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[nadinbrzezinski]

This message was self-deleted by its author (nadinbrzezinski) on Tue Mar 11, 2014, 08:19 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[cali]

1. they aren't like cigarettes and they aren't tobacco products.

[CBGLuthier]

2. Exactly how are they not tobacco products? Is the nicotine artificial?

I have not smoked for about five years but the way everyone talks about these wonders I think i should just spark it up. Or would anyone with any fucking sense admit that tobacco/nicotine is bad for you no matter how it is taken in?

[Mariana]

7. Tobacco isn't the only plant that has nicotine.

There are many others that have significant amounts.

[Tikki]

60. Does the amount of nicotine in e-cigarettes continue the addiction? If not then why continue to pay

the cost of e-cigarettes and all the peripheries that go along with them when, as you say,
you can get a mild nicotine fix from foods.

Why exactly is someone using e-cigarettes?

Tikki

[Mariana]

64. Because they enjoy it.

Almost everyone who switches from regular cigs to e-cigs starts with some level of nicotine and gradually reduces the amount to zero. At that point, some of them stop using the e-cigs. The rest continue to use it with zero nicotine because they enjoy it.

I imagine there are some few, somewhere, who keep using fluid with nicotine forever. There are probably some who do the same thing with the nicotine patches or the gum - just keep using them and never give them up. More power to them They aren't smoking.

[Tikki]

74. Here is the problem…we need statistics on how many e-cigarette users actually quit the nicotine...

Young ones are starting the e-cigarettes as a fad and we need to know if they are intaking nicotine to addiction.

Do we really want a new generation addicted to nicotine?

I and the others I have spoken with were under the impression that e-cigarettes were a step down
tool to quitting the nicotine addiction.

I don't want you enjoying them around young ones in public …so I really believe they need to be regulated.


Tikki

[Mariana]

79. I think they shouldn't be sold to minors.

I agree with that. Even with no nicotine, they should be for adults only.

By they way, if you're concerned about nicotine being glamorized, you should know that the BBC series "Sherlock" has Sherlock Holmes using nicotine patches as a stimulant. The program has been broadcast in the US on PBS stations. I'm sure many young ones have watched it.

[Tikki]

85. I wonder if nicotine patches have become a fad…Stimulants have all levels of addiction...

nicotine is very high on the addictive scale and has shown to be hard to wean one away from.

But, according to what I've read is only active in the body for 48 hours.

Tikki

[HockeyMom]

128. Must be a modern version of Sherlock

I saw one decades ago where he shot heroin, and Dr. Watson gave it to him.

[HockeyMom]

133. What will you people do with legal Marijuana?

Maybe you DO need to be around that. Think about it.

[Mariana]

147. It is a modern version.

It's excellent, by the way. Very well done.

[VanillaRhapsody]

111. The nicotine addiction isn't the big problem healthwise...its the Tar and OTHER chemicals

put into cigarettes. For example the chemical that makes a cigarette continue to burn when set down in an ashtray (notice that cigars will go out...while cigarettes continue to burn).

I am addicted to caffeine...should they be stopping "young ones" and me from getting cola, tea or coffee products because they might get addicted to them? Should I be allowed to enjoy them around them "in public"? Should we allow no alcohol products be consumed "in public" because of children?

Not everyone has children in this world. We shouldn't be dictated to constantly by those that do...

by the way I do not use e-cigs.

[Tikki]

134. Addiction is a problem…and it costs money and health to maintain…do we want another generation...

addicted to nicotine?

Regulations and different (or no e-cigarette advertising) can, hopefully, rebrand e-cigarettes as a step down tool to
the end of nicotine addiction.


Tikki

[VanillaRhapsody]

136. Okay then.,....so is caffeine and so sugar.

[Tikki]

141. Already stated…nicotine in a difficult addiction…it is highly addictive and difficult to wean from..

Manufacturers of nicotine are counting on getting nicotine to consumers anyway they can…it is a cash cow
with a long life for them.

Do you want another generation addicted to nicotine?


Tikki

[A HERETIC I AM]

137. Actually, most major brands will not continue to burn like they used to.

If left alone, a Marlboro will go out in a few short minutes. In the old days, they would burn all the way to the filter. Not anymore.

They did it for the obvious safety reasons. One of the major causes of house fires is/was a burning cigarette left alone, dropped or forgotten about.

[VanillaRhapsody]

138. No that changed when they came under the purview of the FDA...

It was in there 6 yrs ago when I still smoked.

[A HERETIC I AM]

139. I unfortunately still smoke and the Marlboro lights I buy will go out.

I'll video one doing it if you like.

[VanillaRhapsody]

140. thats them....and that is now....

6 yrs ago that was STILL the case...I know it for a fact as the brand I smoked DID.

[A HERETIC I AM]

146. Yours did what? Continue to burn?

I know that was the case! I've been a smoker for 35 years.

There were and perhaps still are brands that ALWAYS went out, like Lucky Strikes, for instance.

And yes, for years the cigarettes I smoked would, if left alone, burn all the way down.

Not anymore.

[VanillaRhapsody]

156. yes and all but 5 brands did so...until they came under FDA....

[DanTex]

13. Nicotine itself is not a carcinogen.

The severe health risks from smoking are from other things besides nicotine. The nicotine is the addictive part, but the rest of the stuff is what kills you.

[Sgent]

14. Yes and no

nicotine doesn't cause lung cancer, but it does cause heart disease by itself. Its not nearly as safe as caffeine.

[hfojvt]

20. still and all though

tobacco is far worse for you than nicotine is.

[DanTex]

21. No and no.

It's not a carcinogen, period. It may or may not cause heart disease. It's known that smoking causes heart disease, but this is not believed to be due to the nicotine itself, and it's not clear whether nicotine alone significantly increases the risk of heart disease.

[Sgent]

31. We know it raises blood pressure

and is very addictive. Higher BP leads to a higher chance of heart disease.

It makes as much sense to extrapolate that it causes heart disease as it does to say that ecigs help people quit smoking. They both are probably true based on existing knowledge, and neither have any direct on point studies to back them up.

[DanTex]

41. That's true.

It makes as much sense to extrapolate that it causes heart disease as it does to say that ecigs help people quit smoking. They both are probably true based on existing knowledge, and neither have any direct on point studies to back them up.

This might technically be true, but to me the benefits of quitting smoking are much greater than the potential risk of heart disease through greater BP. Also, smoking causes heart disease beyond just raising blood pressure, so it is still accurate to say that the major health risks from smoking are due to other things besides nicotine. Caffeine also raises blood pressure, so if the only link from nicotine to heart disease is through blood pressure, then it is in fact in the same category as caffeine (aside from addictiveness).

[NoOneMan]

61. Well, it doesn't exactly sound benign in the cancer area

Nicotine also takes part in the initiation and promotion of carcinogenesis in the GI tract. In this regard, nicotine and its metabolites are found to be mutagenic and have the ability to modulate cell proliferation, apoptosis, and angiogenesis during tumoriogenesis through specific receptors and signalling pathways.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15107574



Are you sure you aren't basing your "its not a carcinogen" narrative on the fact that it hasn't been thoroughly studied and proven, either way, as a standalone ingredient?

Example from wiki

The IARC has not evaluated nicotine in its standalone form or assigned it to an official carcinogen group. While no epidemiological evidence supports that nicotine alone acts as a carcinogen in the formation of human cancer, research over the last decade has identified nicotine's carcinogenic potential in animal models and cell culture.

Lack of research isn't proof in itself of lack of action

[DanTex]

66. I'll settle for "no epidemiological evidence supports that nicotine alone acts as a carcinogen in

the formation of human cancer."

I'm all for more research, but the point is, the major health risks from smoking are not due to the effects of nicotine, but from everything else that is in cigarette smoke.

[NoOneMan]

68. There is some evidence

Like the study I posted. Just saying.


In terms of harm reduction, we also need more evidence before we suggest that e-cigs actually can accomplish this. There are many mechanisms in which they may lead to an increase in harm by increasing demand for nicotine products in new markets (some of which demand may be filled tobacco products at a later date).

BTW, take all the shit out of it I don't see why anyone would bother with the shit. You want a good high, try pot in my honest opinion.

[DanTex]

75. There's also evidence of beneficial health effects of nicotine.

For example, from that same study:

However, to elucidate this complex pathogenic mechanism, further study at the molecular level is warranted. In contrast, findings of clinical trials give promising results on the use of nicotine as an adjuvant therapy for UC. The beneficial effect of nicotine on UC seems to be mediated through multiple mechanisms. More clinical studies are needed to establish the therapeutic value of nicotine in this disease.

