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PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:11 AM Mar 2014

Should America work towards becoming a gun-free Country?

Should we be passing legislation to remove items that serve no purpose but causation of death from our great Nation?


95 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
YES
25 (26%)
NO
70 (74%)
Show usernames
Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll
354 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Should America work towards becoming a gun-free Country? (Original Post) PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 OP
No (nt) bigwillq Mar 2014 #1
Let's start with alcohol LittleBlue Mar 2014 #2
Responsible use of molecules are fine... TampaAnimusVortex Mar 2014 #23
. Lurker Deluxe Mar 2014 #72
You want to ban target shooting also? TampaAnimusVortex Mar 2014 #255
Nazi references are uncalled for sarisataka Mar 2014 #258
We tried that..didn't work. shraby Mar 2014 #45
^^^This^^^. CVN-68 Mar 2014 #53
Hmmm, how about "Safe, legal....and rare" first? :) n/t Pholus Mar 2014 #3
Is that not "working towards.." ? eom PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #5
That presumes the goal is the complete eradication of guns. Pholus Mar 2014 #7
That is the point to this poll. PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #12
Ok. I think it's counterproductive. Pholus Mar 2014 #16
"I personally would like to see a goal of "complete eradication." Then you should go immediately Ghost in the Machine Mar 2014 #159
A tiny minority of authoritarians would be the answer. . pipoman Mar 2014 #265
Yes, but it will never happen. CaliforniaPeggy Mar 2014 #4
Always love a push poll on DU. former9thward Mar 2014 #6
How is it a push poll? PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #9
"items that serve no purpose but causation of death from our great Nation" former9thward Mar 2014 #15
what other purpose does a gun serve besides death? PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #24
How about target shooting? CVN-68 Mar 2014 #31
I can target shoot with a rubber bb low power air rifle. eom PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #32
Good for you. CVN-68 Mar 2014 #33
But you are not *required* to have firearms to shoot at targets. baldguy Mar 2014 #179
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #180
Really? JJChambers Mar 2014 #229
As if every target has to be 1000 meters away. How arbitrary. baldguy Mar 2014 #238
Yahoos. Straw Man Mar 2014 #288
I'm talking about gun owners, but you knew that. baldguy Mar 2014 #307
No, you were talking about target shooting. Straw Man Mar 2014 #316
The RW merry-go-round you're trying to start usually has a longer refresh cycle baldguy Mar 2014 #328
Do you have anything substantive to offer in rebuttal? Straw Man Mar 2014 #329
Here's one UglyGreed Mar 2014 #312
One? Straw Man Mar 2014 #317
Was not a shooting range HoustonDave Mar 2014 #333
The post I replied to UglyGreed Apr 2014 #353
Or a bow and arrow, or darts for fucks sakes. But we have sandy hook because Adam Lanza's mom just Erose999 Mar 2014 #59
How many of those can reach 600+ yards? oneshooter Mar 2014 #223
Are there no times where death is necessary? Bazinga Mar 2014 #38
Good point but it appears that even a push poll on guns posted on a very liberal ... spin Mar 2014 #91
Apparently there's a Push Poll Corollary... Lizzie Poppet Mar 2014 #136
Maybe because most DUers have guns? Eleanors38 Mar 2014 #245
It could be pointed out that if only ultra conservatives owned firearms ... spin Mar 2014 #246
Not to mention one that isn't going in the direction it was pushed... Lost_Count Mar 2014 #13
I did not expect a landslide. PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #39
Why is that? Lost_Count Mar 2014 #52
a 1/3 of respondents on a definitionally left leaning website using emotionally laden push polling whatthehey Mar 2014 #78
It shouldn't. One a very progressive message board, you can't even get a plurality Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #140
hmm PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #141
I'd say a few have. But by "real" people I'm referring to putting a ballot initiative Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #142
no... Blue_Tires Mar 2014 #8
The NRA sponsors a LOT of training across the country. Badly needed safety training that is hard geckosfeet Mar 2014 #25
Well, something isn't getting through... Blue_Tires Mar 2014 #35
Yes. I know. Training is generally a state level mandate. Some states require geckosfeet Mar 2014 #48
What about those that hunt? CVN-68 Mar 2014 #10
No. I want to keep my firearms. Throd Mar 2014 #11
Throw them all in the ocean damnedifIknow Mar 2014 #14
No thanks. CVN-68 Mar 2014 #17
Oh great, just what we need, ZombieHorde Mar 2014 #228
Gun-free? No. The_Commonist Mar 2014 #18
Gun violence marions ghost Mar 2014 #19
Yay, a gun control thread that falls outside of the "Big News" parameters NightWatcher Mar 2014 #20
There have been several shooting threads recently in GD. PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #27
Correction: Gun banners hold censorship power in GD. Eleanors38 Mar 2014 #247
Absolutely not. MicaelS Mar 2014 #21
No MO_Moderate Mar 2014 #22
I don't necessarily think that we need to get rid of guns entirely Proud Liberal Dem Mar 2014 #26
A little understatement PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #28
Maybe it was Proud Liberal Dem Mar 2014 #30
America should work sarisataka Mar 2014 #29
We should enact laws making it mandatory that guns be buried randr Mar 2014 #34
What, no more Zimmermans, Lanzas, Militia boys, intimidators, public toters , bigots with gunz, etc. Hoyt Mar 2014 #36
I think that everybody should go to a gun show...... at least once. rdharma Mar 2014 #42
+100. (nt) Paladin Mar 2014 #61
I'd have to get deflead afterwards Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #120
Firearms ownership should be more closely regulated. rdharma Mar 2014 #37
If they serve no purpose but causation of death... dilby Mar 2014 #40
Good question. The UK seems to do just fine. eom. PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #47
Except of course for the fact that they do have access to firearms... Lost_Count Mar 2014 #54
Just fine. Straw Man Mar 2014 #289
Sorry, but most people don't equate human and animal death. Deep13 Mar 2014 #65
Gun prohibition is opposed by 2/3 of Americans. Lasher Mar 2014 #41
And the other third marions ghost Mar 2014 #43
I don't think my rights should end where your irrational fear begins. Lasher Mar 2014 #51
You are guaranteed that (s)he will not be shooting you. ((S)he does not have a gun) PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #55
Oh come on, what are the chances of that? Lasher Mar 2014 #70
Reminds me of a Carlin bit... Lost_Count Mar 2014 #145
Statistics PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #147
Yes... statistics... Lost_Count Mar 2014 #149
"Odds" do not a 2A justification make. Loudly Mar 2014 #205
Not entirely sure what that means... but... Lost_Count Mar 2014 #210
Many share my "irrational fears"... marions ghost Mar 2014 #57
No, there is not more to worry about than I think. Lasher Mar 2014 #63
People don't live by statistics marions ghost Mar 2014 #73
No, I have never been in a hospital lockdown. Lasher Mar 2014 #90
Talk about irrational fears... marions ghost Mar 2014 #151
Interesting. NutmegYankee Mar 2014 #164
I find most people marions ghost Mar 2014 #166
I think a gun will propel lead bullets really fast. NutmegYankee Mar 2014 #170
Whatever marions ghost Mar 2014 #206
Do you really think you'll be shot on any given day? NutmegYankee Mar 2014 #213
Once again statistics... marions ghost Mar 2014 #214
Yeah, how dare I use facts. NutmegYankee Mar 2014 #217
This group is for realistic gun control marions ghost Mar 2014 #236
I read it, I just don't believe you NutmegYankee Mar 2014 #237
oh for petes whatever marions ghost Mar 2014 #240
Not sure where you thought I was whining. NutmegYankee Mar 2014 #241
Selected this for you marions ghost Mar 2014 #248
It is not more a fetish than wanting to keep abortions legal is The Straight Story Mar 2014 #257
Imagine a country marions ghost Mar 2014 #261
I don't really agree with your view The Straight Story Mar 2014 #263
You've described it well... marions ghost Mar 2014 #264
Luck? Hmm... Lost_Count Mar 2014 #335
Talk to people marions ghost Mar 2014 #336
I chuckle... Lost_Count Mar 2014 #339
Re Facts marions ghost Mar 2014 #342
My life was saved by a person with a gun (nt) JJChambers Mar 2014 #231
A fear isn't deemed rational sarisataka Mar 2014 #173
You must live in a nice world marions ghost Mar 2014 #207
I live in the real world sarisataka Mar 2014 #211
" All I'm asking is for real gun control" Please feelfree to describe that for us. n/t oneshooter Mar 2014 #225
This group will tell you marions ghost Mar 2014 #235
That group is as phony as the Kochs' Americans For Prosperity friendly_iconoclast Mar 2014 #338
Not sure why marions ghost Mar 2014 #341
You're 0 for 2 for accuracy -they weren't "endorsed" by MAIG, they were taken over by them friendly_iconoclast Mar 2014 #346
There was a fatal shooting right outside my son's school the other day. Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #80
Gun violence has fallen by nearly 50% in 25 years, though NickB79 Mar 2014 #87
On point flying rabbit Mar 2014 #230
To be clear, we could still use some new gun laws NickB79 Mar 2014 #239
Agreed. Very important. nt Eleanors38 Mar 2014 #251
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #44
Yes, the 70 y/o man with a cane thread got my mind on it this a.m. eom PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #49
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #50
So you are for carrying, accumulating guns because you are afraid of the police? Hoyt Mar 2014 #76
I'm far more afraid of cops than the general public. CVN-68 Mar 2014 #81
I'm far more concerned about bigoted, yahoos carrying gunz in society. Hoyt Mar 2014 #84
I personally know several liberal dems who have CCW's CVN-68 Mar 2014 #88
Go to a gun show, gun store, gun promotional march, etc. Tell me what you see. Hoyt Mar 2014 #100
I've been to plenty of gun shows. CVN-68 Mar 2014 #103
Diverse crowd? LMAO. Post a couple of photos of those diverse crowds. Still LMAO. Hoyt Mar 2014 #106
Are you kidding me? CVN-68 Mar 2014 #108
You can't prove it to me. Plenty of images on the "internets." Post a few of those. Hoyt Mar 2014 #119
You are wasting your time with Hoyt hack89 Mar 2014 #107
Thanks for the information. CVN-68 Mar 2014 #109
Welcome to you, a member of the latest pro-gun cadre here at DU. Paladin Mar 2014 #112
Thank you for the welcome. CVN-68 Mar 2014 #116
To some people here yes it is a very bad thing. AnalystInParadise Mar 2014 #148
Meh. CVN-68 Mar 2014 #162
He's on the wrong side of other issues as well. Union Scribe Mar 2014 #200
Got to be "liberal" on something, might as be the same thing as DiFi. TheKentuckian Mar 2014 #208
Right. I'm sure they listen to both kinds of music, too. baldguy Mar 2014 #181
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #182
. baldguy Mar 2014 #195
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #197
And yet ... Straw Man Mar 2014 #290
Murders are not the only adverse effect of gunz. The white wing gun hatred has a toll too. Hoyt Mar 2014 #292
Really? Kingofalldems Mar 2014 #188
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #191
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #127
Of course we should work on become truly free. And civilized. villager Mar 2014 #46
I wish we could shenmue Mar 2014 #56
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #67
True shenmue Mar 2014 #68
"A gun" is not so bad. A bunch of gunz or carrying one in your pants while at Chuck E Cheese is bad. Hoyt Mar 2014 #77
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #135
Mostly agree. However, I don't think poverty is what prompts folks to carry and accumulate gunz. Hoyt Mar 2014 #139
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #144
I think the Army still needs its guns. Deep13 Mar 2014 #58
You are correct. PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #60
The irony of this post and your handle is stupefying. . pipoman Mar 2014 #266
stupefying is equating guns and power. PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #269
"Power to the People" advocates ceding enumerated pipoman Mar 2014 #272
... PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #273
Well you are at odds with virtually every constitutional pipoman Mar 2014 #278
It doesn't fit because he doesn't want it to... Lost_Count Mar 2014 #282
Cars kill way more people than firearms, ZombieHorde Mar 2014 #262
