What we're told about (the overthrow) bears only the sketchiest relationship with reality (Guardian)

[newthinking]

Note that this writer essentially predicted what happened
"The Ukrainian faultline has the potential to draw in outside powers and lead to a strategic clash."


In Ukraine, fascists, oligarchs and western expansion are at the heart of the crisis
From The Guardian

The story we're told about the protests gripping Kiev bears only the sketchiest relationship with reality

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion


"The Ukrainian faultline has the potential to draw in outside powers and lead to a strategic clash."

We've been here before. For the past couple of months street protests in Ukraine have been played out through the western media according to a well-rehearsed script. Pro-democracy campaigners are battling an authoritarian government. The demonstrators are demanding the right to be part of the European Union. But Russia's president Vladimir Putin has vetoed their chance of freedom and prosperity.

It's a story we've heard in one form or another again and again – not least in Ukraine's western-backed Orange revolution a decade ago. But it bears only the sketchiest relationship to reality. EU membership has never been – and very likely never will be – on offer to Ukraine. As in Egypt last year, the president that the protesters want to force out was elected in a poll judged fair by international observers. And many of those on the streets aren't very keen on democracy at all.

You'd never know from most of the reporting that far-right nationalists and fascists have been at the heart of the protests and attacks on government buildings. One of the three main opposition parties heading the campaign is the hard-right antisemitic Svoboda, whose leader Oleh Tyahnybok claims that a "Moscow-Jewish mafia" controls Ukraine. But US senator John McCain was happy to share a platform with him in Kiev last month. The party, now running the city of Lviv, led a 15,000-strong torchlit march earlier this month in memory of the Ukrainian fascist leader Stepan Bandera, whose forces fought with the Nazis in the second world war and took part in massacres of Jews.

[SomethingFishy]

1. And why should I trust this report as opposed to any others?

This is why I don't weigh in on the crisis in the Ukraine. Because I have no idea what is really going on and there is no one I trust to tell me the truth.

[newthinking]

2. You shouldn't. In this climate you must read multiple sources

particularly outside of "mainstream press".

[ProSense]

4. "Multiple"? This is

the second commentary (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024622141) you've posted from the same dubious Russia/Soviet apologist (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024622141#post107)

[newthinking]

10. That would be quite funny if it were coming from someone known for pushing a single viewpoint

Of course you would consider any source in opposition to your own narrative to be dubious. I'll leave it to the reader to check it for themselves. Indeed it is very difficult to get at the truth with so much geopolitical posturing and PR occurring.

[ProSense]

13. Yeah, you're just trying to be 'fair and balanced' by offering the pro-Putin "viewpoint."

That's hilarious.

[newthinking]

17. Well, if not supporting neo-nazi's is in opposition to your viewpoint.....

[ProSense]

19. Putin is against Nazis in Ukraine, but he loves them in Russia

"Well, if not supporting neo-nazi's is in opposition to your viewpoint....."

It's fear mongering BS.

Putin is against Nazis in Ukraine, but he loves them in Russia
http://americablog.com/2014/03/meet-vladimir-putin-favorite-neo-nazis-russia-crimea.html

Using Putin's far-right fear mongering to hype the dangers in Ukraine
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024635249

[newthinking]

21. Nazi's are in the executive branch in Kiev - Over their military!!!

I'll tell you what.
I am against Neo-Nazi's in either country. Will you say the same?

And again, you see this as pretty much only a geopolitical struggle. Nobody is saying that Putin in crimea is the "right thing". It is simply understandable and a reaction to what is going on in Kiev.

Things can't be unwound unless **both** sides are represented realistically. This is not cleanly "about Putin". And by whitewashing what happened in Kiev Putin's hand is actually strengthened.

And the current narrative is particulary unfair and damaging to half the country. Who has to live with the consequences.

[ProSense]

23. Pure BS.

And again, you see this as pretty much only a geopolitical struggle. Nobody is saying that Putin in crimea is the "right thing". It is simply understandable and a reaction to what is going on in Kiev.

Things can't be unwound unless something **both** sides are represented realistically. This is not cleanly 'about Putin'. And by whitewashing what happened in Kiev Putin's hand is actually strengthened.

