The Venn Diagram of Irrational Nonsense

[zappaman]

http://crispian-jago.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/the-venn-diagram-of-irrational-nonsense.html

[upaloopa]

1. Gee only thing left is a boring life where all

you do is sit around and complain about other people's beliefs and blame them for you misery.

[zappaman]

2. Why would that be in there?

So life is boring if you don't believe in fairy tales?
Maybe for you....if so, sorry to hear that.

[LanternWaste]

168. Religious, political, philosophical, even national fairy tales.

Religious fairy tales, political fairy tales, philosophical fairy tales, even national fairy tales based on little more than pretend red and blue lines on map. We do tend to hold some to higher standards than others though... despite all of them being figments of our imaginations that we base both our lives and our decisions on.

However, I do realize that we'll often rationalize one imaginary thing as "real" and important, and work towards increasing its influence while denigrating and trivializing another wholly imaginary thing. Heck, I imagine there are even a handful of people who pretend the imaginary doesn't affect them at all.

[Rex]

4. .

[phil89]

10. Reality is more interesting than arguments from ignorance

to explain the world we live in.

[Warren DeMontague]

11. Boring? Fuck no- that sounds like fun!

Where do I sign up?

[MNBrewer]

53. Actually, there's still things like making your own beer and cheese.

[d_r]

54. Awesome. nt

[gcomeau]

62. Yeah...

...because the entire infinite scope of the real universe and the mind bogglingly complex physical world in which we live is "boring" if you don't get to dress it up in absurd magical fairy tales

I sincerely pity you.

[upaloopa]

78. Thanks but I don't need it

What is pityful is that the only reality you know of is as a result of other people's efforts.

[LondonReign2]

82. So you make your own reality?

Where have I heard that one before?

[upaloopa]

141. I don't get what is so important about

knocking someone else's belief system if you were strong in yours it shouldn't matter

[gcomeau]

117. No... you really do.

And the fact that you're unaware of it only reinforces the point.

It's just incredibly sad.

[Orrex]

151. That's just your arrogant ignorance talking. Or your ignorant arrogance.

Or maybe it's your paradigm or something.


Wait! I'll bet it's your modality! Modality's a popular word that sounds impressive, right?

[gcomeau]

157. There must be a way to work "close minded" or "dogmatic" in there somehow.

[Springslips]

63. Yes

Because there is nothing interesting about science..

[upaloopa]

143. You said that not me.

Science is a part not the whole

[zeemike]

72. ...

[cthulu2016]

79. Y'know, the lives of crackpots aren't really all that exciting

[upaloopa]

144. Neither are the lives of the arrogant ignorant.

[Jgarrick]

80. Science is "boring"? And supernatural nonsense isn't?

Actually, given the popularity of (just as an example) astrology vs astronomy, a lot of people agree with you.

How sad.

[upaloopa]

81. What first hand knowledge of reality do you have ?

Your sight is limited as are the rest if your senses. You only accept knowledge gained by other people. So in reality your "knowledge" of science and reality is puny. Yet you feel you are equipped to judge all other belief systems. You aren't as knowledgeable as you are arrogant.

[Jgarrick]

86. I know that astronomy is legitimate science and that astrology is bullshit.

Disagree?

[cthulu2016]

92. "Other belief systems" created by people with the same limited senses.

[Jgarrick]

113. But their beliefs are based on someone's inner visions as they made themselves one with

the universe. Surely that's every bit as legitimate as thousands of scientists working in concert with peer-reviewed research using the scientific method!

[Orrex]

93. It's curious that magical thinkers like to pretend to have access to the "real" universe

Yet they come up short when asked to provide specifics, and anyone who asks for specifics is criticized as "arrogant" and "limited," with a "puny" "knowledge of science and reality."

For all practical purposes the magical thinker's "knowledge" of the universe is indistinguishable from random imaginings. I defy you to prove me incorrect.

[upaloopa]

145. What is curious is that you expect others

to defend their thinking using your paradigm. That is what I call arrogant ignorance. Besides if you were strong in your beliefs you would have no need to question the beliefs of others or to have them make a defense for your edification.

