Scientists: Test West Coast for Fukushima radiation

[pintobean]

SALEM, Ore. -- Very low levels of radiation from the Fukushima nuclear disaster likely will reach ocean waters along the U.S. West Coast next month, scientists are reporting.

Current models predict that the radiation will be at extremely low levels that won't harm humans or the environment, said Ken Buesseler, a chemical oceanographer at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution who presented research on the issue last week.

But Buesseler and other scientists are calling for more monitoring. No federal agency currently samples Pacific Coast seawater for radiation, he said.

"I'm not trying to be alarmist," Buesseler said. "We can make predictions, we can do models. But unless you have results, how will we know it's safe?"

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/03/09/scientists-test-west-coast-for-fukushima-radiation/6213849/

[Faux pas]

1. I live on the Oregon coast

been taking iodine since Fukushima. We'll see if it works if I'm the last one standing.

[Brother Buzz]

4. I'll assume you haven't contracted goiter

Are you experiencing any of the side effects from long-term use of Potassium iodide?

[flamingdem]

8. Potassium iodide is only for a worst case scenario for airborne iodine-133

Some people need to supplement with regular iodine and if you want a protective effect for your thyroid you can take a tad extra but...

sorry to say to the user of iodine - that won't work for cesium-134 etc - so for that it's best to wash vegetables carefully and if you drink milk try to get it from out of state or at least get low fat since there's less cesium in that...

[CrispyQ]

9. Drink miso soup, too.

I love the stuff. I drink it every day in the winter. Don't boil it, it kills the beneficial enzymes. I like brown rice miso. Recently I have seen some boutique brands of miso that are very expensive but I still like this brand the best:

https://great-eastern-sun.com/shop/miso-master-


Research on miso:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3695331/

[PearliePoo2]

17. I didn't click on your links but...

I assume your miso is not sourced from Japan?

[longship]

37. Like soup helps cure radiation sickness?

Not that there is a radiation danger in the USA from Fukushima -- Hint: there isn't.

But one thing we can be certain of, if there was a danger, soup isn't going to solve the problem.

Sorry.

[RobertEarl]

75. There is no immediate danger

We were dosed almost 3 years ago so that immediate danger has passed, and the stuff coming from the Pacific waters has not yet filled the ocean from coast to coast - but what sampling has occurred shows it gaining - so there is no immediate danger there, either.

But in the long run? Well, there are another 400+ ticking time bomb Fukushima types ticking away.

[whopis01]

77. When the source is radioactive iodine it does

Iodine is commonly used to help protect the thyroid and other organs from radiation sickness. Consuming more stable iodine helps the body avoid absorbing radioactive iodine. Miso soup happens to be very high in iodine content and has been shown to help protect against radiation exposure.

[longship]

11. The half life of iodine 131 is very short.

So what you are doing is totally unnecessary. By the time the stuff arrives from its 5,000 mile voyage from Japan all the I-131 is all decayed to insignificance. Plus, the concentration of isotopes from Japan would be so dilute it would not be an issue even if the half life was longer.

I-131 has a half life of eight days.

In other words: Don't worry about it.

[Yo_Mama]

16. You don't need to take potassium iodide, and you may make yourself sick doing it

Taking iodine is done to prevent the uptake of I-131, and all of that was gone years ago. Really a couple weeks after the explosions. Plus concentrations on the West Coast were never at levels warranting it.

http://emergency.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp

Specific things to watch for:
http://www.drugs.com/sfx/potassium-iodide-side-effects.html

[PearliePoo2]

18. Read all the posts replying to your intake of iodine.

There's some good and accurate info being posted.
Take heed and please stop taking that stuff.

[SidDithers]

62. "been taking iodine since Fukushima". Why?...nt

Sid

[Bluenorthwest]

92. That's not very wise, as many have told you already. The State of Oregon regularly

tests air, water and sand at several locations on the Coast. The fact that you are taking worthless and potentially harmful treatment but are unaware of the testing going on right in your own area is startling.

[reddread]

2. so many opportunities for normal accidents/disasters

http://fairewinds.org/media/fairewinds-videos/whats-leaking-nuclear-waste-isolation-pilot-program

[flamingdem]

10. Arnie Gundersen is the best on this issue

You will see him attacked often at DU but he is an engineer with great expertise in Nuclear Energy

[longship]

13. I don't think he's very credible.

There is a reason why what he says is being attacked, and not just on DU. It's because he's making stuff up.

So he's got that going for him.

I prefer to pay attention to the scientists making the actual measurements.

I agree with the OP. We need to keep up on this, but it is not likely a big issue. Meanwhile, Gundersen continues his fear mongering, which is what he does. He has no credibility.