And the current narrative is particulary unfair and damaging to half the country. Who has to live with the consequences.

This is nonsense. You're inventing a narrative that the pro-Putin pieces you're posting is out of concern for the rest of the people of Ukraine?

What's the fear mongering supposed to mean? Do you think Russia is going to create a safe haven for dissent and equality?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024633791

[AnalystInParadise]

38. So you won't

condemn Neo-Nazis in both countries. At least you are honest in your bias.

And I have blasted Putin, but that doesn't mean I have to like the little jack booted thugs in Svoboda.

[ProSense]

40. Please

"So you won't condemn Neo-Nazis in both countries. "

...spare me the silliness. Fuck neo-Nazis in whichever country they reside, including this one.

That has nothing to do with my point. That's simply obfuscation from the fact that Putin is fear mongering and people pushing that as a valid.

[newthinking]

39. So are you denying that Andriy Parubiy is in charge of Defense?

along with two members of Right Sector? You have not said what you think of that?

The new deputy prime minister, Oleksandr Sych, is from Svoboda; National Security Secretary Andriy Parubiy is a co-founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Party, Svoboda's earlier incarnation; the deputy secretary for National Security is Dmytro Yarosh, the head of Right Sector. Chief prosecutor Oleh Makhnitsky is another Svoboda member, as are the ministers for Agriculture and Ecology (Channel 4, 3/5/14). In short, if the prospect of fascists taking power again in Europe worries you, you should be very worried about Ukraine.

From: FAIR: Denying the Far-Right Role in the Ukrainian Revolution
http://www.fair.org/blog/2014/03/07/denying-the-far-right-role-in-the-ukrainian-revolution/

[newthinking]

44. Crickets again

[bvar22]

46. Hey...this complex geopolitical chess game is EASY (if you have a binary mind).

They are evil dictators who kill their own people !
[font size=5]If you're not FOR the WAR in [/font]
Vietnam
Afghanistan
Iraq
Libya
Syria,
[font size=5]The Ukraine[/font]

[font size=5]you're WITH [/font]
The Communists
AlQaeda
The Terrorists
Saddam
Qaddafi
Assad
[font size=5]Putin!!!![/font]

Personally, I want to know IF there are any Good Guys
before I'll consider jumping in to oppose the Bad Guy.

We should have LEARNED by now.
Libya, Afghanistan, and Iraq are just the latest disasters provoked by our Humanitarian/Freedom Interventions.

As SOON as I start hearing the drumbeat (on DU as well as The Media) about
What a BAD guy one of them is... I get suspicious.
My cynicism is well earned.

Apparently, some people:

a) Never learn, proving that that PT Barnum radically underestimated the rate at which suckers are born in the USA

OR

b)profit from our Military adventurism,
and couldn't care LESS about spreading Democracy.


Terror! Terror! Terror!

Evil Dictators! Booga...Booga

Freedom Bombs and Hellfire Drones.

We're going to spread OUR 1% style of Democracy to you
whether you want it our not!

YeeHaw! Lets ROLL!!!
USA....USA...USA
[/font]

[sabrina 1]

22. So what credible sources would you recommend? n/t

[rhett o rick]

43. So what about it? nm

[quinnox]

3. Well, right here at DU, we have plenty of posters who have lived there, or have family there,

and know all about it. Or so they say, I'm sure they are all telling the truth...

[quinnox]

9. Let's just say I take stuff like that with a large grain of salt

When all of a sudden I see a bunch of duers say they are from Ukraine, or have family there, or have lived there before, it makes me a weee bit suspicious. Ukraine ain't exactly the most popular country in the world or on the main tourist destinations of most Americans. Its kind of an obscure country.

[newthinking]

14. Russians and Ukrainians are a fairly large minority in the US

It is too bad you have not had the opportunity to be exposed more to these cultures.

There are close to 1 Million Ukrainian Americans and more than 3 million Russian Americans. Immigrants keep ties to relatives in their home country for generations.

Ukrainian Americans often visit their previous land. Most leave parents, sisters, brothers, uncles, aunts and other relatives to come here but they keep close ties.

