit on the crux of the problem. Thanks for that.

[tavalon]

84. Amen!

I was one of the pretty people (it's genes. My mother was model material) except I have a big nose. I obsessed over that nose but luckily I didn't go there. I saw other pretty people grasping at staying young looking. I could see it was a shell game and as I learned to value myself, I decided to leave looks out of the equation. Thank goodness for that. My life just get's happier and easier all the time. I'm annoyed at myself for not exercising this winter (pacific northwest - little light) but not because I gained a bit but because having a strong body will keep me from breaking any more bones. And keep the one I broke last year supple. That's the sort of things I concentrate on these days.

I'm also enjoying the reflective aspect of this time. I may have started early but beginning the work of placing my whole life into a context is really interesting. The nursing textbooks say I'm taking up a task that usually occurs in the elderly. But whatever. It's interesting.

[seabeyond]

85. i think our generation got to watch mothers and fathers walk this....

really for the first time in this obsessiveness and saw so much yukky, damaging, hurtful behavior. and being reflective, and having women discuss it over the last decade, gave us women a wonderful starting point. abso fuckin lutely. and i do not think i have been able to put it together until you post.

hence the other two replying, show me the so do not get it. not talking about what they are talking about. talking about MEN (and especially the last couple years of MILF and porn(always presenting women as sexual things and they looking)) being taught that our sole role is to be attractive for men. our role as girls our sole purpose of being attractive for ALL men. our duty. responsibility, lmao. and walking on stage every single fuckin day and presenting ourselves. now, i exaggerate, but only some, to get message across.

[RobinA]

87. So Reject

the role. It's a choice.

[seabeyond]

90. true. ok. so? nt

[leftyladyfrommo]

105. I don't think it's all that easy to reject that role.

It's so ingrained from the time we are just little girls. And obviously from a lot of the posts on this forum it is obvious that a lot of the younger women feel a lot of pressure to look "hot." And they think they enjoy that role. Get all dressed and go party with the guys and all that stuff. It's just so boring.

Ihave said this before but it wasn't until I just lost all interest in men that I was able to dump that role. I just don't care what men think any more. I still kind of care what my women friends think about how I look but I'm working on getting over that. So do I really care if my best friend doesn't like the way I'm wearing my hair longer now? No. I really don't.

I still wear some makeup every day but it's because I have my own business and I just feel better if I'm cleaned up a little. I don't do it really to impress anyone. I'm older. Everyone knows it. But when I go talk to new customers I kind of like to look like I take some pride in my appearance.

[seabeyond]

106. " so ingrained from the time we are just little girls." that it is. and why i think it is so

important for us to talk about it out loud. and often. to both, our boys and girls. so they can truly understand the demand our society (unrealistic and harsh demand) is placing on our girls. so both genders see it for what it is.

[leftyladyfrommo]

114. Good luck getting the men to look at it.

I say that but it seems to be equally difficult to get young women to look at it either. The answer I get a lot is that the women's movement was all about sexual freedom. It's pretty hard to see that it wasn't freedom at all. It's a very ingrained form of slavery.

[seabeyond]

115. i think, with the constant pornification of our girls, all women that walk into public, it is

becoming clear and troublesome for many women. and ya... the boys may be being dragged behind, but i think i see our young guys getting it too. it does not behove them anymore than the girls. only different ways. but ultimately destructive for both.

our new, fourth wave feminism of young women are very consistent, loud, forceful, tenacious about this issue, which gives me hope.

[leftyladyfrommo]

117. I think I'm an old fogy

but I just hate, hate to see this sexual objectification of even little girls. I can't believe the outfits their mothers are putting on them.

Where the hell is that coming from? It's awful.

[RobinA]

120. Received Dogma

should always be questioned. By everyone. I think you give "society" too much power here.

[Sheldon Cooper]

93. I don't think you are taking into account the career pressure placed on these

women to look 20. It's all well and good to look your age, but books have been written and movies made about the fate that befalls an actress when she dares to age naturally. Unless you are Meryl Streep, your agent is going to stop taking your calls.

THAT is what's effed up about this, not some vain desire to stay young. It's a monetary issue, not vanity.

[Cleita]

96. Even Meryl Streep has had work. She admits it.

Shes also said that roles are harder to come by at her age because not many scripts are about older women. So imagine how much harder it is for aging actresses not in her league.

[niyad]

109. in "the first wives club", goldie hawn's character, an actress who has just had collagen injections

in her lips (the old expression "bee-stung" comes to mind), explains why she keeps having all the work done: "there are three stages for women in hollywood: babe, district attorney, and driving miss daisy". sad, but quite accurate, it seems.

[Sheldon Cooper]

110. Yep.

And Olivia Goldsmith, the woman who wrote the book First Wives Club, died of complications from plastic surgery. Irony.

[Capt. Obvious]

63. I loved her as Stifler's mom

[MineralMan]

116. That wasn't Kim Novak.

That was Jennifer Coolidge.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0177639/

[Heidi]

74. Kick!

[Tikki]

91. My 11 y.o. grandson asked, "Who is that?"..I answered "That is a photo of me when I was a teenager."

He hugged me and said, "Oh, grandma, I love you."

Nothing more needed to be said, but we did. This was a chance to talk about aging...physical aging.

He came out of the conversation with some thoughts I hope he will hold on to, forever.


Tikki

[Sarah Ibarruri]

95. I find it very sad. She loves to paint elderly folks...

and yet she herself had so much plastic surgery that she's unrecognizable.

This country desperately needs to stop the photoshoping of models and movie stars, stop the obsession with plastic surgery and implanted white-as-snow teeth, the obsession with needing to look 20 at 80, and that can only come when we start respecting the elderly again. This is one hellishly sad society, really.

[longship]

98. I'd rather celebrate a rather gifted, wonderful person.