General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIs the name "Washington Redskins" in any way insulting, derogatory or offensive?
43 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited | |
Yes it is and I am Native American | |
6 (14%) |
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Yes it is and I am not Native American | |
34 (79%) |
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No it is not and I am Native American | |
0 (0%) |
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No it is not and I am not Native American | |
3 (7%) |
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2 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided. | |
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll |
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)But what about "Chiefs", "Braves" and "Indians"?
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Similar to "Vikings", "Trojans", "Spartans", "Cavaliers", "Warriors", etc.
When I think of "Braves" I don't picture a caricature, I think of the Apache or Kiowa who were some very impressive warriors.
"Redskins" is way over the line, because it was a slur applied to our enemies.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Last edited Wed Mar 26, 2014, 12:59 PM - Edit history (1)
Noam Chomsky
We still name our military helicopter gunships after victims of genocide. Nobody bats an eyelash about that: Blackhawk. Apache. And Comanche. If the Luftwaffe named its military helicopters Jew and Gypsy, I suppose people would notice.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)we weren't trying to cause offense. I can see how it can be taken as offensive.
our logo wasn't a cartoon like the Cleveland Indians, it was a badass lookin dude.
at any rate, we're the Spartan's now, I think.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)I understand that nobody meant to cause offense, but the word is just plain wrong.
I don't know if they still do it, but the Illini of the University of Illinois used to have a guy dressed in faux Native American gear, and he would do this ridiculous "Indian Dance" on the sidelines. Just basically hopping around and waving his arms. Dance is sacred to most Native Americans, and it forms a significant part of their religious observances.
Maybe no offense was intended, but if you're a Native American, it would be pretty hard to watch that and not take offense.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)best things changed
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)Years and years and years ago -- during the heyday of southern rock and in a drunken stupor -- I let a friend place a Confederate flag decal on the guitar. To this day I'm not sure how to get it off without damaging the finish. So that guitar sort of sits in the back room and doesn't get played very much.
But back then, at least for us middle class white kids, Confederate flag was sort of like the Jolly Roger. All rebellion and hell-raising and Lynyrd Skynyrd. I'm older and slightly wiser, these days.
But seriously -- how do you get something like that off without ruining it?!
dionysus
(26,467 posts)use a pick to gently scrape the main layer of sticker off (go gentle! don't dent the wood! if it's electric, you won't worry that much vs an acoustic), then use guitar polish and a soft rag, keep wiping at the residue till it's gone...
Response to Jeff In Milwaukee (Reply #5)
CFLDem This message was self-deleted by its author.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)The dance appears to have been created by non Native American students (who drew upon their experiences as Eagle Scouts) and the tribal council of the Peoria Tribes of Oklahoma (the last living relatives of the Illini Federation) officially voted to request that the University of Illinois stop using Chief Illiniwek as their mascot.
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)Thank you.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I mean, you can read and watch interviews with people offended by it if you want to see how and why they're offended. It's not exactly a secret cabal of Freemasons or anything; it's a public pressure campaign supported by pretty much all of the Indian nations and discussed publicly by Native American activists pretty regularly.
at any rate, we're the Spartan's now, I think.
And if the Lacedaemonian Anti-Defamation League (or, more likely, the Helot Liberation Front) mounted a nationwide campaign saying the name was offensive to them, that might be a sign that the name should be changed, no?
SQUEE
(1,315 posts)or was it the Loaconic Peoples front?
flvegan
(64,552 posts)EVERYthing is in some way insulting, derogatory or offensive to someone.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)flvegan
(64,552 posts)What?
You asked if this was that. This is that...to someone. Therefore, it is offensive by default.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)pipi_k
(21,020 posts)some insulting and (IMO) derogatory terms are still in gleeful use
Like the word "boobs" referring to a woman's breasts.
It makes me gag. I absolutely hate hearing it.
No...they are NOT fucking BOOBS.
They are BREASTS.
Adult women have breasts, thankyouverymuch.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)pipi_k
(21,020 posts)it seems that men don't mind their breasts being called "manboobs"
Or "moobs" for short.
Or maybe they do mind...I don't know.