[Orrex]

146. Well, no.

Besides if you were strong in your beliefs you would have no need to question the beliefs of others or to have them make a defense for your edification.

You don't actually believe that, do you? You can't seriously think that insecurity is the only reason to oppose something, can you?

According to your argument, the motivation to fight against discrimination is based simply on one's own weak belief in equality.

Surely you see that you're offering a nonsensical argument, right?

What is curious is that you expect others to defend their thinking using your paradigm. That is what I call arrogant ignorance.

I don't care if someone personally wants to believe in magic, regardless of their preferred paradigm.

But when someone claims that their magical medical beliefs should be taken seriously (i.e., should be covered by insurance or offered at hospitals), then it's up to them to deliver the goods. They need to demonstrate that chi exists and that it works as they claim. They can't simply wave their hands and complain about paradigm prejudice.

Your attempt to dismiss this as arrogance doesn't change the fact that bullshit pseudoscience is still bullshit pseudoscience and is rightly included in the OP's diagram. It is arrogance to declare that one's claims should be taken seriously but that those claims transcend the need for independent confirmation.

And let me ask you this: how, exactly, do you assess the credibility of one bullshit pseudoscientific claim versus another? If you accept one assertion without any verifiable evidence, then what basis do you have for rejecting any claim at all? Once you have dismissed empirical evidence as a mere "paradigm," then how can you assess the reality of anything that your senses tell you?

[upaloopa]

149. Man you are blowing this way out of

proportion. Nothing in the diagram of the OP is about discrimination etc.
You want to be against descrimination fine. But don't attach all your bugaboos to the beliefs of others. You again define everything by the paradigm you see the world through. Arrogance!

[Orrex]

150. So, you can't actually back up your nonsense. Got it.

Suppose you take your car to the mechanic for an oil change and he says it's done, and afterwards you're driving down the road and the engine seizes because there's no oil in it.

Do you pursue the matter with the mechanic? Wouldn't that be an arrogant demand that he see the world through your paradigm?

Again, how do you judge a particular piece of bullshit pseudoscience to be credible while rejecting another? I have asked this question many times in many discussions, and I have never once received an answer that didn't boil down to "because it pleases me." And you don't even offer that much.


Your position is simply untenable, which is probably why you don't even try to defend it. You simply complain that others don't accept your magical beliefs as solid truth, and when they point out the nonsense of your claims, you cry that they're ignorant and arrogant.

[Vashta Nerada]

85. So it's better to peddle pseudoscientific crap and live an exciting life?

Fine. Waste your money on a chiropractor or an acupuncturist.

There's nothing "boring" about science.

[Jgarrick]

87. Sadly, many people do find science boring.

Most newspapers have an astrology section. How many have a daily astronomy column?

[snooper2]

139. And call people out on the Intertubes for bad engwish, (your misery not you misery)

[NickB79]

165. After watching a few episodes of "Cosmos"

I don't think we could ever be bored with the physical universe around us and how it functions.

From the inner workings of an individual atom, to the spiraling of entire galaxies, there is enough wonder and mystery in our world to keep a person enthralled and amazed until the last stars burn out.

I feel sorry for people who have to retreat to their own make-believe worlds when the real world, right there in front of you, has so much amazing stuff to offer.

It's like a kid with an entire forest to explore outside his doorstep choosing instead to run around a World of Warcraft game for hours on end.

[upaloopa]

166. Did you ever entertain the idea that the real world

right in front of you is not all that exists?
I believe like you the universe is wonderful but I also believe there is more and it isn't make believe or fantasy though I don't know it from my 5 senses but through experience of events and outcomes.

[NickB79]

167. Yes, and the conclusion I come to is that it's immaterial

Whether there are "worlds" that exist beyond my senses doesn't matter, because THEY ARE BEYOND MY SENSES.

I don't know it from my 5 senses but through experience of events and outcomes.

So, you can't detect what you think exists with your 5 senses, but you think they exist because of events and outcomes.

