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eridani

(51,907 posts)
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:01 PM Mar 2014

Even with Platinum coverage, you still get narrow networks

Guess what? Most Americans don't give a shit about choice of insurance plans, but they really, really care about choice of providers and hospitals.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-03-20/obamacare-limits-choices-under-some-plans

I had the exact same problem as Mr. Rosenthal only in Florida with Blue Cross Blue Shield. Got screwed, as I also picked the Platinum plan and found out my hospital and doctors were not covered. The best research I did before hand indicated I would be covered and found after the fact I was not. Got furious with BCBS and they agreed to correct a few cost items with my doctors. They are playing dollar games with our health and I am completely frustrated. I am not upset with Obama-Care, only with the sligh and sneaky Insurance companies. Cannot drop my insurance and/or change until November of this year. What a fiasco. A singly payer system would correct all of this smoke and mirror games played by the Insurance industry.


http://www.aei.org/article/health/in-obamacare-go-for-bronze-health-plans-for-most-people-buying-up-to-gold-or-platinum-plans-is-a-waste-of-money/

Data to support this claim:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/201871033/Comparison-of-Bronze-Versus-Platinum-Obamacare-Plans

The bottom line is this. When you’re choosing a particular insurance offering, you typically can’t trade up to a better benefit by buying the gold or platinum variety of that plan. It’s usually the exact same benefit regardless of the metal you choose.

So what varies between these different metal plans? Typically, just the co-pay structure and deductibles. As you pay higher premiums for a gold or platinum plan, your deductibles and co-pays will decline. The insurer will typically cover 60 percent of expected medical expenses in a bronze plan, 80 percent in a gold plan and 90 percent in a platinum plan. So, by buying the costlier plans, all you’re doing is fronting a higher premium to buy down your anticipated out of pocket costs. You’re not getting a better network of doctors or a better formulary of drugs.



http://www.mckinsey.com/client_service/healthcare_systems_and_services/latest_thinking

Across silver tier networks in our 20 analyzed rating areas, 58 percent of the lowest-price products utilize ultra-narrow networks and another 26 percent utilize narrow networks. Network breadth appears to be positively correlated with premium levels in many cases, but the use of narrower networks is common at all price points.


http://www.remappingdebate.org/article/out-network-coverage-new-york-we-left-it-insurers

New York’s health insurance exchange (called “NY State of Health”) offers individuals and families numerous insurance plan options at various “metal” levels. What it doesn’t offer in most parts of the state are plans that provide coverage for non-emergency out-of-network care. In a sample Manhattan zip code, for example, there are 62 plans available at all metal levels. Not one of those plans pays for out-of-network care.

Why then did New York State not require out-of-network coverage? “We left it up to the insurers,” said (Department of Health’s Randi) Imbriaco, and the insurers, she continued, arguing that “a closed network helps keeps costs low,” chose not to provide out-of-network coverage in most of New York State, including New York City (some plans in the western part of New York State do offer such coverage).


Comment by Don McCanne of PNHP: According to the Bloomberg Businessweek report, Ben Rosenthal and reader John Alexander purchased the highest tier plans available - platinum plans - to ensure that they would have coverage for their current physicians and hospitals. No way. Insurers have pushed the perversity of narrow network plans all the way to the top.

Before Barack Obama was even nominated, the Democratic strategists had already decided that “Choice” would be a campaign slogan to market health care reform. Some of us protested that Celinda Lake and Herndon Alliance were pushing “choice of private health plans” when what the Democrats should have been advocating was “choice of physicians and hospitals.” It is clear which faction won this debate, as single payer supporters had the door slammed on them.

But look at the consequences. We were promised that we would have our choice of any plan we wanted with benefits as rich as desired, and with a selection of any health care providers we preferred. We could choose our doctors and our hospitals. But what happened?

So they did set up four levels of plans that we could choose from, plus a fifth catastrophic plan as an option for younger individuals. So we could buy a cheap bronze plan that would cover an average of 60 percent of our health care costs, 70 percent for silver, 80 percent for gold, all the way up to an expensive platinum plan that would cover 90 percent of costs. But there would be only negligible differences in the benefits since all plans had to cover the same ten categories of benefits, though some variation within each category is allowed as long as it had the same actuarial value.

But the shocker is the networks that the insurers established. As the AEI report indicates, for plans offered by the same insurer in the same market, the provider networks were just as limited for the high end platinum plans as they were for the cheapest bronze plans. If you want your medical bills paid, you do not have a choice of physicians and hospitals. You have to stay in network. Typically seventy percent of the providers are outside of the narrow network plans offered through the exchanges.

The Remapping Debate report reveals a further complication. Previously plans were available that provided reduced payments for care obtained out of network, with the patient paying a greater share of the costs. Now in areas such as New York City, none of these plans are available through the exchanges. You must stay in network or pay the full bill.

According to the McKinsey report, in some markets plans are available with broader networks, but these are less prevalent and declining in availability, and they are exorbitantly expensive. They will likely be subject to the death spiral since most markets do not have enough super wealthy individuals to maintain a vibrant market of broad network plans. The super wealthy then will simply pay their own bills.

So the Democrats traded off our choice of physicians and hospitals for a choice of deductibles and copayments, as the insurers took away the choices that we actually wanted. The narrow and ultra-narrow networks were a decision of the insurers, not us. We are getting what they want rather than what we want, simply because the Affordable care Act was designed to leave the insurers in charge.

As we’ve said before, all of this would go away if only we would enact a single payer national health program. As PNHP president Andy Coates says, physicians are placed in an “ethical bind” as they practice under “a corporate medical model that threatens to squeeze the humanity out of our interaction with our patients.”

