Shocking reaction to blonde woman caught on video as crowds of men swarm around her at Cairo Univ

[Liberal_in_LA]

Shocking reaction to blonde woman caught on video as crowds of men swarm around her as she walks across Cairo university campus

The unnamed woman was jeered at as she walked across the campus
Footage shows a huge crowd of male students following her
One campaigner said that some people had tried to undress her
Cairo University dean under fire for intimating abuse was her fault



Cairo University students reportedly tried to rip the clothes off a blonde woman as she walked across the campus, sparking outrage across the nation.

The unnamed woman, who was wearing a long-sleeved pink top and fitted black jeans, was recently filmed being abused by a large group of male students as she made her way through the university, one of Egypt’s largest.

The men, some of whom were reportedly law students, went wild, wolf-whistling and jeering as she hurried to get away from them.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2589105/Shocking-reaction-blonde-woman-caught-video-crowds-men-swarm-walks-Cairo-university-campus.html#ixzz2x0KX8fmj

[closeupready]

1. Despicable behavior. So I wonder if these guys consider themselves 'straight',

and if so, why is this kind of diminishment of the humanity of women so common among straight men in EVERY culture - Egypt, India, parts of the US, Africa, just about everywhere?

[RKP5637]

116. It must be a "man up" thing, creepy men trying to feel like manly men, I guess. What a

pack of jerks practicing "diminishment of the humanity of women." Most have dicks for brains. Big he-men, I guess, NOT.

[seabeyond]

119. it is men fearful of the ever changing role of women become independent and free of male control.

this is the last frontier for men to continue dominance of women. physical and sexual control. after this... they have no other means to subjugate, demean, degrade, or create woman as submissive. we are seeing the increase of this behavior world wide. we are seeing it in our political, legal, criminal, academic and military systems. it is a world wide issue.

[RKP5637]

121. I'm always appalled that women still have to fight for rights. It's a constant WTF for me that

humanity is so backward. One good thing is with better communications now these rogue acts of flagrant and appalling behavior do not go unnoticed and can be seen for what they are.

[seabeyond]

123. appalling behavior do not go unnoticed and can be seen for what they are.

i think that is why this is becoming so in our face today. because we do see. we are calling out. and is like a vocal last stand of allowing men off with rape, or universities doing nothing, or bullshit blur line songs or boobies songs on academy shows, or govt telling us to put aspirin between knees, or hobby lobby.

and this goes world wide.

i think it is like one huge ass attempt at dominating and controlling and that fuckin genie cannot be put back in the bottle.

[VanillaRhapsody]

153. YUP....and what we are going to experience when Hillary DARES to run for Office

watch them virtually demean and degrade her for ever thinking about ending the Patriarchy!

[Jamastiene]

192. It will be 2008 doubled and all on her.

In 2008, they split their racism and sexism up between Obama and Hillary. If she runs in 2016, they won't be splitting up their hatred. ALL of their hatred will be aimed directly at her. Sadly, a lot of it will come from within the Democratic Party as well. We see that right here on DU an awful lot. I'm not talking about the people who may disagree with her pro warn stances she has had at times or some of her other rightward leaning policies, but about the ones who hate her just because she is a woman...and we DO have people like that right here on DU AND in the Democratic Party.

[VanillaRhapsody]

193. You will soon discover that they hate women MUCH more than even minorities....

I come from a very Red State....the hatred of women is palpable! I cannot wait to see the misogyny against her on DU and then all the proclamations that they aren't really....

[Jamastiene]

195. Oh, I was born, raised, and live in a red state.

Women are viewed as less than even dogs here. I don't doubt what you are saying one bit on that point. And we WILL see exactly what you are saying right here on DU. Remember the picture of Hillary burning at the stake from 2008? That was on here along with a lot of other nasty misogynist crap. It was truly disgusting.

[VanillaRhapsody]

196. Oh its going to be all out war!

I cannot wait!

[closeupready]

130. Exactly. Do you remember that thread from last month

I think it was a cross-post of a blog entry from some guy in SF (Huff. Post, maybe?), arguing that his GAY acquaintances were the misogynists, giving examples - some valid, some not, and probably we don't need to rehash the merits of that thread here, but I thought yesterday after I posted my post here, something like:

Oh look, everyone! Look at all the gay men trying to strip the clothes from the woman here! What misogynists gay men are obviously!

Naturally, the Daily Mail and straight men on DU will assiduously avoid seeing the obvious, and blame INSTEAD, Islam.

[RKP5637]

133. Yep, especially your last sentence. n/t

[nomorenomore08]

200. Islam is always a great scapegoat for Western misogynists of any creed...

[Whisp]

2. just pigs being pigs, nothing new. n/t

[Loudly]

3. Submission to the hijab is to blame. n/t

[redqueen]

10. Bullshit.

The fact that these men rarely see a woman's hair is not the reason they are misogynist subhumans.

Patriarchy is to blame.

[JI7]

15. also, it's not rare to see women's hair in Egypt

i know some people who visited and they wore shorts, tank tops etc. this isn't saudi arabia or iran.

blaming hijab, mini skirts etc is just blaming the victim and taking responsiblity away from those who are abusive.

[pnwmom]

53. Also, she's wearing a long, yellow scarf. That isn't her hair. n/t

[DrDan]

95. and Saudi Arabia is not like that

We lived there for 4 years - my wife and daughter NEVER covered their hair of face when we went into public areas

Visitors to Cairo may wear shorts or tank tops - I do not remember seeing that among the Egyptians during my 25 or so trips to Cairo.

But you are correct about seeing women's hair in public - it is common. Also, western dress is common.

[closeupready]

32. +1000.

[Loudly]

38. If that were true, they would be harrassing all the women on campus.

But they're not, are they.

Submission first. That's Islam.

Here's submission with style (but it's still submission):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/20/tehran-street-style_n_4467366.html

[JI7]

61. many women ARE harassed there, just because it wasn't taped and put online

doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Violet_Crumble]

66. Are you saying women who wear hijabs don't get harrassed in Egypt?

Because if you are, that's complete bullshit. Women from all walks of life are harassed regularly and it's got nothing to do with what they wear.

And my friend who wears a hijab isn't submitting to anything, so that's yet another thing where you've got no idea what yr talking about...