That you or someone else experienced with those same 5 senses.

[NightWatcher]

3. I love getting my back cracked and massaged at the chiro...

but aside from that, I'm on board.

[zappaman]

6. I go back and forth on chiropractors...

But I have a masseuse that does the same thing.

[madinmaryland]

22. I don't think you can get a...

happy ending at the chiropractor.

[zappaman]

24. Don't be so sure

[madinmaryland]

30. Dr. B.J. Hardick

[d_r]

55. at least he/she isn't a dentist nt

[blackspade]

60. Please...stop!

[riqster]

103. Finest chiropractor I ever came across.

[jeff47]

17. There's parts that have some basis in reality

and there's some parts that do not. They can help some musculature and skeletal issues.

There are some who claim they can "cleanse" or otherwise help overall health. That's where the bullshit comes in.

[NightWatcher]

18. as soon as my chiro goes into that stuff, my eyes roll back in my head

Just touch me so it feels good, I dont want to hear you run your mouth.

[Thor_MN]

56. Don't forget the Mega doses of Vitamins...

You are right with " They can help some musculature and skeletal issues. "

[bunnies]

105. Mega does of vitamins are actually prescribed

for people with severe vitamin deficiencies. If it had ever happened to you, you'd not be mocking it. Its no joke.

[phleshdef]

111. Yea, I had a vitamin D deficiency one time.

Had megadoses for 6 months. Came back. Got new blood work. Vitamin D was well above optimal.

[bunnies]

114. Same here.

Caused all sorts of problems. Muscle spasms, pain, etc. You know. Drives me crazy when people mock nutrition as "pseudoscience". Of all things... vitamins? Really?

[Thor_MN]

135. Seriously? You advocate that everyone take megadoses of vitamins, regardless if they need them or n

Drives me crazy when people advocate pissing money down the toilet.

[bunnies]

138. Yeah. Thats what I said.

[Thor_MN]

161. About the same as what you did to what I said.

[Thor_MN]

134. Yes, "for people with severe vitamin deficiencies."

For people without deficiencies, they won't do anything, but many Chiropractic doctors will gladly recommend them and sell them to you.

[Mojorabbit]

169. Love having my neck and back cracked also when it is in spasm

My late dog would go from stiff lameness to ease in walking after acupuncture. I guess that was a placebo effect...LOL

[Rex]

5. Psychic surgery? Does that come with a huge psychic bill?

Cause I think I have some psychic money laying around here somewhere...I will astral project my symptoms now, I wonder if there is a wait time?

[zappaman]

8. How you gonna get there?

Use a psychic car?

[Rex]

9. I have an Astral Van.

[pinboy3niner]

12. Or you can take a plane to a whole other plane

I heard it on CNN.

[Rex]

15. LOL! Are they casting for a new season of Lost on CNN?

BREAKING NEWS: CNN IS LOST.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. I prefer my Camper Van

[zappaman]

23. Seen them a few times

Always a great show and I still prefer them over CRACKER.

[Warren DeMontague]

25. I like pretty much everything Dave Lowery has done, personally.

[zappaman]

28. Don't get me wrong

nothing wrong with CRACKER, I just dig CVB a little more for whatever reason...

[Warren DeMontague]

37. Yeah, some of those old albums are great. Weird, all over the map.

Real gritty mid-late 80s underground psychedelia weirdness. I remember sitting around high as a kite listening to that stuff.

[LondonReign2]

84. +100

[lumberjack_jeff]

109. I always ask to repay in Karmic credit.

Gunga Galunga.

[Liberal Veteran]

7. Cool. Scientology is like one-stop shopping for all your bollocks needs.

[idendoit]

13. Ha! I curse your simpering diagram!

[gollygee]

16. I have friends into something called "oil pulling" lately

I think that belongs in there somewhere around homeopathy and accupuncture.

[zappaman]

21. I'll bite

WTF is oil pulling?