over 300 million privately owned guns in the United States rollin74 Mar 2014 #62
On January 1, 1863 there were 3.1 - 4 million privately owned people in the United States. PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #66
We have? CVN-68 Mar 2014 #74
yes you are right Titus Mar 2014 #160
Let's just leave things as they are for another decade, and there will be 400 million to deal with. Hoyt Mar 2014 #79
We are? CVN-68 Mar 2014 #82
Kind of like cigarettes, folks will get tired of yahoos polluting society with gunz. Hoyt Mar 2014 #83
Highly doubtful. CVN-68 Mar 2014 #85
Can't just concentrate on the "murder" rate. Gunz facilitate a lot of intimidation and embolden Hoyt Mar 2014 #86
Bull. CVN-68 Mar 2014 #89
Fact, face it. Hoyt Mar 2014 #97
Bull X2. CVN-68 Mar 2014 #101
And guns intimidate felons and armed robbers too. SQUEE Mar 2014 #308
I'll check out your favorite gun shows, give me names. Hoyt Mar 2014 #309
I don't attend "gun shows". SQUEE Mar 2014 #311
So you haven't been to any gun shows to offer an opinion of the level of diversity. OK thanks. Hoyt Mar 2014 #313
OH how funny, how terribly rich. SQUEE Mar 2014 #315
Gun toters seem to believe they can spot a criminal in time to react. They can't. Hoyt Mar 2014 #320
Why are you trying to preach safety to me? SQUEE Mar 2014 #321
Chances of running across "the wrong sheep" are so small, it is irrational to worry about it. Now Hoyt Mar 2014 #322
So you take your life in your hands. And continue to project your bigotry and hate. SQUEE Mar 2014 #324
Yep, I am definitely bigoted against those who think gunz improve society. Hoyt Mar 2014 #325
Of course you are; they were an occupational hazard to you at one time: friendly_iconoclast Mar 2014 #330
Once again stalker, read it in context. Hoyt Mar 2014 #331
Some recovering alcoholics think that *everyone* who drinks has a problem... friendly_iconoclast Mar 2014 #337
If you drink while carrying or playing with a gun, you do have a problem. Hoyt Mar 2014 #340
I don't drink either.. SQUEE Mar 2014 #343
Considering how low the liklihood is, that sounds a bit irrational. Hoyt Mar 2014 #348
I have been told, people have been known to lock others in, all the while threatening SQUEE Mar 2014 #349
Sorry, that sounds irrational and we are not in a war zone. Hoyt Mar 2014 #351
... SQUEE Mar 2014 #352
I don't drink, but I also don't prattle on about the evils of alcohol friendly_iconoclast Mar 2014 #347
It is working well in Connecticut Titus Mar 2014 #158
That would require every square inch to have exactly zero possible use One_Life_To_Give Mar 2014 #64
The sentence above the poll does not follow from the subject line. Orsino Mar 2014 #69
NO KamaAina Mar 2014 #71
Nope. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #75
"from our great Nation". VScott Mar 2014 #92
Welcome to DU PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #94
The World Is Horrified otohara Mar 2014 #171
Yes. It will be ugly for a while, but it's worth it ecstatic Mar 2014 #93
I agree PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #95
Momentum is going towards big changes to the status quo in very many areas, this one included. CVN-68 Mar 2014 #104
I do not care to answer but, [strike]the majority[/strike] many PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #105
What does low post count have to do with my question? CVN-68 Mar 2014 #111
The path we are on has seen a huge decrease in violence in America hack89 Mar 2014 #98
How low would violence be if we didn't have a bunch of armed folks running around? Hoyt Mar 2014 #122
"It is not falling fast enough" is not the snappiest battle cry, is it? hack89 Mar 2014 #123
No, any losing streak is due to yahoos in NRA and other gun lobbying groups. Hoyt Mar 2014 #124
You keep believing that. nt hack89 Mar 2014 #125
I'll play... How low would it be? cherokeeprogressive Mar 2014 #126
Pretty low. Why can you tell me what you think, and I can't do the same. Hoyt Mar 2014 #131
I don't carry guns. cherokeeprogressive Mar 2014 #153
I think we should focus on creating a country woo me with science Mar 2014 #96
Ridding ourselves of tools of inhumanity PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #99
Then we'll go back to using knives and clubs and bows Lurks Often Mar 2014 #118
And small folk like me would be extra screwed. Lizzie Poppet Mar 2014 #137
True fascisthunter Mar 2014 #102
Can we start with a gun-free DU? nt Gidney N Cloyd Mar 2014 #110
DU haz gunz? JustABozoOnThisBus Mar 2014 #209
Wow. That is not a loaded question. joeglow3 Mar 2014 #113
Nope. n/t Skip Intro Mar 2014 #114
Should we? Yes. Will we? Not a chance in the world. PeteSelman Mar 2014 #115
I voted yes, but I wouldn't actually go so far as to completely eliminate them. Crunchy Frog Mar 2014 #117
I'd rather go "Safe, Legal, Insured and Responsible". Xyzse Mar 2014 #121
Insurance Calista241 Mar 2014 #163
Insurance: Xyzse Mar 2014 #334
Your own OP proves it is impossible, GD was declared a gun-free zone Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #128
Interesting. Anti-gun views are now protected in GD... Eleanors38 Mar 2014 #254
PowerToThePeople, are you surprised by the response to your poll? n/t Skip Intro Mar 2014 #129
I am pleased with the results PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #132
I am too. I thought a vast majority here would be for it. Skip Intro Mar 2014 #134
No Dwayne Hicks Mar 2014 #130
I vote no only because I live in wild country Warpy Mar 2014 #133
YES mwrguy Mar 2014 #138
How would you like to see us "work towards" achieving this lofty goal? Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #143
That's a waste of resources that should go elsewhere WhaTHellsgoingonhere Mar 2014 #146
Regulation, registration, and licenses, absolutely. WatermelonRat Mar 2014 #150
Nope Duckhunter935 Mar 2014 #152
I would love to see it .... etherealtruth Mar 2014 #154
Jeez how about going for "sanely regulated" first? 0rganism Mar 2014 #155
I think we have this about right in the UK. Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2014 #156
Yeah, sure their tightly restricted. Boudica the Lyoness Mar 2014 #234
I vote no hollowdweller Mar 2014 #157
Ideally - I suppose - but given the culture you might as well hope for a prayer-free Country Douglas Carpenter Mar 2014 #161
Only because guns can actually affect change... Lost_Count Mar 2014 #175
Absolutely. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #165
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #168
Good for you. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #177
The use of bows & arrows and atlatls & spears requires a not insubstantial amount of skill. baldguy Mar 2014 #187
If it were up to me, we'd go back to a flintlock/musket only country... MrScorpio Mar 2014 #167
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #169
Hey, no one's talking about banning guns... MrScorpio Mar 2014 #172
Keep beating that dead horse. Jenoch Mar 2014 #174
Well regulated NutmegYankee Mar 2014 #176
"no one's talking about banning guns" Union Scribe Mar 2014 #199
Meaning in my subthread MrScorpio Mar 2014 #201
Yes geomon666 Mar 2014 #178
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #183
Learn how to actually hunt. geomon666 Mar 2014 #185
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #186
Good for you. geomon666 Mar 2014 #189
Do you hunt for your food? Kingofalldems Mar 2014 #190
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #193
I do! I do! And I keep a gun handy for self-defense. Eleanors38 Mar 2014 #350
No. Not gun-free although I would never purchase a firearm myself. BlueCaliDem Mar 2014 #184
Of course those charged with pipoman Mar 2014 #267
Which just goes to show BlueCaliDem Mar 2014 #285
Even liberal judges know that the definition of "well regulated" pipoman Mar 2014 #286
Yes, even liberal judges know the ACCEPTED definition of "well regulated militia" BlueCaliDem Mar 2014 #296
Surely you have some evidence that SCOTUS pipoman Mar 2014 #299
Thats a convenient fiction... beevul Mar 2014 #287
The only convenient fiction here BlueCaliDem Mar 2014 #297
Uh huh. beevul Mar 2014 #319
I see the gun nuts here aren't trying to justify their fetish as protection againt the govt baldguy Mar 2014 #192
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2014 #196
I never understood that particular belief hack89 Mar 2014 #198
guns are to Democrats as abortion is to Republicans WhaTHellsgoingonhere Mar 2014 #194
No We Should Not Vogon_Glory Mar 2014 #202
I could probably be on board with this line of thinking. eom PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #203
I Think About The UK's Firearms Prohibition And ask Why Vogon_Glory Mar 2014 #204
Are there any gun free countries? jwirr Mar 2014 #212
Australia marions ghost Mar 2014 #215
Thank you for the info. I could go for that idea. However, we have a long way to go to get this jwirr Mar 2014 #218
We have a long way to go marions ghost Mar 2014 #219
Dream on. Straw Man Mar 2014 #291
I know what its like to live there marions ghost Mar 2014 #310
Info? Straw Man Mar 2014 #314
We have to take care of the e-cigs first; you eat an elephant one bite at a time. TransitJohn Mar 2014 #216
A mom breast fed her kid while smoking e-cigarettes and husband open carried at Olive Garden! Initech Mar 2014 #221
Neglectful sarisataka Mar 2014 #222
Never happen! B Calm Mar 2014 #220
Sorry you feel that way PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #224
Should be the goal of humanity, not just our country. nt tridim Mar 2014 #226
A poll like this is a brightly-wrapped gift to the pro-gun movement. Paladin Mar 2014 #227
Spot on! uncommonlink Mar 2014 #232
Doubt it marions ghost Mar 2014 #242
What is the purpose of the tool, if not "causation of death?" PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #244
2 things... Lost_Count Mar 2014 #253
Ok, death and terrorism PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #274
No Go Vols Mar 2014 #233
The question is worded in a slanted way. PlanetaryOrbit Mar 2014 #243
Eh?--this is DU marions ghost Mar 2014 #250
Gun free cops n/t reddread Mar 2014 #249
My son and others I know enjoy hunting fadedrose Mar 2014 #252
No thank you Separation Mar 2014 #256
Abso-fucking-tively! We need to have way fewer gun-fetishers in the country. madinmaryland Mar 2014 #259
Yes send all the gun nuts to pacifist camp until they undeterred Mar 2014 #260
I have so far refrained from participating in this thread. Jenoch Mar 2014 #268
We would not jump right to "gun-free" PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #270
If the 'work towards' included an attempt Jenoch Mar 2014 #271
I answered "no", because it is not even remotely possible, nor is it advisable. Yo_Mama Mar 2014 #275
Who trusts whom, would the watchers disarm too? Hence, I said no. We are not advanced RKP5637 Mar 2014 #276
This poll results show why the anti-gunners are failing and will fail. aikoaiko Mar 2014 #277
See what I mean, PowerToThePeople? (nt) Paladin Mar 2014 #279
"[Paladin] gave up on establishing any meaningful dialog on firearms restrictions some time ago." aikoaiko Mar 2014 #280
It still has its entertaining aspects. Like that 2008 DU poll..... Paladin Mar 2014 #281
I missed that little jewel. Shows what's most important to them. Very sad. Hoyt Mar 2014 #293
Do you have a link.? Nt hack89 Mar 2014 #294
Find it yourself. It'll mean more to you, that way. (nt) Paladin Mar 2014 #295
Pulled it out of your ass, didn't you? hack89 Mar 2014 #300
No, I just don't do leg work for pro-gun extremists. Paladin Mar 2014 #301
I am one of those gray beards - I have been here since 2005 hack89 Mar 2014 #303
The feeling's mutual. Paladin Mar 2014 #304
So be it. See you around. nt hack89 Mar 2014 #305
You know it exists, just like this one where you guys called me a liar. Hoyt Mar 2014 #323
It took you longer to type that then it would to provide a link hack89 Mar 2014 #327
confusing two issues.. 2banon Mar 2014 #283
Work towards.. Calista241 Mar 2014 #284
Hillarious. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #298
Just ridding the country of hand guns would be good. liberal N proud Mar 2014 #302
Right after we work towards having everyone flap their arms to fly eridani Mar 2014 #306
Should this poll have more than yes/no options? ScreamingMeemie Mar 2014 #318
Aren't you worried we will be conquered by some other people after our military gives up its arms? Threedifferentones Mar 2014 #326
NO SkatmanRoth Mar 2014 #332
AMONG THE MANY JUST USES FOR A GUN ARE... discntnt_irny_srcsm Mar 2014 #344
That's the good thing about firearms they're designed to save lives. ileus Mar 2014 #345
Yes. (nt) stone space Dec 2014 #354
 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
2. Let's start with alcohol
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:14 AM
Mar 2014

