Is there specific evidence that Edward Snowden is a spy for Russia?

[Pepper Cat]

This is my contribution in asking-for-specific-evidence week.

[djean111]

1. Nope.

And the very people who inundate threads with links - don't seem to have a link to any definitive proof. Amazing!

[MADem]

2. Is there specific evidence that Edward Snowden is a spy for USA?

Is there specific evidence that Edward Snowden is a spy for China?

Inquiring minds want to know, I'm sure...

[sabrina 1]

15. Ask the Republican who started the rumor. Journalists have, but he seemed to disappear after

being asked for proof.

Got any specific evidence you can provide?

Republican moron Rep.Rogers couldn't find any! He desperately would like to find some though.

[MADem]

22. Are you calling the OP a Republican, or is there some "inside" story that we're all supposed to know

yet no one is polite enough to bother to offer a link of explanation...because that's, well, too cool to do or something?

I am asking a question of the thread starter, who doesn't seem to have an answer for his or her question, either.

[sabrina 1]

71. Is the OP Rep. Rogers??

If so, calling him a Republican would be a fact. I was not aware the OP was Rep. Rogers. I do not agree with you that this is Rogers.

What I told the OP was that it was Republican Rogers who started the rumor s/he is asking about and has been unwilling to answer any questions from the media since he made the claim.

[MADem]

77. Why don't you find out and report back to us. nt

[sabrina 1]

80. There's nothing to find out. Wing Nut smears are not worthy of attention especially when they

are caught, as Rogers was, doing just that.

Unless you think Rep. Rogers has any credibility.

[MADem]

82. My conversation has been with someone called "Pepper Cat." Not Rogers. nt

[lame54]

3. Other than his address and he possesses a million-plus American secrets?...

nothing to see here

[Pepper Cat]

16. That's not evidence of being a spy for Russia

That's a hunch you have. Edward's possession of those documents is evidence that....he is in possession of those documents. That's it.

And make up your mind guys. Snowden's revelations used to be old news that everyone knew about. But when it's convenient, they are "secrets" worth giving to Russia. Which is it?

[JoePhilly]

27. The problem is that he took lots of

... documents unrelated to domestic surveillance.

Is it possible the real goal was something else that he took?

Perhaps the domestic surveillance stuff was the distraction, not the actual target.

[Pepper Cat]

28. "Perhaps"? "Is it possible..."? Whatever happened to "specific evidence"?

Those phrases sound a lot like a hunch to me.

Any specific evidence?

By the way, "Is it possible" that Jimmy Carter's emails were monitored? Remember, the bar is lower now. It's all about whether something is possible, rather than evidence.

[JoePhilly]

30. The fact he took lots of other stuff is

a fact.

Do you know why he took the other stuff?

[jmowreader]

44. There are a LOT of non-domestic-surveillance documents the Russians might want

The last significant NSA spy before Snowden was James Hall, and he got arrested in the 1980s. This means the Russians' copies of all their NSA documents were really outdated...if they could only find someone who's not only really pissed off about Obama but who had access to NSA computers, they'd be able to get everything they needed.

Here's the really worrisome part: What if Snowden was their designated decoy, and they have someone else inside?

[tblue37]

61. "Some people say. . . .". nt

[Blue_Tires]

72. The fact that Russia even welcomed him in is pretty damning

plus the story about him spending his 30th birthday in the Russian embassy in Hong Kong...

and the story about the FSB feeding/clothing/housing him and providing armed bodyguards 24 hours a day...

and the story last week about Snowden taking military documents as well as surveillance ones...

and the story this week about our SIGINT in Russia "magically" going silent all of a sudden....

and the basic reality that NOBODY has ever defected to Russia with hundreds of thousands of top secret documents without being properly debriefed...

I could go on, but you should be getting the picture by now -- Starts to add up after awhile, doesn't it?

[sabrina 1]

18. You haven't been following this story, obviously. He no longer possesses any secrets. He disposed of

all documents before setting out on his journey to South America, which WAS his destination before the US Govt forced him to remain in Russia. Don't you think it odd that the US would WANT him Russia? A stopover of a few hours turned into being forced to remain there. Can't seem to get anyone to explain why, if they thought he was a Russian spy, which btw no one in the Obama Admin has ever claimed, only Lunatic Republican Rep. Rogers so far, that they 'send him home carrying all those documents'.

I have more respect for this administration than to think they would do something like that.

[Thinkingabout]

33. Snowden made the choice to go to Hong Kong, if his intended destination was

South America why did he route himself through Hong Kong? It was his choosing from stealing documents to him leaving the US. He committed crimes and his passport was revoked, again he had a choice to return to the US on the warrant. He is the victim of himself.