You should not be surprised that as large a population as DU has there are a number of people with relatives there or who have spent time there. Ukraine is actually one of the most popular travel locations in Eastern Europe for a number of reasons including the fact it has the largest percentage of Christians in the region.

[Fumesucker]

27. People who are from Ukraine or somehow connected to Ukraine are just as likely to have an agenda

I think the poster's point is that we are all just pixels on a screen, any words you read here have to be taken with some skepticism.

If there's one thing I have learned here on DU it is to be skeptical of things people say.

[cthulu2016]

28. True. Likelier, really.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Just for when we have something explode in mexico

I have family down there, and I grew down there. Making sure you know this before the explosion.

Also as far as this situation, let's just say I have an MA in history, with quite a bit of reading into the area's history.

Some of what those people have written matches what we know from experts.

But grain of salt with all reporting, and I mean all, including the Guardian, RT, NYT, Reuters, Al Jazeera, is all but clear and everybody has an agenda.

[pangaia]

5. I believe that you and I are the only people anywhere who do not know what is going on.

Or at least admit it..

[SomethingFishy]

8. I would go with the "admit it" part..

The OP is interesting. However I find it more interesting that this same meme is popping up everywhere in the last couple days. That alone makes me suspicious of whether or not this is true...

[MADem]

6. I don't quite buy the bullshit whine "Waaaah, the President was elected in a fair election..."

Ergo, what? If he sucks, the people should just eat it and put up with a corrupt thief until the next go-round?

Funny how we didn't take that advice with Nixon. He resigned to escape impeachment, but we were planning on throwing HIM out on HIS ass with very little ceremony had he not turned tail and run.

So, why is it "OK" for us to essentially hound a shitty leader from office, but it's a great crime for Egypt or the Ukraine to do the same?

[ProSense]

11. Note that the OP commentary is

from January 29, before Yanukovych fled.

In this more recent commentary (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024622141), it's all pro-Putin BS.

As I pointed out in that thread, the author is a Russia/Soviet apologist (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024622141#post107)

[MADem]

12. Well, it stunk like horse shit no matter when it was written!

But I do take your point, certainly!

[newthinking]

16. Right, and the PMs on the west were not corrupt? Corruption is endemic there

I suppose that the overthrow would have more "legitimacy" if it didn't bring neo-nazi's into the Executive branch and if they had canned *all* of the corrupt government in all parties. But all they have done is likely made the future worse. The election in May will be a farce, since they intimidated and destroyed several opposition parties. They have already brought in oligarchs. But hey, these are the "good guy" corrupt politicians and oligarchs (oh, and svoboda members lol).

[MADem]

18. Oh please--you're hanging it all out, here.

Say hey to Vladdie Boy.

Not buying what you're selling, pal.

[newthinking]

24. I have only made two comments about Putin and his actions

In one comment I said I felt that things were heading to a serious military civil war and when Russia came it it stopped that trajectory (for the time being).

The only other personal comments specifically about Putin, Crimea, or the Russian intervention has been around giving an understanding from the other half of the country, because the current narrative denies half the story.

It is really unfair for you to table me as a "Putin lover". It is too bad you feel you must stoop to that. It is a great way to attempt to intimidate some, but I am beyond being intimidated by that kind of talk. In fact it makes me more determined to present the information that I have learned of the situation.

[Rex]

25. Try and brush it off.

You will get called 'Putin lover' and 'Obama hater' on this site by about 5 or 6 people...I guess they have a 'condition'.

[newthinking]

33. Thanks Rex

You are right of course. I do see that in reality it seems they are a vocal minority as well.

[bemildred]

41. Nothing good comes from it, unless you're bored.

"A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" -- Baby Driver; Paul Simon

How many posters around here are complaining about sources? Like because Putin is a (pejorative of choice) one ought not be interested is what he says. Or the other side of that too. I read everthing I can find, on subjects that interest me, and I often post things I don't really agree with. I'm not afraid of ideas.

People who try to scare you or make you mad are not your friends.

[alcibiades_mystery]

47. The quotation is from "The Boxer, " not "Baby Driver"

Just sayin'...