Causes more deaths and suffering than guns.

Mortality

Number of alcoholic liver disease deaths: 15,990
Number of alcohol-induced deaths, excluding accidents and homicides: 25,692

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/alcohol.htm

When you factor in the number families ruined, the number of children abused, man-hours lost, etc etc alcohol is much worse than guns.

TampaAnimusVortex

(785 posts)
23. Responsible use of molecules are fine...
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:44 AM
Mar 2014

I could care less about the guy or girl who has the occasional drink or smoke if they don't get out driving or doing anything dangerous - and that's the vast majority of people.

Punish people for actually hurting other people. You don't need to start jumping back 15 steps of indirect causes or you'll never stop trying to control people's behaviors or thoughts.

Lurker Deluxe

(1,055 posts)
72. .
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:02 PM
Mar 2014

I could care less about the guy or girl who occasionally goes hunting or target shooting if they don't go around carrying or doing anything dangerous - and that's the vast majority of people.

Punish people for actually hurting other people. You don't need to start jumping back 15 steps of indirect causes or you'll never stop trying to control people's behaviors or thoughts.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
7. That presumes the goal is the complete eradication of guns.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:19 AM
Mar 2014

Doesn't sound like something worth doing. On the other hand, seeing yokels carry their AR-15's around malls is simply too much.

Why do people push for a dichotomy when it is clear that things are more complicated than that?
 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
12. That is the point to this poll.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:28 AM
Mar 2014

I personally would like to see a goal of "complete eradication." The poll is to get a somewhat unscientific look at how many other people think the same.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
16. Ok. I think it's counterproductive.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:32 AM
Mar 2014

I want something common-sense and effective and see no workable options when the choices are limited to:

1) No guns ever, no way no how.
2) Everything you can think to pack up to and including nukes and by the way carrying should be a manditory law.

But I get your point. So carry on!

Ghost in the Machine

(14,912 posts)
159. "I personally would like to see a goal of "complete eradication." Then you should go immediately
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 06:42 PM
Mar 2014

to your local polling place and unregister as a Democrat, then join a 3rd party or form your own Party.

The Democratic Party Platform SUPPORTS the 2nd Amendment, as do a majority of Democrats as your own poll here shows. I'm guessing it didn't turn out quite like you expected it to, did it? Don't worry though, it's happened to just about all of us at one time or another.

I live in the South, and have to put up with a lot of South bashing on here. Quite honestly though, it's "Dems" like YOU who keep people voting against their own best interests. It's hard for people like ME to talk sense into people who, for generations, have had it drilled into their brains that "Demoncrats wanna take away my guns!" I can show them where the Party Platform SUPPORTS the 2nd Amendment & then they see a post like yours. YOU are not part of the solution, you're part of the PROBLEM.

Many, MANY rural, poor Southerners depend on hunting as a means to help put food on their tables and feed their families. To them, YOU are threatening their way of survival and their very existence.

Here's a little advice to the "gun grabbers" (I suppose I'm allowed to call them that, since they have their little monickers such as "gun nuts" & "gun humpers&quot : The next time you want to blame "ignorant Southerners" for why we can't elect Democrats in the "red states" or in the South, take a good long look in the mirror first, then notice when you have that ONE finger pointing at us, you have THREE fingers pointing back at yourself.

Let that sink in for a little while....

Peace,

Ghost

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
265. A tiny minority of authoritarians would be the answer. .
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 05:34 AM
Mar 2014

LOL "somewhat unscientific"...

former9thward

(33,424 posts)
15. "items that serve no purpose but causation of death from our great Nation"
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:31 AM
Mar 2014

The very definition of a push poll. If you vote 'No' then you are for something that serves "no purpose but causation of death from our great Nation."

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
24. what other purpose does a gun serve besides death?
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:44 AM
Mar 2014

You will not be able to come up with any purposes that require an item that fits the current definition of a gun.

 

CVN-68

(97 posts)
33. Good for you.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:53 AM
Mar 2014

But there are plenty of us who like to shoot real rifles or handguns competitively or just blow off steam by shooting at targets.

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
179. But you are not *required* to have firearms to shoot at targets.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 08:24 PM
Mar 2014

The only real purpose is to kill.

Response to baldguy (Reply #179)

 

JJChambers

(1,115 posts)
229. Really?
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 01:45 PM
Mar 2014

So what BB gun is accurate enough to take precision target shooting out to 1000m?

/sigh, radicals

 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
238. As if every target has to be 1000 meters away. How arbitrary.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:28 PM
Mar 2014

Might as well say every target has to be 10000 kilometers away, so you just absolutely need to have an ICBM with at least a 30 kiloton warhead to shoot at it.

Why don't you gun nuts start with just shooting marbles at paper targets in you living room. And if we can go a few years without you yahoos killing any innocent bystanders, then we'll talk.

Straw Man

(6,838 posts)
288. Yahoos.
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:04 AM
Mar 2014
Why don't you gun nuts start with just shooting marbles at paper targets in you living room. And if we can go a few years without you yahoos killing any innocent bystanders, then we'll talk.

Have I missed something? I don't recall any recent stories of target shooters killing innocent bystanders.
 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
307. I'm talking about gun owners, but you knew that.
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 08:49 AM
Mar 2014

Since we've already established that target shooting doesn't necessitate having guns.

Straw Man

(6,838 posts)
316. No, you were talking about target shooting.
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:40 AM
Mar 2014
I'm talking about gun owners, but you knew that.

Why don't you gun nuts start with just shooting marbles at paper targets in you living room. And if we can go a few years without you yahoos killing any innocent bystanders, then we'll talk.

Perhaps you forgot.
 

baldguy

(36,649 posts)
328. The RW merry-go-round you're trying to start usually has a longer refresh cycle
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 07:20 PM
Mar 2014

And your rehashing of bullshit doesn't make to smell any better.

Straw Man

(6,838 posts)
329. Do you have anything substantive to offer in rebuttal?
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 12:50 AM
Mar 2014

Or do you merely want to indulge your penchant for crude name-calling?

I suspect the latter.

HoustonDave

(60 posts)
333. Was not a shooting range
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 09:01 AM
Mar 2014

That was a clown shooting in his back yard without even a proper backstop - he needs to go up for negligent homicide. A properly set up gun range has backstops... I am guessing you have never seen one.

UglyGreed

(7,661 posts)
353. The post I replied to
Thu Apr 3, 2014, 10:18 AM
Apr 2014

stated target practice which was what the person was doing when he shot his neighbor. Oh and by the way I have hunted for many years and gone to the range and on private land shot skeet and targets.

Erose999

(5,624 posts)
59. Or a bow and arrow, or darts for fucks sakes. But we have sandy hook because Adam Lanza's mom just
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:35 PM
Mar 2014

had to have her fucking AR-15's and other weapons to poke holes in a sheet of paper.

Bazinga

(331 posts)
38. Are there no times where death is necessary?
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:02 PM
Mar 2014

i.e. hunting to procure food.

Or at least the potential for lethality, as in self-defense?

Sure guns can cause death, they are weapons. But sometimes, isn't that what is required?

spin

(17,493 posts)
91. Good point but it appears that even a push poll on guns posted on a very liberal ...
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:53 PM
Mar 2014

and progressive forum such as DU doesn't show strong support for banning all firearms and confiscating them.

That should be a lesson for those who wish to accomplish this goal by incrementally banning firearms.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
136. Apparently there's a Push Poll Corollary...
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 03:46 PM
Mar 2014

...to the Law of Unintended Consequences.

spin

(17,493 posts)
246. It could be pointed out that if only ultra conservatives owned firearms ...
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 06:15 PM
Mar 2014

sometime in the future people who have a more liberal philosophy might regret that fact.

 

Lost_Count

(555 posts)
13. Not to mention one that isn't going in the direction it was pushed...
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:29 AM
Mar 2014

As of this moment at least...

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
39. I did not expect a landslide.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:02 PM
Mar 2014

We will see how it goes. Still, even the numbers I see now (38%/63%) make me feel pretty good about a future without firearms in this Country.

whatthehey

(3,660 posts)
78. a 1/3 of respondents on a definitionally left leaning website using emotionally laden push polling
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:30 PM
Mar 2014

is hardly any indication that the country at large is even close to being willing to go gun free.

Restrictions? Quite likely. Few indeed would argue with universal background checks, stronger mental health screening and restrictions on child access. Might be able to reach sensible middle ground on magazine capacities, such as not exceeding the oem design perhaps. Tests for CCW could easily be standardized and made rigorous in return for reciprocity. But elimination? In a nation with thousands of gunsmiths and free IP such as blueprints that make a gun easily produced in a basic machine shop? Absurd, even if the majority were willing to try, when you can't even get parity, here, with this "poll"?

