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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsKeynes, on how society will eventually view excessive wealth acquisition as a mental illness.
This guy was a visionary.
"When the accumulation of wealth is no longer of high social importance, there will be great changes in the code of morals. We shall be able to rid ourselves of many of the pseudo-moral principles which have hag-ridden us for two hundred years, by which we have exalted some of the most distasteful of human qualities into the position of the highest virtues. We shall be able to afford to dare to assess the money-motive at its true value. The love of money as a possession -as distinguished from the love of money as a means to the enjoyments and realities of life -will be recognised for what it is, a somewhat disgusting morbidity, one of those semi-criminal, semi-pathological propensities which one hands over with a shudder to the specialists in mental disease. All kinds of social customs and economic practices, affecting the distribution of wealth and of economic rewards and penalties, which we now maintain at all costs, however distasteful and unjust they may be in themselves, because they are tremendously useful in promoting the accumulation of capital, we shall then be free, at last, to discard. Of course there will still be many people with intense, unsatisfied purposiveness who will blindly pursue wealth-unless they can find some plausible substitute. But the rest of us will no longer be under any obligation to applaud and encourage them."
- from "Economic Possibilities for Our Grandchildren," 1930
http://www.econ.yale.edu/smith/econ116a/keynes1.pdf
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)I think the competition plays a large part in it. And the high of making the deals. It's like gambling in a way, or playing a game, but with real lives and real money. If you think of it as winning, they just want to keep feeling that winning feeling all the time.
Now, holding onto it is definitely the hoarding part.
calimary
(81,390 posts)"The Hoarding Class." Because that's exactly what they're doing. They're not "job creators"! They're HOARDERS. Hoarding their money and not letting it circulate - by hiring and spending, getting that money out into circulation. Putting a tourniquet on it for the sake of your own greed doesn't help anybody, and eventually doesn't help YOU all that much, either.
Moostache
(9,897 posts)The wealth extracting hoarding class is OK too I guess...either way, I want to see people stop referring to these parasites as anything but parasites! They are much more akin to these things:
[link:http://io9.com/12-real-parasites-that-control-the-lives-of-their-hosts-461313366|
Spinochordodes tellinii is a nematomorph hairworm that infects grasshoppers and crickets. As adults, the parasitic worms live in water and form writhing masses to breed. Grasshoppers and crickets ingest the worms' microscopic larvae when they drink the infested water.
The hairworm larvae then develop inside of the insect host. Once grown, they release powerful mind-controlling chemicals that sabotage the insect's central nervous system. The evil hairworms force the insect to jump into the nearest body of water, where it subsequently drown. Yes, the hairworms actually cause their hosts to commit suicide. The parasites then escape their deceased host and the cycle begin anew.
Now, how is THAT any different from these mutant sons of bitches who currently make up the top 1% of wealth hoarders? They suck the life blood out of the workers in their companies and also those who build their roads, fly their planes, deliver their goods, count their money, put out their fires and protect their society (thus protecting THEM)...and what do they give back? A suicide order to work harder, work longer, work, work, work until the jettison the dead carcass and start the cycle over again...
Job creators my ass...wealth extract parasites, yes...
calimary
(81,390 posts)Remoras all. The remora is often referred to as a "suckerfish." 'Cause it sucks off its host, hanging on all the while. Parasites for sure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remora
reformist2
(9,841 posts)Only to help themselves.
But now that they aren't even job creators anymore, what good are they, really, to society?
Moostache
(9,897 posts)I guess that would help explain the butt-hurt feelings of the recent Billionaires complaining in the press about being scape-goated or treated like it was Kristallnacht all over again...society would be far, far better off with out the top 300 most wealthy people in the world who suck up HALF of the planetary wealth.
I will give them this much credit... since they DO create spikes in my blood pressure, I guess they are creating demand for something...even if that something is only my blood pressure medication!!!!!
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)frazzled
(18,402 posts)For decades I've been baffled by the question as to why people of enormous wealth would want to work so hard to accumulate more and more (and more) of it--more than they can ever use or enjoy. And why they protect it so assiduously. It must take so much effort to think about money all the time. I do think there is some aspect of personality disorder (at the least) to this.