[sabrina 1]

70. Why did he route himself that way? He has explained that. Did you see what happened

to the President of a South American Sovereign nation's plane when he was flying over Europe?

Snowden knew he could not safely fly over Western Nations, so he chose what would be the safest route to take to get to his destination.

Why didn't the US stop him in Hong Kong btw, rather than Russia?

[Thinkingabout]

74. Now seriously, the day he flew to Hong Kong you are indicating the US government was already

chasing planes, he could have flown to South America in May without a problem on May 20th. He could have flown to Brazil on May 20 and met with Greenwald. His made the choice to go to Hong Kong not the US. If he did not have the knowledge his passport could be revoked if a warrant was issued for his arrest but this is something which happens when warrants are issued. Greenwald as an attorney should have known and advised Snowden. Snowden has to be responsible for his decisions. The US did not force him to Russia. Perhaps some research into why planes does not allow people onto their planes may enlighten you as why he was not allowed to board flights.

[sabrina 1]

76. I know why he was not allowed to board his flight to S.A. The US Government revoked his passport.

I'm not sure what your point is, you just repeated what I said.

However, if I were in charge of these matters and thought someone was a Russian Spy, the last place I would want to allow him to go to or stay in, would be the place where I thought he could do the most harm.

I would let him go on knowing that he would most likely be out of our reach either way. Better to keep him OUT of the country I thought he was working for.

So the only conclusion anyone can come to is that the US does not believe he is a spy. A claim never made by the Obama Administration.

Only morons like Rep. Rogers would make such a stupid claim, then run and hide when asked for proof. But then, he IS a Republican, what can we expect OTHER than lies and obfuscations.

[Thinkingabout]

78. Sorry,did not know I repeated what you said. If his intended destination was SA, why would he fly

Hong Kong. You have look at the whole picture, he went to hacker school, why did he need to know how to hack?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden

This does not provide the whole life of Snowden but does have time lines of when he went to Hong Kong.

Before I would call Rogers an idiot I would look at the dumb choices Snowden made and said he really made some dumb choices. BTW, do you have all the information which has been provided to Rogers? You are judging him on perhaps what you know.

Do you know why planes do not allow people to board their planes without a passport?

[lame54]

68. how do you know he disposed of anything?...

I never called him a russian spy
but he did steal a million -plus secrets(with no possible way of reading them all - he doesn't even know what he stole) and he ended up in russia - not a good combination

[sabrina 1]

4. The claim was made by Republican Rep. Rogers on a major Corporate Media Sunday Morning talk show. He

was asked for some proof later, in a rare moment of actual journalism, by Anderson Cooper, but was 'unavailable' for comment or for anything actually, as he appeared to go into hiding after the question was asked.

He didn't actually SAY IT, he IMPLIED it, with Diane Feinstein sort of nodding along. Neither has come forward with proof or responded to questions about the implication.

It's one of those Urban Myths by now. The goal was to plant the idea and let it spread but I guess they didn't figure on an MSM journalist, who stated that the claim was NOT CNN's due to the fact they could find nothing to prove it, asking for proof.

[randome]

11. Yeah, yeah. And a Russian lawmaker said gay Olympic athletes should be arrested.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/russian-lawmaker-suggests-gay-athletes-prosecuted-2014-winter/story?id=19829868

What some pontificating politician dribbles out of his/her mouth does not represent an official position on anything.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

14. Got anything to prove Republican Rep Rogers to be correct? He has not been able to provide anything

I think you just got lost.

Lol, talk about trying to change the subject!

[randome]

24. I'm not saying Rogers is correct. I'm saying don't trust talk show politicians.

I don't have an opinion yet on Snowden's relationship with Russia. All I know is that Snowden is an idiot.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Tx4obama]

5. Snowden Critics: How Did Russia Get So Good at Evading U.S. Surveillance, Exactly?

Snowden Critics: How Did Russia Get So Good at Evading U.S. Surveillance, Exactly?

Here: http://www.mediaite.com/online/snowden-critics-how-did-russia-get-so-good-at-evading-u-s-surveillance-exactly/

[Rumold]

49. Classified?

The U.S. knowledge and ability to determine current russian counter-espionage capabilities is undoubtedly "Top Secret".

for example

"Russia is suddenly able to evade US SIGINT"

if this were true, it would most certainly be highly classified, and no one with knowledge of US SIGINT could be saying it in public

maybe joshua foust and john shindler are traitors

[KittyWampus]

6. LOL! Your phrasing makes it sound like you've been here for a while. Forget you logged on

under a new handle?