83 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Even with Platinum coverage, you still get narrow networks (Original Post) eridani Mar 2014 OP
there is only ONE provider who accepts Covered California plans in my area.... mike_c Mar 2014 #1
"There is no place for private for-profit insurance in health care. They add zero value, and are... CurtEastPoint Mar 2014 #2
I got slammed when i pointed that out awhile back. dixiegrrrrl Mar 2014 #3
Yikes. What happens if you move to another county? suffragette Mar 2014 #27
I have no idea. dixiegrrrrl Mar 2014 #33
Well, I think you raised an excellent point and one that could be a hard suffragette Mar 2014 #35
Or spend a lot of time on the road from one state to another? Lars39 Mar 2014 #34
Great point suffragette Mar 2014 #36
This is my issue. I am always travelling, it's my job... Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #44
bull. emergency care is covered wherever you are in the US. elehhhhna Mar 2014 #46
At higher rates perhaps. Lars39 Mar 2014 #49
Yep, in my area very few doctors accept any exchange plans at all. Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #4
The fact is..... cynzke Mar 2014 #22
Beginnings of a two tier system Kilgore Mar 2014 #25
It leads to an interesting question: should you force doctors to accept a plan? theboss Mar 2014 #26
3-tier: those in red states w no expansion Lars39 Mar 2014 #37
that's what you have in single payer countries treestar Mar 2014 #40
My hubs employer is a Fortune 100 company and we have narrow networks too elehhhhna Mar 2014 #47
That's what we had before too, and a lot of those folks couldn't get insurance if they Hoyt Mar 2014 #58
This message was self-deleted by its author questionseverything Mar 2014 #72
if you want more, go outside the exchanges. crimeariver1225 Mar 2014 #5
Then fight with exchanges Aerows Mar 2014 #7
Regardless of "how it works" forthemiddle Mar 2014 #42
as of today, you can keep your insurance that you previously had. Promise kept. crimeariver1225 Mar 2014 #83
Should we repeal the ACA? JoePhilly Mar 2014 #6
The ACA needs serious adjustments Aerows Mar 2014 #8
So that's a "no", correct? JoePhilly Mar 2014 #9
JoePhilly, do me a favor Aerows Mar 2014 #12
I asked a simple question, why not answer it? JoePhilly Mar 2014 #13
it should not be repealed, but it does need some fixes noiretextatique Mar 2014 #14
Thank you, I agree, Aerows Mar 2014 #19
Well I will give you the answer you want...NO. zeemike Mar 2014 #16
Agreed. Aerows Mar 2014 #21
And the only argument against it that can be made is zeemike Mar 2014 #23
Sure, I'd support that. JoePhilly Mar 2014 #24
No it is not step one...it is not even step 0 zeemike Mar 2014 #30
You see it as complaining while others see it Lars39 Mar 2014 #38
I see lots of "pointing out what needs fixing", very little HOW to do it. JoePhilly Mar 2014 #41
It's a hard problem to solve, but we'll get there. Lars39 Mar 2014 #52
ACA made my choices dramatically worse, policy-wise... Thank goodness for the 2-year extension! ReverendDeuce Mar 2014 #43
So what made your pre-ACA plan, non-ACA compliant? eom 1StrongBlackMan Mar 2014 #56
Lack of maternity care for one... ReverendDeuce Mar 2014 #82
Good luck against big pharma ramapo Mar 2014 #18
I know. Aerows Mar 2014 #20
no just amend it for now Rosa Luxemburg Mar 2014 #31
Unless you think handing big insurance a hundred billion a year weakens them... Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #45
We are going to be stuck with these vultures between us and Health CARE for a LONG time. bvar22 Mar 2014 #10
They are the obstacle between us and health care..... cynzke Mar 2014 #32
Without a deductible, your premium would be hundreds of dollars more every month. Hoyt Mar 2014 #60
i wonder when we will see the numbers questionseverything Mar 2014 #73
I am too. bvar22 Mar 2014 #75
about the 80% thing questionseverything Mar 2014 #76
Duh. Igel Mar 2014 #11
Limited choice of doctors is a part auntsue Mar 2014 #15
Hell, it's a part of TRICARE, too! And if you go "out of network" you're paying for the privilege. MADem Mar 2014 #77
NJ networks are more limited than pre-ACA ramapo Mar 2014 #17
I have had a BCBS PPO plan years before Obamacare through my doc03 Mar 2014 #28
This is my experience as well BrotherIvan Mar 2014 #29
+1 area51 Mar 2014 #53
That stood out for me as well. SammyWinstonJack Mar 2014 #69
i am questioning this statement questionseverything Mar 2014 #74
One thing that people need to remember about ACA eridani Mar 2014 #39
I'm on Medicare, but when my wife signed up on Minnesota's MineralMan Mar 2014 #48
While I'm not against single payer, I think there is a seriously false premise here OmahaBlueDog Mar 2014 #50
I agree with a lot of that. Personally, I'm fine with letting insurance companies take on risk and Hoyt Mar 2014 #55
Jesus Christ, the AEI again? that's two AEI and one OP citing The Blaze. PeaceNikki Mar 2014 #51
I'm behind on my sources background, Lars39 Mar 2014 #54
OK... PeaceNikki Mar 2014 #57
Thank you! Lars39 Mar 2014 #59
The OP also cites another RW organization PeaceNikki Mar 2014 #61
Hard to keep up sometimes! Lars39 Mar 2014 #63
Not really. It's all a simple Google search away. PeaceNikki Mar 2014 #64
Thanks for the reminder to check sources. Lars39 Mar 2014 #65
The premise of the spin is absurd. ProSense Mar 2014 #68
This crap is being spread all over the Internet. ProSense Mar 2014 #66
If the AEI were the only source for the OP, you'd have a legitimate gripe eridani Mar 2014 #78
You want more links? Here-- eridani Mar 2014 #80
I posted an analysis that supports what you're saying about a month ago: TexasTowelie Mar 2014 #62
I have also gotten the advice to go with the highest deductible plan BrotherIvan Mar 2014 #67
It's actually the mix of the deductibles and the percentage reimbursement levels. TexasTowelie Mar 2014 #70
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense BrotherIvan Mar 2014 #71
The bronze plan is obviously the best--unless you get expensively sick eridani Mar 2014 #79
Thanks BrotherIvan Mar 2014 #81

mike_c

(36,281 posts)
1. there is only ONE provider who accepts Covered California plans in my area....
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:05 PM
Mar 2014

That's ONE physician's office. The issue is cost and reimbursement-- the major insurers on the exchange told all the local providers to take 30%-50% of payments they make for other plans or walk away. All but one walked away, saying the insurance companies already bled them white. That only leaves the county Open Door Clinic. They're currently the only provider who accepts ANY plans purchased from the exchange, regardless of level.