Perhaps it's because I am so entirely disinterested in money. It's such a pain in the ass for us to think about it, unless absolutely necessary. That's probably a personality disorder, too. We of course have made sure to earn enough to live a fairly nice life. And it would be nice to have more so we could travel or do some nice upgrades to our house. But in the end, we're never willing to put the effort into finding ways to make more, unless it fits our interests. It's just that pushing money around is so much more boring to us than certain other life pursuits. It's not a question of laziness (we work really hard!): it's just that money matters are not "interesting" to us. I guess it's endlessly fascinating to some people.
mopinko
(70,175 posts)watched the man i married change from a hippy child to a vice president. in the end, that veep was there all the time, making the small decisions that those who love money make.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)do you think he was seduced by power? Or is there another explanation?
mopinko
(70,175 posts)every choice between job and family fell on the money side.
he works for a sick org. they rewarded all this shit well. and they keep it going with more and more money.
i think he just really wanted the acceptance that was not there in his family, but i can't say.
def a broken person, tho, from long time.
the more he made the more frustrated he got trying to hang on to it.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)mopinko
(70,175 posts)money=love
that's what he grew up with. between all the bickering.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)having lived abroad, I know how in this country each person has to make his or her own solitary way. There's no real community, few real friendships, very little disperse and disunited family, almost no adequate social programs. Financial security (where food, shelter and healthcare will come from), are always in danger of disappearing for each individual in the U.S., and it's an axe always floating above our heads, waiting to fall. And so I imagine that the acquisition of money can also come from the terror of living in a society such as this.
mopinko
(70,175 posts)especially harmful to children raised in uncertainty.
they made their own, as many people do, but what you say is absolutely true. abundance leads to peace, want leads to fear. fear is poison.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)marions ghost
(19,841 posts)--I agree. I think there are deep anti-social aspects to the kind of wealth hoarding we see in the US today. And the Corporates themselves are reaping BIG profits off the general anxiety about the rest of us having enough to live on.
Imagine--NOT worrying about your most basic needs being met, even if you fall ill or become destitute.
It changes everything about how people view each other and treat each other. For example, my health insurance policy is far less adequate than my sister's, but I am stuck with it. Breeds resentment. OTOH my friend who has had no insurance, has always resented me for having any at all (he finally got Obamacare after 25 years with no coverage). These inequities over basic life support issues--hurt all of us.
I agree with you--there is very little REAL sense of community, where people pull together for the common good, where people trust others instead of being suspicious of everyone's motives, where people can really do kind things (time is money--can't waste it on do-gooderism). But even if you want to invest in friends and neighbors or other groups (ie community) --it is very naive NOT to be suspicious in a country this corrupt where everything is reduced to Buyer Beware. Others may well take advantage of you if you are in any way perceived as overly generous (for example with your time, which is all I have to give, not money). We all learn to be street smart and skeptical of everything. In America the concept of community does not involve commitment. It does not involve give and take. It's often ephemeral, just a veneer. This article says 40% of Americans meet the definition of lonely.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303936904579177700699367092
Or am I wrong about this and most people have no idea what I'm talking about?
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)marions ghost
(19,841 posts)I can see those crabs clawing and elbowing, fighting to get to the top of every pile. We're all in the crab bucket.
The crabbers get to sit around deciding who's going into the pot of boiling water next.
It makes people crazy.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)smiles and "Have a nice day!"
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)I would never say "Have a Nice Day" to anyone.
It operates as a social shield, meaning, "No more interaction, thanks" if the tone is civil, or if the tone is more negative: "get out of my face."
Doncha love this.....a Sign of the Times:
cilla4progress
(24,759 posts)but perhaps it is a link to the latest survey of "Millennials," for your post exactly echoes their results!
I (although not a Millennial...a boomer, who retained my peace, love, and justice values) used to have a basic underlying trust of everyone, and believed community existed. I wondered why in recent years I have become - almost at base - untrusting and skeptical. I thought it was a reflection on my character, but I think I understand now that this sense of distrust has become pervasive in our culture.
Although I feel sad for Millennials, and despair of what we have left them, I am glad that they see the false institutions for what they are - the emperor truly HAS no clothes, in their view.
*edited for spelling...mine has really gone downhill with age!
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)--that longing for a true sense of community--the ideal of the 60's but also rooted in history--was scoffed at during the Reagan years, when the Rethugs labelled it "socialism" (not good for bizness) and promoted the cynical Ayn Randian path of Holy Capitalism we are all now victims of. And as we now see, that path erodes mutual trust and a sense of community. But alienation and depression in the general public is excellent for all sorts of commercial enterprises, and wars. Keeps people divided and isolated. The ideals of the Boomers were run over, but they were still in the right direction.