But, as a woman, I find it derogatory and offensive to call them "boobs" when they belong to a woman
Yet, as I said, people use that term with absolute glee.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)You are over-generalizing.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)That's an interesting, subjective and unsupported allegation...
npk
(3,701 posts)And I am not even sure the NFL can do that. But I hope Snyder changes his mind, but after his latest letter I am not very optimistic.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Oh, right...
otohara
(24,135 posts)would never be tolerated.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)technotwit
(71 posts)Yes, I would be offended to have "Washington" in my team's name.
TheKentuckian
(25,760 posts)What say us on the San Francisco Yellow Skins?
How about the Birmingham Black Skins?
Hell, even the Boise White Skins?
Meh...seems a bridge too far to me.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Now, personally, I like the name "DC Bullets" (I think it would even be a good replacement for "Washington Redskins" , but when DC was suffering from a gun violence epidemic, Pollin just said "I'm changing the name (oh, and I'm also moving them to the stadium you just developed for my hockey team)". Oddly enough, the tipping point for Pollin seems to have been Rabin's assassination. But anyways, there was a little grumbling, as always, but there wasn't remotely the kind of pushback people see about the Redskins.
TheKentuckian
(25,760 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)pintobean
(18,101 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,760 posts)I don't think that the 'Fighting Crackers' or 'fighting Honkies' would go over well.
Redskins is the equivalent of those.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I bring that up because he's shown time and time again that as long as the franchise remains a cash cow, he won't even do basic stuff like competently run a football team, let alone address social concerns about the name. Hell, this is the man who manages to lose money on a water park. How do you manage to do that?
Anyways, I hate to keep beating this dead horse, but a lot of people miss the history of the name. So, a rundown:
In 1932, some investors in Boston got together the money to buy the Newark Tornadoes, a defunct football team. They made a revenue sharing deal with the oldest baseball team in Boston, the Boston Braves, to use their stadium (it's now the soccer field in Boston University's west campus, though I think they may be building a dorm there now). As was the common practice then, they named the football team after the much more popular baseball team (see the New York Giants), in the hopes that baseball could add some visibility to the relatively unknown sport "gridiron foot ball".
In (this is from memory, so I may be off by a few years) 1934, professional racist and vicious scumbag George Preston Marshall -- a man who ended up leaving his fortune in his will to charity in 1970 with the stipulation that it could be used for no causes that involve racial integration -- bought the team. He tried to negotiate a better deal with the baseball Braves, failed, and decided to move the team instead to play with an upstart new baseball franchise in Boston, the "Red Sox" (ironically, named after a black team from Norfolk, VA). Since the "Braves" tie-in didn't make any more sense, but they didn't want to find a new logo, they chose "Redskins". It had nothing to do with a batting coach of alleged Cherokee origin (he wasn't). It had nothing to do with "honoring" anybody. It didn't even have anything intentionally to do with insulting anyone. It was a marketing decision, plain and simple, to tie in with the more established team to help sell merchandising. When the team left for DC in 1936 (and it's pretty well established this was Marshall's plan all along, despite his assurances to the contrary to Boston -- some aspects of professional sports never change), they kept the name (despite the fact that the Senators -- now the Minnesota Twins, not the Senators who are now the Texas Rangers -- were as established a brand as the Red Socks were).
I want to make this clear because proponents of the name seem to keep skipping this fact:
The name "Redskins" was chosen to capitalize on a stadium leasing relationship that has been defunct for almost 80 years at this point. Nothing more.
The name was not chosen as any sort of tie-in with the Dallas Cowboys -- the Dallas franchise wouldn't exist for another 30 years. But if it was changed for marketing reasons once, there's absolutely no reason it shouldn't be changed for marketing reasons again.
Now, personally I'd like to see the team named the Tornadoes again, just for the closure of the thing. Failing that, if we assume the Cowboys-Redskins rivalry has to stay marketable, there's nothing wrong with the Bandits, particularly given the Beltway aspect. For that matter, I always liked the name "DC Bullets" (they're now the much-pitied Washington Wizards of the NBA), but I know that would bother a lot of people. But it would still have a "Cowboys" tie-in.