A little more googling...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC526783/pdf/pbio.0020404.pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014299999008857
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166432800002072
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301008299000453

[NoOneMan]

76. Even Crack and Heroin have a positive effect or two

[DanTex]

77. Those also have a lot of negative effects, beyond just a few ambivalent sentences in an abstract.

[Autumn]

30. Nicotine is found in some foods naturally

tomato's, potato's, eggplant, peppers cauliflower, tea and others. I'm not giving any of them up. It's the chemicals the tobacco companies add that makes the problem with cigarettes worse.

I like my e cig. I have been using the juice with no nicotine for a couple of weeks now. I feel great. It in no way looks or feels like a cigarette.

[truedelphi]

115. When people say "the juice" with regards to

E cigs, what is it they are referring to?

I don't know anyone who smokes, and feel like I am in some isolated region of modern day society, when subjects like this come up.

For instance, for about six months, I thought that "Bath Salts" that authorities were complaining about were related to "Bath Salts," that people used in their bath.

[Autumn]

122. It's an oil that you mix flavors or nicotine in and vape.

I can't remember the name of the oil I would have to look for the paper that it came with. It doesn't stink at all.

[Liberal Veteran]

126. It is the actual consumed substance in an e-cig (or at least refillable ones).

E-cig liquid (e-juice, e-liquid, etc...) is propylene glycol and/or vegetable glycerin, flavoring, and/or nicotine.

That's all it is.

So if someone has a refillable e-cig, they might choose to use a vanilla raspberry "juice" that has a flavor indicative of the name today and tomorrow they may fill their e-cig with one that tastes like caramel coffee.

[Autumn]

149. I did not like the caramel coffee. To me it tastes burnt.

Like the black cherry and the black and mild.

[Liberal Veteran]

152. No argument there. And many of the "tobacco" flavors taste like licking an ashtray. -nt

[truedelphi]

159. Isn't propylene glycol one of the ingredients in anti freeze?

I wouldn't mind seeing that taken out of the mix, especially if other compounds can do the same thing it does.

[energumen]

178. antifreeze is ethylene glycol

Propylene glycol is generally recognized as safe by the FDAand is used as a food additive and in pharmaceuticals as an inert solvent or carrier for injectable, oral, and inhaleable medicines. seems comparatively safe

[jberryhill]

33. Because it does not come from tobacco

How is something that has nothing to do with tobacco a "tobacco product"?

[SomethingFishy]

90. Um..because there is no tobacco?

If you want it to be a "tobacco" product, you at least have to have a little tobacco somewhere in the thing...

[SoCalNative]

93. You are aware

that many brands also are available sans nicotine, right? So it's just the vapor, no nicotine.

[MindMover]

3. I would prefer a ban of all pharmaceutical advertising on television ...

and I still do not understand how alcohol advertising has been allowed to continue on public television ...

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Part of it, not enough outrage

That is my opinion.

And those two also do not belong on the tv machine. Even if I find a certain beer advert funny in it's own way, and has become an internet meme. (I don't always drink beer, but...)

[hughee99]

88. Yes, but without the commercials, how would I know what to ask my doctor about when

I'm nervous, sad, tired, have trouble sleeping, listless, depressed, anxious, have dry mouth, sweaty palms, loose stool, constipation and overactive bladder all at the same time?

I guess there's always marijuana.

[pinboy3niner]

94. What a coincidence

That's the list of side effects of one of the meds I saw advertised on TV.

[Liberal Veteran]

101. Symptoms were generally mild and may include dry mouth, coma, blindness, and "fatal events".

[herding cats]

5. The ones I've seen made for pot are designed to put a solid piece of bud into.

There's a chamber and it leaches the THC out of the pot as a vapor without burning it. The ones I've seen used for nicotine use an oil in a pre-filled cartridge. Unless they're selling THC and cocaine oils made for vaporizers, they're two different things.

I don't use either and have no horse in this race. Just mentioning what I've seen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Yes they are

and my county is one of the top producers for those waxes and oils right now, including the explosions that go with it, for those waxes and oils. Hell the last of those was two days ago. It displaced nine families. Thankfully none was killed.

As I said, after listening to multiple experts, they are not as innocent as people want them to be. And the leading edge of research is already being done.

[herding cats]

11. Why they'd want to do that is beyond me.

If you're smoking crack, what do you care if it's a better or worse way for your health to administer the drug? As far as pot goes, why go to that extent if you can just vaporize it in a vaporizer made for the the stuff? People are so weird at times. smh

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Because if I smoke my crack in one of these things

on the bus nobody will give me a second look. If I take out the crack pipe on the other hand...I am paraphrasing an expert here by the way.

[herding cats]

18. Maybe, I guess.

If you're higher than a kite and hitting on a vaporizer in public someone is gonna get suspicious I'd think, or at least I'd hope so. Maybe not, but going by the few people I've seen smoking crack in my lifetime they didn't react to it like a person does to nicotine.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. I am just paraphrasing experts. I report in this case

but after sitting through all that... I was kind of on the fence. Not any more.

They should be treated exactly as other nicotine products, and cigarettes in particular. I don't want them at any public space.

[RandiFan1290]

24. What if the juice contains zero nicotine?

My sister has a pen and the juice she uses is nicotine free. She had a craving for cigs after a year of quitting and I talked her into trying the pen instead.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. According to county staff (heath and Human Services)

And I am quoting from the slide.

"The solutions in electronic smoking devices contain other harmful chemicals including carcinogens, volatile organic compounds, and small particles. (including metals) that can lead to lung disease and other lung problems."

My opinion, we are on the leading edge of that as becoming a serious health problem, so health authorities are trying to stop it before it becomes a real serious issue. They are more concerned about children and youth than anything else.

[OregonBlue]

45. Where was the info coming from. To date, no comprehensive studies have been done on

ecigarettes except in Europe, primarily Sweden. Their analysis showed that there were no known carcinogens in the exhaled vapor, nor was there even a significant trace of nicotine or other harmful chemicals. If they have any actual studies, I'd like to see them but I suspect they are just saying what they want people to believe. Sorta like the big marijuana scare.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Well, since everybody loves anecdotal data

I got an asthma attack around one of these just the other day.

I am pretty sure the head of department is citing things like I don't know NIH, because it is not quite perjury when you say a white lie, to the board of supervisors, but it is pretty damn close.

But the Cancer Society is citing the FDA

https://www.cancer.org/myacs/eastern/areahighlights/cancernynj-news-ny-ecig-health-vote

Here, from these loons

Acetaldehyde (MS)
Benzene (SS)
Cadmium (MS)
Formaldehyde (MS,SS)
Isoprene (SS)
Lead (MS)
Nickel (MS)
Nicotine (MS, SS)
N-Nitrosonornicotine (MS, SS)
Toluene (MS, SS)

https://www.tobacco.ucsf.edu/10-chemicals-identified-so-far-e-cig-vapor-are-california-prop-65-list-carcinogens-and-reproductive

Here, from an actual journal

http://ntr.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/12/10/ntr.ntt203.full

Sorry cannot give you more than the link

Tad more neutral

http://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2013/03/05/tobaccocontrol-2012-050859.abstract

Here is when the FDA did the studies, 2009

http://www.stopcancerfund.org/uncategorized/are-e-cigarettes-safer-than-regular-cigarettes/

Here, a primer from the Oregon Dept of Healht

https://public.health.oregon.gov/PreventionWellness/TobaccoPrevention/SmokefreeWorkplaceLaw/Documents/E-cigFactSheet.pdf

By the way, the policy statement is exactly where we are going.

And to be non biased, a pro vaper paper

http://www.vapersclub.com/8BiggestElectronicCigaretteMythsx.pdf

I think that is enough.

[cthulu2016]

6. Will there be a full list of things that should be regulated as things they are not?

Or are we just going to wing it?

Will we regulate bicycles to auto safety standards?

Will we regulate guns as desert toppings?

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. You will make light of it

for the record, I heard that argument today from the Dais.

[cthulu2016]

29. If he topic is not carcinogenic effect the tobacco analog is a game for

busy-bodies to play to amuse themselves at the expense of others.

When these loons say nicotine in other forms is "just as bad" as tobacco they are just authoritarian crackpots in a circle jerk.