[bemildred]

48. You are correct.

[MADem]

32. Why have you doctored the headline, and tried to pass off an old article as new,

as was pointed out downthread?

It would appear that you are shopping an agenda here. You are not being forthright in your presentation.

That's not "intimidation" -- that's fact. And it's not "stooping" either.

[sabrina 1]

26. Why wait until May to have an election? We have no idea what a majority of Ukrainians think about

overthrow of their government. And it's notable that while people in the US think it's perfectly okay for OTHER COUNTRIES to overthrow elected governments, you can be sure they would be outraged at the very suggestion of it happening here.

Eg, Bush/Cheney were appointed to the WH, then lied this country into war. Yet, no sane person would have even suggested that they should overthrown in a violent coup. Because we are 'civilized' and coups and overthrowing of governments is for other people.

Thanks for searching for the truth.

We know that two US Senators met with the leader of the Sbovoda Party. What I would like to know is, did these two people know anything about them?

I also remember the support here for the Orange Revolution. But once it was over, there was no more interest in it, and it was 'on to the next'.
It might help broaden our views to actually find out what happened after that. How much corruption there was for years.

And what will happen regarding corruption now that the protesters have won especially since that was one of the main reasons for their protests.

Yanukovich wasn't the only one who was corrupt, so if this revolution was genuine, what happened in Iceland will happen in Ukraine.

We'll see, but with the country now being sold out to the IMF and World Bank, which Iceland refused to do, I don't have much faith in seeing corruption investigated. It certainly wasn't in the rest of the EU countries who have been enslaved to the IMF and World Bank.

[Fumesucker]

29. Dubya wasn't even "elected" it was more like an appointment by the SCOTUS

But of course we must look forward rather than backward.

[MADem]

31. That's true--he was selected.

We didn't throw him out on his ass, though we probably should have.

But we did do it with Nixon, so it's not like we've never applied pressure to get rid of a shitty leader, ever. That's why I can't buy the "Waaah, he was elected" line. It's rather like "Well, you made your bed, now lie in it!" The people in Ukraine and Egypt decided that they wanted a new bed, as we did when we swapped out Nixon for (selected, not elected) Ford.

[Fumesucker]

35. Arguably Dubya was worse than Nixon

Nixon at least wasn't Darth Cheney's puppet.

Just because something has happened in the now fairly distant past doesn't mean it will happen again.

At this point I don't think any future POTUS will ever be removed from office again no matter what they do.

[erpowers]

49. Different situations

Nixon was not removed from office by a violent coup. There is a big difference between planning to bring a criminal case and impeach a leader and removing him from office by force without listing the charges against him and voting on whether or not to impeach.

[MADem]

53. Indeed. He also didn't expropriate tens of billions from the treasury and live in obscene luxury.

The most violent coups, too, leave the leader dead as a doorpost.

[alarimer]

15. I suspect it might have something to do with the 37 billion he stole

I think the figure was 37 billion dollars, but whatever it was, it was a hell of a lot of money.

I don't know if the scale of the corruption was known back when this was written, but certainly the guy belongs in prison, along with his cronies.

Not sure of the current (acting) government is as currupt.

[cthulu2016]

20. Your headline is doctored, and the article is from January

Why are you claiming in the headline that the linked Guardian piece is about "the overthrow"?

[newthinking]

30. This is not "late breaking news"

It is a "title" that represents it's pertinence at this time and in line with GD guidelines. Are you saying that the government at the time of the piece was not overthrown?

The article title is in the post itself.

So is the link.

[SidDithers]

34. Oh. Seumus Milne again...

Sid

[frwrfpos]

36. DU rec

[Catherina]

42. "The Ukrainian faultline has the potential to draw in outside powers and lead to a strategic clash."

Yes he did indeed ("essentially predicted what happened&quot .

[malaise]

45. The UK Guardian is my #1 source

Rec

[jeff47]

50. Thank you for the post Mr. Putin. (nt)

[840high]

51. rec.

[Kolesar]

52. Seumas claims the protestors are "fascists"

Pernicious nonsense.
I have read enough about this story. Seumas is a hack with a deadline to produce an opinion column and he flubbed it.