But for that matter, why should the rivalry be reflected in the names? There's nothing in the names of the Eagles and Giants that makes it a rivalry. There's nothing in the name "Bills" that makes the team its own greatest enemy. Dallas and Washington will still be middling teams of the NFC who will generally fight each other for playoff berths. The rivalry is in the standings, not the names. And while we're on that subject, why should the NFL keep letting that be the biggest rivalry in the game? That sucks a lot of oxygen out of the rest of the NFC, and for that matter the AFC too. If they had more flexibility in promoting grudge matches, the league as a whole would win. But that kind of thinking rarely gets far in the leagues.
Anyways, this is just kind of my stump rant about the team. It's name should change. More and more news organizations should be pressured into referring to them as "Washington's football franchise" (there's motion that way in the Post -- that would be a huge win). Change the name. And then, for God's sake, stop overpaying for quarterbacks and recruit an offensive line to protect the ones you have.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Blackskins, or Slanteyes... there'd be no argument. Yes, Redskins is offensive. Chiefs and Indians a bit more debateable. FSU Seminoles fine, and they even have the blessing from the tribe.
Response to CreekDog (Original post)
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defacto7
(13,485 posts)"Oklahoma" is a Chickasaw word for red face or red skin.
It's always bugged me. I'm Cherokee on both sides 3 generations back and Blackfoot on one side about 5 generations back. I don't claim native status but I made my vote as Native American... just because.
Behind the Aegis
(54,727 posts)"Oklahoma" means "red people" not "face" or "skin" and it is a Choctaw word. Now, one thing I didn't know was that Chickasaw is sometimes considered a dialect of Choctaw, but most linguists have determined it is a separate language.
I am only 1/8th (or 1/16th) Cherokee.
eridani
(51,907 posts)Just like "Squareheads" would be offensive even though "Vikings" is not.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I can't offer an opinion until I know that critical piece of information.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)bullwinkle428
(20,639 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)then I agree.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)needs to be changed. He has discarded the offensive name and his team will now be known as the Maryland Redskins.
bluedigger
(17,137 posts)Not so much to others. I live in "Indian Country" and interact with many (Ute and Navajo, mostly) daily. I see a surprising number of them wearing Redskins hats and jerseys, given our distance from Washington. They don't seem to be particularly shunned or ostracized by other members of their group. I don't see many wearing Cowboys gear, though. That's more a Mexican thing. Go figure.
ok_cpu
(2,136 posts)I know they are using him less, but your picture is an excellent illustration of why he should go.
I don't think "Indians" is the same as "Redskins" and believe the Washington DC NFL team should change its name.
MADem
(135,425 posts)To this....
pansypoo53219
(21,574 posts)indians no. chief yahoo YES. marquette warriors? mmm, well, catholics?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)It's a racist epithet, and always has been. The only exception is in those instances of Indians seeking to "reclaim" the word - of course the very attempt to reclaim underlines that it is an offensive term.
That this is even a question is simply baffling, and tells me that there are people out there who still think Indians are make-believe or something.
Proud Public Servant
(2,097 posts)Redskin, he learned, had not emerged first in English or any European language. The English term, in fact, derived from Native American phrases involving the color red in combination with terms for flesh, skin, and man. These phrases were part of a racial vocabulary that Indians often used to designate themselves in opposition to others whom they (like the Europeans) called black, white, and so on.
But the language into which those terms for Indians were first translated was French. The tribes among whom the proto forms of redskin first appeared lived in the area of the upper Mississippi River called Illinois country. Their extensive contact with French-speaking colonists, before the French pulled out of North America, led to these phrases being translated, in the 1760s, more or less literally as peau-rouge and only then into English as redskin. It bears mentioning that many such translators were mixed-blood Indians.
Half a century later, redskin began circulating. It was used at the White House when President Madison requested that various Indian tribes steer clear of an alliance with Britain. No Ears, a chief of the Little Osages, spoke in reply and one of his statements was translated as, "I know the manners of the whites and the red skins." Only in 2004, however, when the Papers of James Madison project at the University of Virginia reached the year 1812 did this and another use of redskin from the same meeting come to light.
The word became even more well known when the Meskwaki chief Black Thunder delivered a speech at a treaty conference after the War of 1812. Black Thunder, whose words were translated by an interpreter, said that he would speak calmly and without fear, adding, "I turn to all, red skins and white skins, and challenge an accusation against me."