[Loudly]

67. I'm completely comfortable with being more of a feminist than your friend.

I don't have a religion or religious state intimidating me.

It's easier for me to point out and reject the oppression.

I don't suffer the adverse consequences from doing so.

Other than, strangely, having to fight you?

[Violet_Crumble]

69. I doubt very much yr more of a feminist than my friend...

And where on earth do you get the ridiculous idea that there's some religious state or religion intimidating her? Do you really believe women don't have minds of their own and can't make the decision on their own what they want to wear?

[Loudly]

71. I got a sense of there being undue influence, at a minimum, from academic articles like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab

[Dorian Gray]

81. Hah

I love that you're holding up a wikipedia entry as an "academic article." That's sweet.

[Violet_Crumble]

86. I get a sense of there being undue Wikignorance...

I rarely get to meet anyone who views a Wikipedia entry as being an academic article. What next? Tumblr?

btw, you might get a laugh out of this if you haven't already seen it

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/

[Dorian Gray]

170. That's funny....

Love the Onion.

I've looked things up on Wikipedia, but I've never upheld it to be academic.

[Loudly]

155. Wow, what a snob.

If there is a more convenient reference for comprehensive and sourced overview knowledge on practically any subject, I sure would love to know what it is.

Wikipedia is the most deserving recipient of charitable giving in the category of education.

[Dorian Gray]

173. Wikipedia

is NOT academic.

That's not snobbery. There is too much of an ability for misinformation because of how it's structured.

Sure, I've looked information up on Wikipedia, but it is not generally accepted as an academic source.

And I would save my educational charitable donations for organizations that provide academic experiences to children from lower income families. I would not give them to a website open to everybody and anybody to add information to.

[Loudly]

177. You obviously have not tried to get an edit accepted at Wikipedia.

The process is heavily protected, and improving all the time.

As far as how academic it is, would you consider Britannica or World Book to be academic?

Not to be cited as a source in academic papers, but certainly comprised of content which draws from academic sources.

Maybe encyclopedic is a better word.

To the best of my observation and belief, Wikipedia's articles seek to be impartial and not driven by ideological or marketing agenda. Covering traditional subjects which mirror old-style encyclopedias but also including popular culture areas which can help keep a person relevant and "up to speed."

If you truly believe in affordable education, then once a child can read give them a daily reading list of Wikipedia articles on a wide variety of topics and watch them blossom.

An enormous value for the price of a computer and an internet connection.

[EX500rider]

187. Study: Wikipedia as accurate as Britannica

'Wikipedia is about as good a source of accurate information as Britannica, the venerable standard-bearer of facts about the world around us, according to a study published this week in the journal Nature."




http://news.cnet.com/2100-1038_3-5997332.html

[Loudly]

198. As Bart would say, Dude thanks for that.

I wonder if Britannica even has an article on bitcoin yet. Just as an example.

[Scootaloo]

77. People like Loudly don't beleive Muslim women have minds

They also think that all Muslims are defined by the Taliban.

Typical DU islamophobia, really.

Do take note that he conveniently overlooks that this incident has sparked outrage in Egypt, has been carried by numerous talk shows in the country, and is being used ot help Egyptian feminist groups make their position more visible. 'Cause those parts don't fit the script.

[Dorian Gray]

82. Thumbs up

[Violet_Crumble]

87. That doesn't surprise me in the slightest...

I know only about ten or twelve DUers read the I/P group, but I'm one of them and after reading this post, nothing would come as a great surprise to me..

Islam seeks to replace everything with itself.

As a result, Palestinians long ago lost what it meant to be Palestinian.

Leaving them with little more than an identity as displaced Muslims with an Old Testament grudge against Jews.

Making them largely indistinguishable from other Arabs in the region, except for whatever unique value they have to the Sunni establishment to foment hatred.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=59958

Charming...

[redqueen]

124. That's a guy? A guy arguing that he's "more of a feminist' because... why?

I can't even...

[closeupready]

168. lol, that made me laugh. haha

you are so right, redqueen.

On edit, oh wait! I know! He's more of a feminist because he says so, and he's a guy and what a guy says GOES. k?

[VanillaRhapsody]

156. well they certainly can't in Cairo...

this is proof of that isn't it?

[Dorian Gray]

80. You can't make the claim

that you're more feminist than anybody. You don't know.

[nomorenomore08]

202. Yeah, a bizarre post, and incredibly arrogant/presumptuous too.

Not to mention the laughable spectacle of a man claiming to be "more feminist" than a woman he's never heard of.

[redqueen]

70. No, it's because she isn't with a man. Same as street harassment here...

they keep their mouths shut and their paws to themselves unless you're alone.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

40. I'm not sure that's her hair.

I think it may be a scarf.

[pnwmom]

51. Of course it's a head scarf. Odd that the writer couldn't tell the difference

between blonde hair and a long, yellow scarf.

[Scootaloo]

85. Well, it's the Daily Mail

The goal is to sell outrage against Muslims for that paper. And for most people, a blonde woman is a white woman... so here we have a "blonde" woman being harassed by a "pack" of Muslim men. Perfect recipe for what the mail sells.

[pnwmom]

107. You're right. It sure says a lot about the DM and its readers. n't

[pnwmom]

59. Plus, that's NOT her hair! It's a bright headscarf. n/t

[RKP5637]

118. K&R! n/t

[Jesus Malverde]

35. ^^^^ Some People don't get it ^^^^

When the majority of women are veiled, those who are not, are seen as prostitutes or otherwise fair game for abuse. After all they are not pious Muslim women. You can tell from her clothes.

It's a sick paradigm brought to us by radical islamic movements.

The hijab originated in Saudi and is not a muslim tradition until the more modern era. It's a way of disempowering women and forcing them into a male dominated system.

Egypt in the 1950's was in bed with the socialist and that meant progress for women. In order to destroy socialism the government empowered the muslim brotherhood as a social service organization which enabled it to spread it's extreme conservatism.

We see the same thing happening in Libya...RIGHT NOW.

[Dorian Gray]

83. Interesting

but she is wearing a veil. That's not her hair. It's a yellow veil.