[Octafish]

21. What has he made up?

It's important to know.

[zappaman]

29. He has made up lots of things

here are some examples...let me know if you actually read them.

http://atomicinsights.com/arnie-gundersen-caught-on-video-lying-about-risk-of-radiation-released-during-fukushima-event/

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Arnold_Gundersen

I can get plenty more since there are 53,800 results for "arnie gunderson lies".
But, if you want to see the other 53,798, you should look yourself since I am off to enjoy the sunshine with a bike ride on the beach.

See you later my friend!

[Octafish]

31. Did you mix up your login? From your, uh, source...

About Atomic Insights

Rod Adams May 2011
Resume available here.

Publisher: Rod Adams – Pro-nuclear advocate with extensive small nuclear plant operating experience. Former Engineer Officer, USS Von Steuben. Founder, Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. Host and producer, The Atomic Show Podcast. You can subscribe to The Atomic Show RSS feed.

CONTINUED...

http://atomicinsights.com/about/

Interesting. The guy works for the government and atomic industry.

[Union Scribe]

35. So you dismiss the guy with actual credentials

I guess the only people worth listening to about nuclear power are people who haven't been near it in 40 years and have no training in commercial power production?

[Octafish]

38. I'd rather listen to somebody who doesn't have a stake in the game.

The guy zappaman wants to use to discover my ISP address has a stake in the game.

[Union Scribe]

40. Then stop listening to Arnie

because he's paid about 300 an hour for his work. You'd rather listen to him because you agree with him. I'm telling you to parse your sources better.

[Octafish]

43. $300 an hour?

Is that scale?

[Union Scribe]

44. What does that matter? He's got "skin in the game"

And by your standard you can't trust anyone with a financial motive right?

You're going to have to accept that anyone who spends enough time to be an expert in a field, particularly a technical field, will expect to be paid for that. Even if they're just pretending at expertise, which if anything is far less ethical than having an honest job in an industry.

[Octafish]

46. Gunderson's not on TEPCO's payroll.

To me, that's much better than someone who is.

Take TEPCO Rose. She's in public relations. Yet, she's on the payroll to make people believe TEPCO gives a damn. From a prior OP:

This nice Lady Barbara Judge, a former SEC lawyer and now UK regulator extraordinaire, wants to keep the world safe for nuclear power.



The mood at Fukushima Daiichi is "fantastic."

Lady Barbara Judge: Japan's smart nuclear weapon

The head of the UK's Pension Protection Fund has been drafted in to help assure the residents of Fukushima that its reactors are safe

MARGARETA PAGANO
The Independent (UK) SUNDAY 17 FEBRUARY 2013

Lady Barbara Judge is just back from inspecting the nuclear plants at Fukushima in Japan, the ones closed down after the devastating earthquake and tsunami two years ago. She visited the control rooms at Daiichi – plant one – where three of the reactors went into meltdown and met many of the men who risked their lives by working during the emergency to cool the over-heated reactors and eventually shut them down.

It's not what she expected but the mood there was " fantastic". "What was astonishing was the optimism and hope shown by the workers that these plants can be made safe, and that they can start operating again," she says. But this was in stark contrast to the mood of the Japanese public, still in a state of shock and strongly opposed to the restoration of the nuclear programme.

Already being hailed as Japan's nuclear saviour, Lady Judge was in Fukushima with the bosses of the plants' owner, Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco), which was criticised for its bungled reaction to the catastrophe. It's her first trip since being appointed deputy chairman of Tepco's new Nuclear Reform Monitoring Committee, set up after the disaster to propose a new self-regulatory structure for the industry. If all goes well, Tepco hopes to persuade the new government – said to be more favourable than the last – to restart two of the plants later this year.

SNIP...

It's her long experience of Britain's nuclear industry that attracted the Japanese, who rarely bring in outsiders, let alone a woman. Lady Judge's credentials go back to 2002 when she became a director of the UK's Atomic Energy Authority, and was then chairman for six years until 2010. She is still closely involved with the industry so, a few days after returning from Fukushima, was able to take Tepco executives to the West Midlands' Oldbury site to show how it has been decommissioned using the strictest safety protocols.

SNIP...

Yet there's one group of people who stay stubbornly anti-nuclear – women, especially the more educated ones. Wherever you are in the world, she says, all the focus groups show that it's better-off women who don't trust fission.

CONTINUED...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/lady-barbara-judge-japans-smart-nuclear-weapon-8497747.html

It seems that government service in the United States can open doors to [s]money[/s] opportunity in the United Kingdom. From the comment section at e-news we learn:

weeman
February 17, 2013 at 10:29 am

Tokyo Rose I have named her, just like the second world war the propaganda machine is on full spin cycle and we all know the false lies that they promote and brainwashing of populace.