There is no place for private for-profit insurance in health care. They add zero value, and are profit parasites.

CurtEastPoint

(18,638 posts)
2. "There is no place for private for-profit insurance in health care. They add zero value, and are...
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:14 PM
Mar 2014

profit parasites." Say it out loud, over and over, again and again. This is the gospel truth. Fuck'em.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
3. I got slammed when i pointed that out awhile back.
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:38 PM
Mar 2014

Not only are there very limited providers, there are very limited insurance companies, usually just 1, for each county.
here in Ala. BC/BS are the ONLY option for most of the counties in this state.
A couple of other insurance companies have divided the pie only in the large cities in this state.
There are FOUR such cities.
So, NO choice of dr, NO choice of insurer.AND limited network of only a county, when networks used to be at least state wide.

which is what one would expect knowing that the insurance companies wrote the bill.

"you can keep your doctor", eh, Pres Obama???

Hopefully this might create a singe payer movement.

suffragette

(12,232 posts)
35. Well, I think you raised an excellent point and one that could be a hard
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 01:08 AM
Mar 2014

issue for some people.

And it's clear that's another major difference with single payer, which should be what all have.

Lars39

(26,109 posts)
34. Or spend a lot of time on the road from one state to another?
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 12:09 AM
Mar 2014

One car accident in the wrong state and you're screwed financially.

suffragette

(12,232 posts)
36. Great point
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 01:14 AM
Mar 2014

These being specific to states create major gaps.
The Medicaid differences are another serious gap. Even for people who have a state that made Medicaid available, that coverage is only through that state as far as I can tell. Unless states start making mutual agreements, someone who's out of state temporarily, even for a major part of the year, like a college student, wouldn't be covered or have access until they went home.
And illness or accident doesn't stop at state lines.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
44. This is my issue. I am always travelling, it's my job...
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 08:36 AM
Mar 2014

Under Obamacare I am forced, by law, to purchase a very expensive policy (widest coverage area PPO) that will almost certainly do nothing for me unless I happen to be in state at one of their select locations. Not that I can afford that policy anyway, even with the subsidy.

Some people came out of Obamacare with a great deal, others only think they got a great deal, but people like me just got screwed. And yeah, 'used car salesman' comes to mind for me as well.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
4. Yep, in my area very few doctors accept any exchange plans at all.
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:48 PM
Mar 2014

You can still buy an off-exchange plan (with a much better network) without regard to pre-existing conditions (thanks to the ACA), but you will not get a premium subsidy.

cynzke

(1,254 posts)
22. The fact is.....
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 09:41 PM
Mar 2014

that the public exchanges were never meant for everyone and you are not required to enroll in a public exchange unless you qualify for and need a subsidy. And for those of you whose income is too high for a ACA public exchange, then you should definitely check out the private market place.

Kilgore

(1,733 posts)
25. Beginnings of a two tier system
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 10:57 PM
Mar 2014

Tier 1 for those with the money to buy outside the exchange and can enjoy a wide selection of providers and services.

Tier 2 for those who can't.

Ok, I get it now.

Kilgore.

 

theboss

(10,491 posts)
26. It leads to an interesting question: should you force doctors to accept a plan?
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 11:03 PM
Mar 2014

I don't know the answer to that.

Part of me thinks there should be a larger pool of Medicaid patients who see doctors paid by the government. Sort of an NHS-lite.

I'm also fairly certain the care received in that kind of setting would be awful.

Lars39

(26,109 posts)
37. 3-tier: those in red states w no expansion
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 01:20 AM
Mar 2014

who are exempted from buying any ins because of not being able pay a medical bill, for example.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
40. that's what you have in single payer countries
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 04:39 AM
Mar 2014

those with money can afford private insurance on top of the basic coverage the system provides.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
58. That's what we had before too, and a lot of those folks couldn't get insurance if they
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 12:15 PM
Mar 2014

had money or a subsidy. The ACA actually improves that aspect.

Response to Kilgore (Reply #25)

 

crimeariver1225

(19 posts)
5. if you want more, go outside the exchanges.
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:50 PM
Mar 2014

it you need lower premiums and deductibles, you're going to deal with fewer providers in networks under exchange. that's how it works.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
7. Then fight with exchanges
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:53 PM
Mar 2014

over what they will and will not carry. Joyous. Just what a sick person needs to do.

forthemiddle

(1,379 posts)
42. Regardless of "how it works"
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 07:21 AM
Mar 2014

The words people remember (because the Republicans will repeat them over and over again) are "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor". "If you like your insurance, you can keep your insurance."
So you can keep repeating the realities over, and over, but the reality is people will still remember those words that President Obama said.

 

crimeariver1225

(19 posts)
83. as of today, you can keep your insurance that you previously had. Promise kept.
Mon Mar 24, 2014, 02:07 PM
Mar 2014

You can keep your doctor if you don't mind paying out of network should your doctor be one of those not participating in the exchanges. The government doesn't dictate you do anything except have some kind of insurance coverage.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
8. The ACA needs serious adjustments
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:54 PM
Mar 2014

and we need to pass laws limiting the amount pharmaceutical companies can charge for drugs and medical products. Until we do that, it is going to end up being a race to see who can charge more for what and get away with it.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
9. So that's a "no", correct?
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:56 PM
Mar 2014

The ACA doesn't fix every problem, and no one has suggested it does.