So if the term is Indian in origin, was a means of self-description, and was used by chiefs on important ceremonial occasions, is it still offensive?
Iggo
(48,160 posts)It's amazing thinking people keep asking this question.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Notre Dame offends some (usually far-removed) people of Irish descent. Minnesota likewise for usually similar scions of Scandinavia. Does Redskins offend more or less of the eponymous demographic? Hard to say. How many is enough? Only one decent survey done showed vast majority not bothered, but obviously some native groups are indeed offended.
There are a couple of potential approaches, both sensible and both problematic.
1) Go with the majority. Until a decent poll shows 50%+ offended, no reason to change. Democratic and reasonable. Problem there is you offend anything from a few affected people to 49.9% of them.
2) Change if you offend anyone with enough backing to make their complaints known. Sensitive and safe. Problem there is it's nigh impossible to find a name that evokes any emotion that excludes any offense to all. Some even object to animal nicknames.
An analogous point here is in what to call black people in America. The word I just used may offend some. It's obviously false for a start, even for full blood Masai, and the word has negative loading that predates blacks in America and has continued since. But African American offends those who feel no kinship to Africa and abjure implications of divided loyalty, as well as being fuzzy in regard to first generation immigrants from Africa who are not of the same ethnic group. I use it based on siilar polls that showed a plurality if not majority of blacks prefer it. If I use the same standard for the team, I'd have to support the majority who see it as no issue. It's not a word I use myself or would choose myself for a team though.
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/10/08/how-many-native-americans-think-redskins-is-a-slur/
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)or just everybody?
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)While it's both true and appropriate that many people take offense on behalf of others, the people who are actually the target of the offense, or even the potential offense, should surely be given far greater weight in determining acceptability.
Iggo
(48,160 posts)If I'm pointing at a racist, it doesn't matter what color I am.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)it said the same thing. However I don't think it's unreasonable to believe Indians have more credibility than Anglos on issues of what is offensive to Indians. Do you disagree?
Almost 90% of Indians surveyed said they were not offended. Do you think a similar random survey of non-Indians would show a significantly greater degree of offense? If it did indeed show that would that be more or less applicable to whether the name is offensive?
Iggo
(48,160 posts)I'm offended by racism, no matter who's the perpetrator or who's the target.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)It's fine to be offended by any bias, but I, and I doubt I'm alone, pay more attention to the opinion of gay folks about what is homophobic, minority races about what is racist, women about what is sexist and Jews about what is anti-semitic. I may, indeed certainly do, have my own opinions on each front, but I'm not going to pretend my opinion is as informed and as meaningful as the targets of that bias.
Interestingly enough, this poll, which is of course terribly invalid for many reasons, has a relevant facet if taken at face value . It seems that Indians here currently find it offensive by a 2 to 1 margin (as opposed to the 1 to 8 ratio in a more professionally constructed survey amongst the wider Indian population, which makes sense as a self-selected progressive group is more likely to bristle at racial insensitivity than the populace as a whole) yet non-Indians here go for offensive by a 10 to 1 margin. Relatively speaking then a DU non-NA is five times more likely to find the term offensive than a DU NA is. I genuinely wonder why. I'm certainly curious if this is typical or not. Do DU gentiles get offended five times more readily at anti-semitic terms than DU Jews? Straights here more than gays find homophobia offensive?
treestar
(82,383 posts)pipi_k
(21,020 posts)Native American counts here?
I have some NA, going back to a ggg grandmother (Canadian First Nations)
If I say I find it offensive, is that "proof" of something?
If I say I don't find it (personally) offensive, does that mean I'm an insensitive asshole?
I think the bottom line is, there are always going to be words/terms that will offend someone.
Response to pipi_k (Reply #41)
CreekDog This message was self-deleted by its author.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)don't ask me to help you rationalize.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)I can "do my own work" on.
I'm asking YOU, since YOU posted the poll.
Obviously, you have some sort of agenda in mind here, so I'm asking you the question.
In your opinion, how much NA ancestry/DNA is allowed in order for a person not to be considered an insufferable asshole because he or she doesn't find the term "redskin" to be offensive?