[gollygee]

26. It's a miracle cure for everything

http://www.foodmatters.tv/articles-1/oil-pulling-the-habit-that-can-transform-your-health

It is believed that these oils help the lymphatic system of the body as harmful bacteria are removed and beneficial microflora are given with a healthy environment to flourish. Because of this holistic perspective, oil pulling has been used as a preventative health measure for many other conditions.

Other possible benefits of oil pulling for overall health include:

• Migraine headache relief
• Correcting hormone imbalances
• Reducing inflammation of arthritis
• May help with gastro-enteritis
• Aids in the reduction of eczema
• May reduce symptoms of bronchitis
• Helps support normal kidney function
• May help reduce sinus congestion
• Some people report improved vision
• Helps reduce insomnia
• Reduced hangover after alcohol consumption
• Aids in reducing pain
• Reduces the symptoms of allergies
• Helps detoxify the body of harmful metals and organisms

[zappaman]

29. Wow!

It really does everything!
I'm on it for my hangnail!

[gollygee]

48. Yeah

I have chronic migraine headaches and I get tons of stupid suggestions from people. I think anyone with any chronic health condition hears about this stuff. "Have you tried . . . ?" And then I have to try to think of a polite way to say that swishing oil around my mouth isn't going to do anything at all.

[Ikonoklast]

120. Ear candles.

You're welcome.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. Every 30 thousand miles

recommended maintenance. Many dealerships will throw in an ear candling too.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

19. Stuff on there I never heard of,

and I'm, like, experienced at Internet browsing and all that.
Hollow Earth? Reiki? Anthroposophy and Alphabiotics?
Ear Candles? Ear Candles???!!!??? Somehow that doesn't sound safe....

[Scootaloo]

34. It's not!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ear_candling

The best part is that someone had to dream all this shit up

[Benton D Struckcheon]

43. Good point.

Who comes up with this stuff? Yikes...

[Aerows]

50. I didn't see this earlier when I asked the same question

I thought it was candles made of ear wax. Not that this ... whatever this nonsense is ... is any better, but at least it wasn't as gross as I feared (though it is pretty damn gross).

Who sits around coming up with ways to make money by shoving candles in people's ears? Nothing surprises me anymore. I guess the next big thing will be ayuverdic fart burning for health, stability and wellness. Or maybe peeing in your own food to recover lost nutrients.

[longship]

20. Bah! DU is just a collection of suppressive persons.

The Church will defeat you all. Tom Cruise will jump on couches, many many couches.

And Xenu will come back, eventually (hopefully before Zarquon at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe). But he has many space ready DC-8s and many volcanos for the unwashed.

Tom Cruise told me so. You will see.

ARRRRGH! Mumphligle! Scorchestew! Mortapror!!!!

[Vashta Nerada]

27. Excellent Venn diagram.

Everything in there is all crap, with Scientology encompassing everything that's crap.

[Flying Squirrel]

31. I don't know what "Cupping" is

but I firmly believe in it (at least when it comes to certain body parts.)

However, as a karaoke host, I am firmly against it when it comes to microphones.

[zappaman]

33. Hmmm

[Jgarrick]

32. In the same vein...I give you the Periodic Table of Irrational Nonsense.

[AverageJoe90]

45. If only there was room for ontological materialism.....

Good chart otherwise. Just not perfect.

[LostOne4Ever]

47. Seems to be missing the alternative medicine section (nt)

[SidDithers]

35. That's a whole lotta bollocks!...nt

Sid

[Aerows]

36. What the hell

is an ear candle? Please don't tell me it is something gross like candles made of ear wax.

[pinboy3niner]

39. Don't give them any ideas!

[Aerows]

49. LOL!

Ewww.

[Eleanors38]

148. Light candle, look through opposite ear for light: All is in alignment.

Oooom.

[Aerows]

156. Ewww

I'm pretty open minded, but that's just plain weird.

[Nye Bevan]

38. "Angel therapy" is a thing?

I bet my United Healthcare policy wouldn't cover that.

[Jgarrick]

88. "Angel therapy" gets 384,000 hits on Google.