...

Time Is Short
February 18, 2013 at 2:09 pm

Here's a big reason she was brought in:

'Radioactive Asia: There Will Be 100 Additional Nuclear Reactors in Asia in 20 Years'

http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2013/02/radioactive-asia-there-will-be-100.html

If she's working for those that control the majority of the uranium mining/processing, you can see the money involved.

Can't let the murder of 8 billion people get in the way of third-quarter profits, can we?

...

Sickputer
February 16, 2013 at 9:20 pm

Her track record has not always been so cheery:

April 23, 2010

"WASHINGTON—Massey Energy Co., owner of a coal mine where 29 workers were killed this month, on Monday said that the board member responsible for governance had resigned because of the demands of "other ongoing business activities."

Lady Barbara Thomas Judge's resignation, effective immediately, comes amid growing criticism of the management of the Richmond, Virginia, company. For months, shareholders had complained that Lady Judge was unable to devote enough time to the job because she served on too many corporate boards. The complaints about Massey's corporate governance intensified after a coal-mine explosion two weeks ago that was the deadliest in 40 years."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703757504575195070711065984.html

Another article in 2007:

"But questions remain. Why does Lady Judge need so many jobs? How did she land her role at the UK Atomic Energy Authority, when she had no relevant experience? Is it relevant that a female friend was on the selection panel?
Lady Judge bristles. She points out that, as a lawyer, it is her job to master a subject about which she is initially ignorant. To prepare for her role at the Atomic Energy Authority, she even studied her son's physics books. She also has a strategic business role, which she is well equipped to carry out.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-452635/Is-best-connected-woman-Britain

The monied class have zero compunction about irradiating the Northern Hemisphere, the Southern Hemisphere or any which way they slice up their planet and protect their loot with the nukes We the People have so kindly paid for.



It's getting apparent that us renters are SOL.

If the subject were public relations, I'd listen to her.

[flamingdem]

52. +1 !

[Rex]

58. rationalwiki!

Man these guys will stop at nothing!

[eggplant]

41. Wow, quite the hit piece.

And the rationalwiki page? Mmmm, you can just smell the quality.

[questionseverything]

53. rationalwiki is dead give away

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8394#pmconf

"Please listen to my message calmly" ... "Every possible method used to cool down all three reactors." ... "There is a fire at Unit 4 and we've had explosions at units 1,2 & 3" ... "Radiation has spread from these reactors and reading of levels seems very high" ... "Still further risk of radioactive material coming out" ... "We need now for everybody to move out of 20km from plant." ... "We would like to you to remain indoors at home or offices and avoid going outside from the 20km to 30km radius" ... "Everybody move out from 20km radius at Fukushima-2 (Daini) plant" ... [Note: As I understood that, references to Fukushima-2 (Daini) were first ones. Previous problems were at Fukushimi-1 (Daiichi)] ... "This is a situation of serious concern. But I request that you react very calmly." ... Takes 1 question: You have not talked about Unit 2 reactor. Kan: "Rather than talk abt each indvdl reactor, I talk about whole picture" ..

[Union Scribe]

34. His qualifications, for one thing.

He uses the fact that he's a "licensed reactor operator" to talk about next gen reactors, when the only thing he was ever licensed to run was a tiny pile operation at some podunk polytech that was barely powerful enough to light a reading lamp, if it had actually harnessed that power which it didn't. He's ridden that for 40+ years, with no other experience or training in vital areas he expounds on including health physics and plant management.

[Octafish]

36. That must be why he gets called on as an expert witness.

Here's his resume:

http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML0918/ML091800003.pdf

Nothing fake in there.

[Union Scribe]

39. So, no actual rebuttal.

I know he's an "expert witness"--have you ever seen a trial? If you have any doubt that completely unqualified blowhards can be expert witnesses, see the current Michigan court case about gay marriage. The state is calling all sorts of "experts" to talk about how marriage equality will destroy society. I'm not kidding. The label expert witness means nothing.

[Octafish]

42. What rebuttal?

I asked to see where Gundersen is wrong.

You jump in and demand I listen to the expert on the atomic payroll.

You, nor zappaman, nor longship, nor anyone else, has shown where Gundersen lied.

[Union Scribe]

47. If misrepresenting one's training isn't lying

to you, then we have different standards of honesty. And he is wrong, often. Wrong about how real reactors behave, wrong about how radionuclides behave, and wrong about the risks he overblows. But I can't link to any of that, because according to you any engineer or scientist who ever worked on anything nuclear is just a shill.