[Jesus Malverde]

84. If you read the article it's because of her tight pants.

‘This girl entered the university wearing an abaya (loose cloak) and then took it off in the faculty, and appeared with those clothes, that caused, in reality… the incident,’ Nassar said on private Egyptian channel ONTV. He said university guards turn away students who show up at campus dressed inappropriately.

Two women dressed in abayat and niqāb. Abaya is the dress and niqāb is the face covering.



Taking off her abaya apparently was too much for the conservative muslims.

[redqueen]

127. Bullshit again. This framing is fucked.

those clothes, that caused, in reality… the incident,

No, the clothes did not cause this.

No more than My Little Pony backpacks cause bullying.

We have to stop repeating bullshit framing as if it is not bullshit.

[Jesus Malverde]

129. Agreed

Thats where they are coming from.. an extremely conservative and patriarchal perspective.

Its a perspective where women are neither free to choose what they wear, nor where they wear it.

A culture that imposes a dress code on women and not men.

These men cannot respect women who do not submit to them, their concepts of modesty or their extreme religious views.

A woman who is independent of the dominant imposed culture is a threat, and not deserving of the respect they would give their mothers or sisters...

[Jamastiene]

194. Her clothes nor anything else she was wearing caused it.

A bunch of asshole misogynists caused it.

[Recursion]

48. Err... Egypt doesn't allow female reporters to wear hijab on TV

And it's only after Mubarak fell that it was socially acceptable for women to wear it in public again. It's still estimated at something like 15% of the female population, mostly the very poor.

And, anyways, look at what happens at frat parties in the US. Is hijab to blame for that?

[Loudly]

54. There's been a secular pushback against Islamic usurpation of the Egyptian culture.

And it's been going on for almost 100 years.

But please note that every other woman in that video of the woman being harrassed IS wearing a hijab.

NOT wearing one (and wearing form fitting clothing) is what brought her a world of shit.

Those boys regard her to be fair game, and it's open season.

Peer group pressure at its abomidable finest.

Male. And undeniably Islamic.

[Recursion]

56. Except... she's wearing a yellow head scarf

[Loudly]

57. If it is, then it's deceptively chosen to look like a mane of blond hair.

Are you suggesting that this was an evocative "sting?"

Which combined with the form fitting clothing was deliberately calculated to incite?

Why are they treating her like she's some kind of latter day Lady Godiva?

[Jesus Malverde]

93. According to The New York Times, about 90 percent of Egyptian women currently wear a headscarf

[edit]
In 1923, Hoda Shaarawi made history when, while waiting for the press, she removed her veil in a symbolic act of liberation. The veil gradually disappeared in the following decades, so much so that by 1958 an article by the United Press (UP) stated that "the veil is unknown here." However, the veil has been having a resurgence since the 1970s, concomitant with the global revival of Muslim piety. According to The New York Times, about 90 percent of Egyptian women currently wear a headscarf. Small numbers of people wear the niqab. The secular government does not encourage women to wear it, fearing it will present an Islamic extremist political opposition. In the country, it is negatively associated with Salafist political activism. There has been some restrictions of wearing the hijab by the government of which it views hijab as a political symbol, in 2002, two presenters were excluded from a state run TV station for deciding to wear hijab on national television. The American University in Cairo and the Helwan University once attempted to ban niqab wearer entry in 2004 and 2007. Mohammad Tantawi, a leading Islamic scholar in the country and the head of Al-Azhar University, issued a fatwa in October 2009 arguing that veiling of the face is not required under Islam. He had reportedly asked a student to take off her niqab when he spotted her in a classroom, and he told her that the niqab is a cultural tradition without Islamic importance. It is widely believed that the hijab is becoming more of a fashion statement than a religious one in Egypt, with many Egyptian women, influenced by social peer pressure, wearing colorful, stylish head scarves along with western style clothing. Government ban on wearing the niqab on college campuses at the University of Cairo and university exams in 2009 were overturned later. Minister Hany Mahfouz Helal met protests by some human rights and Islamist groups.

In 2010, Baher Ibrahim of The Guardian criticized a trend of pre-pubescent girls in Egypt wearing the hijab more and more.

As of 2012, many Egyptians in the elite are opposed to hijab, believing it harms secularism. By 2012 some businesses established bans on veils, and Egyptian elites supported these bans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab_by_country#Egypt

[DrDan]

94. what a load . . .

[quinnox]

4. Many of the cultures there are very male-dominated

they treat males as the "kings".

[WinkyDink]

89. Not news.

[Vattel]

5. Apparently in Egypt even women dressed very conservatively frequently get harassed.

"More than 99 per cent of women in Egypt have been subjected to a form of harassment, according to a study carried out in 2013 by UN Women."

[Spider Jerusalem]

6. In America, too.

And the UK. And France and Italy and lots of other places. This isn't just an Egyptian problem although this is a pretty extreme example. (I don't think I know many women who haven't been on the receiving end of harassment and unwanted attention from strange men in public places.)

[maxsolomon]

31. Please cut the false equivalence

No one said it was only in Egypt, but you had to jump in and say "it happens in America, too!". Bullshit. The occasional wolf whistle or "smile, honey" in America from some homeless drunk (and that's about all that remains of street harassment) is nothing compared to this. They tried to pull her clothes off!

The basic message is: if you are a single woman in public in Egypt, you're a whore. That's not how women are treated on the street in America, period.

Egyptian men need to own up to this problem before they can solve it. I'm not holding my breath.

[Spider Jerusalem]

36. Pfft.

No, the occasional wolf whistle is not "all that remains of street harassment" in the US. There are a lot more stories like this than you'd think. (And it is how women are treated on the street in some places in America, in fact.)

Considering how many men on this very site don't think objectification is a problem, and that women shouldn't dress like that if they don't want attention, etc? I'm not really holding my breath for things getting any better in the States either.

[pnwmom]

60. It is bad here, but it is much worse there.

They coerce women into covering up by the way they treat women who aren't dressed "appropriately."

And this woman was wearing a long scarf, long sleeves, and long pants.

[Sheldon Cooper]

37. Clueless.

You are completely wrong about the state of street harassment in America. But thanks for mansplainin' it to us.

[Recursion]

49. "The occasional wolf whistle"

Head, meet sand. Sand, head.