[Nye Bevan]

41. Speaking of Venn diagrams, here's another good one:

[byronius]

42. Teabaggery's floating around in bits there somewhere.

Perhaps it's not logical enough to appear as a coherent listing on this chart.

[AverageJoe90]

44. Crispian forgot one thing.....ontological materialism.

It's one of the most pseudo-scientific non-religious theories out there. Very few other things like it come even close.

(Oh, and P.S. out-of-body experiences aren't really pseudo-scientific, btw. They just can't be fully explained by current science yet.)

[mathematic]

68. Using "ontological" like people don't know you mean "scientific materialism"

Ontology means the study of the nature of reality. The use of "ontological" here is to distinguish the word "materialism" from its uses in other contexts, such as economics. The most popular and relevant form of (ontological) materialism is scientific materialism.

Materialism is a philosophical idea and it is not pseudo-science or irrational and I have no idea why you think it's either. Perhaps you're hanging out around too many highly religious science skeptics.

[AverageJoe90]

75. "Perhaps you're hanging out around too many highly religious science skeptics." To be honest: nope.

BTW, my main gripe with ontological materialists such as Richard Dawkins is that they take way too much of a hardline and they dismiss anything that doesn't fit into their worldview as psychobabble or whatever, even if said material has some compelling evidence.

I do not, however, have an issue with methodological materialists, who tend to be *true* skeptics and more open-minded. I do believe the good Dr. Neil Tyson falls into the latter.

[Orrex]

99. You're mischaracterizing Dawkins' position

my main gripe with ontological materialists such as Richard Dawkins is that they take way too much of a hardline and they dismiss anything that doesn't fit into their worldview as psychobabble or whatever, even if said material has some compelling evidence.

It's not that he dismisses claims that contradict his "worldview." Instead, he rejects claims that are either impossible by definition and/or claims for which there is no empirical evidence.

Many magical thinkers dismiss the value of empirical observation when it suits their convenience, instead deferring to intuition or belief. But they're happy to embrace the fruits of "ontological materialism" when they need their cellphone or a tetanus shot.

[AverageJoe90]

132. Not at all, I'm afraid.

BTW, I might have agreed with you a few years ago; I don't now.

[longship]

71. Out-of-body experiences are entirely neurological.

And are entirely explainable by neuroscience.

Here:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-skeptics-guide-to-the-mind/

Ones experience is what the brain does. When the brain stops functioning in some way, one can experience any number of effects, none of which can be demonstrated to be outside the brain's function, or its dysfunction. Out of body experiences can be reliably generated in the laboratory using any number of simple procedures.

To claim that they are some magical thing, an effect of an after life (or some sort of other thing) is utter bollocks.

[AverageJoe90]

74. "To claim that they are some magical thing" I don't, TBH.

But I will say that while I am open to the possibility that some NDEs can indeed be (possibly) explained by more materialistic means.....there is some convincing evidence that seems to point to something more that we don't currently understand.

Personally, I think it's possible that one day, science may be able to truly understand how this works.....it's just that our current understanding is still a bit deficient. And I don't believe it requires a deity of any kind to be possible, either(though I do lean towards quantum physics myself).

Here is some stuff you may find interesting:

http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html

In any case, it's up to you what you do with this, and to be fair, I don't find myself agreeing 100% with some of these folks. But they do have interesting things to say.

[longship]

77. Nope. OBEs are understood.

Neurologists can repeatedly reproduce OBEs using either drugs or brain stimulation.

That, in itself, says that there is no mystery. Check out the link at my post above.

And here are two on near death experiences, again entirely neurological.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/near-death-experiences-and-the-medical-literature/

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/nde-update/

That's what the science says.

[AverageJoe90]

133. "That's what the science says." Not quite, TBH.

That's what the accepted belief is, currently, that all NDEs are nothing more than brain chemistry. There is, however, evidence that says otherwise, as I've shown. The orthodoxy may take a long time to come to terms with this(but then again, this has also been true for other things as well; the equality of the "races" is perhaps the best example; such had been known since at least the late 19th century, but it wasn't until the 1950s that the facts were finally universally accepted amongst scientists. Personal bias can be quite a powerful thing, even if you've got a PhD.), but sooner or later, the truth will come out(unless, of course, the GOP manages to pull the plug on this country's scientific research altogether).