If tobacco did not have tars of a particular character, and smoke chemicals of a particular character, nicotine would be considered much the same as caffiene.

That said, I do think e-cigs should be regulated. Just not as tobacco.

Nocotine replacements (gum, patches, etc.) require being 18 many places, and should be. IMO.

Anything with nicotine should be 18+.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. So let's cut to the chase

you want 4th graders to buy them? Because they are marketed now to fourth graders with familiar graphics like Angry Birds.

[cthulu2016]

39. having just said I think they should be 18+...

I do not think they should be used by 4th graders.

As to whether they should be marketed to 4th graders...

1) There is no longer any such thing as marketing to 4th graders. Folks I know in their 20s and 30s thinks nothing of having a Hello Kitty purse, for instance. People are quite culturally infantile by earlier standards. It was never obvious to me that Joe Camel only appealed to children. And my 1st Amendment sensibilities have always been quite troubled by marketing limitations like "no cartoons"

I am far more concerned, as a social ill, about alcohol being "marketed to minors" by advertising on infantile things like NASCAR, but I am not demanding such a ban because I don't see the world as my playground.

But in the case of cigarettes it was an exceptional situation. Society declared widespread WAR on cigarettes.

And CRACKPOTS will never let a war end. Because they are CRACKPOTS.

So that mode of all-out war must be applied to something new, even though that something new is not bad enough to have warranted the fucking war.

Isn't this just as bad?

NO. It isn't.

Because it is notoriously hard to end wars once one is on a war-footing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Well it is easier to get ahead of the curve in public health

before it becomes a very large issue

And right now they are marketed to fourth graders, and kids are vaping in Junior High. These kids also believe it is both cool and safe.

[cthulu2016]

42. And I am all for telling them otherwise.

I am not, however, in favor of vaping supplies bearing extraordinary taxes and social sanctions/bans as if that is the natural way to deal with everything and they remind somebody of tobacco.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Well, you will be outvoted on this

at least in my state. And I doubt my state will be alone by the way.

Look, this technology came OUT OF CHINA, and it's sole objective is actually to get around bans.

[Liberal Veteran]

67. I'm not sure your information is correct.

Yes, they came out of China, but their sole objective was not to get around bans (I am not sure that was even an objective).

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/25/world/fg-china-cigarettes25

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Well if not intended it has resulted in this

and jurisdictions, one after the other, as well as school districts and colleges and universities are adding these devices to their non smoking policies. That is a fact jack, and you can take that to the bank.

[Liberal Veteran]

71. I really don't have an issue with banning their use in indoor public spaces. Outdoors?

That seems a bit much.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. Well for the same reason they don't want people smoking at the beach

debris.

In that cases it is the filters. Some of these devices are disposable.

[Liberal Veteran]

78. So are plastic bottles, snack wrappers, disposable cups, soda cans....

I'd probably go so far as to say, while some e-cigs are disposable, they are less disposable than many use once and discard items since they are not designed to be as disposable as a candy bar wrapper or a cigarette butt.

If that is really an issue, wouldn't a littering ordinance be more appropriate? (ie, if you toss your e-cig on the ground instead of a waste basket, you get a ticket for littering)

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. And my local beaches have tightly and enforced regulations

including no alcohol after a few nasty fights, and near riot a few years back.

They have included trash, bottles and a few other lovely things.

It is so bad that people have gotten around the beer ban by floating off shore.

http://media.nbcsandiego.com/images/654*491/KNSD_Floating_Around_the_Beach_Beer_090809_78_mezzn_640x480.jpg

Locally this is known as floatopia. People like to always try to get around rules

What is hilarious is that merchants were angry at the rules, but those same rules have increased business.

[Liberal Veteran]

97. We certainly wouldn't want roving bands of violent nicotine junkies disturbing the beach.

But wouldn't it be easier to just say, "Hey, maybe my debris argument wasn't a very a good one."?

It does however seem a bit silly to me when a beach smells like a rotten coconut threw up on it (because of sun tan lotions) that people are worried about someone vaping a substance they couldn't smell if they were in the next bathroom stall, much less a breezy beach.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. Depends on what you put on that vaping device

that is point number one, second point, yes, they get worried about filers, so should you. They kill wildlife too.

[Liberal Veteran]

112. So, your argument is fairly specious.

People can and do fill their canteen with alcoholic beverages.

People can and do eat marijuana brownies or cookies.

People can and do put ecstasy and other substances in normal pill bottles.

Therefore, canteens, food items, and pill bottles must be banned on the off chance someone might use these items in a manner that is inconsistent with it's original purpose?

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. No, that is not my argument

that is the Sierra Club's argument

And AB 1142 is supposed to address it

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/13-14/bill/asm/ab_1101-1150/ab_1142_cfa_20130415_182426_asm_comm.html

You now must write your California legislator, especially if they serve in the committee, and educate them.

[zappaman]

81. Don't forget disposable diapers

which assholes leave on the beach all the time.
Gross.
Must be so hard to walk over up to 40 yards to a trash can.

[Jesus Malverde]

46. Do you have a link for this? The angry bird vape?

I am calling BS.

Why would anyone, in the vaporizer market need to go after children. The market is full of adults wanting the product, there is no shortage of adult customers. The market is wide open as people see these as effective tools to manage their nicotine addiction.

Whats obvious is reduced revenue streams for programs funded by tobacco as people switch to non taxed products. Don't be distracted this isn't about the children, it's about a huge loss of revenue for the state.

Cigarette tax increase sought to fund brain and stem cell research
http://www.centralvalleybusinesstimes.com/stories/001/?ID=25394

Obama to announce Tobacco Tax plan for funding Pre K

Katy Grimes: A newly released federal study reports that California has not only used very little of the billions of dollars in tobacco tax and tobacco settlement money it receives, the state has raided the tobacco fund to plug budget holes.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recently reported that only 6 percent of the funds collected from cigarette taxes and funds from a 1998 tobacco lawsuit settlement went to tobacco programs in California.

This is what happens when governments collect targeted tax money with few specifications on how that money is to be spent.

With all of the recent press for and against Proposition 29, “The California Cancer Research Act,” which claims to be another tobacco tax aimed at preventing children from smoking, or helping smokers quit the habit, this could end up being a bottomless pit of funds.

But with Prop 29, there aren’t even any restrictions requiring that the money be spent in California. Prop 29 will add another $1.00 tax to each $5.19 pack of cigarettes in California. The tax is expected to generate $735 million a year and create a new, expensive state bureaucracy.

But the CDC study shows that states have a bad habit of not using tobacco taxes for tobacco education or cessation.

http://calwatchdog.com/2012/05/31/state-raids-tobacco-tax-money/

Money money money...every day less for the state as people switch to tobacco tax free vaping.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Yup, and I did not think I would have to look for it

since I usually do not think the people at the American Heart Association would lie

Forget the image, how about Beau Biden? You think the attorney General is lying?

http://news.delaware.gov/2013/09/30/biden-calls-for-ban-on-e-cigarette-sales-to-kids-restrictions-on-advertising/

[Jesus Malverde]

49. Nadine!

http://vapur.us/

Those are reusable bottles similar to sigg or nalgene, "Vapur Anti-Bottles"

They have nothing to do with tobacco, vaping or the promotion of vaporizers to children. Please find a citation that people are marketing angry bird vaporizers for children. I'm calling bullshit on organizations that face funding cuts from less people smoking.

Reusable
Vapur Anti-Bottles are BPA-free and are constructed of three layers of ultra-durable plastic. The innermost layer is made from FDA-approved polyethylene, which is then bonded to two layers of nylon for strength and durability. Every Anti-Bottle is designed to withstand everyday use and regular cleaning. The inner layer is odor, taste and stain resistant, so it can safely be reused again and again! The Anti-Bottle is also proudly made in the USA.

Foldable
The Anti-Bottle is designed to stand when full and can be rolled, folded or flattened when empty, making it easy to use and carry everywhere you go. Unlike rigid water bottles, that are bulky when empty, the Anti-Bottle can be easily tucked away, conveniently fitting into pockets, purses and packs. The Vapur Anti-Bottle is simply the most portable, reusable water bottle on the planet.

Washable
We often get asked, what is the best way to clean an Anti-Bottle? Well, good news! The Vapur Anti-Bottle is dishwasher safe and cleans easily on the top rack of most dishwashers. First, remove the cap and carabiner, blow a little air into the bottle to inflate, then turn upside down and insert the spout over the prongs on the top rack of your dishwasher. It's that easy!
If you put any liquid other than water in your bottle, we recommend that you hand wash, using a few drops of dish soap and a bottle brush to completely remove any residue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. So you think both the American Heart Association and Attorney General Beau Biden are lying?