Common Sense Party

(14,139 posts)
140. It shouldn't. One a very progressive message board, you can't even get a plurality
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 04:02 PM
Mar 2014

to say we should get rid of all guns.

How do you think you're going to fare out in the real world, with real people who have actually seen and used guns?

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
141. hmm
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 04:08 PM
Mar 2014
How do you think you're going to fare out in the real world, with real people who have actually seen and used guns?


I would like to think that EVERYONE posting here and clicking yes/no is a "real" person. Personally, I have used guns often in my past. Hunted, target shooting, skeet shooting, etc. But, I have not touched a gun for over 10 years now. Maybe there needs to be one concerning usage history. I think quite a few supporters of the yes answer have had exposure to firearms in the past.

Common Sense Party

(14,139 posts)
142. I'd say a few have. But by "real" people I'm referring to putting a ballot initiative
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 04:14 PM
Mar 2014

in front of a real voter who will decide, or having political candidates who boldly state, "Vote for me and I'll try to take away everyone's right to own guns." How do you think those real voters across the whole of the country will respond?

I hope you realize they will respond differently then people on a progressive board whose vote on an internet poll portends no real changes to their lives.

 

Blue_Tires

(57,596 posts)
8. no...
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:23 AM
Mar 2014

we just need a cultural shift that kills once and for all the mindset that guns are:

1. toys
2. testosterone boosters
3. instant courage
4. argument settlers

And the penalties for negligence/general jackassery need to be a lot more severe than they are now...

I know it gets old, but I can attest the majority of gun owners are sane, intelligent people...They've just let the loons and nutbars roam unchecked for too long...And because the NRA are sociopathic assholes who only care about generating gun/ammo sales, the crazies have been embraced and protected instead of ostracized...

geckosfeet

(9,644 posts)
25. The NRA sponsors a LOT of training across the country. Badly needed safety training that is hard
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:44 AM
Mar 2014

to come by in some areas. Not to say that they do not promote some questionable politics, but they do provide very useful and necessary services. The holy grail of instructor certification is NRA certification.

 

Blue_Tires

(57,596 posts)
35. Well, something isn't getting through...
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:55 AM
Mar 2014

I don't know if that means all new owners should be subject to mandatory training, or what...

And it's not just the general safety and "hitting-what-you-aim-at" training, the psychology and thought processes in a gun owner's mind need revision...If I could point to ONE universal underlying problem with guns that gives root to everything else, it that too many well-meaning people are too quick to introduce guns into situations unnecessarily (whether out of irrational rage, fear, etc.) so minor conflicts have a much higher chance of ending up in tragedy...

geckosfeet

(9,644 posts)
48. Yes. I know. Training is generally a state level mandate. Some states require
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:08 PM
Mar 2014

training before you can get a license or buy a gun. Some do not. However the training is available.

Part of the issue is that you have to pay for these classes. Some folks claim that they can't afford it. My view is that if you can afford a gun and ammunition you can afford $100 for a gun safety class once or twice a year.

To you point of violence escalation. I agree that escalating a minor situation to the point of introducing a firearm is a problem. I do believe that for every case of out of control escalation there are hundreds perhaps thousands of conflicts that do not end up as armed conflicts. The stand your ground laws that are becoming popular (Florida for instance) do nothing but encourage people who are marginally in control to abandon all reason in a conflict.

 

CVN-68

(97 posts)
10. What about those that hunt?
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:25 AM
Mar 2014

Own farms/ranches? How about the right to self protection?
And should only police and the military have guns?

 

CVN-68

(97 posts)
17. No thanks.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:32 AM
Mar 2014

I'll keep my guns just where they are, in my safe.

The bombs? Why pollute the oceans even more?

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
228. Oh great, just what we need,
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 01:35 PM
Mar 2014

sharks with guns. We'll have killer squid using eight guns at once, and though I admit that sounds awesome, it would not be good for beach enthusiasts.

The_Commonist

(2,518 posts)
18. Gun-free? No.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:32 AM
Mar 2014

I'm about as anti-gun as they get, and I don't think "working towards becoming a gun-free country" as a particularly reasonable, useful or possible goal.

I don't have a problem with hunters and collectors having guns, or with people who really do live in places or have occupations where they need guns having them.

I think a more reasonable and possible goal would be to reduce the number of guns from 300 million to 100 million.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
19. Gun violence
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:34 AM
Mar 2014

at the level we are seeing it is a symptom of a sick society.

I'm for strict regulation.

Gun-free could never happen unless radical changes occur in this primitive society.

NightWatcher

(39,360 posts)
20. Yay, a gun control thread that falls outside of the "Big News" parameters
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:35 AM
Mar 2014

There's a whole forum to debate this.

To the Gungeon!

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
247. Correction: Gun banners hold censorship power in GD.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 06:20 PM
Mar 2014

This is obvious to anyone, no matter their views on gun prohibition, OK?

If GD is to be impartial, you would drop the meaningless TOS "exception" which seems to have been encoded to mean something else.

Oh, and "no" on the push poll.

MicaelS

(8,747 posts)
21. Absolutely not.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:40 AM
Mar 2014

I'm not a pacifist, and never will be. Pacifists who are willing to sacrifice their own lives, and the lives of their loved ones for their belief system is their business. But I don't have to respect someone like that. And I don't. And I will not let someone else's pacifism used as an excuse to disarm me. I will oppose it at every opportunity.

 

MO_Moderate

(377 posts)
22. No
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:43 AM
Mar 2014

Most Americans understand and respect the 2nd Amendment to much to allow such a thing. The few who don't blame the NRA.

Proud Liberal Dem

(24,822 posts)
26. I don't necessarily think that we need to get rid of guns entirely
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:45 AM
Mar 2014

but IMHO we need to have more restrictions on where guns can be carried and require training and licensure before ownership because it seems that for every responsible well-trained law-abiding citizen with a gun, there are multiple people out there who don't know how to use them or handle them appropriately or know how to keep them out of the hands of children- to say nothing of being able to use good judgment about when and where a gun is appropriate (and when it should and shouldn't be used).

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
28. A little understatement
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:47 AM
Mar 2014
there are multiple people out there who don't know how to use them or handle them appropriately or keep them out of the hands of children


If by "multiple", you mean tens or hundreds of thousands (maybe millions), I think you may have a somewhat accurate statement.

Proud Liberal Dem

(24,822 posts)
30. Maybe it was
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:49 AM
Mar 2014

I didn't want to say anything without having some stats to back it up but I do believe that there are too many people out there whom I wouldn't trust with a gun for a second but freedom!

sarisataka

(21,534 posts)
29. America should work
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:49 AM
Mar 2014

towards becoming a violence-free country.
The chances of being gun free and violence free are zero, but violence free would have a greater benefit.

randr

(12,517 posts)
34. We should enact laws making it mandatory that guns be buried
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:54 AM
Mar 2014

with their owners cold dead hands around them.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
36. What, no more Zimmermans, Lanzas, Militia boys, intimidators, public toters , bigots with gunz, etc.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 11:59 AM
Mar 2014
Good lord, you trying to make this country progressive or something. What would we do without these folks?


?7











 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
42. I think that everybody should go to a gun show...... at least once.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:04 PM
Mar 2014

Just to observe the folks in attendance. Very scary.

Crunchy Frog

(27,313 posts)
120. I'd have to get deflead afterwards
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 02:42 PM
Mar 2014

and I'd be worried about the chemical exposure. And what if someone decided to follow me home?

Deep13

(39,157 posts)
65. Sorry, but most people don't equate human and animal death.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:49 PM
Mar 2014

Hunters, pest-controllers, and omnivores are not the same as those who kill people. Also, I've shot tens of thousands of rounds, all of them at target ranges. So they actually do have a purposes besides killing.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
43. And the other third
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:05 PM
Mar 2014

is held hostage because of lack of regulation and the barest minimum of gun control.

Lasher

(28,611 posts)
51. I don't think my rights should end where your irrational fear begins.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:18 PM
Mar 2014

Nobody's holding you hostage. That's hyperbole.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
55. You are guaranteed that (s)he will not be shooting you. ((S)he does not have a gun)
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:24 PM
Mar 2014

(S)he does not have any guarantee that you will not be shooting him/her.

Lasher

(28,611 posts)
70. Oh come on, what are the chances of that?
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:01 PM
Mar 2014

I don't think that's a very good argument. But OK, I personally guarantee I won't ever shoot her.

 

Lost_Count

(555 posts)
145. Reminds me of a Carlin bit...
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 04:34 PM
Mar 2014

About being beaten to death by a man with a monstrous dildo and wearing a bugs bunny suit. You want assurances against that as well?

You want guarantees in life? Go to the men's wear house because beyond that they are few and far between.

Ha... Guarantee... You guys crack me up.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
147. Statistics
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 04:41 PM
Mar 2014

Number of people slain by dildo wielding bunnies in the history of the world? ZERO

Number of people slain so far this year by guns? 1937

According to the Gun Violence Archive, 3,185 people have been injured by gun violence in America and 1,937 have been killed since Jan. 1, 2014.

http://nocera.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/weekend-gun-report-march-7-9-2014/


I'll take my chances with the dildo wielding bunny...
 

Lost_Count

(555 posts)
149. Yes... statistics...
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 04:57 PM
Mar 2014

In a nation of 300 million people...

I'd say those are some pretty good odds.

 

Lost_Count

(555 posts)
210. Not entirely sure what that means... but...
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 09:12 AM
Mar 2014

1) The amazing thing about being an amendment to the Bill of Rights is that it needs no justification.

2) Anyone who says "I cannot be convinced of X no matter the proof or justification" is by definition, closed minded.

3) Sounds like you want a big bubble of 100% security and safety at all times. 99.99999% just doesn't seem to cut it. The problem is that you want everyone else to adjust their choices and behaviors so you can feel super duper mega secure... at all times...

How incredibly dull....

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
57. Many share my "irrational fears"...
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:32 PM
Mar 2014

I know lots of people who (because of guns) don't like to go to:

Malls, esp before Xmas
Movie theatres
Schools (I have relatives teaching in them and they think about this often).
Wal-mart
Sports events
Train stations and airports
------

--it's more who worry about this than you think. Look at the stats for anxiety and depression. Talk to psychologists.

All I'm asking is for real gun control. And until that happens, this is a primitive, irrational society. Only the irrational would NOT be afraid of what is occurring in this country. We are all hostages to this insanity.

My truth --but I certainly don't expect gun lovers who are against reasonable gun control to ever get it.

Have a nice day in Your World.

Lasher

(28,611 posts)
63. No, there is not more to worry about than I think.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:45 PM
Mar 2014

If all guns were to disappear today, would you and lots of others still be afraid to go to those places? I ask this because you are much more likely to die from an accident than you are from murder in any form. Disproportionate fear is irrational.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
73. People don't live by statistics
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:13 PM
Mar 2014

--we've all had the experience of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Risk, by the numbers in the abstract sense, is not the point.

When we subconsciously absorb the incidence of gun violence near and far--via the local papers, internet, and TV --about things like school shootings and drive-by shootings and gun accidents and wanton killings that go on every day in this country, it takes a toll on our perception of our health and safety that you can't erase from memory banks and nervous systems. This situation makes people feel vulnerable, unsupported and un-cared for in the most basic sense. It makes us all slightly crazy and paranoid. It makes us all brutal. Humans are tuned in to threat. We are on alert when we go out in public now. We think about it, try to repress, but we are aware. We know what it feels like to live in far off places where this happens all the time. Because it is happening here.