[randome]

7. Did MH370 go down as the result of terrorism?

The world may never know.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The wind doesn't care when you shout at it.
Commit to something that makes a difference.[/center][/font][hr]

[Blue_Tires]

8. Naturally, the only way we'd ever get "specific evidence"

is if someone in the FSB defects or something...Or maybe 40 years after the fact Russia will de-classify some documents and we'll know the truth...Maybe someone in Russia could file a FOIA request -- Oh, wait...Those don't exist in Russia...

But it has to be said that there IS a difference between being an active and willing participant with the FSB, and being an unwitting dupe/useful idiot...Only time will tell which one Snowden turned out to be...

I will however say that in light of so much circumstantial evidence and "random coincidences" which have indirectly benefitted Russia while weakening the U.S. image and our relationship with certain allies, the burden of proof is on SnowWald to show whether they were just being naïve, reckless, or willfully working for an adversary...

I know Greenwald loves to duck, deflect and hide behind his trademark strawmen and snarkiness on Twitter because he's one of those too-cool-for-school cyber tough guys, but these questions aren't going away, and sooner or later he *will* have to address them...

[MattSh]

81. Hey, it would be easy enough to get someone from FSB to defect...

Give him a few million and tell him what to say, and there's your specific evidence. Easy!

The MSM would definitely fall for that!

[Vattel]

9. Of course not. But some Obama loyalists don't care about that.

They embrace McCarthy because they love Obama. Kinda weird.

[Pholus]

41. They will destroy the country (if necessary),

to save the legacy! Me? I just wish President Obama did what Senator Obama promised before the FISA flip flop.

Oh well, can't have it all I guess.

[Marr]

10. It doesn't matter anyway. These smears are meant to distract from NSA domestic spying, which

is the actual issue. 'Deny, disrupt, degrade, deceive'.

[iandhr]

35. It doesn't matter if he is now working for a foreign government?

[malokvale77]

51. Really? (nt)

[woo me with science]

39. This is the correct answer. nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

12. Why do you hate Obama? What he exposed endangered American lives. There was nothing he revealed

that everyone didn't already know. Fuck Ron Paul!

[Maedhros]

20. Ia! Ia! Snowden ftagn! [n/t]

[DisgustipatedinCA]

48. It's almost as bad as the spittle-laced Nader rants we used to see here.

Ftagen!!1!!!

[MisterP]

64. "Nader caused the '06 Lebanon War!" anyone else remember that little nugget?

[Maedhros]

83. Apostasy draws the harshest criticism. [n/t]

[malokvale77]

53. How is that?

What American lives did he endanger? Please explain in more detail.

[Douglas Carpenter]

63. well, his girl friend was a pole dancer! What do you THINK were in those boxes in his garage??

beside he didn't reveal anything we didn't already know

[Cha]

13. Right now it's just a big fucking coincidence.. Russia's New Ability To Evade NSA Surveillance..

Is Either A Crazy Coincidence Or Something Much Worse

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4719907



"In July, primary Snowden source Glenn Greenwald told The Associated Press that Snowden "is in possession of literally thousands of documents that contain very specific blueprints that would allow somebody who read them to know exactly how the NSA does what it does, which would in turn allow them to evade that surveillance or replicate it."

From the big mouth himself.

[Pepper Cat]

19. And then we read past the title, that the US "thinks" that the ability is new

In other words, the anonymous US official hints that Snowden is a Russian spy, therefore he's a Russian spy.

Fail.

[Cha]

26. No, I said ..right now it's just a big fucking coincidence.. eddie's just hack leaker living in

Russia.

[sabrina 1]

21. Very foolish of the US to force Snowden to remain in Russia wasn't it, if this is what they thought.

[Thinkingabout]

34. Where is your proof the US forced him to go to Hong Kong ir Russia and your proof the

US forced him to steal and reveal NSA information?

[leftynyc]

66. Perhaps you can explain

wtf he was doing going through Hong Kong to get to South America? I hope he rots in russia.