I am asking a very serious question.

E-cigarette sales have doubled every year for the past 5 years, and unlike traditional tobacco products, there are no federal advertising restrictions or age restrictions on their sale. Moreover, children are lured into buying the products, which are sold in fruit and candy flavors such as cherry, chocolate, gummy bear, and bubble gum, and they are branded to appeal to children, including images from the popular video game Angry Birds. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 1 in 10 high school students reported that they had tried an e-cigarette last year, double the number from 2011, and 1.8 million middle and high school students said they had tried e-cigarettes in 2012.

http://news.delaware.gov/2013/09/30/biden-calls-for-ban-on-e-cigarette-sales-to-kids-restrictions-on-advertising/

He is not alone in that request. Many Attorney Generals have done this.

[Jesus Malverde]

54. I'm asking for a link for a vaporizer with angry birds for sale.

Or a picture of one that was for sale in the past.

Repeating something without substance is just that. Lets settle this with a picture of an angry bird labeled vaporizer marketed to kids.

It's a myth or a lie unless linked otherwise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. I am sorry, but I believe those who say it is a problem

I am sure neither the Attorney General or the American Heart want to spread lies. But that is just me. And since I have done that research, thanks, I will include Beau Biden's little statement.

Suffice it to say, next you will tell me that some of the other things claimed, like TCH becoming something like ear wax with butane is not happening either. (And we all have imagined the explosions)

It is not one Attorney general, it is 40 of them

http://www.ecigadvanced.com/blog/40-attorneys-general-urge-fda-to-regulate-e-cigs/

[Jesus Malverde]

63. I understand why they want to regulate them.

They face millions in lost tax revenue.

Because of this, they make up stories to scare the public.

Your angry bird vaporizer.....does not exist.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Well, aparently ejuice monkeys, does not exist either

http://ejuicemonkeys.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=54

(That is a monkey. remember Joe Camel)

sarcasm

And neither do these guys.

Magic Puff City E-cigarettes

http://cityecigarettes.com/

(The cute disposable one with the monkey is really lovely)

Except a simple search of the google led me to them, and cartoon ways of marketing, and fruit flavors, with names such as "angry birds."

Look, you might get why they want to regulate them from a tax side of it. I don't want kids touching this, and if adults want to, by all means, with all the regulations as cigarettes and other tobacco products.


You have a wonderful day, and here is the letter sent.

http://www.mass.gov/ago/docs/press/2013/e-cigarette-letter.pdf

Now your turn.

[Codeine]

110. So is this a denial, or a non-denial denial?

Can't tell anymore.

[PeaceNikki]

185. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST, MONKEYS?!?!? Think of the children?!?

Yes, the logo is *just* like Joe Camel!




lol

I actually buy from them. They're great! EVERY flavor juice is available in nicotine free. Also, most of these places are lovely little mom and pop shops you're trying to shut down. That one included. You should be thoroughly ashamed for using them as an example of poor standards and/or marketing/selling to minors.

http://ejuicemonkeys.com/index.php?main_page=about_us

Our Commitment to You...

We are committed to providing quality products and information to adult smokers seeking an alternative to traditional tobacco smoking. We are diligent about quality control, safety, education and service. The electronic cigarette industry is in its infancy and as such is not yet regulated in the United States. For that reason, we are all the more mindful of the importance of maintaining quality business practices, and we are aware of the impact our actions can have on the future of the industry. While there are not yet formal industry-wide standards in place, we voluntarily adhere to proposed regulations set forth by The Tobacco Vapor Electronic Cigarette Association, as well as additional standards and regulations proposed by professional members of the industry.

We're fully committed to providing products only to adults of legal smoking age. Payments generated from student payment accounts will be rejected and purchases will be canceled. If we have any reason to believe a purchase is being made by a minor, or for a minor, we will cancel the purchase immediately. We reserve the right, and will take action to restrict IP addresses from accessing or purchasing from our site.

We are further committed to advocate for the e-cigarette industry by approaching policy-makers and interested organizations, by supporting scientific and academic research and the development of industry standards, and by promoting public awareness and education on the true nature of the e-cigarette and its users. As funds permit, we help to financially support these activities and endeavors, and look toward the development of and membership in associations promoting the same.

We welcome any comments or suggestions and look forward to serving you. Please be responsible with your usage of any e-cigarette, e-juices and related components.

Thank you for visiting, we hope you enjoy our site!
Sharon & Alan

[nadinbrzezinski]

192. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

Well, I like living in a county moving in the right direction. Avoid my county.

[PeaceNikki]

194. lol. what the fuck ever. that company has far more integrity than you.

you know nothing about them and use them as some fucking example of... how little you know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

197. You might want to hit a few Attorney Generals while you are at it

But thank you.

[PeaceNikki]

198. "hit"? WTF are you talking about?

know what?

I actually really don't care.

But you should stop slandering small businesses with whom you're wholly unfamiliar, mrs. reporterlady.

Oh, and the plural is "Attorneys General". But since you're a reporter, you probably knew that, no?

[nadinbrzezinski]

204. Remember to include in your slander suit

more than a Few State Attorney Generals

http://www.mass.gov/ago/docs/press/2013/e-cigarette-letter.pdf

And small businesses... m'kay, given that big tobacco has entered the game big time, we will see for how long

And I don't care you don't care.

Suffice it to say, next time I find something at work this fascinating, I will keep it to myself.

Oh and include in your lawsuit for slander, my county dept of health and my county board of supervisors. And it is just not them.

Enjoy your vaps, just don't do it around me.

[PeaceNikki]

207. I was talking about the company that YOU dragged into this thread, brainiac.

The small mom and pop shop.

Oh, and the plural is "Attorneys General". But since you're a reporter, you probably knew that, no?

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. Oh and here is the jacket showing the angry birds

http://www.whitecloudelectroniccigarettes.com/vapor-jacket-collection-13/

Damn it, you were saying?

[Liberal Veteran]

118. Wait! So because people can buy customized accessories for their e-cig....

....they are marketing to children?

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. So the increase in youth using these devices is a conspiracy made up by the CDC?

I guess it is.

[Liberal Veteran]

143. Of course their is an increase. There is also an increase in the # of adults using these devices.

Since they didn't exist 10 years ago on the market.

Same thing could be said about cell phones.

When I was growing up, their was increase in the number of kids drinking wine coolers when Bartles & Jaymes first started marketing their wine coolers.

Around 3 percent of teens use e-cigs according to the CDC.

Of course, when you take into account that 14% of teens smoke cigarettes according the same CDC....make of that what you will.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. and we all should encourage their use

[Mariana]

160. We should discrourage their use among minors

and leave adults alone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

162. Sorry, but I do not want vapors or smoke.

You want to use them, by all means, not around me.

[PeaceNikki]

184. omg, i literally lol'd at the hello kitty beer.

literally.

[Jesus Malverde]

199. Good Job

Thanks Nadine!

[nadinbrzezinski]

201. I do not know for what

next time I have something this interesting, I am keeping to myself, (and my readers)

[Jesus Malverde]

202. Finding the link to the angry birds wrap.

I'm impressed. I argued it didn't exist and you proved me wrong.

[nadinbrzezinski]

206. No, it was not me, it was several State Attorney Generals

http://www.mass.gov/ago/docs/press/2013/e-cigarette-letter.pdf

They go further into the issues in there

[PeaceNikki]

208. *Attorneys General

[nadinbrzezinski]

217. Whatever, done for the day?

I am serious.

You know who you remind me off right now? My dad, may he rest in peace. Smoking was never, ever going to affect him and all those science studies back in the 1970s and 80s, well, what would they know?

His last year he was on O2, with severe COPD.

I don't wish you that, but given it was the 70s when the first longitudinal studies started to emerge and it will take at least another five...

[PeaceNikki]

219. So now you're Bill Frist?

awesome

[nadinbrzezinski]

223. Nope, I am not, but you are into personal attacks I see

It is called longitudinal study and public health, look it up, or perhaps better not.

So with no further, it is time we say our permanent good byes.

Good bye

[PeaceNikki]

224. Promise?

[sad-cafe]

182. I agree

there is a lot of deep doo doo in this thread.