It's impossible to counter that kind of insulated defense mechanism.

It's the sort of thing that allows conspiracy and junk science to reign because anyone who knows enough to dispute it must be "on the payroll" of the bad guys.

[Octafish]

48. So where does he misrepresent himself?

Show me. Not in his resume. Not on Fairewinds.org. Not in regards to where I've read him quoted on Fukushima disaster.

Where? Show where he misrepresented himself, otherwise -- and you can write all day long about "conspiracy and junk science" -- all you have is a smear.

[zappaman]

56. Guess you missed it

Not that you ever care.
We know you love shit sources.


He has been dishonest about his qualifications and work experience

He misrepresents himself (or at least allows others to misrepresent him) as part of the nuclear industry.

He has an undeclared direct financial interest in increasing his profile as an anti-nuclear power consultant in order to attract new clients.

He subscribes to a theory of low-level radiation damage that has been discredited.

He has made claims that have been proven to be false.

He has made claims that don’t stand up to investigation, are anecdotal, and are unfalsifiable.

As time goes on and Fukushima produces less dramatic news, Gundersen’s reports become more dramatic.


The information about Gundersen’s company, Fairewinds Associates is mostly available on the company’s own website at fairewinds.com.

Gundersen’s 2006 resume is available online here: http://www.necnp.org/files/docs/NEC_March_8_2006_Appeal_re_Docket_6812_filings_3_8_06.pdf pages 26 – 29.

The information about his claims about running a reactor were first reported here: http://atomicinsights.com/2011/02/arnie-gundersen-has-inflated-his-resume-yet-frequently-claims-that-entergy-cannot-be-trusted.html

The information about the spent fuel pool not being dry originally came from a June 15/16 Associated Press article (date depends on your time zone). That article has now been taken down, but the text is still floating around on various news sites:
http://articles.boston.com/2011-06-16/news/29666500_1_fuel-pool-nrc-fuel-rods

The list of conditions that can cause a metallic taste in a person’s mouth were lifted directly from an article at Healthblurbs.com: http://www.healthblurbs.com/many-causes-of-metallic-taste-metal-taste-in-mouth-and-taste-of-metal-in-your-mouth-symptoms/


http://squeeze-box.ca/?p=892

[Yo_Mama]

67. He's basically just being alarmist

Read this and think about the implications:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-09/tokyo-radiation-less-than-in-paris-three-years-after-meltdown.html

Note that the article also discusses highly contaminated areas, esp. to the NW of the Fukushima Daiichi plant.

He's not as nutty as a lot of them, but the reality is that he does know from his training what these readings mean, and the implications, whereas the average person doesn't. And the alarmists are convincing some people to do things that are harmful to their health.

As for what he's making up, start here:
http://fairewinds.org/media/fairewinds-videos/west-coast-radiation-exposure-risks

The linear no-dose threshold theory is just a theory, and it's a theory that hasn't been borne out by studies conducted in areas that have natural high doses of radiation. Nor has it been borne out in animal testing. It's a theory used to set environmental safety levels, though, for which purpose it works pretty well. And he has the education to know this.

What he's NOT telling the public in this video is that US background environmental levels aren't going to change as a result of the "plume", and therefore there is no reason to worry. He's lying by omission - AND HE KNOWS IT.

And again, this may gain a lot of readership and some funding, but it is causing actual harm to poor deluded dopes who are taking stuff that can harm them. Contrast his statements from those who are actually studying the radiation:
http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/5875/20140204/california-kelp-tested-fukushima-radiation-year-long-study.htm

If you want to read some of the actual work on that theory, try this search:
https://www.google.com/#q=linear+no+dose+threshold+evidence

http://www.radiographyonline.com/article/S1078-8174%2811%2900069-1/abstract

Here's a publicly available review article:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2663584/

What studies actually seem to be showing is something quite interesting. Not only does linear no-threshold theory not work, it appears that it really doesn't work, because animal studies designed to be very sensitive show that at low doses, very low doses may cause more damage than higher doses, because cell-protective effects kick in. This is similar to you getting a very low virus exposure - you would not notice any effects until viral particles increase enough to invoke an immune response.

Of course at high levels damage is observable. This might explain why surveys in the west don't seem to confirm much in the way of adverse effects from most low-dose medical uses, and world wide surveys haven't shown negative health effects in areas with naturally high levels of exposure. It's only when doses get so high as to overwhelm your natural defenses that the damage becomes evident. And since we are all exposed to radiation naturally, and since the radiation level on earth has been dropping steadily ever since life evolved, flying a lot turns out not to be an observable health risk.