Or maybe 100% Native American DNA isn't enough, is that it?
Would a 100% Native American be too...naive? Too...stupid? to know what should offend him?
Really...has anyone here actually asked a Native American person if he finds "redskins" offensive, and, after being told that no, the person didn't find it offensive, has anyone looked at that Native American person and said he was WRONG for not finding it offensive?
That, in itself, is pretty offensive too.
And I find that just as asinine as someone coming to me, a person of French/Canadian ancestry and telling me that I should be offended by a host of ethnic slurs for the French.
Especially if the person allegedly "sticking up for" me isn't even of French ethnicity.
So, in classic arrogant asshole fashion, the hallmark of being a "true Frenchman", I will shrug and say "Meh". Refer to my heritage any way (the collective) you want to.
And while I don't personally find the term "redskin" offensive, that doesn't mean I wouldn't understand if Native Americans DO find it offensive. It's their right.
But white people don't have the right to run around telling others what they should, or should not, find derogatory or offensive about that term.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)than if the name actually offends people.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)you got from my post?
Seriously?
First, I never SAID I was more offended about being asked the question than about whether the name actually offends someone.
What I find offensive is when someone not in the target group takes it upon him/her self to be offended FOR someone else, and then runs around saying in an oblique way that anyone who doesn't find the word or term offensive is some kind of filthy racist.
What about that handful of Native Americans in the poll who said they aren't offended by the term?
Are they filthy racists too?
Or are they too stupid (by your standards?) to know they should be offended?
I also find polls of this nature to be offensive AND divisive.
As the saying goes, I was born at night, but not last night.
Some polls are done to get information with no set agenda in mind.
and then other polls...like this one...seem to be started in order to judge who's a "good" DUer and who's a "bad" DUer, depending on the "correct" answer.
So unless you can say with all honesty that people who don't find the name "Redskins" offensive are not racist assholes, then it's pretty plain what the purpose of this poll is.
Post poll. Wait for people to vote. Look at names. All "good" DUers chose Yes. All "bad" DUers chose no. And maybe even people who didn't make a yes or no vote are "bad" DUers as well, since they obviously didn't have the honor to choose the correct answer, right?
Alrighty, then...got it loud and clear.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)pipi_k
(21,020 posts)is NOT what I find offensive, above the issue itself. Nice try, though.
Again. Polls like this are offensive and divisive. They are done with an agenda in mind, and that agenda is a part of what can make DU suck.
Answer the question the "correct" way and you're a "good DUer" Answer the "wrong" way and you're a dirty piece of shit. That's it, right?
I'd like an answer to the question I asked you, BTW.
Are you posting this just for general information (and if so, what information are you hoping to get), with the understanding that anyone responding with a "no" is not a racist asshole?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)you keep saying you aren't offended at being asked, you've been asked twice, nobody is requiring you to answer, it is voluntary, but you're pissed off that I even asked in a poll where many many here were happy to answer, voluntarily.
and you're pissed at being asked. why?
because your answer is unpopular and you think it will reflect badly on you.
well your answer is unpopular and whether i agree or not, it will reflect badly on you.
grow up and either take the criticism of holding an unpopular position or remain silent.
why do we need to coddle you? nobody is forcing you into this thread.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)It has "Washington" in it!
Orrex
(63,818 posts)rock
(13,218 posts)but because a large population of native Americans do.
Response to CreekDog (Original post)
Proud Public Servant This message was self-deleted by its author.
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)Redskins has always been a derogatory term.
You can celebrate a culture through a team name, but this is not how you do it.
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)Poverty, unemployment, disease and death are some of the problems that should be higher on the list in regard to native people. None of those are caused by the name of a football team. I'm not at all saying it's a frivolous issue; people who are offended have every right to be offended and I include myself among them. I just see it as a "feel good" cause that doesn't ever address the more pressing needs.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)There are Native American peoples on reservations dying of hunger and disease and alcoholism
Does anyone seriously think they give two rat's asses about the name of a fucking football team?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)so i think your answer should be seen as biased.
and i should add that since you're even against asking people whether or not they're offended, you'd be against even asking tribal members if they're offended.
everyone should just accept for themselves that you're not offended and be quiet.