Asthma attacks from someone else vaping? BS

marketing to 4th graders? BS

[krawhitham]

165. example?

[nadinbrzezinski]

167. Here, even cited by a few Attorney Generals to letter to the FDA

but here is the jacket

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4647583

[krawhitham]

168. that is an after market product not sold by any manufacture of e-cigs

and I assume no adults play angry birds?

[nadinbrzezinski]

171. No, that is a product sold at the website of one purveyor of the product

again, cited by attorney generals (and a witness today) relating to children.

http://www.mass.gov/ago/docs/press/2013/e-cigarette-letter.pdf

Remember Joe Camel? I am sure you do. The industry also jumped up and down that it was not meant for kids.

In case you have forgotten him...

[frazzled]

10. You can use drinking straws and spoons to deliver cocaine

That part of your argument is kind of silly.

As someone who quit smoking cigarettes after more than 40 years simply by picking up an e-cig (and I'd tried the gum and patch to no avail), I feel they should be regulated like other smoking cessation aids. I'd be fine with prohibiting the goofy flavors that might appeal to kids--limit it to tobacco flavor only. They already prohibit the sale of any e-cigarette product to anyone under 18. Of course kids get them: but they just as easily get alcohol, tobacco, and illegal drugs.

[SirRevolutionary]

150. That part drives me nuts too

Rolled up dollar bills are used to snort coke...let's ban money.

I'm NOT ok with banning "goofy" flavors. I vape zero nicotine cinnamon flavor. Do we ban goofy flavored alcohol because it might "appeal to kids"? Does sex and violence in media appeal to kids? Do we ban that?

If you use nicotine in your vape, then it could be considered a cessation aid. No nicotine? Then what should it be regulated as?

Also, weed is slowly becoming legal. It's much better to vape weed than smoke weed. Smoke is bad for your lungs. So shouldn't people who can legally use MJ be able to vape it instead of smoke it?

[Mariana]

12. I'd like to know how they're used for crack cocaine.

That doesn't even make sense. Perhaps they can be modified to do it, but I can't think how it would be done.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Expert said they are transformed into a waxy oil

like the TCH from marihuana.

Some of the things one learns in otherwise dull government hearings.

[jberryhill]

36. You still have to modify a standard ecig to make it compatible with that

Your "expert" doesn't know very much if he thinks you can vape the wax or oil in a standard ecig.

[Jesus Malverde]

56. Liquid meth might be more credible.

These banners have an agenda outside of protecting peoples health.

[Sgent]

17. It is a tobacco product

-- and claims about quitting smoking are to be taken with a grain of salt since no one has ever studied if they work. However, I'm not sure if you could ethically do such a study for more than about 2 weeks.

That being said, we have very good studies from Sweden that harm reduction does work (snus). It saves lives and a lot of them. It stands to reason that e-cigs would be at least as effective since they are more enjoyable to smokers.

They are IMHO a tobacco product and a drug delivery system, and should be regulated as such in terms of availability to minors. That doesn't meant they are the same product as cigarettes and should be regulated like them.

I don't buy the issue with marijuana and crack at all. People have had nebulizing mj pipes for at least 20 years.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Well, County Dept of Health cited WHO statistics

that say smoke cessation aid is anecdotal. Yup, guess what I am going to be doing? Trying to find the dang study.

here.

Thought it would take me longer to find it... not a study, just a statement for the record

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2008/pr34/en/

[Mariana]

34. It is anecdotal

but that doesn't mean it isn't very effective for smoking cessation for many people. I know it worked brilliantly for me, and I haven't smoked for almost three years now - there's one anecdote for you. I can't imagine how to do a proper double-blind study on whether e-cigs work to help people stop smoking better than other methods, although it could be done to compare e-cigs with nicotine vs. e-cigs without it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. They could do the studies

and I suspect sooner or later they will

But they are being marketed that way.

[Bluenorthwest]

92. It's the best way to stop, just ask the millions who have done so. The patch? Gave me

insomnia, overly realistic dreams, anxiety and a terrible rash. Doctor also recommended some freaky phrama like Welbutrin. E-cigs prevent smoking.
Here's what's in the vape I use:
Four main ingredients in e-liquid:
1.USP Propylene Glycol
2.USP Vegetable Glycerin
3.Food Flavorings
4.Nicotine
USP Propylene Glycol:

What’s it used in?
Foods, drinks, injection medication, asthma inhalers, non-toxic antifreeze and many other products.

Where does it come from?
Propylene Glycol is an indirect derivative of petroleum production.

** The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has classified propylene glycol as an additive that is "generally recognized as safe" for use in food.

USP Vegetable Glycerin

What’s it used in?
Cough syrup, toothpaste, hand lotion, soaps, flavor extracts, facial cleansing oils, hair conditioner, baking.

Where does it come from?
Vegetable Glycerine is produced from plant oils, typically palm, coconut or soy.

** The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has classifieded vegetable glycerine as an additive that is "generally recognized as safe" for use in food.

Food Flavorings

We use only FDA approved flavorings for human consumption. Our flavors are
specially formulated for use in electronic cigarettes.

Nicotine

We use only the highest quality organic nicotine extract. Our e-liquid is not organic, only the nicotine we use is certified organic.


So when you start saying there's heavy metals in them and such, you and your County sound a bit misinformed.

[truedelphi]

125. And a thinking person has to wonder just who it is behind the mis information.

Seems like it is the big cigarette companies that are behind the efforts to diss the e-cigs.

[Sgent]

35. I agree with the statement

but we do know the following from actual studies:

1) nicotine replacement reduces the amount of smoking. We know that from the myriad of substitute products on the market.

2) even if we look at only substitution products (with no intention to quit), the deaths due to nicotine use dropped precipitously when alternative products are available. The Swiss study on snus was large and very well done.

3) increasing regulation of alternative products results in a larger number of deaths. When snus was regulated out of the Swiss marketplace, the number of tobacco related deaths increased.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Those studies have been done under controlled conditions

Staff also quoted data that supports this being a problem with the youth, which actually picks up smoking harder than adults trying to quit

There needs to be a lot of this, and you you ethically do it, is a good question

[Luminous Animal]

69. They contain zero tobacco; thus, not a tobacco product.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Some contain Nicotine

how is that NOT a tobacco product?

Some do not, but sone do. Why some are sold to minors legally, and others are not.

[Gravitycollapse]

100. That's like saying anything with caffeine is coffee.

And if you believe that, then you fundamentally misunderstand what it is we are talking about.

[Liberal Veteran]

108. This is giving me a headache. Time to take an Excedrin coffee pill.

Excedrin = Acetaminophen, aspirin, and caffeine = coffee.

[Luminous Animal]

109. Is nicotine gum a tobacco product? The patch? Tomatoes?

Tobacco is a specific thing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. Nicotine gum is actually regulated by the Food and Drug Administration

[Luminous Animal]

193. Yes. But not as a tobacco product.

[nadinbrzezinski]

200. Before long, you will see it,

from a slew of local jurisdictions.

Suffice it to say, I posted this since I thought it was interesting to me. I will not make that mistake again.

My county has no news

[Luminous Animal]

210. It will be regulated as a nicotine product. To do otherwise would contribute to our increasing

stupidity.

[nadinbrzezinski]

213. Which is what I posted on the OP

But I will not post any from any local board, hyperlocal, city council, or anything like that here. Or labor for that matter.

My county officially does not exist unless CNN covers it.

[Lex]

23. Are the nicotine delivery systems of patches and gum regulated?

Maybe they are, I don't know. Is the e-cig just another way to deliver nicotine without the smoke of the tobacco leaf itself?

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Yes, by FDA

And the e-cigs deliver quite a bit of nasties like heavy metals. (like the cigarettes) the only thing they don't, is tar.

The ONLY warning these things have is that they have nicotine. And if they happen not to have it, they can be sold to minors. By the way, pretty much cliff's notes. I need to check on my sound to see how good that came out.

[Bluenorthwest]

103. That's incorrect. Which is why you have no link.

You sound like a Big Cig shill, Nadin. I'm disappointed.

[truedelphi]

121. It does sound weird, and

that it is coming from Nadin is strange.

I mean, okay so some people are using these devices for crack or wax or whatever.

But on the otehr hand, some people use cars as get away devices when they rob banks. But should we outlaw cars, because outlaws use them?