So now we have something of a public health hazard created by rumor:
http://rt.com/news/british-columbia-fukushima-radiation-097/

The natural rebuttal to the critiques of linear threshold no-dose theory is that epidemiological studies are not sensitive enough to pick up very low rates of increased disease. That is true, but I have read some that do pick up risks such as low vegetable consumption, lack of exercise, and stress, for example. So some of the studies have been pretty damned sensitive.

People are making money selling radiation dectectors and potassium iodide. There's money in alarmism.

Btw, I think Gundersen's critiques about the safety of nuclear power plants are better founded.

[NuclearDem]

71. Good post, but I have to address this:

The linear no-dose threshold theory is just a theory,

LNT is not a theory, and there is no such thing as "just a theory." Theory is the pinnacle of scientific knowledge, well-substantiated explanations for natural phenomena that have been subject to decades or even centuries of falsification and independent testing.

[RobertEarl]

73. Now that is embarrassing. You are on a roll!!

NuclearDem claims:"Theory is the pinnacle of scientific knowledge, well-substantiated explanations for natural phenomena that have been subject to decades or even centuries of falsification and independent testing."

Theory is: an educated guess; an assumption using knowledge.

You must have the wackiest dictionary, evah.

[NuclearDem]

76. And that, ladies and gentlemen,

is how RE permanently disqualified himself from being taken seriously when discussing science.

[CreekDog]

97. ...again

[Junkdrawer]

83. You're talking to a profession founded on a Big Lie...

To counter the Public Policy concerns about the extreme damage possible during and after a reactor accident, the industry FOR YEARS went about claiming to be able to, wait for it, compute the probability of a nuclear accident.

AFTER the reactors were built on this lie (and woe to anyone who pointed out the absurdity of "the probability of an accident" ), the industry backtracked from this position. Seems that, by then, there were sufficient accidents and near misses (none of whose root cause could be found on the fault trees used to superciliously produce said probability) to make the previous overconfident statements, well, counterproductive..

And once you have a track record of lying to me in such a big way, I'm probably never going to listen to your Pronouncements On Science again.

[NuclearDem]

84. I really hope you have some proof of me having ties to the industry

Other than my use of nuclear in my username, something I've been doing with email accounts and forum handles since I was twelve.

[Junkdrawer]

85. you <> "a profession"

now had I said "a professionAL"...

[NuclearDem]

86. So, you'd rather trust RE's "pronouncements on science"

like how scientific theory is nothing more than an educated guess?

Uh huh.

[Junkdrawer]

87. I've been involved PERSONALLY in the issue since 1974....

I'll leave it at that for now. Have a nice day. Go out. Get some mild, sustained exercise. It'll change your attitude and values.

[RobertEarl]

74. This bs part, makes your whole post stink, Yo

Yo_Mama claims: And since we are all exposed to radiation naturally, and since the radiation level on earth has been dropping steadily ever since life evolved, flying a lot turns out not to be an observable health risk.


We are not naturally exposed to the radionuclides from nuclear power. There is nothing natural about the radiation from the man made radionuclides that man has created.

And with the advent of nuclear testing in the atmosphere, Chernobyl, and Fukushima, background levels of the man made radionuclides have risen.

Who can read what you wrote that is so wrong and then have any faith in anything else you write? You really debased yourself with the pro-nuke testimony.

[greiner3]

25. Holy crap Batman!

How much do you have invested in the nuclear power industry?

[longship]

26. A degree in physics.

That's my investment.

It's always the conspiratorial thinking, isn't it?

I reject that, too.

The science says what it says. People need to get used to the fact that it usually gets it right, and self-corrects when it doesn't.

While Gundersen runs around with his hair on fire, the science moves on.

The measurements on the west coast show that the dangers there from Fukushima Daiichi is nearly non-existent. But the scientists are still recommending that it be tracked. That's a good thing, if only to get the information out so that the fear mongering can be falsified.

[zeemike]

51. Just so we can compare expertiese...

Gundersen is a graduate of the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (1971), with a B.A. in nuclear engineering, holds a master's degree in nuclear engineering , and gained an Atomic Energy Commission Fellowship (1972). Arnie Gundersen has more than 40-years of nuclear power engineering experience. Arnie holds a nuclear safety patent, was a licensed reactor operator, and is a former nuclear industry senior vice president. During his nuclear power industry career, Arnie also managed and coordinated projects at 70-nuclear power plants in the US. [2][9][1]
From 1972 to 1976 Gundersen worked at the Northeast Utilities Service Corporation as a nuclear engineer; and from 1976 to 1979 at New York State Electric & Gas as an engineering supervisor.[1] From 1979 to 1990 Gundersen was employed at Nuclear Energy Services, a Danbury, Connecticut-based consulting firm.[1] Gundersen served as an expert witness in the investigation of the 1979 Three Mile Island accident.[4] He co-authored the DOE Decommissioning Handbook, First Edition (1981-2).[1]