It is also hurting us economically and politically, but I don't have time for a longer essay on it.

I've lived in Australia. Don't knock it til you try it. It changes everything to know that you are protected and that other innocent people are protected from idiots with guns. You look at other people differently, you are far less suspicious. Gun control makes SUCH a difference in quality of life for everyone. But Australia has a government that invests in the health of its people. We do the exact opposite.

Oh yeah, and I should add fear of going to hospitals and court rooms in that list of Where Not to Go (without worry & caution). Have you ever been in a hospital lockdown? I have. More than once.

This is a tragedy of national proportions. Symptomatic of a divisive society.

Lasher

(28,611 posts)
90. No, I have never been in a hospital lockdown.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:53 PM
Mar 2014

I want you to think about when you argue that we should outlaw private ownership of guns. I assume you don't own any guns, so there would be no immediate consequence for you personally. But I have heirlooms that have been in my family for four generations. Either I surrender my grandfather's squirrel gun (for example) for destruction or I go to prison. This isn't just about me or you, there's lots of stories just like mine all across the nation.

Look, I think you are a nice person but I don't think we'll get anywhere with this discussion. I want to leave you with this thought and then you can have the last word if you want it.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
151. Talk about irrational fears...
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 05:13 PM
Mar 2014

I can't imagine anybody coming to get your grandfather's squirrel gun, and going to prison for owning a legal gun is not even a realistic possibility. Maybe you've bought into the NRA rhetoric? Re-lax about that.

I did NOT say anywhere that we should outlaw private ownership of guns in this country. I would like for them to be limited to sport shooting like in Australia, but the numbers are too huge here and people are too obsessed with arming themselves. They never understand that it just increases the likelihood that the gun will be used against them or a member of their own family.

Guns these days are mainly symbolic--they represent the idea of safety and security and control, rather than actually providing it. There's also the element of male bonding like you describe around guns. (But no, I don't equate squirrel guns with hyper-macho AR-15 luv). So put the antique in the locked case and remember grandad. Maybe one day people won't feel we need them around the house anymore. The country would have to change a lot for us to get to that point. Not in our lifetimes, I'm sure.

Meanwhile we need far better gun laws and regulations so that the country can progress out of these dark times. For example I would favor the parents of any kid who gets his hands on a gun and injures/kills, either accidentally or on purpose, to be prosecuted just as if the adult had done the crime. Then you would see adults being a lot more responsible. That sort of common sense approach is not unreasonable.

We've all had TOO MANY gun suicides, accidents, murders and mayhem in our neighborhoods. A lot of it didn't need to happen. It is taking a toll on our society's ability to function. We are learning not to trust anyone and to fear public situations, workplaces and schools. This is sick. This is like living in a war zone.

Right now we just need to stop the needless carnage & we're not talking about squirrels.

Thanks for the friendly discussion. Refreshing.

NutmegYankee

(16,384 posts)
164. Interesting.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 07:25 PM
Mar 2014

I'm often told on DU that gun owners are afraid of the world. It appears that was just projection.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
166. I find most people
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 07:48 PM
Mar 2014

in this country fearful and defensive.

We just have different ways of dealing with uncertainty. Gun owners think "a gun will make me safe" --but it doesn't really provide safety, actually the opposite in many cases. It's an illusion.

People who don't like living in a country where people, many of them children, are needlessly shot and killed all the time -- are afraid for good reason.

This unregulated gun violence insanity hurts us all, including responsible gun owners.

NutmegYankee

(16,384 posts)
170. I think a gun will propel lead bullets really fast.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 07:59 PM
Mar 2014

And I like to make holes in Olympic style targets with them for fun, or take down some of the vastly overpopulated deer population. I still have some venison steaks left over from fall, though I've eaten most of it. I find it odd you don't acknowledge those uses. The fear thing IS irrational. I am NEVER worried that I may get shot while out in public or at home. And the odds clearly show it is extremely unlikely to happen.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
206. Whatever
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 07:24 AM
Mar 2014

you choose to play the odds. That hasn't worked well for a LOT of people, including the victims of gun violence. Seems gun owners would have more compassion for the victims of the daily carnage.

So it's all about target shooting and deer in your world. Mkay. In my world reasonable gun control that leaves people doing target shooting and deer killing could remain as a pastime. I'm talking about the insane belief that guns will keep you safe. Haven't you encountered that obsession/delusion? As a society, it is killing us.

NutmegYankee

(16,384 posts)
213. Do you really think you'll be shot on any given day?
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 10:25 AM
Mar 2014

2/3rds of all gun deaths are suicides in the USA. They killed themselves on purpose. You could make the argument that our suicide rate (per 100,000) is high because of guns, but Australia And the UK are only a little lower and France is higher than us. Obviously guns are not the suicide problem in those countries. In reality, Suicide is driven by our economic and social system that just crushes people until they see no other option.

The non-suicide rate of gun deaths are 1/3 of the automobile crash deaths, meaning I'm 3 times more likely to die just driving to work each day. Of those gun deaths, most occur in high density urban areas with significant socioeconomic problems, often related to gangs and drugs. Honestly, I think ending the war on drugs, dramatically increasing the minimum wage, implementing jobs programs in urban areas, and expanding our economic aid programs (like heavily subsidized national child care) would greatly reduce those deaths.

But instead, our "gun control activists" ignore that and focus on gun owners out in suburbs or in rural areas. All because the goal is simple - Make gun ownership so onerous and expensive that only the wealthy and the elite can own guns and hunt or do target shooting. You stated "In my world reasonable gun control that leaves people doing target shooting and deer killing could remain as a pastime". And it would for the wealthy because the unwashed masses can't be trusted with such things as guns.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
214. Once again statistics...
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 11:26 AM
Mar 2014


I'm "focused on" the guns in schools, malls, hospitals, parks, sports arenas, Disneyland---you name it. Any public places. I'm focused on the accidents, suicides, and murders that occur in inner cities, suburbs and rural. Not to mention the just plain stupid shit. In every neighborhood in this country. Everyone knows someone who has been directly affected by it. No point in making any big distinctions as far as location. The gun thing is an important rightwing tool of division-- playing into people's fears and alliances (wow this'll scare those Obama lovin Libruls)...drowning out any voices begging for reasonable regulation.

The gun has become a fetish object, a symbol of personal power (because we really don't have much power in a corporatocracy). So if I get one of these...I'll be In Control. What a big lie.

It's a sickness that goes beyond statistics, when you can buy this--advertized as an "anti-gun nut's worst nightmare":

NutmegYankee

(16,384 posts)
217. Yeah, how dare I use facts.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 11:50 AM
Mar 2014

Sorry, your fear is irrational. You state everyone knows someone affected by it. I'm sure everyone knows someone affected by auto accidents, cancer and heart disease as well. In in far greater numbers too!

If you actually wanted to reduce gun violence, you would focus on topics like ending the war on drugs, dramatically increasing the minimum wage, implementing jobs programs in urban areas, and expanding our economic aid programs (like heavily subsidized national child care). You do not focus on those because ending gun violence is not your goal. Your goal is control of people, not guns.

And yes, the right wing uses gun control to divide. It's actually an oddity, as right wing ideology usually couldn't give a damn about equal rights from the Bill of Rights. I'm a Liberal. Liberals believe in equal rights for all and in fighting to ensure everyone has the rights guaranteed by the Constitution. And we work to introduce new human rights, like health care and marriage equality. Liberals believe in upholding the Bill of Rights.

The gun control movement on the other hand is more like the prohibition movement. The Prohibition movement sincerely thought they were making the country a better place by banning alcohol, and considered themselves progressive. The result was a disaster. One of the consequences was a virtual cultural genocide of German American heritage.

Millions of Democrats own firearms and do so peacefully. Why do you go after us? Does the image of me hunting for deer upset you just like two men kissing and holding hands upsets the religious right?

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
236. This group is for realistic gun control
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 02:17 PM
Mar 2014
https://momsdemandaction.org/

You don't read what I said--it's not about deer or target shooting, but I know, that's the party line...

It's about dead people, many of them kids.

Guns provide a false sense of security & control--that's why people want them and are blind to the consequences.

Go ahead and have the last word. I know you think it's too bad about dead people.

you gun zealots don't have to worry--you know that there's no such thing as gun prohibition in Murka--but the rest of us have to suffer with it.

NutmegYankee

(16,384 posts)
237. I read it, I just don't believe you
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 02:38 PM
Mar 2014

Gun owning Democrats don't trust you, because your movement just gushes out contempt for us. Do you really think people are going to work with and trust people who demonstrate hatred and outright contempt day after day for people just exercising a Constitutional Civil Right? Do you really think disparaging us, like making inappropriate jokes that our hobbies are related to the size of genitalia, or saying we only own guns because we are afraid is going to bring us on board? All you do is give me more reasons to not trust your intentions. I'd be completely on board with Universal background checks for a fee of $5, easily completed at any government building or retailer. But your movement wants to make it expensive and difficult, Why? And the answer is obvious. You don't want to stop guns getting into the streets - you want to beat down and punish the rabble.

You see it over and over again. Why is a registration price $10 in upstate NY, but over $300 in NYC? I would love to work with reasonable people to end the plague of gun violence. Sadly, I have met very few of those people.


marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
240. oh for petes whatever
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 05:34 PM
Mar 2014

will somebody please call the Whhaaaammbulance...

"beat down and punish the rabble"--LOL. I consider myself part of the rabble.

NutmegYankee

(16,384 posts)
241. Not sure where you thought I was whining.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 05:59 PM
Mar 2014

I was just laying out the truth. Gun owners will not work with a movement that treats them like shit. And if you consider yourself part of the rabble, stop serving your masters.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
248. Selected this for you
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 06:28 PM
Mar 2014

and sincerely, thanks for the chat. I have no masters to worry about.





The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
257. It is not more a fetish than wanting to keep abortions legal is
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 11:59 PM
Mar 2014

People get a little upset when others try to remove their rights.

I don't own a gun - the whole debate is about freedom and not letting people peddle fear and proposing solutions to that fear like "Let's make owning a gun illegal except for the government"

Over ninety nine percent of gun owners won't harm anyone with them, allow their kids to find and use them, etc. So the problem isn't that most people aren't responsible, the problem is the same (as I have noted) that we see with fox news and welfare recipients. Pick the bad apples and only talk about/show them, drum up fear of everyone else in that group (bias), have someone with power fix the problem for you and make you feel better.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
261. Imagine a country
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 04:11 AM
Mar 2014

where we're not subjected to the daily carnage reports, where nobody fears public places and where masses of people don't feel they have to arm themselves. Try to imagine that. As I've said over & over if you only have guns for actual hunting or sport, then I'm not talking to you. I am talking to people who feel that the world is so dangerous they need to carry lethal weapons for self-defense. Think about it. This is a tragic devolution.