[MADem]

58. As someone who is familiar with that end of the world, you've got several things going on here...

First, the woman's dress is outside the norm for travelling on foot in a public place.

Second, she is not accompanied by a male or men. If she were, none of that would have happened. The males may have looked, and talked among themselves, but they would not have approached, they would not have jeered and they would not have touched.

Is this "right?" No.

Does it happen? Yes. A lot. All the time. And NOT just in Egypt, not by a LONG shot.

[liberalhistorian]

64. Are you a woman in the United States?

If not, then you have no idea what we deal with or what the hell you're talking about. If you are, and you haven't experienced anything like that, then you've lived a very sheltered life indeed.

[Starry Messenger]

65. I didn't know you were a woman.

[VanillaRhapsody]

160. You are not a woman are you?

[pnwmom]

55. The point is the harassment is that much more extreme in some places

than it is in others.

[Spider Jerusalem]

189. Sure it is

and I'd submit that it's much more extreme in some places right there in the USA than the white middle-class suburbanites going "but this sort of thing doesn't happen here" begin to comprehend. And that goes for white middle-class suburbanites of both genders. For instance things like this, and this, and this, and this. I could go on, but perhaps you see the point.

[redqueen]

191. Thank you. Some people seem to think street harassment is no big deal.

e.g. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4725883

[nomorenomore08]

203. People/men are generally shitty everywhere. Anyone who denies that is either sheltered or blind.

[Jgarrick]

165. Why, there's no difference at all!

[JI7]

17. in the US and around the world also , sexual abuse has nothing to do with what women are wearing

[pnwmom]

7. Not to this extreme, but when I went to Europe with 2 blond friends

a long time ago, we were often tailed by men shouting "Rubia!" or "Bianda!" in Spain and Italy.

[Politicalboi]

8. That poor woman

Last edited Tue Mar 25, 2014, 04:33 PM - Edit history (1)

How can she go back to school without fearing for her life, or anywhere for that matter. When and if these assholes get punished, who are they going to blame.

[TheFrenchRazor]

9. what rape culture? nt

[Tsiyu]

11. lol

even though it's not really funny at all....

[Madam Mossfern]

12. Not for nothing

but if you click on the link, and watch the video, you'll see that it is a woman wearing a golden head scarf - you can't tell if she's blonde because you can't see her hair!

I'd say that this is merely part of an anti-Muslim agenda. Yes, are there abuses of women in the Middle East? Sure. But articles like this do not help.

[FSogol]

13. Daily Mailed again!

[seveneyes]

19. What does the Daily Mail have to do with savage sexual assault by these males?

What the males did was wrong and they should be arrested and imprisoned for it.

[leftynyc]

14. So what does help?

Pretending it's not happening? How about this story? Want to ignore this also? I mean, we wouldn't want to upset the poor little males who simply cannot help themselves.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014764931

[Madam Mossfern]

28. Did I say anything that comes close to that?

There are abuses for sure; serious abuse of women. How does a faux article help? If one part of the story is false, do you believe the rest of it?

Did you not know this was happening? Now that you've seen this video, what do you intend to do?

[leftynyc]

76. Speak out - LOUDLY

I'm NOT going to pretend it's not happening, I'm NOT going to make excuses for it and I'm NOT going to close my eyes to it because one part of one story is wrong and if this had anything to do with a religion other than Islam, we wouldn't even be having this conversation - we would be pulling together with purpose - not wringing our hands.

[Madam Mossfern]

176. I don't think you understood what I posted

This article is from a Tabloid. We all know about the abuses of women in the Middle East. The article was questionable. There are far more credible sources that document women's rights issues throughout the world.

Yes, if it were any other religion than Islam the Daily Mail would not have written that article.
Not taking this particular article seriously is not closing one's eyes to the issue, nor is it hand wringing.

So now that what you are NOT going to do, just what do you intend to DO, especially about this specific incident?

[VanillaRhapsody]

161. What if our "agenda" is Pro-woman instead...

because articles that show women actually being harassed should NEVER see the light of day right?

[siligut]

16. Hot pink boobs are like a toreador's cape to men

She is shapely and wearing tight clothes, but those men made it a point to treat her without respect, that wouldn't happen in America.

[redqueen]

18. You misspelled 'misogynist assholes'

and your declaration that it wouldn't happen here is ridiculous.

Remember Tailhook? Ever dared to wear a mini skirt to a rock concert?

[siligut]

20. Wishful thinking on my part . . .

Like a pack of dogs, they are bravest when in a group.

[redqueen]

22. Thanks to Catharine MacKinnon, it's at least illegal at work.

Out in public? Can you imagine what would happen if you tried to complain to a cop about such treatment?

[siligut]

23. I didn't see them grabbing at her, but the article says they did

That is assault, but yes, depending upon the cop, a woman might not receive much assistance/support.

[redqueen]

24. I'd bet on at least a dismissive eyeroll,

if not a hearty laugh. Perhaps a lecture about dressing that way, being at that place, etc.

[siligut]

27. Yes, a male cop might even fall in line with the rest of the pack

I am disgusted that I can believe that, but I have lived in Florida and Utah.

[maxsolomon]

33. Tailhook was when?

1991? That's a quarter century ago.

Is it so hard to say that things are better in America now than they were 25 years ago? My 25 year old mini-skirt wearing daughter has never been sexually harassed at a rock concert.

[MadrasT]

96. Every time I go into the city of Philadelphia

wearing anything that makes me look "feminine", I become the object of unwanted attention and harassment by men.

Every. Fucking. Time.

I am average looking, nobody's definition of "hot", and almost 50.

I have taken to wearing army surplus clothes when I go into the city because it feels like a combat zone.

No problems at all if I don't look too "girly".

IT IS BULLSHIT and I am sick of it.

Usually only happens when I am alone, if I am with a man, usually no problem.

[VanillaRhapsody]

162. So its all cleared up now?

thanks for mansplaining that for us too!

[maxsolomon]

178. who said it was cleared up?

every time something horrid occurs overseas, DU has to jump in with "judge not lest ye be judged".

Egypt has generations of enlightenment to go through to be as horrible as us.

[VanillaRhapsody]

181. well it is hardly what YOU described...

Do you also tell Black people how little racism there is now?