In 1990 Gundersen was a senior vice president at Nuclear Energy Services when he discovered radioactive material in an accounting safe. Three weeks after notifying the company president of what he believed to be radiation safety violations, Gundersen was fired. According to the New York Times, for three years, Gundersen was "awakened by harassing phone calls in the middle of the night" and "became concerned about his family's safety". Gundersen believes he was blacklisted, harassed and fired for doing what he thought was right.[2]

From 1993 to 2008 Gundersen was employed at a number of Connecticut schools teaching mathematics and physics;[1][10] in 2007 he became Mathematics Professor at Community College of Vermont.[1]

[longship]

54. He has only operated a 100 watt research reactor.

He was fired from his job in the nuclear power industry.

Not a very good résumé, from my reading of it.

Plus, much of what he claims about Fukushima Daiichi has been shown to be outright false. Which gives those who support nuclear power an opportunity to cast doubt on all those who spew Gundersen's rubbish.

So he has that going for him.

Why anybody would believe this guy? Isn't the actual science enough? I can make great arguments against nuclear power without making up west coast doom and gloom from Fukushima Daiichi. That's the difference between Arnie "I get paid to lie for my ideology" Gundersen and people who trust the science. The science speaks for itself.

When Gundersen's pronouncements are shown to be demonstrably false -- which they are -- which leg do his supporters have to stand on?

[zeemike]

59. Some people just hate whistle blowers.

We see it all the time, and they feel the need to discredit them at every opportunity.

Such is the condition of our world...self interest is all that matters.

[longship]

61. The issue is where the science stands, not any one person.

Authority in science resides in the body of data, and in how a particular discipline as a whole interprets the data. There is no authority in any one person, not even the so-called luminaries.

The test is always the facts of the universe. Those facts seem to be against what Mr. Gundersen has said.

Meanwhile, science moves on and does the kind of work as is documented in the OP. there is no danger from Fukushima Daiichi on the west coast. But science will continue to take measurements regardless because that may tell us all something important, for instance, about ocean currents.

Meanwhile Arnie Gundersen continues his hair on fire, doom and gloom pronouncements. Now falsified.

Why anybody against nuclear energy would continue to listen to him is a bit baffling.

The Fukushima Daiichi situation is damned bad. But when one makes shit up about it it allows the nuclear power supporters to claim that those opposed to nuclear power are doing just that. That hurts the anti-nuclear cause!

Why don't people understand that?

Keep to the science and stop listening to rubbish from people like Arnie Gundersen. The real science gives anybody enough ammunition against nuclear power.

And no, the west coast of the USA is not likely to be endangered. Why would anybody want it to be?

[zeemike]

65. Well science knows that all radiation is harmful to living cells

Does it not?
But there is a problem with it because it does not kill you right away unless the radiation is massive...and who can say that a cancer is or is not caused by it?...they know it does cause cancer but no one can say for sure it was that and not something else.
And the data for it will not show up for years from now, so now you can deny that it is a problem...so that the industry built up around it can continue to make profit off of this most dangerous energy ever created by man.
People are expendable in the pursuit of profit.

And as long as we do this insanity millions will die, but slowly enough that no one can blame it on the industry that created it.
But worship science if you will, but science can be used for evil or good, and in this modern world there is more evil than good...and science does is not the final authority on everything although you might think it is.

[longship]

66. Science also knows about dose/response.

Not all radiation is harmful. Thank goodness because we are all being hit by radiation every minute of every day we live. Science has measured that, too.

This is just the universe being the universe. But life evolved here regardless of this fact. People like to post counter readings from the west coast and scream Fukushima. But there is background radioactivity everywhere.

So there's that fact.

Frankly, I am not at all worried about the west coast, or the sea food. I expect that it will be fine. No data says differently.

[zeemike]

68. And not all radiation is the same.

Sunlight is radiation and you can sit under a sun lamp and soak up inferred radiation all day and it just makes you feel warm, but I don't suggest you sit under a UV light at all because it will cause skin cancer and we know that as a fact.
The type of radiation we are talking about is high energy radiation and there is no safe dose...it will damage cells in your body, it is only a question of how much and how many.

But if you think it is OK then you should be willing to eat some fish caught off the shores of Fukishema...I bet you can get them cheap.

[longship]

69. No, but a west coast salmon would be tasty.

Yummy!

(Nice attempt at a straw man.)

[zeemike]

72. Make sure it is not a Sockeye salmon.

Or a blue fin Tuna...who's range extends to Japan.