[PowerToThePeople]

17. Ron Paul tell you to say that?

[struggle4progress]

23. With Snowden, we enter the mad mirror-puzzle world of intelligence/counter-intelligence

His background, as reported by media, is somewhat blurry: into the army, back out of the army; time in various community college courses; into a minor CIA position, then back out; perhaps some NSA employment; here and there with various "security" contractors ... It's difficult to get much of a definite fix on him

Unless he's just incredibly good, Russian intelligence is very unlikely to have used him to get sensitive information they really wanted, since such information can lose value quickly as the opponent becomes aware of the nature of the breach

On the other hand, it remains possible than Russian intelligence/counter-intelligence has used him in other ways: for example, to cause costly disruption of US networks by requiring US intelligence to cover a large number of possible breaches, due to uncertainty about exactly what may have been disclosed; or to distract attention from some other more limited but more damaging breach that may not yet have been discovered. Distraction is nothing new in the mirror-puzzle world: during WWI, Mata Hari was probably accused of spying to divert attention from a real spy (and this was bad luck for her, since she was executed for it)

More generally, the Russian state might also find it convenient to support him, for various geopolitical propaganda advantages

In the mirror-puzzle world, it seems likely that Russian intelligence/counter-intelligence has and will make use of Snowden's flight to Russia to drop hints (honest or dishonest) to US intelligence/counter-intelligence about what they may have learned from Snowden, or about their own relations to Snowden, in hopes of learning something by monitoring reactions

On the other side, there's the possibility that he is a US intelligence/counter-intelligence operative, intended to be planted in China or Russian; and Chinese suspicions of that may account for China's failure to harbor him. Even if that is not the case, US intelligence/counter-intelligence is itself likely to to drop hints (honest or dishonest) to Russian intelligence/counter-intelligence about what Snowden might know, also in hopes of learning something by monitoring reactions

A rather less likely possibility is that he himself could have been duped by US intelligence/counter-intelligence into carting away a number of essentially worthless documents, that seem sexy on first glance, to prevent attention to other possibly more damaging disclosures. Some observers, of the Church Committee hearings years ago, believed the CIA deliberately handed the Committee sexy-sounding material to prevent discovery of other covert operations

If you demand provable conclusions, you're largely going to out of luck. The problem is that everybody involved in this story is likely to bullshizz. Snowden himself hasn't been terribly honest about what he's actually done, and the coverage isn't always very accurate. Official responses in the US have ranged from "what a damaging breach!" to"nothing he has is important," and from "we really have no idea what he took" to "we think know exactly what he took" -- which, of course, is only to be expected in the mirror-puzzle world. Similarly, Russian intelligence simultaneously denies connection with him -- but in Russia he gets a lawyer with close ties to Russian intelligence.

[Thinkingabout]

36. Appears the idiot played right into the hands of Russia, convient, huh.

[struggle4progress]

43. That is also a definite possibility IMO

[Cha]

58. There's always a possibility that Putin is too stupid to use eddie once in his grasp

to benefit Russia in terms of frequent leakage from ed timed to co-ordinate with the travels of Pres Obama and now Michelle Obama to foreign countries. He's probably totally unaware of how much ed and glenn hate on America.

[idendoit]

25. His words say enough to convince me.

“Russia…[has] my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless. By refusing to compromise their principles in the face of intimidation, [Russia has] earned the respect of the world.” — Edward Snowden

[TreasonousBastard]

29. Of course there is, but it's a secret.

[rhett o rick]

31. I think it's a conspiracy theory. nm

[wildbilln864]

32. can't say whether he's a Russian spy or not...

but I do now know the NSA and the CIA are breaking laws laid out in the U.S. Constitution and elsewhere! Shooting the messenger doesn't change that fact!

[Thinkingabout]

38. Snowden is charged with crimes, haven't read where the NSA or CIA has been charged.

[Pholus]

40. Funny that....

http://theweek.com/article/index/246897/can-americans-sue-over-nsa-surveillance

You need to know you've been targeted, but of course that's a secret.

How conveeeeeeenient. Just a variant of the "golden rule" for the 1%ers.

[Thinkingabout]

45. What do I have to be afraid? The biggest thing which concerns me about a loose nut

Or nuts running around the world delivering information they was not entitled to have. They are like birds of a feather they flock together. The boogie man cometh.

[Pholus]

54. Good for you!

Others of us have different concerns. About the pervasive creep of this *thing* envisioned by those PNAC "nuts" (and Cheney and Rumsfeld) and hidden under the inappropriate cover of obsessive secrecy. Go back and read those right wing wet dreams about how to keep a compliant population. These programs are the original Bush TIA plan to "control cyberspace", just under some different code names because of course TIA was defunded.

Why ANY Democrat would knock themselves out to support a Bushie created program is simply beyond my capability to understand.

[bobduca]

60. Why would a dem support it?

greed/power etc. You know, campaign contributions from big important corporate persons. Gotta get re-elected!

[Thinkingabout]

65. you should be more worried about the crowd you are chearing, they dont mind

Spying and delivering all information. They thrive on private information.

[Pholus]

67. Hmmm, which group of untrustworthy spies to trust.

That's what happens when you require cartoony definitions of "good" and "evil" to support your worldview.

Fine, Snowden is not a nice person. No debate there.