If anyone could fix this problem, it would not only make me feel better it would change the country. There are many things short of banning that would help so much. But it's kind of like getting over the addiction to cars and providing good public transport. Or serious protection from tainted food. Or moving immediately to sustainable energy. We are not allowed to have those things in these dark and troubled times. We are not allowed to have even reasonable gun controls. Americans are so cautious, suspicious, untrusting, basically paranoid. The rate of gun ownership is a symptom of a sick society, a national failure. It hurts us all individually and collectively in too many ways to list.

The fact of this insane rush to guns for self protection is what is so damaging. It's not only the grim statistics, the daily carnage, it's the selling of a commodity to a gullible fearful public that does in no way make people safer, under false pretenses. But it makes some elements of society a shitload of money. It's the big lie of it that bothers me. Most people cannot defend themselves with a gun. It only makes them feel safer. Oh sure we do lots of things out of compulsion, for dubious psychological reasons, but buying guns should not be one of them.

We desperately need reasonable & fair gun control but because of extremists we will not have it. It's part of the whole degeneration of America as a whole. And future historians will see it that way. America became a backward state in the 21st century, unable to solve its own problems. Sinking into Idiocracy.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
263. I don't really agree with your view
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 04:46 AM
Mar 2014

" But it's kind of like getting over the addiction to cars and providing good public transport."

Public transportation in some big city areas is great and a good goal. Not going to work in Montana, Alaska, and many other states except in small pockets. Which is an admirable goal but it does not apply to a great many in this country.

" I am talking to people who feel that the world is so dangerous they need to carry lethal weapons for self-defense."

I ain't getting younger and my health isn't getting better. In the hood I live in I wouldn't stand much of a chance during a robbery or with thugs on the streets here. People fighting right in front of my home with ball bats, machetes, and on occasion guns flashing. Cops are slow to get here. I don't own a gun now but eventually I wouldn't mind having one around here. I have memorized the number to the police dispatcher here (not 911). The violence around here is fueled by drugs (pill heads, pot, crack). Fact of the matter is the world can be a dangerous place and being able to defend oneself when not in great health isn't something I think people should be made to feel bad about.

"It's not only the grim statistics, the daily carnage, it's the selling of a commodity to a gullible fearful public that does in no way make people safer, under false pretenses. "

The fact that you know someone owns a gun can be a deterrent. That won't show up in stats. I know most the people here our small hood (about 86 homes) and the druggies here know it as well. Don't work much for those who come here from elsewhere. One neighbor down in the court had someone breaking in and he got his gun and scared them off. Elderly man who lives alone. He called the cops and they took a report and nothing more was done. I have called the cops who caught people breaking into abandoned homes here and they have done nothing, no report, no arrests, no follow ups.


"Americans are so cautious, suspicious, untrusting, basically paranoid. "

Yes we are - and this is fueled by people in both parties. See something, say something campaigns. Can't carry bottled water on planes. And a news media that generally shows one side of an issue when it comes to guns. You have over 45 million stories a day of people who own guns who don't do anything at all bad with them but we shown the few and told to fear the many.

Growing up our biggest fear was stranger danger and the Soviets. Everyone not your relative or neighbor was a potential kidnapper. There would be a nuclear war any day unless the us government had more money for military and pulled odd policy stunts.

Self defense is a natural concern and the ability to level the playing field is a good idea. Some may take that to an extreme and carry a gun everywhere (and personally I could see that in this area where people are selling drugs at the gas station and there have been shootings and the like there) but overall most I know generally keep a gun at home. My dad never carries his - but he did take it out last year to the front of the house during a big dust up with the druggies who were parked in front of our house and shouting at the neighbors. We also had a mini riot here with about twenty people swinging bats, one (maybe more) had a gun they tossed when the cops finally showed up, and this was two doors down from us. A gang of people in the street beating each other up over stupid shit.

My brother and two of my nieces have been robbed at gun point, my nephew was at the gas station when a dealer shot at someone. My one niece has been robbed twice, once at work and once outside a store where she was pistol whipped and her car stolen (she got it back).

You want a little less crime? Don't worry about the guns so much as the drugs/addictions/mental issues that go unchecked. The day after that little riot the guy whose house the lady kicked in the door was down here talking to me. A deputy pulled up and talked to him and I about it all (the cops all know him....) and the guy asked why he didn't just shoot her when she kicked in the door. He couldn't own a gun as he is felon but he did go buy a black powder pistol after that (which he can own).

The cops ain't coming to save you - they are coming to clean up the mess and take a report that will be buried under a mountain of other ones.

Guns are tools just like anything else. You want crime to drop get to the root of the problem. I have watched this area go from a safe and decent place growing up to a drug infested and crime ridden hell hole - and it wasn't guns that did it.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
264. You've described it well...
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 05:03 AM
Mar 2014

the hell hole this nation has become. My SO once saw an insane man who never should have owned a gun shoot four people dead in the street with a high-powered rifle, from his office window. He had just come in from the same street. He's never really gotten over it. But owning a gun would not help.

Yes, absolutely--societal & mental health issues need to be addressed at the same time as the more effective regulation of guns.

Good luck. (That's the only thing stopping any of us from being shot). It's a public health issue. And now we are told more young American men will die of gun violence than accidents.

Shameful, for a number of reasons.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
336. Talk to people
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 09:31 AM
Mar 2014

instead of just arguing statistics.

Most people no matter what your neighborhood, have been exposed to gun violence in some form.

This is what sticks in people's minds and helps to sell more guns.

 

Lost_Count

(555 posts)
339. I chuckle...
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 11:19 AM
Mar 2014

... Because I live near an Army base and most of the guys I know have caused gun violence, just not in this country.

Secondly because you want to abandon facts and math in favor of anecdotal stories.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
342. Re Facts
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 12:49 PM
Mar 2014

So if this country is so safe and all, why are people arming themselves to an unprecedented degree? And filling the coffers of gun manufacturers?

If the risk is going down, why is the perceived risk going up?

People don't follow statistics. They see and react to what is going on around them. This in fact, is fact.

sarisataka

(21,534 posts)
173. A fear isn't deemed rational
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 08:13 PM
Mar 2014

Just because many people have it. My wife is terrified of clowns. It is the third most common fear after claustrophobia and fear of the dark; yet she will be the first to admit it is not a rational fear.

A fear of a statistically rare occurrence, even if it is something that causes harm, to the extent that it alters a person's daily routine is irrational.

I can agree there is room for improvement in our laws re: guns but I have never left my house expecting to be shot.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
207. You must live in a nice world
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 07:45 AM
Mar 2014

Where I am there is every reason to fear gun violence any where you go. Also just the fear of it is damaging. I have relatives who teach in public schools. In addition to low pay and stressful working conditions, they worry about guns in schools. Always at the back of their minds, all the time. Statistics don't mean shit to people living with the very real possibility.

This ain't right. And gun lovers know it. But still they object to the most reasonable laws and regulation. So selfish. I think it's a power thing, of feeling better and more "in control" than people who don't use guns. Gun owners don't respect people who rightly worry about the damage that the every day death toll takes in this devolving primitive country. They scoff at those calling for reasonable controls. It's "us vs them" mentality. This division is very negative to our mutual future.

Sure, no gun control is just one of many symptoms of a dysfunctional society. If you like it fine. But I don't think you could imagine the ways in which this country would be different if we could really stop the needless killing and injury. Talk to doctors and staff in ERs--they'll tell you all about it. The constant stream of gun victims.

sarisataka

(21,534 posts)
211. I live in the real world
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 09:20 AM
Mar 2014

Their is violence in many places.

My wife worked as a behavioral specialist in a public school for several years. She left because district policies prevented her from any actions that might actually help kids with behavioral issues; it was always treat the symptom, ignore the cause. She did not fear being shot among this high risk population.
At the end of last year I moved from a block that saw the SWAT team do no-knock warrants 2-3 times each year. I watched police tackle, disarm and arrest a wanted felon on my front yard. I did not fear being shot
I know statistics reflect the real world and even living in a high risk area, the likelihood of being a victim of gun violence is low. Even in high risk places.

I am all for reasonable laws and regulations. What I scoff at are those who promote restriction that is not different than prohibition as being reasonable. I scoff at those who say no one wants to ban all guns yet believes privately owned guns should be locked under government control to be 'checked out' for approved use. I scoff at those who say gun owners who are in favor of better background checks expanded to all sales, laws which will enforce responsibility and accountability to gun owners whose guns are used in crime, enhanced penalties for crimes involving the use of guns... are gun owners who oppose all regulations.

Way back in the day, early 90's, I worked as security supervisor at a county hospital in a metro area. I spent much time in the ER. There were a lot of injuries from violence. Gun shots were a small amount, knives and blunt objects accounted for many more injuries/deaths. Most gun shots resulted from retaliation to other injuries as violence moved in an escalating spiral.

Yes, gun shots can be rather horrible wounds, but many things can cause death. I want to reduce the overall violence. Gun injuries should follow.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
338. That group is as phony as the Kochs' Americans For Prosperity
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 11:05 AM
Mar 2014

Owned by an authoritarian billionaire and operated by the former head of PR
for Monsanto. At the moment, they're outnumbered circa 20:1 by the NRA-
which is even more pathetic when one realizes that NRA membership costs
at least $25 a year, while one can 'join' MDA by clicking "Like" on one of their
Facebook pages...

No thanks.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
341. Not sure why
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 12:43 PM
Mar 2014

you'd be against Moms Demand Action just because it's been recently endorsed by Bloomberg's Mayors Against Illegal Guns.

My guess is you'd be against anything that's effective when it comes to gun control. In some people's view there should be no opposition to whatever they want.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
346. You're 0 for 2 for accuracy -they weren't "endorsed" by MAIG, they were taken over by them
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:07 AM
Mar 2014
https://momsdemandaction.org/in-the-news/mayors-illegal-guns-moms-demand-action-join-forces-unite-national-movement-protect-communities-save-lives/

December 19, 2013 By Moms Demand Action

Merger Brings Together Americans From Every Background to Fight For Common-Sense Reforms to Keep Guns Out of Dangerous Hands

Mayors Against Illegal Guns and Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America today announced their merger into a nationwide movement of Americans working together to end gun violence.


Note the date- this happened just before MDA would have had to file a Form 990 with the IRS documenting what their income is and where it came from. Now, we needn't wonder- it comes from Bloomberg's pocket.

My guess is you'd be against anything that's effective when it comes to gun control.


And you would be wrong- I support universal background checks and have said so on multiple
occasions:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172126715

Hell must be freezing over- there really *is* common ground at DU on guns:
I find myself in agreement with BainsBane about a proposed law. Yes, you read that correctly...

DUers should support King-Thompson (a restart of Manchin-Toomey), AKA H.R. 1565:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12623636

Support King-Thompson on background checks


Check it out for yourselves:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr1565/text

I still think the "family exemptions" on background checks might be problematic, but there are other
parts I like very much indeed:

1) Puts teeth into the requirement for states to enter disqualifying information into the NICS
database, and

2) Puts a kibosh on New York's habit of busting travelers that have secured, unloaded guns in
their baggage.