[uppityperson]

82. "Range" is where they are found, not that they all migrate that far.

[Junkdrawer]

80. Monopoly on Science (tm)

[NuclearDem]

49. And the shill gambit.

[Junkdrawer]

81. Like anyone would sign THOSE timecards...

Last edited Mon Mar 10, 2014, 08:35 AM - Edit history (1)

Money doesn't grow on trees.

[LeftOfWest]

30. Agree with you.

Thanks for letting me know he is attacked here.

Disappointing to read that.

Agree with his expertise in Nuclear Energy.

[longship]

50. He is attacked here, and many other places...

because he gets the science wrong.

I do not care if he is paid as an expert. The fools who do so are buying what they want, not what the science says.

I am against nuclear power, but I am equally against idiot ideologues like Arnie "Dumb as a bag of hammers" Gundersen.

If you are going to make an argument against nukes, at least get the fucking science right.

Gundersen is hopeless to his own cause. He allows his easily falsified claims give comfort to supporters of nuclear power.

If one is against nukes, why would one support this guy? Merely because he says scary things about it? What if those scary things aren't true? Where does your position stand when you pin your arguments to a fraud?

I would rather pin my opinions on the facts, not opinion.

The science says that Gundersen is wrong on nearly all of his conclusions. Nevertheless, the Fukushima Daiichi situation is a huge disaster. But fear mongering is not going to help matters.

Why would any sane person want to portray it worse than it actually is? Given that many of his claims have been falsified, one might want to ask Arnie Gundersen that question.

[Junkdrawer]

79. 40 yrs. experience knocked down by vague insults...

well done, I guess

[RobertEarl]

88. Dude, who is your source?

You keep slamming people who are out front, and deemed to be experts, not only by DUers but the public in general.

Thread after thread you have pronounced Gunderson and other scientists to be wrong, but you never provide your own sources.

Contrary to your statement that... "The science says that Gundersen is wrong on nearly all of his conclusions".... The science has actually proven Gunderson to be correct in his theories.

It's almost as if you have you are a little Fox running around making Fox like declarations. Is Fox news your source?

[Junkdrawer]

89. If Gunderson ever, by chance, came here unannounced and held a Q&A...

Guess how many would scatter under the floorboards?

Ever challenge (read piss off), on technical grounds, a no shit working nuclear engineer who was elevated to a position of authority by his/her peers? I give love taps.

[RobertEarl]

90. I can picture the scattering

Gunderson has actually been very conservative minded.

He has been very careful to not suggest things which he may have thought was worst case. Some Foxes always claimed him to be wrong, but Gunderson has proven time and again that he had it figured out. Take the melted cores for instance. Our own little foxes here, from the beginning, said the cores were contained. Gunderson said he didn't think the cores were intact, much less contained as designed.

Indeed, the cores have actually been spreading around the world. So much for being contained, eh?

[Junkdrawer]

91. If only Tepco listened to him and, while they could, rerouted the mountain spring water....

around the damaged reactors as opposed to trying to block it after it had become contaminated...

[RobertEarl]

93. Y'know, when you think about it....

There has been an awful lot of wishful thinking going on. Nearly all of it from the pro-nuke side. It is a belief system - this wishful thinking - that has been proclaiming from day one that everything will be fine. Of course that is the most comforting view to hold. Heck, if you can't trust the technology and the people who run the stuff.....

Along comes a scientist - Gunderson- who shows the technologists to be naked. He exposes their toys to be out of control, and, well, that upsets the belief system of the 'nukes are safe' crowd.

Really, they have gone so far as to become anti-scientific in their reactions.

[Junkdrawer]

94. And counterproductive. That reroute would have been a hell of a lot cheaper...

than what Tepco faces now. Arnie got my attention and respect because, from about Day One, it was clear he was there to: Tell the Truth & help where he could.

[Junkdrawer]

78. Yep. Arnie is the Real Deal...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Gundersen

[cilla4progress]

3. Think of all the radiation in the atmosphere

just since Hiroshima and Nagasaki!

Blight on the human species...courtesy of the good ol' USA.

[reddread]

5. another big win for Fresno

sorry I started nosing around...

http://epa.gov/radnet/radnet-data/radnet-fresno-bg.html

if anyone spots another location similar or greater, please let me know.
Im sure that will make me feel better.

[Brother Buzz]

7. The Fresno Raisin Council should exploit this

[flamingdem]

12. Is that airborne? That isn't the concern now - it's precipitation

cycle if the ocean is full of cesium etc. and fruit, vegetables and milk -- cows grazing bioaccumulate cesium.