OK so They won the battle, but maybe not the war. The Bushcheney nightmare & its aftermath is so bad that it has opened eyes. The Millennials, children of the young adults of the 60's-70's--have come on board and I agree they have their eyes open to a lot of this. They are up against a formidable foe but they realize they are fighting for their future.
We all need to pull together, whatever generation.
cilla4progress
(24,759 posts)They have us where they want us. Even the beneveolent Mr. Obama. With all these horrors going on in the world, they would like us to remain distracted and entertained, if not to divert our attention or participation, to protect us. Like Nero and Rome, only we are Nero.
Do you see a swinging back of the pendulum towards communitarianism? Maybe this eat local / buy local movement is the harbinger. Still a bit tribal, but if everyone can play friendly, probably the most sustainable in the long run.
llmart
(15,545 posts)as I was married to someone like that too. I didn't see it so much in the earlier years, but it became worse as he got older. He grew up in an unloving family with a mother who had no idea how to show love except for buying stuff to make up for her awful parenting. So, yes, money equaled love to him. Very, very sad.
mopinko
(70,175 posts)his father was a jerk, too. worked 3 jobs cooking so he wouldn't have to feed his kids.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)"How will you know I love you if I don't complain?"
He suffered the delusion that if a person yelled bloody murder about every little thing, but still stayed, THAT was how to prove love. First class sicko.
cprise
(8,445 posts)I know people like that... They feel they can only count on negative attention for themselves, so getting response from the conflict is a way of knowing the other person still regards the sicko as important to them. They feel lost and insecure without the other person(s) willingness to fight with them.
Hmmm... emotional neoconservatives~!
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)And he too, like others described in this thread, went from at least seeming liberal to the polar opposite. The only compliment I can remember hearing from him was when he told me once that being with me was almost as good as being alone. After he retired from the military, he soon became a Washington lobbyist for the wrong side. If we hadn't split before then, that would've been it for us. Among other days in the year I celebrate, the day our divorce became final has always loomed large.
Hell, I celebrate that every day!
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Damn!
mopinko
(70,175 posts)which is probably the problem with a lot of wealthy people.
the better you are at lying, the smoother you way to the top.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)"For we shall inquire more curiously than is safe to-day into the true character of this purposiveness with which in varying degrees Nature has endowed almost all of us. For purposiveness means that we are more concerned with the remote future results of our actions than with their own quality or their immediate effects on our own environment. The purposive man is always trying to secure a spurious and delusive immortality for his acts by pushing his interest in them forward into time. He does not love his cat, but his cats kittens; nor, in truth, the kittens, but only the kittens kittens, and so on forward forever to the end of cat-dom. For him jam is not jam unless it is a case of jam to-morrow and never jam to-day."
fasttense
(17,301 posts)By the time she died she had turned it into $100 million. But her only child, a boy, lost his leg because she refused to hire a doctor. They lived uncomfortably until she died, (and he did not hire a doctor for his mom either). She was all about saving for the future and making more money. After her death, the son spent every last sent.
It is an illness that we seem to worship.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)I'm sure I mis-spelled that. I read about her in school, a social studies class at a Catholic school.
Julie
fasttense
(17,301 posts)thanks for reminding me.
Don't worry about spelling since I can't even spell cent correctly.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)cilla4progress
(24,759 posts)And not only the OP, but the entire discussion.
15 minutes well spent!
freshwest
(53,661 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)I agree with that being true.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)In the end, it all seems pretty delusional, a way to "prove" that one is better than everyone else. A mental illness, indeed!
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Highly paid athletes enjoy playing whichever sport they excel at?
Brad Pitt and Sandra Bullock enjoy making movies?
People who have built businesses enjoy running them and keeping them thriving?
I think a lot of times people simply enjoy doing whatever it is that made them wealthy in the first place.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)so many of these billionaires are obsessed with finding ways to KEEP their money: avoiding taxes, for example, by sheltering portions of their wealth here or abroad, etc.
When JK Rowling writes a book, she releases it into the world. It makes money (lots of it); great. Does she then spend all her mental energy on the money, not the thing (the writing) that made her the money? I hope not.
Money is a means, not an end for most people. It's the people for whom money is both the means and the end we're concerned with here. There is nothing creative or even particularly smart being done. It's just money making money. It's about amassing perceived power through the process of racking up ever larger numbersnumbers so large they are meaningless in the end. If you lost a small amount of these numbers to the government so that schools could be funded or roads paved or sick children insured it wouldn't mean you're any less successful. But somehow (some of) these people find it threatening to their personal game.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)yes, it's a disease. And it is killing this country.