So clearly there is much more work to do. And we should build on the ACA to do it.



 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
12. JoePhilly, do me a favor
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 07:01 PM
Mar 2014

For about 5 minutes read what people are saying, rather than reflexively defending a law that has issues. No one is attempting to slight the accomplishments of President Obama when they gripe about problems with the ACA.

They are GRIPING about the ACA. Nothing more, nothing less. I swear people get more sensitive around here every day.

noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
14. it should not be repealed, but it does need some fixes
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 07:31 PM
Mar 2014

not the black or white answer you desire...just the truth.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
19. Thank you, I agree,
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 09:21 PM
Mar 2014

and that is what I said, essentially. When rendering a policy discussion strictly to yes or no, you forgo the fact that there is usually a hell of a lot of gray territory in politics.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
16. Well I will give you the answer you want...NO.
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 09:17 PM
Mar 2014

But instead we should insist that they just lower the eligibility age for Medicare to 25...and allow anyone that wants to to buy into it.
In other words give the capitalist system what they say they want...compition....and watch them change or wither on the vine.

And it is just that simple.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
21. Agreed.
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 09:23 PM
Mar 2014

Change or wither on the vine - offer competition, if private health care insurance is so dandy.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
23. And the only argument against it that can be made is
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 10:08 PM
Mar 2014

We can't get that because they won't let us...which is the same as admitting this country is not a democracy at all.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
24. Sure, I'd support that.
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 10:56 PM
Mar 2014

I ask that question because in most of these threads, there is plenty of complaining, very little in terms of actual recommendations for how to move forward.

Take the OP ... read the last sentence in it. Apparently, all we need to do is create a single payer system.

Wow ...really? That's all we have to do ... I can't believe no one has thought of that until now.

People like to talk about the end state as if stating it is the same as figuring out how to actually make it happen.

You suggest we "insist" that they lower the eligibility age of Medicare. Ok, how exactly do we do that?

What steps do we take to get there ... or, do we just jump there by magic? And, when people post such end states without any indication of how you get there, I have to ask if repealing the ACA is "step 1"

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
30. No it is not step one...it is not even step 0
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 11:24 PM
Mar 2014

But how we do it is where my pessimism sets in.
Because they, through the media and social pressure, have kept us divided and distracted by any number of things that will not solve anything.
And in order to insist on it we must be united, and not just progressives but the average Joe too, who despite what you think would like to have it too.

And everything is being framed as being for or against the ACA...you either hate it or you love it and must praise it...and the division can be seen right here on DU.
And the answer is to be neither for it or against it but for something that will fix it once and for all and give us all health care that we need.

But I don't see that happening because we don't make our politicians do it, we just accept what they give us and pretend it is all we can do.

Lars39

(26,109 posts)
38. You see it as complaining while others see it
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 02:08 AM
Mar 2014

as pointing out what needs fixing. Problems have to be identified before a solution can be found. Kinda like listening a while to the weird sound your car is making, thinking about it, talking it over with friends and neighbors, before getting up the nerve to crawl under the car. A lot's riding on your ability to fix it in a timely manner. And you sure as hell want to make sure the car is jacked up correctly so you don't get crushed.
Some people are still discovering how it all works, some are already in brainstorming mode, trying to figure out how to go about getting from where we are to where we need to be.
The most important thing iright now is that these conversations occur. Progress will not happen unless people can discuss things openly.
I don't know if they're still here or not(and hopefully not),but those people who want to dismantle ACA are a minuscule minority.

No one in their right mind would want to unleash the wave of deaths and misery that would result with such an action.
Seriously horrifying to even contemplate abruptly removing what system we do have now.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
41. I see lots of "pointing out what needs fixing", very little HOW to do it.
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 07:06 AM
Mar 2014

As for no one here wanting to repeal the ACA. I'm not so sure.

I've been asking that question in lots of threads. I think this is the first thread in which anyone has actually answered that question.

Lars39

(26,109 posts)
52. It's a hard problem to solve, but we'll get there.
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 12:03 PM
Mar 2014

Someone suggested doing away with deductibles, that we pay our premiums, "why do we have to pay deductibles?".
Indeed! Or at least get the deductibles down much lower so that people can use their coverage, instead of their insurance sitting on a shelf looking all shiny and new.
I don't know the answer to that one, but exploring the ramifications of that proposal will help get us to our goals.
There are suggestions popping up, and I think there will be more as people explore situations and tinker out loud.

One thing I've learned from my years here is that collectively, DU at it's best acts as a think tank of sorts. Or at least when conversation isn't stifled or sidetracked with busywork threads.
DU's think tank' ability is one reason why we get a lot of right wing visitors. But even at DUs worst, information and ideas result, even with threads that appear like someone is yanking our chain.
I used to absolutely hate the anti-choice threads where DUers would have to school the polite troll, until i started realizing how much valuable info they generate. Just one "let's solve this problem thread" doesn't seem to generate as many good ideas, it's the accumulation of threads, trainwreck ones and all that further the education of us all.
Short version: each one teach one.

ReverendDeuce

(1,643 posts)
43. ACA made my choices dramatically worse, policy-wise... Thank goodness for the 2-year extension!
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 08:09 AM
Mar 2014

I posted about this last year and was immediately and thunderously accused of everything from being a GOP plant (despite my DU membership of ten years) to photoshopping the documents from my insurance company. The best attacks were the ones where they claim I did not know how to read my policy, because they just could not accept that ACA made my policy choices worse.

I enjoy a $1,500 deductible and $0 co-pay, max out of pocket is $3,000.

The ACA-approved plan was like a $3,500 deductible, 40% co-pay, and $6750 max out-of-pocket. And the plan cost $80 more per month.

At least I get a two-year reprieve... Thanks, Obama?