[nomorenomore08]

204. You're still minimizing a persistent cultural issue. Whether you realize it or not. n/t

[Rex]

21. Wow, like a pack of animals...is that the first female they've ever encountered?

But NO, there is not such thing as 'rape culture' as some suggest...they were trying to tear off her clothes for her own safety!

[NoOneMan]

25. I blame the men of DU for this

[VanillaRhapsody]

163. because no one on DU ever denies Rape Culture.....

[LanternWaste]

167. At least the one's trivializing and minimizing the issue...

At least the one's trivializing and minimizing the issue itself via the mechanism of irrelevant and petulant implication, and pretending its about them rather than the victims themselves...


(insert rationalization here...)

[seabeyond]

171. bumpin shoulders with you.... hey dude....

lookin good.

[nomorenomore08]

205. Yeah, it's all such a laugh, ain't it?

[Threedifferentones]

26. This shit will always be upsetting, but I wish I could say I was shocked.

[boomer55]

29. Pepper spray, a taser and a platoon of female marines

Teach em a quick lesson in respect or else

[yuiyoshida]

30. Women report that they are harassed regardless of whether

"Women report that they are harassed regardless of whether they are dressed in conservative Islamic veils or Western-style clothing."

That pretty much says it all doesn't it?

[freshwest]

75. +1

[Jesus Malverde]

34. The madness in Egypt is the result of years of the saudi's exporting their radical islamic

practices to Egypt through the use of guest workers who go to Saudi to work and then come back to Egypt radicalized.

Here are Egyptian women in the 1950's







and after years of radicalization by the Saudi's and the muslim brotherhood

[philosslayer]

39. More bashing of Islam?

Thanks for playing. Sure you're in the right place?

[Skip Intro]

45. really? n/t

[pnwmom]

62. Not Islam in general. Radical Islamic fundamentalists -- not the same thing. n/t

[WinkyDink]

90. Are you myopic?

[joeglow3]

126. What you see as bashing of Islam, I see as sticking up for women's rights

But, keep trying to shut people up.

[seabeyond]

128. oh my. lmao. my my my. wow. hm. joeglow, having your support, as a woman,

simply warms my heart.

keep 'em naked, right?

sure glad we have you on our side. where would we be otherwise

truly, lmao

[gollygee]

140. They're only interested in women being empowered to make choices

when women's choices make them more sexually available. Interesting.

[seabeyond]

143. exactly. thru out the thread i am getting that feel. and thru out. a man issue... to control and

dominate womens sexuality. to own the womans sexuality. our liberal men do it just as hard and fast as their conservative counterparts.

[seabeyond]

145. we wimminz get a little uppity and out comes the tits... SI... and other means

to put us wimminz in our place. wimminz body a mere tool to control the masses. and they talk about our hysteria, lol

[VanillaRhapsody]

166. Because they secretly resent us sexually...they think our bodies give us some

imaginary power over them....they are THAT weak.

[seabeyond]

172. i see it as THAT conditioned. and separated from their authentic self. which to me, is the ultimate

in sad.

[VanillaRhapsody]

182. Okay...weak and sad

[joeglow3]

212. I see you are looking for more attention

Hopefully it made your day just a bit brighter.

[nomorenomore08]

206. So why do some people (not necessarily you) only "stick up for women's rights"

when it involves Muslims or Muslim nations?

[joeglow3]

213. It is easier the more obvious it is.

And it is possible to disagree on more subtle examples.

[snooper2]

132. I bash fundies of all shapes and sizes, you in the right place?

[MosheFeingold]

148. Pointing out a problem in some sects of Islam is not bashing

There are some serious, very broad, problems tolerated in the Middle East: treating women, gays, and non-muslims poorly is a fact.

And it is encouraged by political and religious authorities in those countries. Being gay in every country but Israel in the ME is a death sentence.

And yes, other religions do this in varying degrees.

Dress immodestly in certain Hasidic neighborhoods in Israel and you will get chased out (albeit not raped or abused) for not conforming to their choice of dress.

Now, do people unfairly bash Islam? Yes. But do incidents like this need to be reported and stopped? Yes.

[VanillaRhapsody]

180. I am with the previous poster....I bash ALL Fundamentalism...

ALL Fundamentalism is dangerous....I don't care if it is Christian, Muslim or Jewish....or any others for that matter.

[rumdude]

43. Wow - n/t

[rumdude]

44. Afghanistan in the 1960s (photos)

http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2013/01/28/podlich-afghanistan-1960s-photos/5846/

[Jesus Malverde]

74. Thanks for the link

Some people don't realize the arab world and middle east have not always dominated by extreme conservative Islamic movement.

If anyone wants some recent event, what has happened in Libya over the last 4-5 years gives a sense of what happened in other middle eastern countries over the decades.

The Afghanistan taliban we see today is the output of radicalized madrases set up in pakistan in the 80's using the Whahhabi philosophy from Saudi Arabia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi

[Skip Intro]

46. Something clearly changed. n/t

[JI7]

79. you are comparing Beach Pics to Protest Pics ?

[Jesus Malverde]

91. Well thanks for asking... lets look at the women of Cairo University over the years....

Cairo University 1959. - Note the women are dressed in a western style, they don't wear head scarves,
Women are wearing short sleeves, form fitting tops that show off their figure, and are wearing skirts that show some bare skin on the legs. Apparently they managed to pose for a picture dressed like this without causing a riot.


Cairo University 1978 - Nasser has been deposed, arab nationalism has been crushed and the soviet socialist influence on Egypt has been suppressed, but golly the women still don't know their place, they are showing hair, skin and have the nerve to think they can act like western women. (This is the year the camp david accords were signed.) The state is run by the military with the cooperation and "aid" of the United States.


Well well what happened between 1978 and 1995, holy shit! something big. While American women were in the midst of a sexual/womens rights revolution. The heretofore progressive women of Egypt are taking a trip to the middle ages.

Now roughly 50% of the women are "pious" muslims who dress conservatively. Keep in mind the majority of the 1959 women identified themselves as muslim, the religion didn't change but in practice did. Now a much more extremist conservatism is forcing itself on the women of Egypt.