Seems very much like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[TheKentuckian]

26. Yay, more drug worrier horseshit. Used for weed and coke? Am I supposed to care?

Folks can invest what they want how they want. The rest is "they said" with no reasoning. Why do you think that this non tobacco, smokeless system should be treated like cigarettes? Religion?

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Because it has nicotine many times, in fact it is sold as a nicotine delivery device,

and because it is not cool.

But you can call it horseshit.

I know how the Board voted, and I know it will not be popular among the libertarian types. Now I need to check on sound, and outline an article. They did not just talk this, but you see, there was NOT A ONE person testifying in favor of this. That should tell you something here.

[truedelphi]

127. Do you have actual names of any of these people testifying?

Any names? One name?

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. Yes, actually, plenty of them, like 18 on tape

I know you have doubts. Now I said it before, and I will say it again. I will not post the article here. Nor do I need to prove one thing to you. I was there this morning.

[truedelphi]

144. Look, hundreds of eminent scientiss decided that the state of Calif should regulate gasoline to

Be "Cleaner" and "better in performance" for air quality and mileage, and to contain MTBE.

All those preeminent researchers and heads of university chemistry departments and of course lobbyists, and that is how we arrived at having the toxic element MTBE in our gasoline.

And the MTBE issue became a several years' long struggle of average citizens to undo what those in authority said had to be.

Now this.

Anyway, if you post something on line, you should have to offer up a name or two. The fact that someone appears before your county staff is meaningless.

Even PHD's and being awarded titles like "most eminent in the field" can be meaningless.

Nancy Balter was "most eminent" in the field of MTBE research, and when I interviewed her, she did not even know that MTBE breaks down into formaldehyde once it goes through an
automobile's combustion chamber. (Sort of like saying you' re a coffee expert, but admit to having never heard of the term "Caffeine.&quot But hey, she advocated for MTBE and got a lot of cushy jobs from industry after her helping them out so much.

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. Well, this is somethign that is not limited to my corner of the country

It is a national trend

And that is all I have to say. I just will add this. I shan't post any of my articles here, at all. But this one, I went there for something that I expected fireworks, not this. As far as I could tell this is as controversial, at least there. as water is wet.

And likely this will also be the last of those posts I do from what I am actually up to, as in work.

It is getting to teh point, that if I say the sky is blue, and has Oxygen, it is not blue and it has no oxygen

[truedelphi]

158. What brings in the controversy is the conflation.

So e-cigs can be awful, claim the anti-drug forces, as well as Big Tobacco. As the e-cigs are sometimes used for THC or worse.

But throwing the baby out with the bath water is never a good idea.

It seems to me that there are plenty of legal provisions already in existence to handle illegal behavior.

But making illegal an item that is helping people get out from under their cigarette addiction seems weird. And I know from watching some YouTubes of Major Networks Talking Heads that the anti Drug Forces are really putting on a lot of heat, with discussions about Wax and trying to get everyone afraid of the legalizing of marijuana.

Why? Over the years, the drug war has allowed one trillion dollars to go to the alphabet agencies, and to local police forces.

All those yummy seizures of property when someone is arrested for selling pot. All the lucrative prison contracts, and the for profit prison industry monies will all be going way, once marijuana is legal. (My community just received some 22 millions of dollars to remodel its 100 cell/bed jail! That is two and a half times what the school district gets to run the school system!)

[nadinbrzezinski]

161. What conflation?

Before today I did not have much of an opinion, after it I just want them regulated, like cigarettes, not banned. And I do not want them in kid's hands. If that is conflating, I guess indeed the atmosphere has zero percent oxygen.

[SidDithers]

43. "Oh and don't expect me to post the story here"...

Sid

[Skeeter Barnes]

52. Have you tried unpluggin' it and pluggin' it back in?

[sad-cafe]

51. is there anything you don't know

I am amazed

[Ruby the Liberal]

53. Judge Leon disagrees

His 2010 ruling against the FDA to consider them tobacco products and regulate them as drug delivery devices. FDA lost their appeals on both.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/14/AR2010011402995.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Well the judge will be busy pounding down local policies across multiple states

But thanks, I did not honestly look for a Federal court ruling on something like this.

I will make sure I include it in the report. Now I need to find out what president appointed him? That, for some strange reason, matters under AP standards.

Thank you again.

[Ruby the Liberal]

58. Shrub. In 2001.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Leon

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. By the way that judge was appointed by Dubya

in 2001

[sad-cafe]

62. My son in law used to smoke 3 packs a day with E-Cigs he has been smoke free 10 months

he has lost weight, breathes better and has not smoked a cig

I will take it and so will our daughter

[Major Nikon]

82. Here's a thought, why not study these things BEFORE trying to regulate it?

Very little is known about e-cigs other than they are a nicotine delivery device. Do they cause cancer? Answer: unknown. So why jump on the bandwagon to regulate something when the actual harm caused by it could be less than a cup of coffee? Furthermore the down sides to regulation aren't known either. What if this product actually manages to get a significant number of people off cigarettes which actually are known to be a significant health risk? Regulation could potentially be counterproductive to overall public health and welfare.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. Because according to staff they have enough information on them already

to not want to encourage their use.

Moreover, stay ahead of the curve, not all deliver nicotine, and they are popular with kids.

[Major Nikon]

96. There is no information I've seen that suggests they are more harmful than coffee

Which isn't regulated. Perhaps they are and perhaps they aren't. As far as the ones that deliver things other than nicotine, those other things are already highly regulated.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. And perhaps the people who testified today

are all wrong.

I don't know. I just know that I was pretty agnostic until today. I admit, having seen my dad die from COPD, which when he started smoking, well cigs were A-Ok and everybody smoked.

The fact that the tobacco companies are marketing to kids really gives me the creeps by the way.

[Sissyk]

116. Drinking is also popular with some kids.

Real tobacco products are popular with some kids.

All you can do is guide your kids, not mine.

[Warpy]

83. Most of the "juice" is just that, liquid

so it's a bit of a stretch for me to figure out how the units can be used to smoke solid substances that don't go into solution well.

I think some DEA guy was pulling everybody's leg because he wants to keep getting a paycheck.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. Actually if yuo are referring to the THC, we have had a few explosions here

due to those labs, and depending on how much you concentrate it, how much of a wax or liquid it will remain.

Perhaps, it is possible, we all have imagined the explosions, and it is a DEA plot, I don't know.

The last of those happened, I think, 48 hours ago.

As to the rest, well, I guess it is ok for kids to have access to the ones without nicotine.

And yes, after listening to experts, including the loons at American Heart and American Lung, I now lie on the side of regulating these things and keeping them out of the hands of kids. Nor do I want second hand vapor.

[Sgent]

95. Part 1

I have no trouble with. I also have no problem with actually regulating / testing the vapor like any other food product or similar for safety.

You (or more likely the DEA, etc.) has yet to explain why they can't be safely manufactured, since the main inert ingredients are the same things used to disburse asthma medication (glycol, etc.), household fragrances, etc.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Well you can go ask the FDA

I am working on the article that will NOT be posted here. I just said, (and I knew it was not going to be popular), that further and further regulations are coming.

[Warpy]

98. It sounds more like a bunch of bathtub chemists who are trying to make it work

but haven't done so as yet. I'm not terribly optimistic that they will unless they switch to alcohol.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. They have made it work

these inserts are already being sold.

As to the bathtub chemists, yup... and it is butane related.

[Hippo_Tron]

87. I'm all for banning the sale of highly addictive substances to minors, but...

I do see a lot of negativity towards these products that I think is unwarranted. We don't know for certain that they're safe, but you can say that about most prescription medications especially when they first come onto the market. If you can't quit smoking for whatever reason, e-cigarettes are IMO a good decision.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. According to the WHO, quitting is anecdotal

So I guess we will have to wait for those studies.

As is, Many attorney generals, and jurisdictions are just trying to get ahead of the curve, and the kids, is a problem.

[Hippo_Tron]

91. I'm not talking about quitting...

I'm talking about if you're going to be addicted to nicotine for the rest of your life, getting it through water vapor is very likely going to be better for your health than getting it through tobacco smoke. Like I said, it's a good option for people who can't quit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. Well, if they are going to Vap, do it away from me

I don't want the vapors.

[pintobean]

120. Too late

I really think so.

[Brickbat]

166. .

[pintobean]

173. St. Patrick's Day is coming up

so, I think it's time for this.

[truedelphi]

123. I agree. It seems to me that the way the "authorities" are getting these devices

To have a bad reputation is to say they are used for this or that illegal purpose,. Which is also true of every other item in the world.