ReverendDeuce

(1,643 posts)
82. Lack of maternity care for one...
Sun Mar 23, 2014, 01:45 PM
Mar 2014

There was also a lifetime limit of $5m on the policy, which I realize could get eaten up in a catastrophic, rare illnesses.

I had other people in the thread continue to attack me and call my policy "junk," claim the policy document was photoshopped, that the policy was not real, etc. etc.

I endured vicious personal attacks over merely pointing out how in my case, the ACA made my premiums rise.

ramapo

(4,588 posts)
18. Good luck against big pharma
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 09:19 PM
Mar 2014

My two 'liberal dem' NJ Senators did their jobs to protect the pharma industry during the ACA votes. Money talks.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
20. I know.
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 09:22 PM
Mar 2014

It's rather like gnats taking on tigers, but we still need to take on those juggernauts. Otherwise, we can expect to see health care costs spiral so far out of control that no one will be able to afford medical services in this country.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
10. We are going to be stuck with these vultures between us and Health CARE for a LONG time.
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:57 PM
Mar 2014

The Health Insurance Industry:

*Manufactures NOTHING

*Provides NO useful service

*Creates NO Value Added Wealth


...and NOW they will be receiving subsidies from the US Treasury that will make the $4Billion going to the Oil Corps look like Chump Change.

Yes.
More people WILL have Insurance under ObamaCare,
but there is plenty to be pissed off about.
I advocate SCREAMING VERY LOUD,
or the problems will NOT ever be fixed.

As a country, we NEED to rid ourselves of these worthless parasites that are profiting off of their position as the Gate Keepers to OUR Health Care.
This should be an issue in every election, and every vote cast.


cynzke

(1,254 posts)
32. They are the obstacle between us and health care.....
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 11:50 PM
Mar 2014

AND WE PAY THEM FOR THAT! Nothing more than glorified bookkeepers. All they do is pay our bills from the pool of paid premiums we give them. Not satisfied with the premiums we pay, they load the policies up front with high deductibles. Deductibles were suppose to discourage people from running to the doctor for every little ache and pain. Now the insurance companies uses high deductibles as a buffer from having to pay out medical claims. We pay them a premium, why do we need to pay a deductible as well.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
60. Without a deductible, your premium would be hundreds of dollars more every month.
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 12:20 PM
Mar 2014

One thing the ACA does is limit that administrative fees and profits the insurers can rake off the top.

And the ACA provides some assistance to folks who have difficulty affording deductibles, not to mention states smart/liberal enough to expand Medicaid.

Now, if you like, we could have a system like Medicare with no out-of-pocket cap unless you buy expensive supplemental insurance.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
75. I am too.
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 02:59 PM
Mar 2014

The numbers I have seen are about $100BILLION per Year.
I haven't seen a break down of how MUCH of this is Medicaid, and how much goes to the Health Insurance Indusrty.

Here is Arkansas, we have a Privatized Medicaid expansion that lets those who qualify choose from a For Profit provider, so the Medicaid money coming to Arkansas will go to the For Profits too.

The law says that 80% of that money must go to providing Health Care. but Wendell Potter told us that the Insurance Companies writing the law were already "gaming" this part.

questionseverything

(9,646 posts)
76. about the 80% thing
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 04:36 PM
Mar 2014

I see the sudden rise in the cost of prescription drugs as a"gaming " of the 80% rule......I think the same 1%ers that own stock in the ins companies also probably own the bulk of the stock in the drug companies

so increase actual costs of the drugs makes the 80% number higher and while the ins does pay more for that part they also have to refund less while they are moving money from one pocket to the other

only antidotal evidence but recently my grown daughter came to me very upset, a script that she has used sporadically for years went from 150/ tiny tube to over 400/tiny tube....the generic is no longer available here in US

one of the needs my spouse has is chiropractic adjustments,,,,,we found out recently that no ins in Illinois covers it now

Igel

(35,296 posts)
11. Duh.
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:59 PM
Mar 2014

These are plans that are competing to be low cost, not high quality. That's the way the system's set up. The metal-system used (Pt, Au, Zn, brass, bronze, Sn, whatever) speaks to add-ons and deductibles.

I have a more expensive plan than most in the range offered here. I get to see specialists without a referral and the network is large. In the range of plans offered, mine's probably "bronze". Maybe Al or Ag or whatever "intermediate" (aka "mediocre&quot would be.

Obamacare had two big points. (1) Increased coverage. (2) Bending the "arc" of prices down.

Subsidies and increased taxes will accomplish (1). For (2), people seem to forget that often you get what you pay for. Also that something is better than nothing.

auntsue

(277 posts)
15. Limited choice of doctors is a part
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 07:50 PM
Mar 2014

of every HMO. I HATE the idea of for-profit insurance and healthcare. I can't afford a PPO..I am on social security I have a medicare advantage plan. I just luck that my doctor is in the group. The original poster should see if their doctor will join the plan.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
77. Hell, it's a part of TRICARE, too! And if you go "out of network" you're paying for the privilege.
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 04:54 PM
Mar 2014

ramapo

(4,588 posts)
17. NJ networks are more limited than pre-ACA
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 09:17 PM
Mar 2014

Here in NJ, insurance companies were required to write individual policies pre-ACA without regard to medical history. The options weren't great, all were expensive but Oxford offered a pretty decent PPO. NJ regulations required any company writing group policies to also offer something on the individual market. Some companies gamed the system, offering individual coverage at $10,000/month (I kid you not) but there was some choices.

Now the networks are more limited and companies have come up with a new beast, the EPO. Go to a crappy hospital and pay less. Want to go to a better facility, pay more. And like an HMO, no going out of network. There is but one PPO to choose from in NJ. Aetna, Oxford, and its parent United all decided to not offer any plans. So much for competition.

Go to Manhattan and find that you can only get an HMO. At least all the good facilities in NY are covered but not having an out-of-network option is very troubling.