Again, go back to the link I showed you.

[MerryBlooms]

46. And, there's no shortage of grifters making big $$$ off all that shit. n/t

[HughBeaumont]

51. I'd think "Trickle Down Economics" falls under the "Religious" and "Pseudoscientific" crescent.

[morningfog]

52. Nicely done. A lot of work, and thought, went into mapping the nonsense.

Kind of ironic.

[zappaman]

73. They left out Area 51

And ancient aliens and the Bermuda Triangle.

[Curmudgeoness]

57. Where's the evil eye?

Or pulling evil spirits out of the body with eggs?

I guess you had to live in a Mexican ghetto for a while to hear about these things.

[RobertEarl]

66. Oh, my mistake

I thought you were going to talk about the eye on the back of the dollar bill.

Y'kno the dollar bill that nearly everyone, including zappaman, has the utmost belief in. Hell most people trade 40 hours a week for a coupla of those eye dollars. How f'n crazy is that in light of this thread?

[Curmudgeoness]

67. Well, there's that too.

Wonder where that is on the graphic.

But as to the evil eye that I am referring to, if you ever compliment a Latino baby, or the flowers in a vase at their house, you had better touch the child or flowers, or they will freak out.

[zappaman]

69. Yes, I believe the dollar bill exists.

No, working for a living is not as crazy as anything in that diagram.
Try again.

[Ferretherder]

58. I feel this way about it.

Listen to the lyrics.

[rickyhall]

59. Science is not on that map

Guess we could do that, huh, Dr. Tyson?

[RedCappedBandit]

65. Of course it isn't. It's a diagram of irrational nonsense.

How would science fit?

[Vashta Nerada]

83. And why would it be?

Science has evidence. Everything on that Venn diagram is nonsense.

[obxhead]

61. I've had excellent results using dowsing rods.

I've located irrigation lines and other random objects using them.

Luck? Maybe.

All I know is I found what I was looking for using them.

[jberryhill]

76. Dowsing rods are good for finding "random objects"

Because that's pretty much how they work. Randomly.

[whatchamacallit]

64. Where's your reviled 9/11 skepticism zappaman?

Hmm... maybe not universally regarded as irrational nonsense?

[zappaman]

70. Dunno.

But I agree it should be there.
My guess is the author probably forgot about the bullshit truthers.
Everyone else sure has.

[whatchamacallit]

119. Uh huh...

[zappaman]

124. Here ya go, my friend.

Happy now?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4729712

[whatchamacallit]

126. I have many things to be happy about

Your smug, safe, and lazy intransigence isn't among them.

[zappaman]

128. You're welcome!

[Bonx]

89. Excellent resource. Thanks ! -nt

[Blue_Tires]

90. Karma is bollocks?

my life has been a lie...

I have been meaning to make a sports-related diagram like this...it would have to be larger, though...

[Jgarrick]

96. Of course it is. Just ask Joseph Stalin or Mao Zedong.

Oh, wait...you can't. They both died peacefully in their beds after living a life of luxury compared to their subjects, whom they both murdered by the millions.

[Berlum]

91. The Venn-like Diagram of Rational Limitation, Fail & Nonsense

Specially presented for folks who cannot cope with and thus dismiss and disparage half of the universe.

[G_j]

94. +1

[Berlum]

98. Thanks G-j.

[zappaman]

106. Well, we know where you fall on the spectrum

based on why you were previously banned...

[Berlum]

110. Yup. On the healthy Whole of it.

My sincere condolences to you on your tragic limitations.

[Orrex]

116. Your feel-good clipart postings have inspired me to abandon science and reason

[G_j]

95. nothing from western medicine?

well that says a lot

[Orrex]

100. It says that western (that is, *actual*) medicine is based in science

Rather than relying on a belief in magic and unverifiable hocus-pocus.