Cars are used as get away vehicles in bank robberies. Paper was used to smoke marijuana.

Do we outlaw cars and paper?

Do we throw the baby out with the bath water?

[Gravitycollapse]

99. You should inform these "experts" that e-cigarettes contain no tobacco...

And thus are not tobacco products by simple logic that even a grade schooler could comprehend.

[Mariana]

113. But they have nicotine!

Never mind that there's nicotine in lots of other plants. It's not exclusive to tobacco.

[Gravitycollapse]

135. It exists in thousands of plant species. Not to mention you can chemically isolate it...

And introduce it to an endless array of other products.

As I said upthread, the OPs argument would be like saying anything with caffeine in it is coffee.

[Brickbat]

119. Journalism, do you even?

You are a lobbyist's dream.

[truedelphi]

131. ^^^^^^^^ n/t

[ZombieHorde]

129. Were the decisions scientifically based?

Have there been peer-reviewed studies on e-cigs?

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. They are starting actually

[pintobean]

142. along with wind turbines

[SirRevolutionary]

145. My cousin's friend's coworker's collegue's uncle's sister said...

they're like bath salts and turn users into zombies. Therefore, it must be true. Don't ask me to back that up with actual science though, I'm tired now and watching TV.

[nadinbrzezinski]

154. You mean like the County Health Department?

I guess they got their information out of gum wrappers. yup, must be that.

[SirRevolutionary]

155. With actual scientific proof?

Or wait, I just heard this from you. Ecigs have been around for a long time. Where's the big scary zombie-creating scientific evidence the anti's speak of?

[nadinbrzezinski]

163. Well I guess the idiots at CDC and FDA and WHO, all cited

By county health, are part of the conspiracy.

So what are your credentials?

Never mind, don't bother answering...we are just anti's

[SirRevolutionary]

186. Oh, the CDC and WHO who say we need more studies

and the FDA with their failed attempt to regulate ecigs as nicotine delivery devices, which contain currently FDA-approved ingredients and even admit that ecigs that DO contain nicotine have far LESS than other FDA-approved cessation methods?

What shall we do with the ecigs that contain zero nicotine by the way? I keep asking this. I dont' hear any answers though. If there's zero nicotine, what then shall we call vapes? Shall we ban them, regulate them when they're already using FDA-approved ingredients (minus the nicotine if we're talking about vapes with ZERO nicotine)?

What are your credentials, other than posting "my county health folks cited some mysterious reports (maybe?) from the FDA, CDC, and WHO and they changed my mind, let's regulate them as tobacco products"? Shall we regulate the zero nicotine vapes as tobacco products as well? If there is zero nicotine, and not one other chemical that has anything in the world to do with smoking cigarettes, it seems illogical to regulate ALL vapes as tobacco products, wouldn't you say?

[nadinbrzezinski]

189. I am a reporter, I cover the news

That is all. And after listening to experts, I want them regulated.

There is more to what I have done in the past, but trust me, last time I post anything happening in my county. I found this fascinating, but my county, while in the US, is not there because I live there.

Suffice it to say, I trust my county health, and realize people are falling for Phillip Morris propaganda. Fifty years from now your descendants will have a repeat of that fiasco.

Suffice it to say, we are behind other jurisdictions, and that is all.

[SirRevolutionary]

195. Phillip Morris propaganda?

I'll take a stab at what I think you're saying. The fact that Big Tobacco is being sued left and right for purposely manipulating nicotine levels in analog cigarettes for decades means they'll do it to the ecig technology they're currently buying up? No doubt, I'm with you there. I honestly would not want to purchase any ecig tech from a company owned/operated by Big Tobacco.

That does NOT mean current ecig technology is bad/evil/zombie creating/harmful, etc. Vapes are helping smokers quit and stay quit. They're helping end a ancient curse on humanity. They've been out for years, much longer than you realize. And in all this time there are NO definitive studies showing they cause harm at all? No, let's not ban things that cause no harm until you can prove they do.

If/when you can prove some models with some vapor and ingredients cause harm to someone somehow, let's deal with that. Wouldn't you want to see the technology succeed and continue to free smokers from the shackles of Big Tobacco and analog cigarettes forever?

[nadinbrzezinski]

196. A little research might help

http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2014/02/03/more-e-cigarettes-in-the-hands-of-big-tobacco/

http://www.cigbuyer.com/big-tobacco-interest-e-cigarettes-hurts-vapers/

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/big-tobacco-invests-e-cigarettes-132157877.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/moneybuilder/2013/06/19/will-e-cigarettes-save-big-tobacco/

Do you want me to keep going?

[SirRevolutionary]

203. Oh gosh no....

Thank you for helping me prove my point though....

Yes, indeed as I said before, does anyone really doubt Big Tobacco WON'T buy up and bastardize ecig technology? Gosh, I hope not! I have faith in them now, certainly they've learned their lesson and won't revert to pure greed again getting people hooked on their products by manipulating nicotine levels and effectively "freebasing" nicotine!

Of course they will. I sincerely DOUBT they'll buy up ecig tech and do the best they can to make sure people can vape in peace and purchase what they want AND maintain personal and public health by keeping the technology clean with scientific studies to back them up. Apparently, you agree by providing those links to support some small part of your original argument which was "regulate ecigs as tobacco immediately, if not ban it all".

What IF, for example, some many years from now some smart entrepreneur maintains his/her current ecig company and vows to keep the vapor clean, non-addictive, and out of the hands of Big Tobacco? Let's not even get into the nicotine argument, because there's a big barrel of scientific evidence that will end up providing a gigantic fail for those claiming nicotine is the evil many people wish it to be in the anti-smoking argument. It's not nicotine that's harmful, it's the 400 friggin chemicals inside combustible cigarettes that kill.

[nadinbrzezinski]

205. What, big tobacco is now in the game

what?

Head in sand much!!!!

[SirRevolutionary]

209. Er....apparently your head IS in the sand

Did you not read anything I took the time to write? Or are you just arguing with the "dude smoking in your head"?

[nadinbrzezinski]

215. Aparently you are into personal attacks,

so good bye.

I do not alert any more, I just ignore, good bye

Have a good long life, and enjoy your cigs.

[SirRevolutionary]

221. Nay, not at all...

I didn't write "Head in sand much!!!!". Or "enjoy your cigs", why...I don't smoke, friend My life is great though, thank you! And I don't know what you'd alert on exactly?

I merely pointed out that you were proving my point. We agree on one point about our ecig argument.

I actually agreed with many of your posts in the past. I know I don't post often, but I have been around DU for a longggggg time lurking and I don't often write for precisely this reason. It ends in a shit storm. Better to gather my news and hear people's views on topics than join in and end up in arguments that end with "I'll alert on you and/or ignore you" constantly.

[Liberal Veteran]

212. I'm not sure I follow the logic people are using.

1. Big Tobacco is losing customers to mom and pop e-cig companies.
2. Big Tobacco tries to hop on the train after it left the station.
3. Therefore, e-cigs are bad!

I think Big Tobacco releasing their overpriced crappy e-cigs are causing a big case guilt by association.

[nadinbrzezinski]

216. No, goes beyond that, but thanks for trying

Free clue, that was NOT the argument made by county staff

[PeaceNikki]

218. So, the arguments they presented were: weed, crack and Angry Birds?

That's all you presented in your OP. Not convinced.

[nadinbrzezinski]

220. Well the article will *not be posted here*

so that is all I can tell you. Much more than that, but hell, what can I say? It really does not matter, enjoy your habit.

I mean, the long presentation by staff is covered in the article. And it really does not matter, since they are safe and we should give them to kids.



Yup, that is what I got here from posters.

[PeaceNikki]

222. you don't know shit about me. kthxbai

[SirRevolutionary]

227. I agree entirely!

Big Tobacco was being sued left and right, tobacco is legal, and it's killing people. Big Tobacco purposely (admittedly!) spent years manipulating nicotine levels to "hook" smokers so they can't leave cigarettes.

Ecigs were invented in 1963, go figure. They became mainstream in 2003 in Asia and Europe, go figure it took a while to reach the Puritans in the USA.

OF COURSE Big Tobacco is now trying to gobble up the industry, ALL of the industry (because that's what Vampire Capitalists do!) and most likely keep their same formulas for highly addictive, manipulated levels of nicotine to hook generations of people forever.