Of course the notion that not being able to go to any doctor or facility is a function of the ACA is absurd. The insurance companies have been dictating where you could get care for a long time. But with competition in a market, you have a chance of finding a policy that offers a network that you can live with.

The biggest problem with the ACA is that the insurance companies are still very much in charge. Consumers have any option they want, as long as the friendly insurance company wants to provide it.

This is why we needed a public option or at least regulations that did not let companies cherry pick markets and required a PPO to be part of each company's offering.

A less dysfunctional Congress might address these issues but these problems will be used as gas on the fire by Republicans (who of course never gave two craps about companies not offering adequate coverage). The Democrats as usual don't have the guts (or votes) to take on the insurance lobby.

So the ACA is a small step forward. Everybody (sort of everybody) can get insurance, you just don't get to necessarily pick a policy that you like. I guess we call that progress.

doc03

(35,324 posts)
28. I have had a BCBS PPO plan years before Obamacare through my
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 11:18 PM
Mar 2014

employer and now from my union and have always had to find an in-network doctor or pay
double the co-pays and deductibles.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
29. This is my experience as well
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 11:24 PM
Mar 2014

But we're not allowed to talk about it. I have read all the stories of "I'm saving $500 a month on my insurance!" But in fact, your premium goes down because if you actually want to use your ACA plan beyond a few doctor checkups, you have to pay the massive deductible. So in effect my $250 per month Silver plan + $5000 deductible = $8000 a year / $666 per month. With my old plan I was able to see specialists with no referral, and BCBS in California never had a problem finding a doctor. Now I am unable to find a GP yet as none of those in the network are taking new patients.

I buy insurance independently. Before 2008, my PPO insurance with $0 deductible was $180 per month. But since then my plan has gone up every quarter until last month it went up to $476, so I switched to an ACA plan. Now they tell me my plan covers $0 for doctors visits out of network, but also does not cover hospitals out of state. Which means not only is my insurance too expensive to use, it is worthless junk. And, the topper is that I have been calling and dealing with the insurance co for the last month and their message they play while on hold advertises that the ACA plan premiums will be going UP soon; so now they have me in their clutches and can charge whatever they want.

I will not stand up and cheer for health insurance companies. Just because people are getting insured, does not mean they have access to care. They cannot afford to use the insurance they are paying for. As in Will's instance, we are still at the mercy of predatory companies for our health care. Thankfully, I do not use my insurance at all and regard it merely as catastrophic coverage. But the same thing is happening to family and friends. One family whose employer switched to an ACA plan, the mother was scheduled for an operation but now has to wait while they save up $10k for the deductible, which they may not be able to do. That is happening all over to people who are insured.

HEALTH INSURANCE IS NOT HEALTH CARE.

area51

(11,905 posts)
53. +1
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 12:05 PM
Mar 2014

Worth repeating:

"Just because people are getting insured, does not mean they have access to care."

questionseverything

(9,646 posts)
74. i am questioning this statement
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 02:24 PM
Mar 2014

One family whose employer switched to an ACA plan, the mother was scheduled for an operation but now has to wait while they save up $10k for the deductible, //////////////////////////////

from all the research I have done it seems out of pockets are set at 6300/per person (which is bad enough)

my past experience with private healthcare ins is providers would accept the ins payment and let consumers establish a payment plan for the deductible.....are you saying that is not true anymore?

eridani

(51,907 posts)
39. One thing that people need to remember about ACA
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 04:35 AM
Mar 2014

It allows states to enact single payer. If your state has an active movement, please join it.

MineralMan

(146,284 posts)
48. I'm on Medicare, but when my wife signed up on Minnesota's
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 10:05 AM
Mar 2014

MNCare site, she had her choice of a number of coverages from the insurance companies on the exchange. Most, as you state, have limited networks in some way or another, but BC/BS had plans that were network specific at great premiums. My wife chose a Gold plan that was specifically tied to the network which the multi-specialty clinic she has gone to for years was the network. That healthcare company also owns one of the best hospitals in the area, and has clinics throughout our metro area.

She came to choose this plan after comparing it with other plans, and carefully calculated how its deductible and annual out of pocket maximum worked out financially, compared to the plan she already had. She also checked medication co-pays for all of the medications she takes or has taken. She will go to the same doctors she has always gone to, and has access to every specialty within the healthcare system supported by her plan. It also has very liberal travel policies.

The cost? Less than half of the $1000/mo. premium she had been paying for her individual policy before.

A win-win situation all around.

The point is that careful research is needed before selecting a specific ACA plan. You really have to run the numbers, check the network provider list, and do comparisons. Health insurance is expensive, but a lot of people spend less time on it than choosing their next new car. I do not understand that.

It's complicated, but making careful comparisons before deciding is the only way to go.

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
50. While I'm not against single payer, I think there is a seriously false premise here
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 11:25 AM
Mar 2014
...physicians are placed in an “ethical bind” as they practice under “a corporate medical model that threatens to squeeze the humanity out of our interaction with our patients.”


I don't see physicians as victims of a soul-crushing corporate system. I see them as equal players in a game that has four players: the physicians, Pharma, the for-profit health insurance market, and hospital networks. As with all games, the players are sometimes partners and sometimes opponents, but they all have one goal -- skim as much money from the system as possible.

Yes, all of these players, at some level, are there to help people and improve health outcomes -- in the same way that American Eagle wants to sell you trendy clothes or that Chipotle wants to sell you addictive, overly large burritos. However, the principal goal of all of these enterprises is to make money.

The narrow and ultra-narrow networks were a decision of the insurers, not us.