Seeing as Dianne Feinstein's assault weapons ban is nowhere to be seen this time around,
this might actually get passed and do some good!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172132295

Are you going to support universal background checks IF they come without registration?
I ask this after reading krispos42's excellent OP the other day:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172132038

A proposal for universal background checks and reducing arms trafficking

I certainly will, and no doubt others will as well. I suspect, as others allude to in that thread,
that many will not as they prefer an 'all or nothing' approach...


Your posts reek of Colonism:

"Sergeant Colon had had a broad education. He’d been to the School of My Dad Always Said, the College of It Stands to Reason, and was now a postgraduate student at the University of What Some Bloke In the Pub Told Me."
- Terry Pratchett, Jingo
 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
80. There was a fatal shooting right outside my son's school the other day.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:36 PM
Mar 2014

He was in the area, on the playing field.

Another friend was at the Oregon mall shooting a couple Christmases ago.

Irrational? No.

Gun violence is everywhere in this sicko, gun-humping country. It's not like that in other "civilized" countries.

NickB79

(19,770 posts)
87. Gun violence has fallen by nearly 50% in 25 years, though
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:50 PM
Mar 2014
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/05/07/181998015/rate-of-u-s-gun-violence-has-fallen-since-1993-study-says

"Firearm-related homicides dropped from 18,253 homicides in 1993 to 11,101 in 2011," according to a report by the federal , "and nonfatal firearm crimes dropped from 1.5 million victimizations in 1993 to 467,300 in 2011.

There were seven gun homicides per 100,000 people in 1993, the says, which dropped to 3.6 gun deaths in 2010. The study relied in part on data from the .


So, still far above many other civilized countries, but pretty impressive given how little we've actually done to address gun violence directly in this country.

Something other than gun control laws appears to have caused this steep decline, and I think it would pay off substantially if we figured out exactly what it was so that it could be fostered further.

flying rabbit

(4,808 posts)
230. On point
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 01:48 PM
Mar 2014

" I think it would pay off substantially if we figured out exactly what it was so that it could be fostered further."

NickB79

(19,770 posts)
239. To be clear, we could still use some new gun laws
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 03:40 PM
Mar 2014

Universal background checks are a no-brainer.

Massive increases in funding for the ATF are in order. Then they could start tracking down and arresting the 2 million people who have have been denied gun purchases by the current background check system in the past decade (and who are most likely committing a felony just trying to beat the system check).

But at the same time, we need to focus on things that effect gun violence outside of gun laws. Personally, I think that once states start following Colorado in allowing the sale of recreational marijuana, we're going to see an even greater drop in violent crime as a large part of the "drug war" comes to a close.

Response to PowerToThePeople (Original post)

Response to PowerToThePeople (Reply #49)

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
84. I'm far more concerned about bigoted, yahoos carrying gunz in society.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:47 PM
Mar 2014

You know, the right/white wing TParty types that make up the vast majority of gun fanciers.

 

CVN-68

(97 posts)
88. I personally know several liberal dems who have CCW's
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:51 PM
Mar 2014

they're not bigoted, right/white wing TParty types.
And I would bet that most that do have a CCW aren't as you discribe either.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
100. Go to a gun show, gun store, gun promotional march, etc. Tell me what you see.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 02:01 PM
Mar 2014

Most recent white wing gun promotional march, polluting the Austin, Texas South by Southwest (SXSW) Festival:

 

CVN-68

(97 posts)
103. I've been to plenty of gun shows.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 02:04 PM
Mar 2014

Very diverse crowds at the ones I've been to.

I see a picture, so what? You think that proves that most gun owners are bigoted right/white TParty types?

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
106. Diverse crowd? LMAO. Post a couple of photos of those diverse crowds. Still LMAO.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 02:10 PM
Mar 2014
 

CVN-68

(97 posts)
108. Are you kidding me?
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 02:20 PM
Mar 2014

I go to gun shows to check out the merchandise, not to take pictures.
And, I don't have to prove anything to you.
Done.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
119. You can't prove it to me. Plenty of images on the "internets." Post a few of those.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 02:40 PM
Mar 2014






https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQajW3oCLwvFLufBU145b5f_uHlXinT9mytcpEi6UaIo5KFwOmn7w

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ2iYK0V0wApkmQmzyYHiHxjjz1PnBwYYV8zSpAHzwWZqRWhSg6VA



By the way, why don't they allow loaded gunz in people's pants in gun shows, gun stores, NRA headquarters, etc.




Here's another, showing lack of diversity in those who hang out at gun shows to purchase gunz without background checks (something the gun fanciers tell us doesn't happen).


hack89

(39,180 posts)
107. You are wasting your time with Hoyt
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 02:13 PM
Mar 2014

even though I am half convinced he has his tongue firmly planted in his cheek and it is an act. No one can be that over the top, especially on a serious issue.

 

CVN-68

(97 posts)
109. Thanks for the information.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 02:22 PM
Mar 2014

I guess my best bet is to just ignore what he has to say as far as guns are the subject.

Paladin

(29,399 posts)
112. Welcome to you, a member of the latest pro-gun cadre here at DU.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 02:30 PM
Mar 2014

Quite a few of you in this latest batch, aren't there? Enjoy your stay.
 

AnalystInParadise

(1,832 posts)
148. To some people here yes it is a very bad thing.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 04:51 PM
Mar 2014

I am the devil incarnate to some around these parts. I am a military veteran, current Defense Contractor, proud gun owning, proud and very religious, proud homeschooling dad, mixed race Hispanic male, that also happens to be very liberal on social and economic issues and has a lifetime history of straight line voting for Democrats in every election since I was 18. Some people around here want me to drop dead showing how "tolerant" they really are, I have the Private messages to prove it. Don't let them get you down.

 

CVN-68

(97 posts)
162. Meh.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 07:18 PM
Mar 2014

After 35 years of Naval service, all those years at sea, not all 35, but a majority, I've got a pretty tough skin.
Thank you for the advice though.

Union Scribe

(7,099 posts)
200. He's on the wrong side of other issues as well.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 09:15 PM
Mar 2014

Anti-union, pro "free" trade globalism. A real liberal, that one.

 

TheKentuckian

(26,314 posts)
208. Got to be "liberal" on something, might as be the same thing as DiFi.
Sat Mar 15, 2014, 08:05 AM
Mar 2014

Gives cover for when he says he'd rather cut Social Security than eliminate the cap. He'll also claim that those saved dollars will magically be redistributed to those in need rather than to corporate and wealthy coffers as is the current condition based on some future act that would be precluded by proper funding of the safety nets now.

Say your "Hail Obama" and foam at the mouth about redneck gun owners (forget us minority owners, we are a figment. Forget those that are not reds, they are undercover) and that means you can run as far to the corporate right right as you like short of full blown Teabaggerism.

Response to baldguy (Reply #181)

Response to baldguy (Reply #195)

Straw Man

(6,838 posts)
290. And yet ...
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:26 AM
Mar 2014
Most recent white wing gun promotional march, polluting the Austin, Texas South by Southwest (SXSW) Festival ...

... the only murders that occurred at SXSW can be attributed to alcohol and motor vehicles.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/austin-man-fights-life-wife-killed-driver-charged-sxsw-crash-killed-article-1.1722416

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
292. Murders are not the only adverse effect of gunz. The white wing gun hatred has a toll too.
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 04:24 AM
Mar 2014

But to gun fanciers, it's just the price we are forced to pay to preserve gun culture's access to their babies (as the yahoo in the 2008 primaries called them. Loved Biden's response, BTW).

Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #188)

Response to Hoyt (Reply #76)

shenmue

(38,540 posts)
56. I wish we could
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:31 PM
Mar 2014

But it'll probably never fly. There is too much devotion to the Second Amendment. I wish we could make things like Japan or Canada, but there are just too many differences. So the best I can hope for is more background checks, things like that.

Response to shenmue (Reply #56)

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
77. "A gun" is not so bad. A bunch of gunz or carrying one in your pants while at Chuck E Cheese is bad.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:30 PM
Mar 2014

Response to Hoyt (Reply #77)

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
139. Mostly agree. However, I don't think poverty is what prompts folks to carry and accumulate gunz.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 03:59 PM
Mar 2014

Poverty had little if anything to do with Zimmerman, Dunn, Lanza, etc., or the right wing gun nut who is attracted to the dang things to intimidate.

But, I do agree with what you said as far as the people who turn to crime for economic reasons.

Response to Hoyt (Reply #139)

Deep13

(39,157 posts)
58. I think the Army still needs its guns.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:35 PM
Mar 2014

Maybe you meant civilians only. Even then, I don't think it necessary. Canadian or Australian type restrictions would be good enough.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
60. You are correct.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:40 PM
Mar 2014

The poll was about non-military weaponry. I did not specify that.

In fact, I am not against ANY form of ownership. Maybe a system where your weapons are in the care of the National Guard and you can check them out for limited periods for target shooting, etc.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
269. stupefying is equating guns and power.
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 07:46 AM
Mar 2014
An armed soldier relies on his weapons for his strength. Take away from him his weapons--his gun or his sword, and he generally becomes helpless. But a person who has truly realized the principle of nonviolence has the God-given strength for his weapon and the world has not known anything that can match it.

A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history.

Nonviolence of the strong is any day stronger than that of the bravest soldier fully armed or a whole host.
 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
272. "Power to the People" advocates ceding enumerated
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 07:59 AM
Mar 2014

Civil liberties to the government. ..irony is someone using a handle with no clue the meaning or history.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
273. ...
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 08:07 AM
Mar 2014

The handle is mine, the meaning to me is what I make of it. I see no irony in regards to my position and my handle. I do not believe that this "enumerated civil liberty" is one that should have manifested itself into the form which appears today. In my opinion what we have today is not what the writers of the Constitution would have meant within the text of the 2nd amendment.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
278. Well you are at odds with virtually every constitutional
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 09:56 AM
Mar 2014

Scholar, judge, decision, and interpretation I have ever heard or read if you believe there is anything resembling intent of the amendment in :

Maybe a system where your weapons are in the care of the National Guard and you can check them out for limited periods for target shooting, etc.

I personally would like to see a goal of "complete eradication."


"Should we be passing legislation to remove items that serve no purpose but causation of death from our great Nation?"


 

Lost_Count

(555 posts)
282. It doesn't fit because he doesn't want it to...
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:18 AM
Mar 2014

... and for most of the 90% Bill of Rights crowd that is good enough.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
262. Cars kill way more people than firearms,
Sun Mar 16, 2014, 04:13 AM
Mar 2014

so soldiers should just drive around the battlefield, preferably drunk, and kill everyone that way.

This is a joke.

rollin74

(2,143 posts)
62. over 300 million privately owned guns in the United States
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:45 PM
Mar 2014

America is NEVER going to be even remotely close to "gun-free"

how would passing legislation get rid of all the guns that are already out there?


never going to happen

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
66. On January 1, 1863 there were 3.1 - 4 million privately owned people in the United States.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:50 PM
Mar 2014

We succeeded in becoming slave free.

 

CVN-68

(97 posts)
74. We have?
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:21 PM
Mar 2014

Wouldn't you agree that Corp. are the new slave owners?