Doesn't change the facts about overreaches into domestic surveillance that he brought to light.

And sadly his claims have generally been validated, unlike the TLA's and their "least untruthful" answers and shifting rationalizations and dependence on double meanings of certain words.

And now, by the admission of this article, we have nicely demonstrated that our focus on European and domestic spying has severely hampered our nation's ability to effectively get intelligence from actual credible threats.

The quality of our intelligence community has OBVIOUSLY sharply dropped in the last 30 years. They got fat and lazy on the post-9/11 cash flow and did easy, quantifiable, largely irrelevant things that look nice on a powerpoint slide instead of the hard, dirty, low-payoff work that would have been required to forsee events in Crimea.

[wildbilln864]

50. and you won't.

it's like the cops when 5 or 6 unload into an unarmed elderly person and kill him and they find the cops did nothing wrong. Same shit here. The ones who could charge are bought and paid for or too scared for their's and their family's safety.

[Thinkingabout]

52. If they are operating within the laws voted on by Congress and unless there

Has a case heard by SC and the law overthrown then the laws of the US apply and public opinion will not be able to make charges against them.

[wildbilln864]

55. no one will...

successfully make any charges that will stick. They are above the law AFACT!
AFACT=as far as they can tell

[sabrina 1]

69. Sad isn't it? We live in a country now where it is those who expose crimes who are charged

while the War Criminals and Wall St criminals roam free, and Rights violators are not even questioned. People like Chelsea Manning who reported torture, is in jail for 35 years while the torturers are protected.

Is is any wonder considering the persecution of Whistle Blowers over the past dozen years or so, that from now on Whistle Blowers will seek political asylum elsewhere? That is the result of abandoning the rule of law and protecting and bailing out criminals.

[iandhr]

37. It's a theory worth exploring.

[Oilwellian]

42. Look over there!

Don't look over here!

I'm sure Russia isn't the only country evading the NSA. Didn't Germany and Brazil just join together to do the same thing?

[Zorra]

46. At one time, he had boxes in his garage, and his girlfriend was a pole dancer.

[Douglas Carpenter]

47. There still is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for him revealing things that might embarrass a Democratic

Administration. If he had revealed something that could embarrass a Republican Administration - that would be admirable. It is quite another matter to reveal things that might have the potential of embarrassing a Democratic Administration. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THAT WHATSOEVER!!

[Thinkingabout]

56. The Republican administration gave information in a news conference in 2005.

Why did Snowden wait until 2013 to reveal what was revealed before. Using your analogy, why did Snowden lay low until after Bush left office? In fact, the Bush administration was not getting warrants for their wiretaps until some time in 2008, where was Snowden until 2013. The information was out before Bush left office thereby making Snowden appear to do this to a Democratic administration but would not do this to a Republican administration. It maybe it was to pave the trail for someone else.

[Douglas Carpenter]

62. the timeline of his employment and access, maybe?

Persons familiar with the 2013 government investigation into Snowden's history said that Snowden had downloaded sensitive NSA material in April 2012.[78] NSA Director Keith Alexander told the U.S. House Intelligence Committee that Snowden "moved into the Booz Allen position in March [2013], but he had worked in an information technology position for the 12 months preceding that at NSA Hawaii. So he'd actually been there 15 months. He had moved from one contract to another."[79][80] In those contractor positions, Snowden held top secret Sensitive Compartmented Information clearances.[81] Snowden took a six-day Certified Ethical Hacker training course in 2010 in India.[82][83][84][85] USIS completed a background check on Snowden in 2011.[86] On January 23, 2014, the US Department of Justice filed fraud charges against the USIS for routinely failing to properly investigate individuals.[87][88] The company is accused of falsifying 665,000 background checks on government employees.[89]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden

[Thinkingabout]

73. If Snowden was being honest with the reason he revealed the information, then this information was

already revealed in 2005 by the Bush Administration. Therefore it is much more than just what he said it was.

Snowden's "sole motive" for leaking the documents was, in his words, "to inform the public as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden

Now more than his sole motive has been revealed and it only continues to indicate this was not his purpose.

[malokvale77]

57. NO NO NO

There is no evidence to that ridiculous "conspiracy theory". Any one who suggests that is dealing in "conspiracy theory".

Got it?

[840high]

59. No.

[msanthrope]

75. Yes. I think Rogers was refering to specific evidence that the grand jury

uncovered, that he and the rest of the gang of 8 would be privy to as an intelligence matter, per briefing by Justice.

You know...I'm still waiting for some intrepid reporter to start asking some notable players about the gj subpeonas.

[NCTraveler]

79. Can I see your previous weeks contributions? nt.