Look closer. The decision is partly driven by insurers, to be sure. However, the system is equally driven by hospitals and physician networks. Nowhere is that more evident than Nebraska: Alegent (a network of Catholic hospitals) and Creighton (the hospital associated with the Jesuit university of the same name) merged to form Alegent-Creighton Health. They have their own physician network, their own clinic, and their own pharmacies to which they try to steer you. This caused the Nebraska Medical Center (the University hospital in Omaha), Bryan-LGH (the hospitals in Lincoln), and Methodist to form their own counter alliance. So, now, money that could have been spend on improving patient outcomes is being spent on advertising campaigns. Hospitals invest millions in upgraded birthing suites to impress would-be parents into having their offspring in one network's hospital or the other, and then getting them hooked on taking their precious bundle to that network's pediatricians.

Insurers like physician network deals because they get a rate guarantee across specialties, and they get to offer customers something that doesn't have the annoying features of an HMO ("look Ma, no referrals&quot , but (in practice) offers them all of the benefits of an HMO.

I'd add one more thing. If you think single-payer in America would be see-any-doctor-you-want, get-any-procedure-you-need, and get-any-drug-you-want, I personally doubt it. Not even Medicare works that well. First, if government single payer comes, the likelihood is that it will look like the world's largest HMO. Being that this is America, a lot of doctors will simply opt out if they see this as a pay cut. They'll go private-pay only, or they'll leave and go care for ex-pats in Belize and Nicaragua. Many Hospitals will offer the cheapest, least amount of service they can get away with (to be fair, some do that now).

I'm not knocking you or your desire to see an equitable system (and I think it's a great post); I simply think greed is vastly underestimated as a factor in your last paragraph.

For better or worse, I think we'll end up with something like half-assed single payer Eventually, Republicans will "fix what is wrong with Obamacare". That will principally mean letting insurers sell across state lines and a bunch of tort protection. As with wireless companies, this will reduce the number of insurance players and increase the sizes of the companies. As with wireless companies, eventually we'll all choose from one of 4-6 networks based on cost and coverage. By coverage, I don't just mean conditions that are covered - I mean coverage area -- places where they do (and do not) have doctors. As with wireless companies, that won't mean much to urban dwellers, but will mean a lot to the rural and exurban.
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
55. I agree with a lot of that. Personally, I'm fine with letting insurance companies take on risk and
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 12:09 PM
Mar 2014

other costs as we transition to a system like that, with a public option.

The main reason I'm fine with it is that the current Congress -- or anything imaginable in the next decade or so -- would never appropriate the money needed to build a well funded health system. Not to mention that a single payer system would be at the whims of Congress in future years. If I thought Congress would fund such a system adequately, I'd feel differently. Heck, look at what Congress is doing to Medicare Advantage plans that 30% of Medicare beneficiaries voluntarily have chosen because it meets their needs better than traditional Medicare with a Medigap policy.

There is a lot of greed in the system. Single payer could control a lot of that, but Congress will not legislate that any time soon. We might as well be griping because the ACA doesn't pay for a vaccine that protects us from all aliments and injuries.

Finally, I don't think the difference in premiums for a public option would stop the griping. "In the Congressional Budget Office’s estimation, premiums for the public plan would be between 7 percent and 8 percent lower, on average, during the 2016–2023 period than premiums for private plans offered in the exchanges—mainly because the public plan’s payment rates for providers would generally be lower than those of private plans." http://www.cbo.gov/budget-options/2013/44890

If that is true, I don't think folks will cheer because their premiums go from $400/month to $368. Until the greed in the system (including that of us as patients) is contained, this is going to be a rough transition. However, the ACA is a huge step forward in a long transition.

PeaceNikki

(27,985 posts)
51. Jesus Christ, the AEI again? that's two AEI and one OP citing The Blaze.
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 11:29 AM
Mar 2014

That I've seen here. In the past 24 hours. WTF, DU? WTF?

PeaceNikki

(27,985 posts)
57. OK...
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 12:14 PM
Mar 2014

American Enterprise Institute
The American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research (AEI) is one of the oldest and most influential of the pro-business right-wing think tanks. It promotes the advancement of free enterprise capitalism, and has been extremely successful in placing its people in influential governmental positions, particularly in the Bush Administration. AEI has been described as one of the country's main bastions of neoconservatism.

- See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/american-enterprise-institute#sthash.xe1lrI1v.dpuf

And...

TheBlaze (formerly titled GBTV) is a libertarian conservative/independent news, information, and entertainment television network founded by talk radio personality, and entrepreneur Glenn Beck. TheBlaze has two studios based in Las Colinas, Texas and in New York City, New York.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TheBlaze

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
68. The premise of the spin is absurd.
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 01:09 PM
Mar 2014

They have people buying into the notion that they have to reduce access to reduce cost, which is bullshit.

Conversely, they're attempting to drive people to more expensive off-exchange plans with this deception. People should shop the exchanges deligently and choose the insurer that offers the most inclusive network. Screw the big insurerers and their manipulation.

The good thing is that the the number of insurers participating will grow, especially as the new co-opts and the multi-state plans go online.



ProSense

(116,464 posts)
66. This crap is being spread all over the Internet.
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 01:02 PM
Mar 2014

It's the insurance companies' new BS: portray the exchange plans as inferior. Most recently, it was nonsense about access to cancer centers.

Under Obamacare, some top cancer centers off-limits
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024692628

If you read the article, the centers are not "off limits." In fact, Obamacare expanded access to cancer treatment. What is happening is insurance companies are engaged in manipulation to create the impression that the exchanges are "different." Not only is the concept of network not new to Obamacare, but the bogus spin seems to be they're designing two different type of networks, a more expensive off-exchange plan and a low-cost exchange plan.

Note in the snip below, three insurer do include the first center so the headline that these centers are "off-limits" because of Obamacare is completely false. The insurance companies decided to exclude them.

An Associated Press survey found examples coast to coast. Seattle Cancer Care Alliance is excluded by five out of eight insurers in Washington state's insurance exchange. MD Anderson Cancer Center says it's in less than half of the plans in the Houston area. Memorial Sloan-Kettering is included by two of nine insurers in New York City and has out-of-network agreements with two more.