And your analogy is dead wrong.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
79. Let's just leave things as they are for another decade, and there will be 400 million to deal with.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:31 PM
Mar 2014

Sooner or later, we are going to wise up and bite the bullet like Australia in 1996. Why keep making it tougher.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
83. Kind of like cigarettes, folks will get tired of yahoos polluting society with gunz.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:46 PM
Mar 2014
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
86. Can't just concentrate on the "murder" rate. Gunz facilitate a lot of intimidation and embolden
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:49 PM
Mar 2014

bigoted yahoos.

SQUEE

(1,320 posts)
308. And guns intimidate felons and armed robbers too.
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 08:49 AM
Mar 2014

Can't have criminals in fear can we? Disarmament would embolden the kind of person that preys on others, we cant all have black belts in bean can and bicycle tire combat...
I shoot with a diverse and eclectic crowd, most are straight ticket Democrats, UNION members and supporters of living wage, Universal healthcare and marrige availibility as well as reproductive freedoms, otherwise I'd not spend my time with them... Most own weapons for protection, though many shoot for sport. You're "experience" indicates otherwise? Maybe you should quit going to NRA sponsored gun shows and evnts.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
309. I'll check out your favorite gun shows, give me names.
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 09:07 AM
Mar 2014

Bet they are no different. Criminals who think you are armed, just shoot you before you know what has happened. Doesn't protect you, just makes the gun fancier feel better about themselves.

SQUEE

(1,320 posts)
311. I don't attend "gun shows".
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:05 AM
Mar 2014

I have plenty of beef jerky, and don't collect beanie babies, nor Support the NRA. I have attended SHOT, and proffesional trade shows that feature many types of weapons, but the local type shows, well they are not my cup of Tea.

I guarantee that very few people on the planet look at me and think "armed". But, having done PPD and site security I have been armed to a level that would make many a banner faint, all while not showing it.
I, NOW, choose not to carry, it is actually exhausting having to be alert at all times, which I regard as the price one pays for the right and responsibility of carry in public. But I also know that in the area I live in CCW offers herd immunity, because no one knows who is or isnt armed.
the uncertainty itself is a deterent.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
313. So you haven't been to any gun shows to offer an opinion of the level of diversity. OK thanks.
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:41 AM
Mar 2014

Herd impunity, it's likely just the opposite. When criminals think most are armed, they just shoot first. So you and your herd buddies, might well be responsible for some innocent people being shot for their wallets, etc.

You guys like to think your gunz prevent crime or bad outcomes. Well, it's often just the opposite.

SQUEE

(1,320 posts)
315. OH how funny, how terribly rich.
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:40 AM
Mar 2014

YOUR buddies, you know people that have commited felonies, such as ARMED ROBBERY, arent responsible instead it is the people that feel a need to protect themselves from such that are the reason... OMG, really, again I can't stop laughing at the incredible amount of denial and deflection... good thing you cant tolerate a weapon near you...
Oh Hoyt, if only we had met in our former professions.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
320. Gun toters seem to believe they can spot a criminal in time to react. They can't.
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:19 PM
Mar 2014

Criminals will have drop on the victim long before a gun toter can get their gun out, unless toter pulls it first based upon some profile of a criminal. At best, criminals will just take one's gun from toters and let them go. At worse, they'll either shoot you and then take it, or take it and shoot you with it. Guns don't really protect you, just make you feel better about yourself.

What would our "former professions" have to do with anything?

SQUEE

(1,320 posts)
321. Why are you trying to preach safety to me?
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 02:31 PM
Mar 2014

I dont carry in public, I state that regularly and emphaticly, I find it to be mentally exhausting.
I find it quite telling how much you admire the skillsets and abilities of the criminals out there. Singing the praises of felons whilst bashing the law abiding...

Your statement "At best, criminals will just take one's gun from toters and let them go", again another side splitter, will it then be disassembled Jet Li style and thrown in a pool?
That kind of Alpha style posturing would get one in trouble if one ran up against the wrong sheep.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
322. Chances of running across "the wrong sheep" are so small, it is irrational to worry about it. Now
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 03:33 PM
Mar 2014

Now the boys who feel they have to strap a gun or two on before walking down the street are a different story. They are certifiably -- CCW -- irrational and a menace to society, directly and indirectly.

SQUEE

(1,320 posts)
324. So you take your life in your hands. And continue to project your bigotry and hate.
Mon Mar 17, 2014, 03:59 PM
Mar 2014

And wonder why so few weep at the death of those intent on harming others.

I'll hold to Clausewitz over M.K. Gandhi when it comes time to rationalize violence of action.
You have "admited" to acts of theft and threatened violence, and revel in them. fortunately for my funny bone and my agenda, you did not run afoul of a true predator... Keep up your good works, and i will keep my firearms.
Good Day Hoyt, I do so love how you prove so many points for me.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
330. Of course you are; they were an occupational hazard to you at one time:
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 01:13 AM
Mar 2014
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=45338

As a former robber, I locked the door to keep people out, especially police.
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
340. If you drink while carrying or playing with a gun, you do have a problem.
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 11:40 AM
Mar 2014

You need to give them up. Suck it up and do what is right for society, not to mention your family.

SQUEE

(1,320 posts)
343. I don't drink either..
Tue Mar 18, 2014, 05:12 PM
Mar 2014

So .. yay I get to keep my guns..
I am doing what is right for society, being prepared to stop violent thieves. And protecting myself and my loved ones from predators.
Suck it up, Violent criminals with murderous intent will just have to do whats right for themselves and thier families. The onus is on the criminal not to put me in a situation to which I will resort to deadly force. I dont "pack" nor "play" with guns, so its easy for me I am only armed in places where there is no need to hesitate, and it is clear as can be I am right to fire.
long ago i decided to not carry in public, and only use deadly force within my own home.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
348. Considering how low the liklihood is, that sounds a bit irrational.
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:29 AM
Mar 2014

Seriously, crud like "murderous intent" ain't rational. As I've said before, a gun in the home is not my concern. A bunch of gunz is very different, as are irrational fears of those with "murderous intent."

SQUEE

(1,320 posts)
349. I have been told, people have been known to lock others in, all the while threatening
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 07:35 AM
Mar 2014

them with a firearm and not all are merely cowardly posturing and not having a telepathic gene in body...I'll err on the side of my life and safety.

I have a plethora of fireams, and not a single one of these gunz you are always on about, again to use your own lil turn of phrase, suck it up.. it concerns you not the least, unless you are in my home uninvited it should be of no concern... MYOB is pretty much the tennant of my life.
Having been in combat, and seen the darker side of humanity...
I prefer to maintain my deterent, sorry this gives you pause in your dealings with people.

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
347. I don't drink, but I also don't prattle on about the evils of alcohol
Wed Mar 19, 2014, 04:12 AM
Mar 2014

Like most others, I find preachy, self-righteous Prohibitionists annoying...

 

Titus

(7 posts)
158. It is working well in Connecticut
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 06:40 PM
Mar 2014

If only they could figure out who are the several hundred thousand who refused to comply with the new law and register their guns.

One_Life_To_Give

(6,036 posts)
64. That would require every square inch to have exactly zero possible use
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:49 PM
Mar 2014

Last I checked there are parts of this country where emergency services offers same week service. Subsistence hunting is still practiced in some locations. Such a regulation is as absurd in those area's as having open carry in Manhattan.

Seldom is the case when either extreme is not equally wrong.

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
69. The sentence above the poll does not follow from the subject line.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 12:55 PM
Mar 2014

They might even be at odds.

Legislation that has nothing to do with guns could ultimately create a nation of people few of whom feel a need to swagger about with guns, so that guns are more rarely on hand when disputes tuen nasty.

I'm all for banning or severely restricting the most horrifically efficient firearms, but the ideal number of legal guns in private hands (some sweet spot at which gun deaths are minimized) isn't necessarily zero. How about we start with *fewer*, and see how that works out?

 

VScott

(774 posts)
92. "from our great Nation".
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:54 PM
Mar 2014

One of the reasons this Nation is so "great" (unlike less unfortunate nations), is that we have the 2nd amendment. It's never going to be repealed or go away.

 

otohara

(24,135 posts)
171. The World Is Horrified
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 08:02 PM
Mar 2014

let's not change a thing besides who cares what they think?

USA USA USA - Politicians always talk about our moral compass compared to the rest of the world.
I laugh - moral compass my ass. All this gun violence make us look stupid and barbaric.



ecstatic

(34,607 posts)
93. Yes. It will be ugly for a while, but it's worth it
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:55 PM
Mar 2014

Anyone can see that the path we're on is not sustainable. Time to change course.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
95. I agree
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:57 PM
Mar 2014

Momentum is going towards big changes to the status quo in very many areas, this one included.

 

CVN-68

(97 posts)
104. Momentum is going towards big changes to the status quo in very many areas, this one included.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 02:07 PM
Mar 2014

Show us the momentum going towards big changes in the status quo.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
105. I do not care to answer but, [strike]the majority[/strike] many
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 02:09 PM
Mar 2014

in this thread in support of status quo are low post count, recent start date posters. Take from that what you will.

 

CVN-68

(97 posts)
111. What does low post count have to do with my question?
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 02:24 PM
Mar 2014

I see plenty here with high post counts that disagree with your thread, what do you make of that?

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
122. How low would violence be if we didn't have a bunch of armed folks running around?
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 02:52 PM
Mar 2014

hack89

(39,180 posts)
123. "It is not falling fast enough" is not the snappiest battle cry, is it?
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 02:54 PM
Mar 2014

but it goes a long way to explaining why radical gun controllers like you are on a 20 year losing streak.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
124. No, any losing streak is due to yahoos in NRA and other gun lobbying groups.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 03:04 PM
Mar 2014

You guys -- either directly or indirectly -- accept their grip on our government as long as your access to more gunz is protected. Folks like NRA leadership -- Grover Norquist, Ollie North, John Bolton, Ted Nugent, and a bunch more just as bad -- control much of Congress with respect to gunz and other right wing policies.

Too keep you guys happy with your gunz, we have to put up with their right wing policies.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
126. I'll play... How low would it be?
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 03:13 PM
Mar 2014

And please, don't tell me what you think, tell me what you know.

So exactly how low would it be?

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
131. Pretty low. Why can you tell me what you think, and I can't do the same.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 03:28 PM
Mar 2014

Just because you fancy and carry guns, doesn't mean you know any more about gunz than those who aren't steeped in the dang things.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
153. I don't carry guns.
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 05:35 PM
Mar 2014

And the Department of Justice says that in 2012, "firearm violence" made up 6.6% of all criminal victimization, according to its Criminal Victimization report released in October, 2013.

Read it for yourself...

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv12.pdf

Where have you ever read that I "carry" guns?

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
96. I think we should focus on creating a country
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 01:58 PM
Mar 2014

where everyone's needs are met and that does not have a culture of avarice and cruelty.

I suspect violence would decrease significantly in a humane society.
 

Lurks Often

(5,455 posts)
118. Then we'll go back to using knives and clubs and bows
Fri Mar 14, 2014, 02:38 PM
Mar 2014

As a species we LIKE to kill each other, we've been doing it for thousands of years.

And for some who goes by Power to the People, you sure want to make the vast majority of Americans subject to the whims of the young, fast and strong.