Berkeley was running tests for a while you can find them via google, look for milk testing berkeley edu

[reddread]

14. that is simply one of the highest, possibly the highest result from all monitors

i havent checked every dot on their map, but only one so far came close, and no it has nothing to with Fukushima.
It does, however, alarm the shit out of me. Id like to think a calibration error, or happy thoughts,
but....

[librechik]

6. Wha---THEY HAVEN"T DONE THAT YET???!!!

[C_eh_N_eh_D_eh]

15. There hasn't been any to test yet.

It's taken this long for the contaminated water to reach the West Coast area.

[Yo_Mama]

19. Actually, they have

There is normal monitoring. Then there was special plume monitoring.

As the article points out, some sampling is already being done:

In Oregon, state park rangers take quarterly samples of surf water and sand at three locations along the coast. The water is analyzed for Cesium 137 and iodine 131. Both of those already exist in the ocean at low levels from nuclear testing decades ago.

The monitoring began in April 2012, when tsunami debris began arriving along the Oregon coast. So far, all of the tests have shown less than "minimum detectable activity," or the least amount that can be measured.
...
California regularly samples seawater around the state's nuclear power plants to determine whether the plants are impacting the environment. Those results all are below minimum detectable activity.

Here is more information:
https://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=83397&tid=3622&cid=94989

[librechik]

20. thx, hard to believe nobody took the time...

feelin better about our scientists!

[n2doc]

22. It's already being done

http://www.kpbs.org/news/2014/feb/10/california-kelp-tested-exposure-fukushima-radiatio/

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303395604577432452114613564?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702303395604577432452114613564.html

I am willing to bet nearly every west coast lab with a gamma counter will be collecting samples to look for radiation along the coast. Even at low levels, it makes a perfect natural tracer to examine the flow of water and elements. Buessler is just trying to gin up some funds for himself, people do this every time any disaster happens. If there are dangerous levels found on the West Coast, you can be sure that the information will get out. This is too big to hide.

[medeak]

28. park ranger told me year ago kelp

was radioactive and being picked up off beach

[longship]

45. Yup! A park ranger with a PhD in physics, no doubt.

Or maybe just a park ranger.

[PearliePoo2]

23. REMEMBER! It's not like the source and spigot has been shut off.

They're still allowing the leak of tons of tainted water to "leak" into the Pacific Ocean EACH DAY.
The shit is still coming with NO end or solution in sight.
fucking TEPCO bastards.

[flamingdem]

55. Yes, that's why this scientist can't be sure we're "safe"

He knows full well that it will continue indefinately and the issue of bioaccumulation means it will build over time in our soil, in our precipitation cycle, in our bodies..

[ffr]

24. Any word on Alaskan sea food testing?

I think that would have a far greater reach throughout the country and World, for that matter.

MMM-mmm. Fresh Alaskan sea food!

[medeak]

27. tons of pieces of bamboo on beach after big storm two days ago

we clean up beach every other day on CA central coast. Pretty certain from Japan as have never seen before.

[Cleita]

32. Aren't they a little late to the party?

RadCast has been reporting on this for some time now.

[sulphurdunn]

33. How will you know it's safe?

Why, cute PR spokes blonds and pompous pundits from the nuclear lobby will tell you it's safe. That's how.

[longship]

57. Or you can pay attention to the science.

And ignore the opinion pieces.

The science says:

1. This is a horrendous disaster. It will take huge resources to clean up the mess.

2. The west coast of the USA and the sea life in the Pacific are safe. Thankfully, 5,000 miles of the largest ocean on the planet lies between.

[sulphurdunn]

63. I didn't get the impression

from reading the article that anyone suggested there was nothing to worry about or that sea life in the Pacific was safe, only that computer modeling and monitoring efforts at this point suggest that the initial impacts will be minimal. The latest information I have about that horrendous mess is that it may take 40 more years to clean it up.

[longship]

64. That's likely true.

But some people have set their hair on fire and are running around publishing fear mongering rubbish. That helps nobody understand anything. You can see such a thing within this very thread.

That's my issue.

The data will inform us of what is happening. Science will solve this.

[sulphurdunn]

96. I agree of course.

Science will solve this problem or it won't be solved. Arrayed against science, and a workable solution, are politics, investment capital and mass media propaganda. I don't think science has much of a chance against those odds.

[Scuba]

60. There's no need to test. I read that right here on DU. No mention of any downside to testing.

[frwrfpos]

70. DU rec

[One_Life_To_Give]

95. Woods Holes Crowdsourced ourradioactiveocean

appears to have over a dozen stations. Thus far the Calif/BC stations are only picking up our weapons tests from the 50's and 60's.