Next, they're claiming this is to keep "premiums low"

To keep premiums low, insurers have designed narrow networks of hospitals and doctors. The government-subsidized private plans on the exchanges typically offer less choice than Medicare or employer plans.

The fact is that Obamacare expanded access to cancer care, and insurance companies are engaged in deception.

"Overall, when you look at the Affordable Care Act, it improves access to cancer care," said Underwood. "When it comes down to the exchanges, there are some concerns that we have. That is not being critical, that is being intelligent. There are some things we should talk about ... before they start becoming a problem."


Lapidus cited Anthem Blue Cross and Blue Shield, which includes Siteman in many of its plans outside the Missouri exchange, but none within the exchange...Anthem said its network was based on research involving thousands of consumers and businesses. "What we learned was that people are willing to make trade-offs in order to have access to affordable healthcare," the company said. "Our provider networks reflect this."

Why? Obamacare mandates essential coverage for all new plans, regardless of where they're sold.

Huntsman Cancer Institute in Salt Lake City is included by five of six Utah insurers, but Mark Zenger, who manages the center's negotiations with insurance companies, said he's concerned about getting left out by Humana, a major carrier.

A perfect example of the manipulation: Why is Humana excluding the center?

The article goes on to state that the administration will reveiw networks. The law states that insurers are invited to participate in the exchanges, and they can be removed if they don't comply with the rules.



eridani

(51,907 posts)
78. If the AEI were the only source for the OP, you'd have a legitimate gripe
Sun Mar 23, 2014, 12:49 AM
Mar 2014

Since it isn't, you don't Not only the other sources cited say the same thing, but dozens of others in secondary links.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
80. You want more links? Here--
Sun Mar 23, 2014, 01:25 AM
Mar 2014
http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20130817/MAGAZINE/308179921

http://www.theihcc.com/en/communities/health_plans_managed_care/narrow-networks-nice-idea-but-no-panacea_grp45bja.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/01/13/obamacares-narrow-networks-are-going-to-make-people-furious-but-they-might-control-costs/

Although I must say that none of the links address the real problem with narrow networks. I belong to a consumer-owned HMO that charges more for out of network providers. I didn't mind at all having a comparatively narrow selection of primary care providers. What I would mind a lot is that, once establishing a relationship with a provider, some vicious profit-seeking insurance company has the right to disrupt that relationship at will. At Group Health, providers stay around, and I have had the same one for 25 years. With for profit insurers, this is rarely the case. Even in the broader networks people lose their providers all the time because the insurer drops them.

TexasTowelie

(112,094 posts)
62. I posted an analysis that supports what you're saying about a month ago:
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 12:24 PM
Mar 2014
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024560423#post74

Please also read the comments by Ms. Toad within the thread since they could have some effect on those decisions.

The choice of which level plan to choose is influenced significantly by the amount of expenses anticipated during the following year. Ultimately, it makes more sense to save the difference in premiums between a lower-level plan and a higher-level plan to self-insure (particularly if a medical savings account that accepts pre-tax contributions is available), or if one views the situation over the long term and realize that they only need to save one or two years to build that savings account to offset the difference if your actual medical expenses fall into the middle of various ranges.

It is primarily a numbers game that will be dependent on the individual's (or families') situation. However, for the vast majority the best option is going to be the bronze plan.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
67. I have also gotten the advice to go with the highest deductible plan
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 01:03 PM
Mar 2014

And then to buy a supplemental if I want to cover the deductible. Because the cost of bronze + supplemental is less than the cost of a gold or platinum plan. I haven't checked into it yet. If anyone has any info about this, I would appreciate it.

I am basically holding my breath and praying not to get ill until California gets single payer or I move out of the country!

TexasTowelie

(112,094 posts)
70. It's actually the mix of the deductibles and the percentage reimbursement levels.
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 01:42 PM
Mar 2014

I provided a set of examples for a single payer with the same deductible but different reimbursement levels, then compared it to the amount of expenses in a given year. It illustrates that at some levels if you are able to anticipate your expenses then at some levels it might make sense to choose an upgraded coverage plan. However, how many of us can accurately predict our annual expenses in advance?

The primary reason to purchase insurance is to protect against catastrophic events rather than quibble in hindsight about a difference of $1,000 or $1,500 a year if somebody chooses the incorrect plan for that specific year.

If all other things are equal (provider networks, government subsidies, formularies, etc.), then it makes more sense to assume the risk and bank the difference in premiums between the various coverage plans, particularly when examining the situation over a multiple year period. If you are lucky and hit the sweet spots in those ranges, then in a couple of years you will build a decent amount of savings that can be used for other purposes. If you aren't as fortunate then you might lose a small amount among the varying levels of coverage plans, but it really isn't devastating and more than likely the difference would be offset in subsequent years.

For a single individual, the range between about $11,000 to around $25,000 in annual expenses is where the choice of coverage plan might have some financial effect, but that difference is only a couple of thousands of dollars in reimbursements which also need to be offset by the premiums paid. It's the people with anticipated expenses in those ranges that will really need to weigh those calculations.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
79. The bronze plan is obviously the best--unless you get expensively sick
Sun Mar 23, 2014, 12:59 AM
Mar 2014

Then you're fucked. That's the reason why MA still has half of its bankruptcy cases linked to health care expenses.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
81. Thanks
Sun Mar 23, 2014, 12:15 PM
Mar 2014

It seems like all the plans are great until you use them. If you're on bronze, you can't use it until you've paid the huge deductible. If you're on higher plans, you've already paid in so much, and then you have to pay more. I thought there was a out of pocket maximum that would prevent bankruptcy?

I hate insurance. I've always hated having to fight them tooth and nail for everything and losing most of the time. I don't want to buy insurance from a predatory company. That is why I want to buy medicare or a state-run single payer. I don't know who these people are that love their insurance company so much because I have yet to meet one.

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