By 2004 the disenfranchisement of women in Egypt is complete. Gone are the long sleeves, the leg baring skirts and tight fitting tops. Those are accoutrements of loose women who deserve to be treated like the woman in the OP, who dared to wear form fitting clothes.

These "traditions" are not native cultural practices. These are fashions imposed by extremists promoting extreme versions of Islam.

Hope that helps put the enslavement of Egyptian women by conservative Islam into perspective.

The same process is currently underway in "liberated" Libya over the last three years.

[Scootaloo]

97. Yes, let's DO look at the pictures of Cairo University over the years.

Now, you claim that women are disenfranchised - enslaved, even! - by the living hell that is a *GASP!* hijab. As opposed to skirts, stockings, and lifts, I guess.

Know what you AREN'T noticing, Malverde?

In each picture you posted there are successively more women in it. 1959 is an utter sausage festival. 2004 looks like Cairo University became an all-women college or something.

Tell me. Why is it that "Progressives" like you define women's progress solely by the amount of skin you get to see? Because that is the only argument you're making here. You set your standards by bathing suits, then complain that the women cover their hair in 2004. All while ignoring, by the very evidence you present, the growing prevalence of women in at least Egyptian academia and student bodies. Also women have been at the front and center of Egyptian protest - Against Mubarak, against Morsi, and now against Sisi. Again, bolstered by your own images.

Further, your complaint is based on another area of ignorance - The "Western Dress" you long for was government-imposed. During the Nasser era it was next to impossible to get a job if you wore anything else. You were treated as a provincial rube, harassed by police, mocked, and otherwise mistreated. This was part of the "Westernization" policy adopted by an unelected strongman government. The people of Egyot nowadays are actually more free in their fashion choices than they were then, even if those choices may often reflect more conservative or - GOD FORBID - less western taste.

[Jesus Malverde]

99. Strange takeaway.

Conservative Islam is not empowering for women.

Peace.

[Scootaloo]

100. You really don't know what you're talking about

This is a veil:

This is a veil:

These are veils:

This isa veil (albeit the berber take on the concept)


Do you see the difference?

No, just as you are of the opinion that more and more Egyptian women are educated is utterly irrelevant compared to the fact that they choose to cover their hair.

And yeah. Choose. Egypt has no laws or impositions regarding head garments.

[Jesus Malverde]

104. I think the point that totally went over your head

is that women in the 1950-1995 could dress in a western way and not cause a riot.

You seem to imply that freedom was some kind of cultural imperialism that was imposed by the evil socialist. (I don't get it.)



Regarding the Hijab.

Hijab" or "ḥijāb" (/hɪˈdʒɑːb/, /hɪˈdʒæb/, /ˈhɪ.dʒæb/ or /hɛˈdʒɑːb/; Arabic: حجاب‎, pronounced ) is a veil that covers the head and chest, which is particularly worn by a Muslim female beyond the age of puberty in the presence of adult males outside of their immediate family. It can further refer to any head, face, or body covering worn by Muslim women that conforms to a certain standard of modesty. It not only refers to the physical body covering, but also embodies a metaphysical dimension, where al-hijab refers to "the veil which separates man or the world from God". Hijab can also be used to refer to the seclusion of women from men in the public sphere. Most often, it is worn by Muslim women as a symbol of modesty, privacy and morality. According to the Encyclopedia of Islam and Muslim World, modesty in the Qur'an concerns both men's and women's "gaze, gait, garments, and genitalia." The Quran admonishes Muslim women to dress modestly and cover their breasts and genitals. The Quran has no requirement that women cover their faces with a veil, or cover their bodies with the full-body burqua or chador. Some claim that the Qur'an does not mandate Hijab.

[Scootaloo]

109. And they still can, and do so every day

This incident is an exception, as in, not the norm, which is why it is - according to the article itself - sparking outrage in egypt. Given that she was dressed in a fashion that you consider "enslavement" only serves to further udnermine your point.

And yes, western style dress was imposed by Nasser, as I explained to you. As in, lack of real freedom to choose otherwise. It's not a question of "evil," despite your ignorant hyperbole, but simply that he instituted a policy that targeted traditional Egyptian fashion for replacement with western standard dress. Call me crazy but I find government regulation of fashion to be an illiberal idea.

And you persist in ignoring the evidence you yourself presented, regarding the increasing female involvement in education and university in Egypt. I guess that's because it doesn't go well with your script, wherein fashion should be more important to women than their education. Specifically fashion that gives you lots of skin to look at, apparently

Congratulations on discovering a semantic argument. I really suggest though that if you want to discuss the subject, you look up the proper terms and their common use. "Veil," spoken as such, refers to the niqab and its variations. Hijab is a scarf worn over the hair and around hte neck that does not cover the face.

Funny thing is how many Western women were wearing headscarves in the period of hte 50's and 60's

Jackie Kennedy. What a tragedy, no doubt browbeaten into such slavery by her irish-Catholic keeper!


Audrey Hepburn, a sad drone in a hive of systematic hair-oppression


...Okay, your guess is as good as mine on this one.

[Jesus Malverde]

111. Now we've moved into some kind of performance art.

Lets ignore on how a Christian copt or Atheist women could go to school in Cairo without pretending to be a Muslim and not hiding her sexy seductive, mob inducing hair. Pretty empowering eh.

You know there is a dress code police at the university, enforcing Islamic dress...right?

I guess it was her fault for wearing tight pants.

[Scootaloo]

114. Dress code police... In Egypt.

Sigh.

No. There's not.

Now toddle off back to Atlas Shrugged. Pam misses you.

[Jesus Malverde]

117. Who the fuck is Pam? From the article...

‘This girl entered the university wearing an abaya (loose cloak) and then took it off in the faculty, and appeared with those clothes, that caused, in reality… the incident,’ Nassar said on private Egyptian channel ONTV. He said university guards turn away students who show up at campus dressed inappropriately.

Apparently this liberal woman pulled a fast one on the campus police and showed up a little too sexy for the extreme conservatives.

Who the fuck is Pam?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

144. Forget it, dude. You won't get a word of condemnation out of him unless you got video of the mob

shopping at Hobby Lobby.