[G_j]

104. I suppose you are fortunate to have such faith in it.

we are so superior aren't we?

[Orrex]

107. I work very hard to have faith in as little as possible.

If you can demonstrate something that provides a better and more consistently reliable system for explaining the functioning of the universe, then I will abandon science in favor of the system that you propose.

It's not a statement of faith at all. Quite the opposite, in fact. Why is this so hard to understand?

[G_j]

108. it depends on what passes for science

for example, I don't really trust the "science" that pharmaceutical companies often use to push their wares.

[Orrex]

112. That's not science; that's misrepresentation of data.

To reject science as a method of understanding simply because you object to an industry's efforts at self-promotion is to fail to understand what science is.

[G_j]

121. I love science

I'm a big fan. Then you might admit then that the "science" of western medicine is often tainted by the influence of money.
I just think there are lot of western medicine practices that could be included on this chart.

[Orrex]

122. Which practices of western medicine should be included in the chart?

Please be specific.

[G_j]

125. caesarean deliveries? where does science and the use of it part ways?

There are plenty of examples of unnecessary procedures and drugs wrongly prescribed. Is the problem that doctors aren't scientists?
IMO, the chart is culturally biased, while including acupuncture, shiatsu and ayurvedic medicine, never mentioning, just for example, the nonsense of prescribing antidepressants for children.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/20/nation/la-na-medical-procedures-20130221
Doctors list overused medical treatments

WASHINGTON — Nearly 100 medical procedures, tests and therapies are overused and often unnecessary, a coalition of leading medical societies says in a new report aimed at improving healthcare and controlling runaway costs.

The medical interventions — including early caesarean deliveries, CT scans for head injuries in children and annual Pap tests for middle-aged women — may be necessary in some cases, the physician groups said. But often they are not beneficial and may even cause harm
--
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/22/medication-bad-prescription-drugs-wrong-abuse_n_1822775.html