I hope more people will wake up.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)so that she could return good for good by supporting the system that had given her a fighting chance to succeed. Imagine! A really rich person who wants to pay high taxes. That takes character. Too bad she's rare as hen's teeth.
grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)When given the smallest of unemployment stipends like Rowling, they can create wealth and jobs.
Taxing the wealthy to pay unemployed workers is not only fair and moral, it is productive and profitable.
Same reason we should pay for all schooling
nyquil_man
(1,443 posts)They're celebrated because they make a lot of money doing it, which was Keynes' point.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)The parasitic 1% can hardly be human anymore, they're so fixated on using $ to win their anatomy-measuring contests.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Why it is, I have no clue. They tell me if I can't understand I don't deserve to know. Like those DC prayer-meeting pols cited in The Family. If you're rich, God thinks you should get richer. If you're not rich, you suck.
As long as there are people willing to sacrifice life and limb for the moneylusters, moneylusters will always exist (along with money existing, too). Without the militaries of the moneylusters, all the talking heads in the world mean nothing.
hueymahl
(2,507 posts)I had no idea Keynes wrote about such. THANK YOU for the link and the post.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)Then I thought, hey, I bet DU'ers would love to read this!
greymattermom
(5,754 posts)For those folks, their number is their identity. It hurts to see it go down. They don't have the ability to spend it, they just like counting it. It's a disease for sure. I know someone who thinks about money all the time. She's wealthy, probably top 5%, not 1%. She can't stop thinking about money. Every conversation contains information about what something costs. We went to a fast food place yesterday, and she wanted to compare the cost of a hamburger and turkey sandwich. In her job, she buys and sells hospitals and works with budgets with billions in them. It's a strange disease.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Why would millionaires at Goldman Sachs so blatantly destroy their own integrity by creating mortgage backed securities that they designed to fail, sell them to their own institutional clients, then take their own "house money" and purchase credit default swaps from AIG betting that those same securities they sold their clients would fail ? I think Keynes was right. Once you reach a certain level of wealth, motivation switches from security to a power psychosis play.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)rickyhall
(4,889 posts)These should not be praised but pitied and, possibly, locked up.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Brainstormy
(2,381 posts)which is available on Netflix makes the point that many primitive societies thought taking more resources of any type than one could use was a sign of mental illness. Makes you wonder just who's primitive.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)Grins
(7,222 posts)Gotta love that line:
"...a somewhat disgusting morbidity, one of those semi-criminal, semi-pathological propensities which one hands over with a shudder to the specialists in mental disease."
Here's looking at you Mr. Ryan.
Dirty Socialist
(3,252 posts)Epiphany4z
(2,234 posts)they just hoard money instead of news paper, cats and dollar store stuff. I think it is even worse because they can afford to have nothing but yes men around them. Nobody is walking in and saying this is wrong you can't live like this. They will never have enough and never be able to let go.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)and exchanges this thread has brought up. All so very true.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)back at the history that led to the depression. The rich of that time were suffering from the same disease of greed.
mountain grammy
(26,641 posts)that these "owners" feel they are entitled to ALL the fruits of labor, because they can somehow dismiss the labor of those who produce the fruits by claiming they "take all the risks" whatever the hell that means. That owners feel no obligation to share the fruits with those who actually do the labor is the true sickness of our hyper capitalist society.
Iwillnevergiveup
(9,298 posts)Apparently never for some folks. Very sad.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)of Never Enough.
She is very unhappy, always on a quest to to fill that void. It involves emotional cravings as well as materialism. But you can see the constant antenna up--"what's in it for moi?" The Miss Piggy syndrome.
This vid belongs in this thread:
Video Published on Mar 10, 2014
Introducing "Moi by Miss Piggy," a new lifestyle brand scheduled to debut Sunday, March 16 on QVC.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)MindMover
(5,016 posts)cilla4progress
(24,759 posts)In this country? An economic revolution? It seems ripe for one...
reformist2
(9,841 posts)Perhaps they use to think of them as "job creators," but now I think it's safe to say most people see them as "money hoarders," and many other posts in this thread can confirm this idea.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)people are terrified of upsetting their owners because then what few crumbs are left will be taken from them. Can't live with themselves knowing how afraid they are to stand up like real human beings, so they prefer to think of their jailers as beloved heroes. To ease their own conscience - they know they're participating in the slaughter themselves.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Initech
(100,095 posts)If a guy is living up to his neck in trash he's a hoarder with a mental illness.