[Mosby]

185. Pamela Geller, a far right wing nut who is islamophobic

[Jesus Malverde]

197. thanks...nt

[Scootaloo]

190. Aha, thanks

See, I thought you were talking about Saudi or Iranian-style morality police within Egypt. Okay. The university enforces a dress code. That's a lot different than "fashion police," Malverde. Evidently the campus guards had no problem with her dress - and the president of the U is simply trying to cover his ass.

The problem in this scenario is the pack of hooligans assaulting this woman, and the president of the university blaming her for it. Here you are, condemning not the people abusing her... but rather blaming her headwear.

[nomorenomore08]

207. Western democracy isn't always either. Look at Texas or Virginia these days.

And the point is certainly not to say "We're as bad as them!" but to say that "Conservative Islam" is not the only repressive force in the world RE: women's rights. Yet some behave as though it is - easier than confronting our own culture's pathologies, I suppose.

[redqueen]

135. This isn't about fucking clothing!!!!

How many fucking times does this have to be repeated?!

[seabeyond]

136. control and dominance of womens sexuality and is world wide, not just muslim countries. nt

[Jesus Malverde]

137. Totally agree.. it's about culture and conservative religious poison.

Clothes only demonstrate the extreme disenfranchisement thats occurred.

[seabeyond]

139. wrong. it is a man issue. it is not a conservative, or religion or.... issue. it is a man issue

and it is universal. and getting very loud. and in our face.

that is what needs to be displaced

[Jesus Malverde]

142. Agreed

You get em sea beyond! Your awesome. Thanks for helping me take politics and religion out of it. I got confused.

[seabeyond]

146. i hear ya. you are rolling me along in thought. as are the ones that only support womens rights if

the woman is naked.... entertaining man.

this has really become a blast of a thread.

[seabeyond]

141. maybe this is what rainn was talking about. people taking away from responsibility of to shift to

culture, religion, party.

and i say it is not a conservative or religius issue, but a man issue. bring it to the one responsible.

this is interesting. and though i agreed with rainn's purposals, and about damn time, on the other hand, i thought that it important to understand rape culture. cause that is the heart of where the problem is. address that, as we call out individuals... they are the rapist. use the name.

it is a fact that extremist to control women are universally raising their ugly heads. muslim women choose to dress as they wish for their reasons in no way.... excuse, condones, allows this behavior by men. the men using religion as an EXCUSE to abuse a woman.

muslim world calling the men out. not the religion or the scarfs or the dress.

good stuff.

[redqueen]

154. We have no problem calling out the issue when it's bullying a kid over a My Little Pony backpack.

But for some reason when it's women being sexually harassed FOR BEING FEMALE AND WITHOUT A MAN/OWNER AROUND there's all this derailing and denial.

[seabeyond]

157. they want their excuses. they need them. how many of us lets the little bully have the excuse for

bullying. none of us. not even kinda. unless it is a privilege or entitlement. then the only way is to be allowed their excuses.

[seabeyond]

149. the bottom line. why men are sooo fuggin pissed off. i GET it. euraka. lol. why they are so

pissed and calling us out, and loud and in face is cause....

they do not like their excuses taken away. that is all this is. universal. men wanting to be able to keep their excuses denigrating women, submissive, controlled, dominated, inferior.... in their porn to in their real world.... they NEED their excuses to continue to feel like good men.

shower time... interesting direction of thought this rainy morning.

[seabeyond]

150. oh oh oh and it is so fuggin important, detrimental for women to allow men their excuses cause

without the excuse what does that say about a womans man. a man we love.

wowser.

gonna have to think about this one a little more.

[kwassa]

41. What about the female journalists sexually assaulted in Egypt?

Lara Logan of CBS, British journalist Natasha Smith, an unnamed Dutch journalist who was gang-raped, French reporter Caroline Sinz, and French reporter Sonia Dridi, Egyptian-American reporter Mona Eltahawy,

http://abcnews.go.com/US/lara-logan-hospitalized-sexually-attacked-egypt-protesters-celebration/story?id=12925235

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/26/natasha-smith-egypt_n_1628245.html

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/dutch-journalist-sexually-assaulted-by-578661

http://www.examiner.com/article/egypt-another-western-journalist-sexually-assaulted-tahrir-square

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/24/journalist-mona-eltahawy-sex-assault-cairo

[rumdude]

42. Things like this make one realize how good we have it in 'the West'...n/t

[redqueen]

68. Makes me realize how far we have to go 'all over the world'. nt

[Feral Child]

92. That's the thing, redqueen.

It happens everywhere. It's just a matter of degree, but women face intimidation everyday, everywhere.

Not to thread-jack or get off-topic, but it seems to me that the more "religious" a region is, the more women are harassed and made to fear.

[redqueen]

125. Religion is one of the strongest reinforcers of patriarchal values.

Paganism is the only exception I can think of.

[Feral Child]

134. Agreed. n/t

[seabeyond]

102. this makes one realize how prevalent this bullshit attitude is and more angry that even in the west

we still have this crap going on and angrier yet to say enough. a world where it is becoming more prevalent. watching a society where our criminal, our justice, our govt, our universities, our military are all trending to this dominant male society owning womens sexuality, just like the shifts in the middle east and everywhere else. when men are publicly getting off on rape, then no, not feeling all that bless you insist i should be feeling.

my father in law, with 20 yrs of his fuckin sick sexist jokes would say that to me. i should feel LUCKY, BLeSSED that i live in the u.s. where we treat women better than the middle east

fuckin for real? i am not treated AS BAD, so i should feel lucky? wow. no.

and for those of us living as female, any amount of subjugation, inferiority, inequality is TOO much.

[rumdude]

151. It is so much better here...

Go try living over there for awhile. Here, at least we are trying...

[Iggo]

175. Yeah. Our womenfolk should just shut up and count their blessings. Right?

[bravenak]

183. What a thoughtful thing to say.

Really.

[AtheistCrusader]

186. You literally just threw back in her face her own father in law's fucked-up argument.

What the hell

I mean, you just paraphrased what she attributed to him in that post.
Why?

[nomorenomore08]

209. Inability to see past one's own nose. A common affliction, unfortunately. n/t

[nomorenomore08]

208. Some of us are trying, at least. Others don't seem to be trying very hard.

And this "love it or leave it" bullshit is beneath us. That's the kind of rhetoric ignorant right-wingers use.