The scientific FACT is nicotine is not THAT addictive, and it's not bad for you. No more than caffeine. If you never smoked in your life, WHY would you be so stupid as to vape nicotine vapes? Now, with this new technology you do not need to have nicotine at all. Why would you? Except as a smoking cessation device?

Vapes of any sort should not be sold to kids, period. If someone who's never smoked a day in their life for some reason decides "hey I'm 18, and I'm dying to vape non-nicotine vapes because I want to be cool like some commercial I saw on TV", so what? Seriously? They'd want to start vaping non-nicotine vapes to be cool like ex-smokers desperately trying to quit and save their lives? I wonder how many kids out there are thinking that same sentiment as I write this.

[cally]

157. I, too, have sat through several regulatory presentations

And I do not believe the marketing hype that they are safe. The chemicals used are not proven safe and the hype about quitting smoking has not been proven. Recent studies have shown that it is a less effective means to quit smoking.

The e cig market is being bought up by mega tobacco products. I see it as a marketing ploy to get new smokers hooked on tobacco which is addictive no matter in which form you get it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. Exactly.

And it was in depth, the kind you rarely see at the county board.

[krawhitham]

170. New study confirms that chemicals in electronic cigarettes pose minimal health risk

http://blog.casaa.org/2013/08/new-study-confirms-that-chemicals-in.html

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/14/18/

[nadinbrzezinski]

179. And in competing studies

http://www.healthline.com/health-news/heart-e-cigarettes-and-heart-attack-risk-121513

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/249784.php

https://www.tobacco.ucsf.edu/10-chemicals-identified-so-far-e-cig-vapor-are-california-prop-65-list-carcinogens-and-reproductive

I think I will stop now.

[PeaceNikki]

181. Also

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23467656

"RESULTS:
We found that the e-cigarette vapours contained some toxic substances. The levels of the toxicants were 9-450 times lower than in cigarette smoke and were, in many cases, comparable with trace amounts found in the reference product.
CONCLUSIONS:
Our findings are consistent with the idea that substituting tobacco cigarettes with e-cigarettes may substantially reduce exposure to selected tobacco-specific toxicants. E-cigarettes as a harm reduction strategy among smokers unwilling to quit, warrants further study. (To view this abstract in Polish and German, please see the supplementary files online.)."

[Major Nikon]

188. Pretty flimsy evidence

http://www.healthline.com/health-news/heart-e-cigarettes-and-heart-attack-risk-121513

This is a labratory study which didn't even look at the effects of e-cigs on people. It's very speculative and flies in the face of research that actually was done on e-cigs and people.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/249784.php

All this study did was measure a slight increase in airway resistance for 10 minutes and doesn't even attempt to measure any long term health risk. This study was also funded by the makers of Chantix who obviously have a vested interest in demonizing e-cigs.

https://www.tobacco.ucsf.edu/10-chemicals-identified-so-far-e-cig-vapor-are-california-prop-65-list-carcinogens-and-reproductive

Knowing whether or not something contains a carcinogen or toxin is useless unless one considers the exposure levels given that trace elements can be measured in parts per billion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

191. Fifty years from now I expect to have a few

Hearings like the ones involving cigarettes. I even expect the usual to admit to known dangers.

I won't be around, nor do I expect you too.

[Major Nikon]

214. It could just as easily go the other way

You could have those who imposed unnecessary regulation admitting they fucked up and killed millions by imposing unneccessary restrictions and fear mongering rather than encouraging smokers to switch.

From what I've seen so far this looks like the more likely scenario.

Just sayin'

[nadinbrzezinski]

225. It reminds me of the 1970s when big tobacco started it's rear guard battle

regardless, the article will not be posted here.

Nor any more I cover.

And if I find something curious on the net that is kind of substantive and important, will not be posted here either.

[cally]

183. Did you see the mission statement of the site you linked to

and I have never heard of the first medical journal linked to. I'll rely on the testimony I've heard. Further, I don't believe there has been enough time to do a true longitudinal study to "prove" anything about exposure to these chemicals thru ecigs. Those types of studies take years. It all reminds me of the studies proving that smoking was not harmful to your health. I remember those experts and studies. Big tobacco that owns these companies are very good at saying things are safe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

190. Longitudinal studies...I expect a repeat of those hearings

Fifty years from now.

[PeaceNikki]

169. Fucking fear mongering. You can use soda cans, apples, butter or paper to "deliver THC".

[nadinbrzezinski]

172. And you can go argue with health officials

serious.

Regardless, this is not about adults. This is about the FUTURE market for big tobacco. Why they have jumped on this like there was no tomorrow.

They did the same with Joe Camel, just in case you have forgotten Cool Joe

[PeaceNikki]

175. k

I strongly disagree that they should be regulated like cigarettes. I think they should be regulated for safety and that products with nicotine should be restricted to adults. But there are a ton of nicotine free options for people who enjoy vaping.

Fuck Joe Cool.

[nadinbrzezinski]

174. Oh and one last thing

if I got a buck every time I heard the phrase fear mongering, relating to public health, I could have retired by now.

[PeaceNikki]

176. neat!

[SirRevolutionary]

187. Now hold on just a minute....

I'm convinced. I have plastic bags in my cabinets next to the bleach, and I'm afraid the kids might get their hands on them.

I say we ban plastic bags and bleach immediately so we can ensure the safety of kids everywhere. I didn't realize the dangers of soda cans, butter, apples, or paper though, they go on the list too.

[krawhitham]

177. a little research

http://casaa.org/Clinical_Research.html

http://onvaping.com/the-ultimate-list-of-studies-on-e-cigarettes-and-their-safety/

[nadinbrzezinski]

180. Yup. you are right

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4648197

http://tobacco.ucsf.edu/e-cigarettes-release-toxic-chemicals-indoors-should-be-included-clean-indoor-air-laws-and-policies

http://www.news-medical.net/news/20140130/19-harmful-chemicals-in-e-cigarettes.aspx

I definitely should stop now

[fujiyama]

211. I am fine with the FDA regulating these

especially to ensure quality manufacturing and safety. I also do not want these targeted toward minors...and fewer advertisements is almost always a good thing.

However, some studies are showing they have about a tenth of the toxins as regular cigarettes at least when it comes to second hand smoke. If someone next to me at a bar is "vaping", I am not bothered (unless the odor is particularly strong). From an overall public health perspective, it makes no sense to simply lump these together with regular cigarettes (as some misguided legislators have done around the country). It's not clear whether these are actually helping people quit, but it's still a better alternative to smoking.

Granted that also means these would compete with all the different big-pharma "remedies" to quit smoking and politicians are less likely to feel ashamed taking big pharma's money over big tobacco (though the former is far more ruthless, unscrupulous, and nasty in its corporate practices than big tobacco could ever hope to be). Big pharma is also a lot more influential.

[nadinbrzezinski]

226. Well I know I have a pretty bad ashtma

as in sensitive to crap in the environment, except when we go cover fires. odd I know...since it should.

So not looking forwards to that either.

I also feel that posting, even direct links to marketing to kids, and statements from Attorney Generals draws people's claws, so will no longer post anything we cover. I am even considering posting in the photography forum. Hell, there are days I wonder about posting here.

All I said in the OP is I want them regulated, but it seems some people have an inner libertarian (they do, it is an American tradition and it does not mean the Ron \ Rand version) and will not listen to experts, since those with book learning are wrong. and crazy and, and, and, and

Anti intellectualism wins again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

228. Since personal attacks is all that is left here, self locked, with the content of the OP

On E-Cigs, after sitting through a brief from County Staff [View all]

and testimony from those at the American Heart, American Cancer and Lung Association, as well as other groups... my vote is for them to be fully regulated as tobacco products., and treated as such.

I also learned today that they're insidious among minors, the product (the devices themselves) can and are used to TCH delivery as well as crack cocaine. And that my thinking that it was a good quitting device, is actually anecdotal. Hell, some of these now are marketed with Angry Birds packaging on them.



Since I do not expect this to be popular. I am willing to make a bet here though. More and more bans will come and sooner or later E-Cig adverts will also disappear from my TV. (Which is good, NoJoy, or whatever that brand is, is not cool)

Now where did I leave my notes, recording and of course my lovely photos? Oh yeah, in the bag... sorry.

Oh and don't expect me to post the story here as to what the County Board of Supervisors voted for today either or future actions. Just saying that listening to people with actual credentials, leads me to believe that indeed, they shoudl be treated like cig. I guess this has the potential of actually making it to CNN... potential, that is all.