If two men have more wealth than the combined gross national product of entire continents, they're "job creators" who get tax breaks and have the Senate's backing in the destruction of the global economy.
Anyone see anything wrong with this? Bueller?
reformist2
(9,841 posts)This is the one thing that drives these uber-wealthy billionaires crazy - they want to be worshipped, and people aren't doing it anymore.
No, quite the opposite thing is starting to happen - the people are realizing they're no better than anyone else. In many ways, they're worse. Keynes might have even said they have a mental illness. The emperors have no clothes. I think that, deep down, the emperors know this themselves.
illachick
(28 posts)Its actually a very serious question I have. They have more money than they will ever need, but they still need to make more. Is it fear of losing it? Protecting it at all costs because they know what the exact opposite of their wealth looks like? I would like to think that I would not become so greedy if I were to ever amass the riches the 1% has, but I don't know. I feel there has to be some sort of real psychological... thing going on when people make a lot of money.
WhiteTara
(29,719 posts)The love of money as a possession -as distinguished from the love of money as a means to the enjoyments and realities of life -will be recognised for what it is, a somewhat disgusting morbidity, one of those semi-criminal, semi-pathological propensities which one hands over with a shudder to the specialists in mental disease.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)KrazyinKS
(291 posts)That is exactly right. That includes money and wealth. I do estate sales and watch people. They just can't stop themselves in their quest for "stuff" It's got to be a type of mental illness. They fight over it and have to have it. They think everyone else want their "stuff" so they guard it. Holy Cow. I need them, that is how I sell it. But I think hoarding takes different forms, including wealth.
IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)Properly paraphrased and credited, of course. Most of these people wouldn't be able to grasp such elegant compound sentences.
Martin Eden
(12,873 posts)For many of the uber-rich (and the wannabees) the lust for power in all its forms holds a greater allure than simple hoarding of wealth.
TBF
(32,083 posts)I had a MIL who squeezed every penny dry - made shirts for herself out of her husband's old ones. There is nothing wrong with re-use and frugality, but this woman made it an art form.
I also noticed control in other areas too - over her children, husband, very judgmental.
And I know that she survived some things when she was younger - losing her mom at a young age, dropping out of school and working because they were poor.
So, I think when she was older and part of a higher-income family with her spouse she was determined to control not only the money but other things too. One can stand back, empathize, and understand how this personality could develop.
I do think it is more than just greed - there are other emotions at work and it very much smells like mental illness (or a combination of factors).
mckara
(1,708 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)By Mary Wisniewski
CHICAGO (Reuters) - U.S. TV pitchman Kevin Trudeau, who was convicted last year of criminal contempt for exaggerating the contents of his weight-loss book in infomercials, was sentenced on Monday to 10 years in prison.
Trudeau, 51, who has been held in federal custody since his conviction in November, will also have five years of supervised release after serving his sentence, U.S. District Court Judge Ronald Guzman said.
"He is deceitful to the very core, and that type of conduct simply cannot stand," Guzman said, noting that Trudeau had been cited repeatedly for violating court orders over several years.
<snip>
Prosecutors, who said Trudeau's actions resulted in over $37 million in losses to consumers, had sought at least a 10-year sentence, saying in court papers he was motivated by simple greed and had bilked consumers and defied court orders.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)American economic history shows that boom and bust cycles seem to follow an 80 year pattern. As an example, take the Great Depression. The country was accepting of the regulations that Roosevelt placed on the markets and business in general as well as the social safety net. Business had no choice but to succumb to the will of the people.
But, 40 or so years into this rebirth, the citizens most directly affected by the Great Depression had died out and were replaced with a new, more naive generation. As we've seen during Reagan and since, the financial powers have been able to convince the new generation that regulation of markets is bad. They convinced the population to accept tax codes favoring the financial power brokers. Trickle down was not Reagan's brain child. It's happened before. The 2008 financial crisis should have brought this most current 80 year cycle to it's conclusion clearing the way for another rebirth.
The salient question is: Has today's pervasive effects of financial influence over our government coupled with the insidious emergence of citizen apathy make a new rebirth unattainable ? In the shadow of 2008, new regulation has been weak, worker organization weak, higher education funding weak while the weakening of the social safety net is gaining traction. Will we be the first generation not to witness the rebirth of this historical 80 year cycle ?