[Arugula Latte]

179. In general, yes, but

when I was in Rome when I was 19, traveling with three American friends, we got "swarmed" by large groups of young men at Trevi Fountain. It was pretty terrifying. I don' know if it is still like that in parts of Italy, but, wow, I didn't feel safe in public there at all.

[flvegan]

47. Shame on the men who didn't defend her.

"Tried to undress her" and "tried to rip the clothes off (of her)"

In my book, that's grounds for blood.

[pnwmom]

50. Since when does wearing a long yellow head scarf makes you a blonde?

[Number23]

72. It took this many posts for this to get asked? I've been sitting here wondering the exact same thing

!!!

[gollygee]

98. Really

I guess it was done to turn this into a "dark men attack light woman" story.

[Madam Mossfern]

184. Thank you!

I mentioned that she was not blonde a long while back and that considering it was a Daily Mail article, it should be taken with a grain of salt. It was inferred that I care not a whit about women's rights.

What can I say?

[Scootaloo]

101. Since the Daily Mail needed her to be a blonde for that "extra outrage"

I mean it's one thing - according to the Mail - if Arab men harass some Arab woman, who cares, they're not even human enough to think for themselves (see the posts on this very thread for more on that.) But if she's blonde - read, white - well then!

You have to understand the Daily Mail's approach to these things, I suppose.

[seabeyond]

103. not really. in this thread we have a man telling us how blessed us women should feel living in the

u.s. where inequality is not as bad.

it is so fuggin wonderful for men to decide for us women how MUCH inequality/disrespect/harassment is too much.

[Scootaloo]

110. I love that argument

Though I usually hear the race version.

"You blacks can't complain! Just think how bad you'd have it if you were still in Africa!"

it's cute how much disrespect is being thrown at this lady and pretty much all other Egyptian women on this thread as well - evidently they can't dress themselves, and their social and educational prevalence is secondary to whether western men can see their hair or not. I'm just waiting for the inevitable comparison to farm animals that always seems to come up from "progressives" talking about Muslim women.

[closeupready]

131. You've nailed it in every post in this thread. Thank you.

[pnwmom]

105. You're right -- that's probably it. nt

[Blue_Tires]

164. Yeah, I saw the

"uncivilized savages got white woman fever" subtext as well....

[Aerows]

63. I wonder what would

have happened to her had she been black?

[Lunacee_2013]

73. Wasn't there also an incident in Central Park

Last edited Wed Mar 26, 2014, 03:18 AM - Edit history (1)

a few years back where some women were assaulted and no one cared? Not even the cops gave a shit. It seems like this is something women face the world over.

It's why I carry pepper spray.

ETA: just in case anyone thinks this is a Muslim problem, or that it doesn't happen in America, there was also a case on an American college campus were some drunken frat boys went to the girls' dorms and chanted "No means yes and yes mean anal!". I've even dealt with this, on a smaller scale, thank Goddess. In high school I was chased about once every other month while walking home (saving on gas money) by full grown men, usually in pick-up trucks. These were not male students chasing me, though they (the students), would sometimes offer me a ride home, I never got in anyone's ,car. There was a lot of construction work going on at the homes around the school, so there were a lot of men around who I did not know.

The worst time I was chased they forced me to run through alleys and people's back yards until I finally managed to climb up a tree and on top of a garage roof and hide there until they went away. It was a terrorizing experience. This shit is just, I can't explain how it makes me feel. Rage-because women and girls cannot even walk outside without being harassed. Sadness-because some men think its a game. It needs to stop. Whether its in Texas or the Middle East, it needs to STOP.

[JI7]

78. before 9/11 i think, it was one of those news stories which were kind of totally forgotten

and part of the "old world" we lived in . after 9/11 stories from just a few years, months, weeks, days ago almost seemed like it was from another world.

[WinkyDink]

88. "some people had tried to undress her "?? NO. Some MEN "had tried to undress her."

[upaloopa]

106. You have your agenda don't you

[pnwmom]

108. Women weren't the offenders. Why pretend they were? n/t

[upaloopa]

112. If you hate men that's your life

I don't care. It's sad but I don't care. You could be more specific. Men are billions of people on the earth but you have your agenda.

[seabeyond]

113. making a truthful statement as opposed to a non truthful statement means winky hates men? one must

LIE in order to protect what... ego? in order not to be accused of hating men. really?

[pnwmom]

115. It's not about hating men. It's about, as you say, being specific.

People in general didn't harass this woman. A group of men did.

[upaloopa]

122. Now you are more specific

Anyone reading the story knows that.

[pnwmom]

138. The word "people" isn't as specific. When wasn't I clear? n/t

[Sheldon Cooper]

120. But you don't have an agenda at all, do you?

No siree, no agenda at all.

[gollygee]

147. Why is saying "people" not hating all people

but saying "men" is hating all men?

[redqueen]

159. Certain types see 'man hating' any time misogyny/patriarchy is discussed.

It's a right wing canard.

[nomorenomore08]

210. For the same reason any person of color who complains about even the most egregious racism

is a "reverse racist"...

[LanternWaste]

169. Conflating accuracy and agenda seems to be your agenda...

Conflating accuracy and agenda seems to be your agenda...

(six of one, half a dozen of the other... insert distinction without a difference here)

[AtheistCrusader]

188. Correcting the record? Yeah, some people have that 'agenda'.

Especially when the record is hilariously wrong. Equivocating between genders, when one was responsible says something about the editor/author of the article.

[treestar]

158. That is normal, due to built-in hormones they can't control!~

[seabeyond]

174. so we are told. ALAS, .... i am here to stand with my brothers in an afront to the caricature

being created. i am with you bro's. all the way. always. and for ever.

[Bonobo]

201. Said NO ONE on DU ever. nt

[closeupready]

211. Heterosexual men on DU scapegoat Islam for misogyny born of patriarchal

culture, both in this thread and in others, quite frequently.

The argument about hormones is a familiar one used to excuse misogyny in other situations, an excuse as dog-eared as the one about 'lack of available women'.

With thousands of members and probably millions of threads, I think your claim is likely incorrect.

[ZombieHorde]

199. Holy fucking shit.

That is really scary.