Medications Are 'Inappropriately' Prescribed To 1 In 5 Seniors: Study

````````
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20736391
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23701973

[Orrex]

129. A couple of points.

There certainly does seem to be an over-reliance on delivery by caesarean section, though I know quite a few women for whom it was necessary. The technique itself is valid and often justified, but if prescribed without real justification, then it's likely being misused. But that's misuse of an actual medical technique, rather than claiming that a magical belief system is science. The same is true of over-prescription of drugs; it's a misuse of an actual medical substance, and it's very different from claiming that copper bracelets cure arthritis (for example).

IMO, the chart is culturally biased, while including acupuncture, shiatsu and ayurvedic medicine, never mentioning, just for example, the nonsense of prescribing antidepressants for children.

That's a very questionable comparison. Acupuncture and shiatsu claim to manipulate the flow of chi, when chi has never been shown to exist. Not once, not ever. Similarly, ayurvedic medicine depends on medieval notions of "fundamental elements" which likewise have not been shown to exist. These are belief systems that may occasionally overlap with medicine, but in so far as they rely on mystical energy, they are pseudoscience and are rightly included on the list. Let these techniques demonstrate their efficacy under controlled conditions. If they can't meet that standard, then too bad for them.

That's not a cultural bias, either. If I claimed that I can heal people with Orgone energy--an invention of western culture--I would be required to demonstrate that this mystical energy exists and works as described.

[G_j]

130. I take your points

Last edited Wed Mar 26, 2014, 05:51 PM - Edit history (1)

Perhaps my problem is that this chart is arrogant in it's use of terms like "bollucks" etc. I really don't believe most real scientists generally spend their time in clever ridicule.
The people who conquered the American Indian tribes also called their practices "nonsense". They weren't scientists either.

[progressoid]

97. That's intollerant!

And bigoted against my firmly held belief that rhino horn dust will give me a stiffy.

[Orrex]

101. Personally, I'm just glad to see a rekindling of the Woo Wars.

[Union Scribe]

102. Also irrational:

Love
Poetry
Make-believe
Trashing people online
etc etc.

Some of those things are more harmful than others, and some aren't harmful at all. The purpose of including many of those things is more about the superiority complex of its author than anything else. The truth is that there is much irrationality in all human lives and it isn't always something to be condemned on par with anti-vaccination dogma. Anyone who thinks otherwise is being...irrational.

[bunnies]

115. +1 nt

[whatchamacallit]

127. Awesome!

[GliderGuider]

159. I'd add economics, politics and social psychology... nt

[Not a Fan]

118. Another version

[zappaman]

123. Wow!

Much better!

[etherealtruth]

137. Excellent! thank you! n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

158. LOL! The Smurfs?!?

Well, I'll be a smurfing smurf! My smurf is totally smurfed!

[Gothmog]

131. Very interesting

[Sarah Ibarruri]

136. I hesitantly K&R this. I'd remove a chunk of that - acupuncture and Ayurvedic med helped me

A lot!

[KittyWampus]

140. For starters- that Karma is on there shows the utter stupidity of the person making the diagram.

Karma literally means "Action". It refers to cause and effect. Throw a ball against a wall and it bounces back at you.

It does not mean vengeance.

[Orrex]

142. That's one definition of karma.

If you ask 100 random people on the street in any random city in the US, they'll probably tell you something to the effect that karma means either "what goes around comes around" or "you get what's coming to you."

In the context of what this diagram is addressing, the overwhelmingly predominant usage of the term "karma" means "if you do bad shit to people, the universe will make sure that bad shit happens to you in return."

We know you to be concerned with accuracy and fairness above all else. Therefore, if this use of "karma" offends your preferred definition, then you will presumably also take issue with alt-med advocates who grossly abuse the term "energy" when describing Reiki and other similar nonsense.

[Jgarrick]

152. Actually, the improper use of the word "energy" does annoy me.

I was once dragged to a Psychic Fair, and when one of the con artists practitioners started telling me about the "energy" of my aura, I inquired as to the nature of it...was it electromagnetic in nature, or was a different force involved such as gravity or perhaps the weak or strong nuclear force?

After getting a deer in the headlights look, they quickly mumbled a few incoherent phrases and looked around for a sucker paying customer.

[Orrex]

154. Shame on you for forcing them to adopt your paradigm

Next, you'll probably question their modality.


Shame!

[Jgarrick]

155. I hang my head...

[KittyWampus]

163. No- that's the definition. It's a Sanskrit word.

[Orrex]

164. No, that's the origin.

It's preposterous to insist that a word can only mean what it meant thousands of years ago.

[Orrex]

162. Here's another person for you to call stupid

Perhaps you can run on over to YouTube and lecture her about your proper definition of karma.

[ismnotwasm]

147. Ear candles?

Never mind-- I don't even want to know.

[zappaman]

153. Too late

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ear_candling

The performance involves laying the victim "patient" on their side, and burning a special hollow candle over their ear canal. The heat is supposed to draw the impurities from the ear out of the canal and onto the base of the candle. When visible residue is seen at the base of the candle after the process the practitioner and wooee assume that wax was removed from the ear canal by some sort of quantum warm air currents.[1] This residue is, of course, simply burnt wax from the candle that has run down the inside.

While one might think "it's harmless and cheap, so who cares?", the procedure comes with potential downsides - the most obvious is that hot wax from the candle might drip into the ear, burning the victim patient. There are also all the usual hazards associated with playing with fire indoors.[2] There is no need for an alternative method to removing excess cerumen buildups. You can break down cerumen by using oil - commercial ear wax removal oils typically use peanut oil, although any vegetable oil will do the job. If you have a large deposit that isn't shifting, you can typically have it pumped out in a few minutes by a nurse. You very rarely need surgery for this, and that's only if they've tried pumping it out already. Talk to your doctor.

It is also claimed to remove "toxins" from the body by sucking them out with the warm air current. These "toxins" inevitably set off the smoke detector, so if you hear the smoke detector going off during ear candling, you know it's working!

[GliderGuider]

160. The phrase "acculturated groupthink" comes to mind.